I have this weird problem: ISFJ women.

[cafe]

The weird thing is that from my perspective the ISFJs I love and my INTP hubby have a lot of good qualities in common. They are loyal, they are conscientious, they are steady, they are hard working, they may not be gushy, and might be a bit blunt, but they are very loving and affectionate in their own way. You can trust them to do what they say they will do.

But they are also very stubborn and a bit set in their ways and you just have to work with and around that. You throw them the bones they need and they aren't too hard to live with.

Every person has quirks you have to humor and every relationship takes some effort and compromise. Doesn't matter who you are with, they are going to do things that make you want to . . . do really bad things to them and you can rest assured there are going to be many, many times they will feel the same about you. You basically have to pick your poison. If you cannot live with the kinds of faults you are seeing in those you perceive to be ISFJs, try to find someone with similar good points and fewer of the flaws you dislike.

[FDG]

Originally Posted by mysavior

"...is to just go along with what her plans are"

This is usually the source of significant contention between myself and those I believe to be ISFJs: we have different plans, and mine seems clear cut and solid, so I have no intention of doing anything other than what I had in mind. When I'm in a relationship its tough to be stubborn, or do a 180 and become the little lap dog, but when I'm talking to a stranger who is getting on with the bullshit, I just can't stand it. What I'm saying is that, alot of ISFJ's make plan and just expect me to go along with it, "just because." I usually do my own thing, and as I said, the shit begins.

Have you ever gotten angry at them? Seems like most ISFJs - read, most of my girlfriends - need to know where the limit for what they can do is. So, they need to know what they can do that "doesn't make you angry". Something an ISFJ does make you angry? Get angry and tell them to never do that in your presence and to you, in a firm tone. Of course you can't do this for small, stupid things.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. I was on the train with my girlfriend, sitting in a slack position. In a bitchy tone - so, not jokingly - she told me "You always sit slack you'll look like an homeless person!". I told her "If you think this, get away from this seat, now, and leave this homeless person fucking alone and get yourself somebody else, and let me do whatever I want to do, okay?".

As far as plans go: I don't understand your problem. They are trying to incorporate you in their plans and want you to do things with them? That would sound nice to me. Are they trying to divert yours? Again, that would kind of sound nice provided that they are trying to incorporate me into the plan. Do they agree to a plan and then change their minds? This of course requires intervention, in the form of clearly stating that is not good (at first), if they do it twice, just get very angry, if they do it a third time, break up. Do you have your plans and want them to go along with it? Just be more stubborn than them and insist until they say yes. Over time, they'll learn that your plans are good, so they won't oppose to them anymore. "Working around it" and "adapting" doesn't work: they'll just tend to become bossier. Notice though, that I have seen some INTP-ISFJ couples working in a different way; INTPs seem to care less than ENTJs about this stuff and let the ISFJ get their way in most things.

As far as abilities go: there are different versions of ISFJs. The most shallow ones won't believe you have any abilities if you don't have a good outward appearance. The best ones won't really notice this. So I think it's truly just a matter of finding the right ones. If they're insecure, they will show off. If they are psychologically healthy, they won't feel the need to do so.

Notice though, that the two points I outlined above apply to the healthy ones too. I don't find them to be big defects in their overall personality, but when they appear the worst thing you can do is bottling up your feelings: they won't notice you're doing. I used to have this bad tendency to mask everything with a smile until I exploded, thinking that a person should understand by hirself when he/she was crossing the line of decency (read: calling me an "homeless person"), but it wasn't an effective strategy.

[wildcat]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

Just to drive this conversation back towards academics and bore everyone to tears (!), I will point out the function analysis here:

INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
ISFJ = Si + Fe + Ti + Ne

Do you see the startling coincidence?

Within every INTP (TiNe) lurks an undeveloped ISFJ (SiFe).
And vice versa.

I think this is part of the odd attraction/annoyance the two types find with each other. They share all FOUR of their functions, so they can mesh very well by design and also act as a catalyst for the other...

... but the other person's strengths are their personal weaknesses and are bound to cause a lot of sparks if both people believe themselves to have a corner of truth and maturity.

The dynamic for INFP + ISTJ work the same way.

Interesting.
Te/Fi however inverts Ti/Fe and vice versa. Corresponding INTP: 4/5 > 1/8 and vice versa.

Look at it from another viewpoint. A continuum follows simple arithmetics:

Should Ti be the 1st function Fe is the 8th function:
9-8=1

9+9+9+9=36
8+8+8+8=32

36-32 = 4 = 1+1+1+1

Hence in a four-letter system one letter consists of a number 8?
No.

On the other hand yes, if we follow the Jennifer path. Let us forget about extroversion then.

The dicrepancy between INTP and INTP is zero.
Eight funtions. Hence eight zeroes.

INTP: 00000000

INFP: 40044004

INFJ: 26222262

ISFJ: 66222266

Check:

12345678
52381674
38527416
78563412

Declension 32 > 24 > 16 > 8
as it should be.

Hence INTP
Ti Ne Ni Te Fi Se Si Fe

INFP
Fi Ne Ni Fe Ti Se Si Te

INFJ
Ni Fe Fi Ne Si Te Ti Se

ISFJ
Si Fe Fi Se Ni Te Ti Ne





The discrepancy = 4.
What is the significance of the 4?

OK. Let us start again.

INTP. Ti is 1. Hence Fe is 8.
Hence Te is 4 and Fi is 5.

Say INTP = 12345678.

The discrepancy of INTP to INTP = 00000000.

What is the relationship of the discrepancy and the number of order?

[MC2456]

Are any of the threads on ISFJ people are positive? I almost start feeling bad just being an ISFJ person.

Anyway, mysavior, if I remember correctly, INTP's don't really go well with ISFJ's. That's probably the cause of your struggle with ISFJ's. I can't really explain your prob with ISFJ women because I'm only a teen and I'm not experienced in dating and stuff. Here, I only can wish you the best of luck for your dating, and hope that the right person will come to you some day.

I think it's really too bad you have had to face people who are hypocritcal, nice on the outside, but totally shitty on the inside. But then, nobody's perfect.

Anyway, here's hoping you find some nice ISFJ friends and people!

God Bless,

MC

[Skittles]

mysavior, I understand your issue. My GF is a ISFJ woman, my best friend is an INTP. I met her through my best friend, they go to school together and they work well together.. if it's not on the same things. When they have to cooperate with each other on something, it becomes a reaaaal power struggle. They can't take classes together anymore because while my friend is interested in absorbing knowledge and sharing it with other people, so when she trys to "tutor" my GF she goes on the defensive. As soon as my GF noticed that she's climbing too high on the ladder, she starts getting EXTREMELY competitive with the INTP. And my friend absolutely hates competitiveness, doesn't see the point in it. She hates when people start one sided competitions with her.

I think her biggest peeve is being controlled, or the feeling of being controlled... which is basically all the ISFJ ever does. Plan on her own schedule, try to fit others into it.. when the INTP doesn't want to be fitted into anything, hates being fitted into things not of their own volition. And.. the whole being polite thing when actually looking down on someone, my friend absolutely HATES it, she views it lying to somebody's face basically. When you don't let people act like the intelligent agents she believes everyone to be, that's when she has serious issues.. and ISFJ's hit those issues quite often, it's in their nature sorta.. they different views on how to handle people I guess.

About the weird attraction thing, my friend also says she's attracted to my GF for some reason.. like, curiously drawn to her and wanting to know how she works or something. Yet whenever they get together it really is the same cycle. They're drawn to each other, INTP curious, ISFJ also interested in what they have to say, then something happens when they have to DO something serious together, they get really upset with each other, INTP attempts to confront ISFJ about it which ends up in ISFJ acting extremely polite (that's always her defense) and backing off, INTP hating them for backing off at the most important time, then they both need a period of time to cool off.

So yeah I would say that the two are best together when they are on equal footing.. when either one becomes a higher rank than the other things get really, really messy. I think they would be best as acquaintances or classmates yeah, sharing things together but should not try to push it on the other

[Athenian200]

Originally Posted by mysavior

the ISFJ's are fucking full of it. To be more specific, I begin to find myself in a power struggle with the ISFJ's as they begin to see that I am mentally apt. Its really weird. You think they have a good impression of you, and think you are fine, but based on this bullshit response I get down the road, its like I've been judged as the scrawny, awkward dumbass. Pretty much, I got taken for granted, or seen as just some dude, and so now when I start putting some skills on display, they (specifically the men, here) start getting nervous/worried/etc that this nobody is going to outshine them. This is so weird. What's going on here? Maybe they were expecting a timid pushover that they could string around their finger and do with as they please, but then when I begin to assert myself, they start feeling like idiots, and think, "who the fuck does this guy think he is?" Anyway, the worry begins to materialize in the form of some underhanded and aggressive actions to (as far as I can see) remind me, or make it clear to me who is in charge. Its like they start worrying that I'm going to hold something over them, or look down on them like they are irrelevant ("I'm not going to be some little shit nobody to this clown"). Now, its weird and unexpected and aggressive and all that, but its done with a smile, you know, so I cant call out "bitch" or "pussy," I just pretty much have to deal with it, or ignore it, and go on with life. Usually, I've ended up just fine, but these bids for superiority never seem to end. Everytime I meet up with these people again, its the same bullshit.

Well... they're not as smart as you, and they know it (tertiary Ti). They're worried that people will be impressed by your intelligence, and then you'll be ahead of them in the social hierarchy, and thus they'll have to defer to you. They don't want that, so they start showing other people how they're better than you, because they interpret your showing off your intelligence as an attempt to curry favor and get into people's good graces. So they want to stay one step ahead of you, so that they can feel like they're as good as you are even though they're not as intelligent. They think you looking down on them for being less intelligent, because they look down on people who are less intelligent (even though they don't say it).

They don't feel intimidated until you show intelligence, however, because they're probably more clever in the Ti sense than most people they encounter (other SJ's). So their moderate wit becomes their "added security" in maintaining their position even when unusual things start to happen, and they see you as a threat to it. They wouldn't admit to any of this, though, because it would make them look bad. Basically, underneath the kindness, there's an immature, competitive NT who can't stand that someone is smarter than them.

At least, that's what I picture when I try to see this from their perspective.

[Shimpei]

I rock.

[kelric]

Originally Posted by Athenian200

Well... they're not as smart as you, and they know it (tertiary Ti). They're worried that people will be impressed by your intelligence, and then you'll be ahead of them in the social hierarchy, and thus they'll have to defer to you.

Yikes. Not trying to be rude, Athenian, but this strikes me as just a bit of a stereotypical generalization, and a shortsighted one at that. Now I obviously don't know MySavior or his ISFJ acquaintances, and I'm sure he's a smart guy, but smarts don't really have much to do with type. Now I would believe that INTP's and ISFJ's can get on each others' nerves (my Mom is an ISFJ, so I know), and might naturally grate on each other and misinterpret each others' words and actions, but to simply pigeonhole all ISFJ's (or anyone else, based on type of anything else, for that matter) into such a nasty stereotype is counterproductive (at best). It seems to me that MySavior likes ISFJ's, but just has some trouble relating to them. To which the answer is, try to see things from their point of view, and understand that you may be misinterpreting what they say and do as much as they may misinterpret you (there are two of you involved, after all). It may just take some more effort.


Oh, and I don't really know Shimpei either, except from her posts quite a while ago, but if I recall, she does rock . Welcome back.

[Wolf]

ISFJs drive me mad, and I've explained why this is before... Still, I can't bring myself to hate them because they're so freaking selfless, helpful, and willing.

*shakes his fist at the sky*

[Athenian200]

Originally Posted by kelric

Yikes. Not trying to be rude, Athenian, but this strikes me as just a bit of a stereotypical generalization, and a shortsighted one at that. Now I obviously don't know MySavior or his ISFJ acquaintances, and I'm sure he's a smart guy, but smarts don't really have much to do with type. Now I would believe that INTP's and ISFJ's can get on each others' nerves (my Mom is an ISFJ, so I know), and might naturally grate on each other and misinterpret each others' words and actions, but to simply pigeonhole all ISFJ's (or anyone else, based on type of anything else, for that matter) into such a nasty stereotype is counterproductive (at best). It seems to me that MySavior likes ISFJ's, but just has some trouble relating to them. To which the answer is, try to see things from their point of view, and understand that you may be misinterpreting what they say and do as much as they may misinterpret you (there are two of you involved, after all). It may just take some more effort.

I'm not trying to apply anything to ISFJ's specifically, I'm saying that that could be what's going on, based on his description and the functional order. I don't know whether it is or isn't. I think there are just as many ISFJ's who would accept being less intelligent than an INTP more gracefully than the person in question did. Like I said, I believed (although I could have misinterpreted) that this person was still immature and competitive.

Also, I think that type is related to intelligence to some degree. For instance, I'm an INFJ. That means I'm dumber than all the NT's (which I understand and accept), as smart or slightly smarter than most other NF types, can be smarter or dumber than an SJ depending on their age, skill set, and subject. I am smarter than SP's excluding ISTP's, who are sometimes slighter smarter or dumber.