I throw down the gauntlet to the "real" geeks.

[Xander]

So all you Linux and BSD fans... this may ruffle feathers.

I've tried more flavours of Linux than I have skittles. Each seems to come polished or not in it's own little idiosyncratic world of techno babble. Each finds some drivers and not others and each seemingly insists on standing out from the crowd somehow.

Now I'm not exactly the worlds worst with technology so with hordes of people raving about the qualities of Linux and BSD over windows I thought I'd give it a try (again, for those who read my blog).

The crux of this meander in to my experiments is this, how the freaking quango did anyone ever quantify Linux or BSD as user friendly or indeed an OS than anyone other than a Linux/BSD developer should approach?

I am considering that I may have been windows spoiled but when that is the competition where two click in rapid succession will get you whatever you want (as compared to compiling code and actual text entry) what chance has this plucky little OS got?

In my research I did find that Mac's use an OS with similar roots to Linux. Now isn't that OS supposed to be easier than windows? So how in this quite bleaky, grey and concreted corner of earth did they get that when the rest are so dire in their GUI?

It's not just myself with this approach either, I work with those less computer literate than myself and all of them complain about things being hidden by the computer, how ream after ream of submenu and tick boxes mires them in useless options whilst carefully obfuscating the option wanted. If they saw Linux their brains would melt into goo. Steam would rise from their ears and their eyes would catch fire. Just installing it fills me with the kind of fear I hadn't felt since I'd first approached a PC.. Why can't it use the kind of drive labelling people recognise? Why won't it tell you what's going on or if you're about to screw windows up so far it can't tell if Bill Gates is a good man or a garden implement?

Anyhow, there's a poll with this minor tirade. Thought I'd open some flood gates to find out if Linux really should be kept to the programmers or if there's hope for those of us who consider it extreme to have to program an OS to do something.

yum update, clear all previous options selected and pick from list.

[spirilis]

Having used Linux for the past 12 years in one capacity or another, I will say that UNIX-based O/S's (excepting MacOS X in this statement) are more for "power users" than anything and when introducing them to a non-poweruser/non-programmer type of computer user, one should not expect anything but be happy if they like it.

MacOS X is more my idea of an "O/S to end all O/S's" for desktop users and with what little experience I've had with it I haven't felt like it's stifled me in any way, but again I really don't have much experience with it.

Windows is what it is. I don't use it because it's a "nice user interface", I use it because a lot of applications only work on it. Frankly I prefer my GNOME desktop environment in Ubuntu Linux with multiple virtual desktops and programmed hotkey sequences (using an app called 'keylaunch' for some of them).

I rock the best of both worlds, though -- Linux runs on the baremetal hardware, and Windows XP runs inside a VMware Virtual Machine, so I can use Windows apps when needed.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by spirilis

Having used Linux for the past 12 years in one capacity or another, I will say that UNIX-based O/S's (excepting MacOS X in this statement) are more for "power users" than anything and when introducing them to a non-poweruser/non-programmer type of computer user, one should not expect anything but be happy if they like it.

MacOS X is more my idea of an "O/S to end all O/S's" for desktop users and with what little experience I've had with it I haven't felt like it's stifled me in any way, but again I really don't have much experience with it.

Windows is what it is. I don't use it because it's a "nice user interface", I use it because a lot of applications only work on it. Frankly I prefer my GNOME desktop environment in Ubuntu Linux with multiple virtual desktops and programmed hotkey sequences (using an app called 'keylaunch' for some of them).

I rock the best of both worlds, though -- Linux runs on the baremetal hardware, and Windows XP runs inside a VMware Virtual Machine, so I can use Windows apps when needed.

That's what I mean though. I'm apt at configuring, bug hunting and such in windows but Linuz just blows me out of the water. There's no real attempt at bridging the whole human-computer gap from what I've seen (though I've just read an article on Mndriva which sounds promising).

Btw, do you have the obligatory beard?

[ygolo]

I've used both for years. My home system is now exclusively XP. But when I get enough cash that I consider discressionary, not earmarked for other things, my next will likely be some Linux variant. I may be dating myself, but the last time I used linux for my home system was a Mandrake install dual-booting with Windows 98. Before that I used slackware, and Windows 95.

I kind-of agree with you. I have lost my patience with sys-admin activities. I was never very good, I just followed directions and they generally worked. But when they don't work, I am not really sure how to debug (other than trying various versions of modules, and searching for FAQs, manuals and User Guides).

For school, I had to deal with Ubuntu in two different occasions.

Once was to attempt to set-up an Ubuntu Virtual Machine on my laptop, and I couldn't figure how to give the virtual machine acess to the network through my firewall. Time was an issue, so I had to gain access to the code for the class in a different way.

The second-time was when I was trying to get the CUDA SDK to run on Ubuntu runing on a project partner's Shuttle PC with an nVidia 8600 GTS card. Beyond the very simple examples in the SDK, I kept getting crashes--suspect something about configuring video memory. After fooling with the drivers (both CUDA versions and 8600 driver versions) for a while, I got into a state where the card was only being recognized a generic, and not even as an nVidia card!! Anyway, we were running out of time, and we could access to CUDA runs in a different way.

[spirilis]

Originally Posted by Xander

That's what I mean though. I'm apt at configuring, bug hunting and such in windows but Linuz just blows me out of the water. There's no real attempt at bridging the whole human-computer gap from what I've seen (though I've just read an article on Mndriva which sounds promising).

Btw, do you have the obligatory beard?

Yeah. I think "programmer power-user" is a better description here. Linux aims to be usable for those who need to use it. Windows aims to bridge the human-computer gap. I don't really see that as Linux's ultimate goal; I see Linux's goal as attempting to get the *most* out of computer hardware, to enable you to do the most possible. Part of that involves giving you the maximum breadth of tools to make use of the computer, and that's where Open Source Software shines (so many free programming languages and frameworks to use).

Whenever I hear about embedded Linux devices like cellphones or simplistic GUI-driven stuff like the eeePC I nod--THAT is more its fancy. Linux should be a state-of-the-art core underneath an otherwise polished and well-engineered interface. MacOS X reminds me of this; a UNIX core with something totally unrelated sitting on top.

I'm a sysadmin so UNIX-based O/S's give me the maximum power for doing what I do--I can write quick scripts to pull off crazy shit, test stuff, use OpenSSH's auto authentication system seamlessly with my scripts, set up automated port forwards to get around odd network/VPN setups, etc. which I can't do (or can't do EASILY, to be certain) in Windows.

Oh and yeah, I sure do have the obligatory beard. My NFP lady friends prefer it too

[Xander]

Originally Posted by ygolo

I've used both for years. My home system is now exclusively XP. But when I get enough cash that I consider discressionary, not earmarked for other things, my next will likely be some Linux variant. I may be dating myself, but the last time I used linux for my home system was a Mandrake install dual-booting with Windows 98. Before that I used slackware, and Windows 95.

I kind-of agree with you. I have lost my patience with sys-admin activities. I was never very good, I just followed directions and they generally worked. But when they don't work, I am not really sure how to debug (other than trying various versions of modules, and searching for FAQs, manuals and User Guides).

For school, I had to deal with Ubuntu in two different occasions.

Once was to attempt to set-up an Ubuntu Virtual Machine on my laptop, and I couldn't figure how to give the virtual machine acess to the network through my firewall. Time was an issue, so I had to gain access to the code for the class in a different way.

The second-time was when I was trying to get the CUDA SDK to run on Ubuntu runing on a project partner's Shuttle PC with an nVidia 8600 GTS card. Beyond the very simple examples in the SDK, I kept getting crashes--suspect something about configuring video memory. After fooling with the drivers (both CUDA versions and 8600 driver versions) for a while, I got into a state where the card was only being recognized a generic, and not even as an nVidia card!! Anyway, we were running out of time, and we could access to CUDA runs in a different way.

Oh the whole hardware does my sweede! I had a laptop (fairly recent but not cutting edge by a long chalk) and of all the things to not have a driver for the network card has to be the worst. That and I've yet to see Linux drive WiFi from the box. It's just a constant struggle.

I recall one guy saying that when he bought a new Mac he'd think "Wow, I can't wait to set this up and see what's new" as opposed to a Windows PC where it was more like "I'll get this set up and see what I have to fix". Myself, I find Linux to be in the latter camp.

Having said all of this though, I do take my hat off to those guys. It's not like they're earning millions from it.... perhaps that's where they're going wrong but still for free software it's not that bad.

[spirilis]

Originally Posted by Xander

Oh the whole hardware does my sweede! I had a laptop (fairly recent but not cutting edge by a long chalk) and of all the things to not have a driver for the network card has to be the worst. That and I've yet to see Linux drive WiFi from the box. It's just a constant struggle.

I recall one guy saying that when he bought a new Mac he'd think "Wow, I can't wait to set this up and see what's new" as opposed to a Windows PC where it was more like "I'll get this set up and see what I have to fix". Myself, I find Linux to be in the latter camp.

Having said all of this though, I do take my hat off to those guys. It's not like they're earning millions from it.... perhaps that's where they're going wrong but still for free software it's not that bad.

It is. Linux is always a small project to get going. But I keep reminding myself it's free, and I bear some responsibility for taking up the slack.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by spirilis

It is. Linux is always a small project to get going. But I keep reminding myself it's free, and I bear some responsibility for taking up the slack.

I guess if I hadn't gone out and bought Windows so it'd either be get it working or go spend money then I'd be more supportive but I have free choice at present between XP, XP64, Visa 64 or seven thousand shades of Linux. With my desktop it's XP64 no question but for the laptop I have more play, I don't need Direct X for example... I'm still however finding Vista a difficult one to turn down. I just wanted a cleaner running OS and as I only use it for internet and email really then Linux should have been a doddle... not so it appears.

I may try this new Mandriva 2008.1 or that PC-Linux OS.... then again I did tell my friend to hit me rather hard if I mentioned trying Linux again...

[spirilis]

Originally Posted by Xander

I guess if I hadn't gone out and bought Windows so it'd either be get it working or go spend money then I'd be more supportive but I have free choice at present between XP, XP64, Visa 64 or seven thousand shades of Linux. With my desktop it's XP64 no question but for the laptop I have more play, I don't need Direct X for example... I'm still however finding Vista a difficult one to turn down. I just wanted a cleaner running OS and as I only use it for internet and email really then Linux should have been a doddle... not so it appears.

I may try this new Mandriva 2008.1 or that PC-Linux OS.... then again I did tell my friend to hit me rather hard if I mentioned trying Linux again...

Yea this one guy at the local Linux users group raves about PCLinuxOS... never tried it myself. The new Ubuntu is okay but it's ticked me off for more than 1 reason (including the fact that my USB ports aren't working... I'm pretty sly with troubleshooting Linux but this has so far evaded me)

[Xander]

Originally Posted by spirilis

Yea this one guy at the local Linux users group raves about PCLinuxOS... never tried it myself. The new Ubuntu is okay but it's ticked me off for more than 1 reason (including the fact that my USB ports aren't working... I'm pretty sly with troubleshooting Linux but this has so far evaded me)

Is there a secret? Is there a shortcut or is the twelve year route a necessity?