For those in long term successful relationships?

[BerberElla]

Originally Posted by ptgatsby

I think there are deeper causes...

1) People inherently don't want to admit that their relationship could fail. This puts a strong bias into the "ignore the problem, we'll make it". It's only once it is too late, often with failure staring them in the face, that they realise that they ignored a great deal of signs/work that should of been done. Having to 'design' a relationship means you have to look at how it could fail well in advance. I find very few willing to face that.

Yes I do this, I think IIRC I read in a type descriptions that idealising and ignoring bad traits in order to maintain that ideal image is something that infp's do alot of.

2) I find that people also tend to dislike seeing things in systems, including themselves. Most still act from their own ("selfish") point of view. A good example is in sacrifices and compromises. In reality, both don't appeal to a system, they both trigger "I'm doing this for you" rather than "this is what is best for both". I think parents might understand this better - quite often two different approaches to raising kids end up working against each other. Rather than combine and determine the best parts of each, and have both people adopt them, the two parents will use only their approach. It applies in many ways, but the result is that a relationship can be stressed when both parties are "doing it for the other", because the implication is that the other better respect that they are. In many cases, it builds up a ton of resentment, point counting and other destructive behaviour.

I find myself doing this and when i was married I did it too, I felt that my way was better (I still believe that ) and refused to take on board anything he would suggest (many reasons). I find I have mellowed out now and am more prepared to allow him some say in how to parent, but only on minor things.

3) I positively hate the love conquers all attitude, but believe this may be most common attitude. All too often love is treated like a practical thing, something that holds the relationship together. It isn't. Love is why you are in a relationship, and it is why you work on the relationship, it's the value, the ouput and the meaning of it. To keep it, you must put in work. It doesn't matter if you think of it like growing a tree, nuturing it (I know, I'm NFing poorly, sorry ), like a business transaction (rate of return) or a physics problem (equal and opposite/transformative energy)... it comes down to the same thing. The phrase isn't "I love you so I will be with you forever", it's "I love you so I am willing to work to stay together".

Heh, as I said above I do this almost always. Don't get me wrong, I have tried to work through problems first, I have been pretty much as self sacrificing as you can get which totally destroyed any pride I had.

people say pride is a bad thing to have but I believe some pride should be maintained and if you find yourself having none because of all you have given in on in order to work out the problems, the resentment builds.

4) The last one is probably the worst. When you remove the romantic from most relationships, not much is left. There is rarely a reason to stay together. Unless your relationship was built from the start on mutual goals, agreements and directions, chances are that the individuals have grown apart. Having to suddenly go through the motions to "design" a relationship means you have to face that the 'romantic' side hid a lot of incompatibilities. Problem is, love tends to fade if you don't do it, and so either way you will come face to face with it.

I can handle romance fading if you are left with something deeper than flowers and poetry, I look forward to finding the person i can do that with one day.

Thanks for your common sense ptgatsby

[ptgatsby]

Originally Posted by BerberElla

I think your explanation of transparency over trust is definately worth trying, I usually do the "love conquers all" thing which doesn't actually work against relaity.

This was hard for me for a long time. My parents destroyed the trust in their relationship. For the longest time I felt it was one sided... but over time, I realised that both sides were to blame. A relationship is all about working together - how can one side be blameless when they aren't involved? Transparency is just a word that both are involved, able to see what is happening and so forth. You can't "trust" someone to make the right decisions for both of you - it's unfair and unwise. It sets both people up for failure. The one responsible might even be doing his best, but not understand, or have bad luck, or any number of reasons. The other won't know what is happening, will expect things that aren't grounded, and will blame the other no matter how hard they try.

Originally Posted by BerberElla

Yes I do this, I think IIRC I read in a type descriptions that idealising and ignoring bad traits in order to maintain that ideal image is something that infp's do alot of.

I wouldn't be surprised if INFPs tend to... uhh... become selectively biased on what they notice/get impacted on. Other types are quite good at ignoring problems outright, too. ISTPs and INTJs come to mind

People say pride is a bad thing to have but I believe some pride should be maintained and if you find yourself having none because of all you have given in on in order to work out the problems, the resentment builds.

I strongly agree. I think compromise is a very misused word in relationships. It shouldn't be both people sacrificing and resigning themselves to it - in game theory terms, it causes both people to resent each other, which is actually worse than one person being dominant!

I can handle romance fading if you are left with something deeper than flowers and poetry, I look forward to finding the person i can do that with one day.

We all have different needs. Mine are all about my future goals - travelling, retirement, projects... so my relationship is virtually a business arrangement ("with benefits" ). Not everyone would be happy with that, for sure. Some want more (different?) meaning to it, where I find the greatest meaning to come from enabling each other to achieve.

Thanks for your common sense ptgatsby

Sadly, if it was common, it'd be redundant for me to say it!

[ceecee]

Originally Posted by BerberElla

You would hate me then, I research and compare for ages and then just give up because I can't make a final decision.

Oh no. Failure is not an option. It's out there somewhere and he'll find it come hell or high water. And for a good price.

[heart]

I've been with an INFJ for 20 years. Shared values are the most sustaining part of my relationship. I can turn to him on most any topic and say "This is insane" and he will agree and we understand what the other means on these issues.

[batumi]

Going to the dark side together or in turns and still wanting to work it out, afterward.
Who was that famous researcher on relationships and marriages? The one who said
attempts at making up after fights were very significant?
I wish I could recall his name.....
But I think that is the magic ingredient. A willingness to keep returning to the table.

[Jack Flak]

Desmond Morris, maybe? I don't recall him discussing that subject specifically, though he may have.

[sarah]

Originally Posted by BerberElla

I'm curious to know what you think the magical ingrediant is that keeps your relationship/marriage ticking along and lasting?

Is your partner really that perfect or is it that you have learned to overlook/settle inspite of your partner doing many things or even a few things that annoy you or you dislike?

It just seems to me that all the people I know who are in long term relationships seem to be settling and putting up with behaviour that would drive me mad after a certain amount of time.

I mean I will try to ignore certain things, try and convince myself that they are not important, and that there are numerous good qualities to said person. However eventually those things I am ignoring will come to the surface and I will lose patience and the relationship will be over.

There are things I would break up over that others would find unbelievably ridiculous, it might not be for years but eventually I crack because I'm an idealist (of course lol) and my ideal isn't so ideal anymore.

So how do you do it? Are you settling or have you truly found the one?

Well, I don't know if being married for six and a half years counts yet, but I'd say that marital happiness has a lot to do with both parties making an effort to be thoughtful and considerate caretakers of the other's needs (in a psychological sense). But it only works if both people are doing this simultaneously.

Also, I think a shared sense of humor helps. Only fantasy spouses are always dressed sexily and are available whenever you are for lovemaking, always "low maintenance" (but somehow manage to wear fabulous clothing and look perfectly groomed), never leave messes anywhere, never forget important things, never say anything insensitive, never nook grubby while gardening/housecleaning/doing art projects, and never balk at doing boring chores. If both people can laugh at their mutual tendency to fail to live up to ideals, they end up having much more fun being married than those who are constantly complaining about their spouse not living up to their fantasies. Actually, if you think about it, the fun in a relationship begins where the fantasy leaves off, because then you know you're relating to a real person, not sombody's polished superficial self that they put on whenever they want to impress others.

Did I "settle"? Absolutely not. My husband's "perfect" in that I don't think his faults are the sort that I couldn't live with. On the other hand, he's definitely not a fantasy character, nor do I want him to be.

I hope you won't take any of what I've written negatively because it's not mean to be... but I'm thinking perhaps the best way you could answer your own question is to ask yourself if you honestly live up to your man's fantasies in every possible way, all the time, and if not, then do you really want to remedy all of what he'd label as your "flaws" in order to please him? If you'd rather not become his fantasy woman persona, then why would you want him to be your fantasy man persona?

Sarah
ISFP

[BerberElla]

Originally Posted by batumi

Going to the dark side together or in turns and still wanting to work it out, afterward.
Who was that famous researcher on relationships and marriages? The one who said
attempts at making up after fights were very significant?
I wish I could recall his name.....
But I think that is the magic ingredient. A willingness to keep returning to the table.

Seems to me that eventually the mere fact that we kept needing to return to the table would be enough to kill it for me, especially if it's over the same thing.

[BerberElla]

Originally Posted by sarah

I hope you won't take any of what I've written negatively because it's not mean to be... but I'm thinking perhaps the best way you could answer your own question is to ask yourself if you honestly live up to your man's fantasies in every possible way, all the time, and if not, then do you really want to remedy all of what he'd label as your "flaws" in order to please him? If you'd rather not become his fantasy woman persona, then why would you want him to be your fantasy man persona?

Sarah
ISFP

No don't worry, I didn't see it in a negative light, I know where you're coming from.

I honestly don't want someone to live up to my fantasies, for a start they couldn't because one they wouldn't have real wings, and two they wouldn't have any magical powers , they also wouldn't have a pet dragon but I can live without those things.

It's about not being my worst nightmare. It's about a willingness to accommodate each others needs. If I need for instance him to pee into the toilet and not all over the seat, wouldn't he do it if he had respect for me and wanted to live in harmony with me? Or at least be seen to make an actual effort?

I'm not actually in a relationship anymore, and the marriage didn't break down over such trivial concerns such as the peeing all over the toilet wall, or any of the small things that drive me nuts but I put up with and settled for, and learnt to accept, it broke down for much more serious reasons of which I genuinelly don't feel I was to blame.

I just wanted to know how people deal with the small things, I mean what if you are the only one accepting flaws, and he is demanding you change into his fantasy ideal yet failing to live up to yours in everyway?

This question was prompted by watching my friend going through her relationship and those around me, all of them complaining constantly to me over many little things, and I wanted to hear how other people come to terms with them.

I think that's why I like gatsby's answer the best because it's less about "I love so much that those things are insignificant" because these women do love or so they profess, but more about what steps need to be taken in order to prevent those things arising which I see as being too late for some and something that needs to be implemented now for others.

Prevention being better than the cure and all. Plus it goes on the list of things I need to be aware of before I start a serious relationship ever again.

[FDG]

Originally Posted by ptgatsby

I have found that the absolute best tool, with that in mind, is to apply game theory to the relationship.

This is definitely, definitely the worst relationship advice. It's akin to relationship terrorism. Game-theory as applied to relationships is an attempt of strong thinking types to understand an inherently feeling mechanism by using their thinking part; it would just be better to let feeling types give the advice and stick game theory to its proper place.