For those in long term successful relationships?

[BryNTP]

Originally Posted by cafe

I'll echo Jennifer here: stay away from people who engage in deal-breaking behaviors then apply some humility and a sense of humor to the situation.

Could you expand on this? Were you saying to 1. stay away from deal-breakers and then 2. apply some sense of humor to it

OR

1. stay away from deal-breakers that apply a sense of humor to it later?

[cafe]

Originally Posted by BryNTP

Could you expand on this? Were you saying to 1. stay away from deal-breakers and then 2. apply some sense of humor to it

OR

1. stay away from deal-breakers that apply a sense of humor to it later?

If someone is a possessor of deal-breakers, don't make a deal with them.

Once you've found someone who is not the possessor of deal-breakers, use your sense of humor to surmount the small piddly stuff that you're going to have to deal with no matter who you are with.

Originally Posted by BerberElla

Like chewing with their mouth open, not putting the seat up or missing the seat and not cleaning up after themselves, slurping their hot drinks, being tight fisted and resembling scrooge, being such a light sleeper that I'm too nervous to sleep just incase I sleep talk, being too affectionate, not being affectionate enough, tidy but aware that men can tidy up too or am I being over the top?

Maybe a little over the top there unless you are, to quote the wise words of Weird Al, a world famous billionaire Bikini supermodel astrophysicist.

Originally Posted by BerberElla

Oh I do, but then it annoys me that anything I could do could be annoying to them because if they loved me then they wouldn't find me annoying, they would find every little thing I do perfect in it's own way. The mere fact that I'm finding them annoying might be because I don't love them as much as I should do? Or again am I being a fruitloop?

Anybody you live with is going to annoy the heck out of you from time to time. I mean, don't your kids annoy you on occasion? Does that mean you don't love them?

Originally Posted by BerberElla

It's ok, I know I'm being irrational deep down but I can't help seeing cracks in places that other people would plaster and sand down as good as new.

I think it probably comes down to priorities. To me there are majors and their are minors. I can overlook most of the minors if the majors are good.

Originally Posted by BerberElla

Tried that with the toilet thing, but if I'm in a hurry, and believe me after having kids I am in a hurry when I need to go, stopping to clean up his mess just infuriates me.

Separate bathrooms?

[ptgatsby]

Originally Posted by BerberElla

I'm curious to know what you think the magical ingrediant is that keeps your relationship/marriage ticking along and lasting?

There are a lot of things out there that are important... Respect, communication, intimacy... but everything that you need is conditional upon using it positively, which is where so many relationships fail.

For example, communication is critical, but it isn't communication itself that determines success, but the positive application. Talking about how each person feels in the relationship, where they want to go, what they expect, the money situation (... ...) is completely different than polishing off insults and playing little power games with words.

I have found that the absolute best tool, with that in mind, is to apply game theory to the relationship. You want to maximise utility and must be willing to take steps to prevent defection. This means that both people must be transparent - money needs to be transparent, so that defection (outside spending) is nearly impossible. Trust is good, but trust is too easily betrayed in a single moment of weakness - and we are all weak at some point. Trust can unwind in an instant, and transparency, by design, helps prevent that. It applies from everything from money, cheating, work, expectations, purchases...

It also works well for getting maximum utility. By moving the argument away from you two and trying to find a mutual solution on tangible metrics, most conflicts can be resolved in a way that is less personal, more effective and trust building. It does, however, require the couple to always be willing to abide by the guidelines set out. It takes time to develop the communication framework to allow this.

Is your partner really that perfect or is it that you have learned to overlook/settle inspite of your partner doing many things or even a few things that annoy you or you dislike?

My partner is as perfect as I am, which is to say, not at all. Each person have different abilities and preferences, some of which come out in negative ways, and some which come out in positive ways. There is no perfect, only balance, and we won't agree on what is balanced.

Tolerate the bad, embrace the good and respect the whole.

It just seems to me that all the people I know who are in long term relationships seem to be settling and putting up with behaviour that would drive me mad after a certain amount of time.

That essentially sums up what is required. Reasonable judgment over what is acceptable and what is not is a critical component in surviving a relationship.

So how do you do it? Are you settling or have you truly found the one?

Everyone settles, by definition. The only 'one' there is is the one you chose, and how much of "the one" is "the one" really depends on the dynamics of the relationship and those involved.

Of course, making a mate selection based on your needs from the start is a good idea But even the right person becomes wrong without the right dynamics.

[INTJMom]

pt:
Awesome Post!

(though maybe too much like engineering for some non-T minds )

[ptgatsby]

Originally Posted by INTJMom

(though maybe too much like engineering for some non-T minds )

Point taken

All I'm really saying is that you need to craft a relationship over time. The tools you use mold the relationship, but like physical tools, you can also damage what you are trying to build if you don't use them positively.

It all stems from not being able to control a relationship. It's not about more effort - more effort can work against you. Everyone is setting up tools (ie: "systems"/"dynamics") - how communication works, how you deal with transparency, goal setting...

It's how they are used that defines the relationship. All of us will use them as weapons against out mates at some point... and most of us will ignore using them at all.

[cafe]

Originally Posted by INTJMom

pt:
Awesome Post!

(though maybe too much like engineering for some non-T minds )

Not to me. So many people will invest a great deal of thought and study into careers, purchases, etc, but so few seem to have any kind of theory or plan for relationships, especially romantic ones. I guess because it's not romantic?

I've actually had a T tell me the way I went about things in my relationship with my husband was 'too calculated' for them or something like that.

We kind of like the 'love bank' idea and I think of most things in terms of Return On Investment, though not in terms of financial investment so much (not that that's a bad idea.)

[ptgatsby]

Originally Posted by cafe

I guess because it's not romantic?

I think there are deeper causes...

1) People inherently don't want to admit that their relationship could fail. This puts a strong bias into the "ignore the problem, we'll make it". It's only once it is too late, often with failure staring them in the face, that they realise that they ignored a great deal of signs/work that should of been done. Having to 'design' a relationship means you have to look at how it could fail well in advance. I find very few willing to face that.

2) I find that people also tend to dislike seeing things in systems, including themselves. Most still act from their own ("selfish") point of view. A good example is in sacrifices and compromises. In reality, both don't appeal to a system, they both trigger "I'm doing this for you" rather than "this is what is best for both". I think parents might understand this better - quite often two different approaches to raising kids end up working against each other. Rather than combine and determine the best parts of each, and have both people adopt them, the two parents will use only their approach. It applies in many ways, but the result is that a relationship can be stressed when both parties are "doing it for the other", because the implication is that the other better respect that they are. In many cases, it builds up a ton of resentment, point counting and other destructive behaviour.

3) I positively hate the love conquers all attitude, but believe this may be most common attitude. All too often love is treated like a practical thing, something that holds the relationship together. It isn't. Love is why you are in a relationship, and it is why you work on the relationship, it's the value, the ouput and the meaning of it. To keep it, you must put in work. It doesn't matter if you think of it like growing a tree, nuturing it (I know, I'm NFing poorly, sorry ), like a business transaction (rate of return) or a physics problem (equal and opposite/transformative energy)... it comes down to the same thing. The phrase isn't "I love you so I will be with you forever", it's "I love you so I am willing to work to stay together".

4) The last one is probably the worst. When you remove the romantic from most relationships, not much is left. There is rarely a reason to stay together. Unless your relationship was built from the start on mutual goals, agreements and directions, chances are that the individuals have grown apart. Having to suddenly go through the motions to "design" a relationship means you have to face that the 'romantic' side hid a lot of incompatibilities. Problem is, love tends to fade if you don't do it, and so either way you will come face to face with it.


There is lots of room for how to work with a relationship, but I think those four are the ones that I've noticed the most. Each couple needs to determine their own system - I can't think in terms of love bank, but I do believe it is a good method, especially for parents.

[BerberElla]

Originally Posted by cafe

Anybody you live with is going to annoy the heck out of you from time to time. I mean, don't your kids annoy you on occasion? Does that mean you don't love them?

They do but not in the same way because children are children. But a grown man that I simply felt some love for before he started failing my ideal mate, I find harder to fight the resentment and that's how the love fades.

I know it's wrong, infact maybe the resnetment comes from forgiving a big deal breaker but not really forgetting, so the little things become the icing on the really crummy cake.

Separate bathrooms?

Bigger bank balance? Anyway I'm not in a relationship now but when I have been I have found myself behaving in the manner I'm describing.

[BerberElla]

Originally Posted by ptgatsby

There are a lot of things out there that are important... Respect, communication, intimacy... but everything that you need is conditional upon using it positively, which is where so many relationships fail.

For example, communication is critical, but it isn't communication itself that determines success, but the positive application. Talking about how each person feels in the relationship, where they want to go, what they expect, the money situation (... ...) is completely different than polishing off insults and playing little power games with words.

I have found that the absolute best tool, with that in mind, is to apply game theory to the relationship. You want to maximise utility and must be willing to take steps to prevent defection. This means that both people must be transparent - money needs to be transparent, so that defection (outside spending) is nearly impossible. Trust is good, but trust is too easily betrayed in a single moment of weakness - and we are all weak at some point. Trust can unwind in an instant, and transparency, by design, helps prevent that. It applies from everything from money, cheating, work, expectations, purchases...

It also works well for getting maximum utility. By moving the argument away from you two and trying to find a mutual solution on tangible metrics, most conflicts can be resolved in a way that is less personal, more effective and trust building. It does, however, require the couple to always be willing to abide by the guidelines set out. It takes time to develop the communication framework to allow this.



My partner is as perfect as I am, which is to say, not at all. Each person have different abilities and preferences, some of which come out in negative ways, and some which come out in positive ways. There is no perfect, only balance, and we won't agree on what is balanced.

Tolerate the bad, embrace the good and respect the whole.



That essentially sums up what is required. Reasonable judgment over what is acceptable and what is not is a critical component in surviving a relationship.



Everyone settles, by definition. The only 'one' there is is the one you chose, and how much of "the one" is "the one" really depends on the dynamics of the relationship and those involved.

Of course, making a mate selection based on your needs from the start is a good idea But even the right person becomes wrong without the right dynamics.

Fantastic post, I have missed your sensible attitude

I think your explanation of transparency over trust is definately worth trying, I usually do the "love conquers all" thing which doesn't actually work against relaity.

[BerberElla]

Originally Posted by INTJMom

pt:
Awesome Post!

(though maybe too much like engineering for some non-T minds )

Oddly I have always found ptgatsby really easy to understand when he is giving advice because he explains things in terms I can understand.

Is he a secret F or am I a secret T just waiting to bust out of this emotional shell?