Death: What's the problem?

[bluemonday]

Originally Posted by Xander

Oay serious question, what's the whole problem with death?

I keep seeing people claiming that a person cannot understand what happens at death and there's an intrinsic need for an afterlife for people's psychological wellbeing.. why?

I've always thought the same thing, when you're dead you're dead. It stops. Nothing happens. A total absence of you. You're not there, you're dead.

What's the problem with that?

the kind of argument only some who's not in touch with their feeling side could make.

i quite agree, btw.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

Actually, I'd cry because it hurts, not because I'd "want them back."
It's okay to express emotion, without it being any sort of demand or intellectual statement. It just "is."

I'd cry because I loved them, and now they're gone.

And then I'd get over it and move on with my life.

Yeah well still locked in the whole 'why?' loop on that one.

As far as I've got with my reckoning, regretting their loss is far too close to wishing to rescind it and that's a bad thing.

Again, I don't necessarily see that. I think fear of death is just part of being human and fearing pain, loss, disability, lack of control, whatever. Why deny it? Why pretend we're invulnerable? It's a lie.

Why try to be just when we know we're capricious? It's a target, not a milestone.

I do agree that the most spiritual/strong people are those who learn to accept their death -- the fact that everything that has a beginning has an end, that there's a time for it all and then a gracefulness in allowing things to move on -- and thus use that bookend to frame their lives now even more brilliantly.

Death defines life. (see my tag: "Only in silence the word; only in dark the light; only in dying life; bright the hawk's flight on the empty sky.")

You run from death? You'll be running from life too.

Precisely. It just leaves me in awe how life, death and afterlife can always be discussed without anyone daring to raise the possibility (and it is a strong one as far as we can tell) that you just plain stop existing as an individual.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by bluemonday

the kind of argument only some who's not in touch with their feeling side could make.

i quite agree, btw.

I actually usually get typed closer to INFP so perhaps I'm just damaged goods

[bluemonday]

Originally Posted by Xander

I actually usually get typed closer to INFP so perhaps I'm just damaged goods

on the positive side, it is a selfless argument...
so many people think the world will stop turning when they pass on, their inability to detach makes it inconceivable that the world might actually be a better place without them.

this thread makes me feel good about myself
(i'm such a psycho)

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by Xander

Yeah well still locked in the whole 'why?' loop on that one.

Well, to me, it's because I find value in the experience.

I think one of my driving questions in life is "What does it mean to be human?" so that I can truly understand the big picture and live the most fulfilling life.

I also am finding increasing value in accepting circumstances placed on me, then finding out how to live within them in the fullest way.

Pain is not something to be feared, it is to be experienced and learned from.

Also, it's part of "living in the moment" and being alive, to me; too much rationalization pulls us further and further away from Now.

We stop living and instead merely think about living.

That seems foolish to me, intellectually -- we are robbing ourselves.

As far as I've got with my reckoning, regretting their loss is far too close to wishing to rescind it and that's a bad thing.

I guess. I can't speak for you. For me, it's not that at all.

But I also have a large artistic/aesthetic side, so experiencing sensations and feelings is an act in itself, it doesn't mean I want to change anything.

Precisely. It just leaves me in awe how life, death and afterlife can always be discussed without anyone daring to raise the possibility (and it is a strong one as far as we can tell) that you just plain stop existing as an individual.

As I've gotten older, I had to face that more and more.

For a long time I thought life was utterly pointless unless we were eternal and did not understand the other.

I don't know what changed but in the last few years it did. Now it doesn't matter to me whether I live or die beyond this life, it simply makes my life here more precious and I want to live more fully... regardless of the risk. It gives my choices meaning, I think, and left me completely responsible for them.

(That's why I go by the "Christian agnostic/existentialist" label now.)

[Uberfuhrer]

The problem with death is that not everyone gets to take others down with them.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

Well, to me, it's because I find value in the experience.

I think one of my driving questions in life is "What does it mean to be human?" so that I can truly understand the big picture and live the most fulfilling life.

I never even understood why people asked that question nevermind any of the answers. What does it mean to be a dog? Well it means you're a dog... that's kind of cause and effect there. All else is individual in my opinion. The only reason for non biological correlation is cumulative chance in my eyes.

I also am finding increasing value in accepting circumstances placed on me, then finding out how to live within them in the fullest way.

Working with engineers.... gimmie a break... it's my job for goodness sake!!!

Pain is not something to be feared, it is to be experienced and learned from.

Also, it's part of "living in the moment" and being alive, to me; too much rationalization pulls us further and further away from Now.

We stop living and instead merely think about living.

What happened to the t-shirt with "been there, done that" on it? How many times do you need to feel something before it becomes and exercise in redundancy?

Personally I prefer to encounter emotion, not prod it with a taser to see what it does.

That seems foolish to me, intellectually -- we are robbing ourselves.

Precisely. However if we end up languishing in some euphoric state then we are wasting the time we could have spent thinking... balance in all things.

I guess. I can't speak for you. For me, it's not that at all.

But I also have a large artistic/aesthetic side, so experiencing sensations and feelings is an act in itself, it doesn't mean I want to change anything.

Hmm... yeah I guess that's true. I think I see it as more of a slippery slope and so I am cautious about stepping upon it less I hit the bottom before I can catch my grip.

As I've gotten older, I had to face that more and more.

*mental pictures of iron lung, wheelchair, IV*
I'm sure you tend to feel older and younger than those digits which you celebrate suggest. No one is their age really.

For a long time I thought life was utterly pointless unless we were eternal and did not understand the other.

I don't know what changed but in the last few years it did. Now it doesn't matter to me whether I live or die beyond this life, it simply makes my life here more precious and I want to live more fully... regardless of the risk. It gives my choices meaning, I think, and left me completely responsible for them.

(That's why I go by the "Christian agnostic/existentialist" label now.)

Errm may I just suggest you go by the label "complicated". Oddly enough it's less complicated.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer

The problem with death is that not everyone gets to take others down with them.

Are you perhaps offering your services?

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by Xander

I never even understood why people asked that question nevermind any of the answers. What does it mean to be a dog? Well it means you're a dog... that's kind of cause and effect there. All else is individual in my opinion.

Xander, if that was the case, there'd be no such thing as art.
Obviously there are patterns within human experience that can be tapped into and used as shorthand in communication.
(Case closed, to me.)

What happened to the t-shirt with "been there, done that" on it? How many times do you need to feel something before it becomes and exercise in redundancy?

I don't know, but it sounds like you don't live within your experiences, you're still keeping them at arm's length.

Precisely. However if we end up languishing in some euphoric state then we are wasting the time we could have spent thinking... balance in all things.

Well, I agree -- I can't afford a perpetual opiate high.

Consider me talking from the perspective of a lifelong detachment junkie who finally decided to engage and sees the point of it now.

Hmm... yeah I guess that's true. I think I see it as more of a slippery slope and so I am cautious about stepping upon it less I hit the bottom before I can catch my grip.

It's a rush, hon.

I was terrified for so long to give myself over to it, due to anxiety and loss of control, but I found I enjoyed my life much more when I did. (So it worked for me.)

Errm may I just suggest you go by the label "complicated". Oddly enough it's less complicated.

Hmm. Well, that's true. I'm definitely complicated.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

Xander, if that was the case, there'd be no such thing as art.

There's such a thing as art? Oh you mean the petrified sheep thing... nah..

Obviously there are patterns within human experience that can be tapped into and used as shorthand in communication.
(Case closed, to me.)

As there is in all species. No one tries to make themselves into a goldfish to increase their wisdom.

I don't know, but it sounds like you don't live within your experiences, you're still keeping them at arm's length.

Doubtful. I do a bit of both mostly. I don't like to become embroiled but I also don't like getting my ass frozen off cause I'm miles away from the group hug.

Well, I agree -- I can't afford a perpetual opiate high.

Consider me talking from the perspective of a lifelong detachment junkie who finally decided to engage and sees the point of it now.

See I don't understand the position of a detachment junkie so the whole revelation of engaging is lost on me I'm afraid. I suffer no sudden "hit" of emotion. I experience no sudden feeling of oneness... just the same old me with new toys (hopefully).

It's a rush, hon.

Heights are a rush when you have vertigo... that's not a good thing to motivate people with.

I was terrified for so long to give myself over to it, due to anxiety and loss of control, but I found I enjoyed my life much more when I did. (So it worked for me.)

I refuse to give up.. that's one thing that is me.. you may have seen that in our time online

I'm not sure about this refusing to move though. I tend to go with the flow so I don't drown trying to stand resolute telling the sea to retreat from my presence but similarly I'm resistant to the whole idea that humans can breathe water... no they can... really. I'm afraid I'm skeptical of that point of view.

Hmm. Well, that's true. I'm definitely complicated.

See... a much simpler definition... simply complicated