Is it worse for women?

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by nolla

....For you to be desirable, you need someone to desire for you. So, that would be a man, wouldn't it?

Dammit.

I hate validation needs.

Maybe the passive man-hunting is so passive that it is hard to realize?

Are you saying the only way to know for sure that one is worthy of love is to be loved by another?

Originally Posted by Mondo

...It's amazing that women and men alike seem to fall in love with those who will treat them the worst. It seems so counter-intuitive.

It's because the people who treat them the worst long-term are the ones who are fulfilling what they need (however misguided) in the moment, and maybe vice versa.

The same guy I mentioned before was actually a really nice guy -- thoughtful, smart, mostly open-minded, I enjoyed talk to him for long periods of time on the phone. When I saw him, though, the same niceness made him as passive as hell and unwilling to take any risks or show active interest. He even bitched about his last gf, who dumped him to go run to the bars every weekend with more Type A guys he apparently despised... but after spending the evening with him, I was left understanding why she might have found that more desirable.

It's a real crap shoot, and assertiveness is a double-edged sort. You want someone who is sensitive and non-domineering yet assertive and shows initiative and takes some risks. Not an easy combination to find (and especially in the young adult crowd including the sorority girls you mentioned, where everyone is still trying to figure out who they are and come into their own).

[Jack Flak]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

Are you saying the only way to know for sure that one is worthy of love is to be loved by another?

It's scientifically inconclusive up to that point, aye?

[bluemonday]

Originally Posted by ajblaise

Girls, can you settle this?: Do more girls dress and try to look good for other girls or for guys?

Do women try to look attractive for men? Gee, I dunno, do bears sh*t in the woods?

I would like to add that I think it's very unfair that women are so much better-looking than men. A few mutant specimens aside, men are a bloody ugly lot.

This actually means that not only do us girls have to put up with less attractive partners (due to ancestral selection along non-aesthetic lines) but we also tend to have more superficial partners - double whammy.

It must be good to be a lesbian.....or a peahen....

Originally Posted by Jack Flak

It's scientifically inconclusive up to that point, aye?

balderdash and piffle! you can be loved by another and be entirely undeserving. No-one "deserves" love. Just as no-one deserves wealth. It’s a lottery out there.

[cascademn]

Originally Posted by nolla

Here we come back to the make-up and plastics. So, it isn't all woman thing ("I want to look good for myself") but more like a silent competition of women to get the men? Again a big simplification, but... does most of the low self-esteem among women come from this feeling of not being "beautiful enough" compared to the others?

Um...apparently I'm the only one on here with self-esteem issues, but this statement certainly applies to me.

I don't think I try to 'look good' for other women. I don't really care what other women think of me. I want to 'look good' for men.

Perhaps I don't think my personality has ever really been appreciated, or recognized, or sought out, in the past, so maybe that's why I put so much emphasis (admittedly wrongly, I know it's an esteem thing but I can't really get rid of it) on my appearance, and like Jennifer wrote earlier, when I feel ugly, I feel completely undesirable and like no one in the world will ever want me.

I'm never going to get plastic surgery, because it just doesn't seem 'right' to me and I want to be liked for who I am. However, at the same time, through growing up and in all sorts of venues (work and extracurricular) I always hear guys talking about 'hot girls', and contrasting them to 'but-her-faces', and I have a hard time really believing that guys don't care that much about a woman's looks (at least in this thread, the guys' responses have been such that a girls appearance isn't that important, and the woman just needs to get more self esteem rather than focus on her appearance. But that's kinda a lie in my opinion. Attraction IS important, and men want to be with attractive women).

Random comment -- say you have a woman in her 20's or 30's with thinning hair, and by her late 30's she very well may need a wig. What say you, men? Is that something a woman can easily slough off and still find tons of suitors who really want her? Obviously looks aren't ultimately important when it comes to a friendship, but I think it's bull that it's crocked up to a simple esteem issue when the reality seems to point towards attraction/desirability being a key factor in the initial pairing and romance. Obviously longevity is going to need a lot more than that though.

[Jack Flak]

Originally Posted by bluemonday

balderdash and piffle! you can be loved by another and be entirely undeserving. No-one "deserves" love. Just as no-one deserves wealth. It’s a lottery out there.

'Tis but logic, friend. If you are loved, you have proved yourself lovable. My line: "You're adorable...Know how I know?" "How?" "Cause I adore you!"

[bluemonday]

Originally Posted by cascademn

say you have a woman in her 20's or 30's with thinning hair, and by her late 30's she very well may need a wig. What say you, men? Is that something a woman can easily slough off

[bluemonday]

Originally Posted by Jack Flak

'Tis but logic, friend. If you are loved, you have proved yourself lovable.

lovable yes
deserving of love, not necessarily

bluemonday 1
Jack Flak 0

[Jack Flak]

No you FAIL. Deserve wasn't in the question. Besides, "deserve" is an irrelevant concept, always.

[bluemonday]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

Are you saying the only way to know for sure that one is [b]worthy[\b] of love is to be loved by another?

Originally Posted by Jack Flak

It's scientifically inconclusive up to that point, aye?

[Jack Flak]

Where is the word deserve? I stand by my win.