Is it worse for women?

[edel weiss]

Originally Posted by nolla

I agree, they shouldn't. But most of the women I know do make up because it is expected of them. But then again, I wear trousers and not skirt because that is expected of me.

Same here. I wouldn't mind wearing skirts sometimes, but it is expected that I wear pants, so I stick to that. I guess that's not much better than women who feel they have to dress up because that's what they're supposed to do.

[placebo]

Originally Posted by nolla

I was talking / debating with a (male) friend about plastic surgery. My view was that there is something "off" about it. I couldn't quite explain it, though. Anyways, he pointed out that women have harder time with the expectations in this time and culture. In his opinion this is what makes women to go under the knife. He says it is woman against woman rivalry (not filling expectations of men). If you are pretty they envy you and you are glad for it, if you are not pretty, you are the jealous one. So, the reason for the knife would be to boost your self-confidence. I cannot entirely disagree on this one.

So, how do you girls see this? Does it seem like men have easier lives with this kind of expectations? Me, I don't personally have any desire to "build up my muscles" or anything. I don't care. I find it hard to believe it would be much different (psychologically) if we talk about women.

(Oh, I'm sorry if this is wrong forum to discuss this. I couldn't figure out a better one)

My first reaction:
I feel like that's an excuse and women only do that to themselves, being so attentive and taken by society's expectations and what they feel others expect them to be. Women don't have it harder in THIS day and age. WOMEN HAVEN'T HAD IT BETTER. Men have just as many expectations to live up to. Men 'should be' macho, strong, reliable, stable, etc etc etc, just as much as women 'should be' pretty, sexy, sociable, etc etc etc. I feel that men and women have equally difficult problems in this day and age, and it doesn't matter what gender you are, it matters how well you as a person let yourself be affected by the messages around you. Women should be proud that they are WOMEN. That they can reproduce, create babies, that we are rooted to LIFE itself. Men should be proud of whatever they should be proud of too. Men are typically one rung up the ladder ahead of women, just because of how most of society places them, but they still have their problems. Lots of men have reaaaaal mental problems, are violent, lose their sense of reality more than women do, etc.

Women are super-sexualized in western society, and that's the only reason why there is this type of pointless expectation. I personally feel that if people rely so strongly on some fabricated ideal of 'prettiness' to measure up a person, then their opinion isn't really worth much anyway. Unless you look unbelievably deformed or something, going under the knife doesn't seem necessary. I tell that to my sister who wants to get a nose job and wants to get rid of a few hardly noticeable freckles on her face that, but she doesn't see it the same way, and I don't quite get it.

[EJCC]

Originally Posted by Cindy

To be an influential part of a group?
Beauty gives power over men and women alike.
Looking good gives the illusion that you are also strong and healthy.

Has anyone seen the movie "American Psycho"? I would compare the female need to impress their fellow women to the scene in which Bateman and his coworkers compare business cards. (obviously it isn't that extreme, but still. you see my point.) I'm not sure what the point of it all is, but it's human nature, I suppose.

And it's not like guys aren't insecure, too. I'm sure their pressure to be muscular is equal to our need to be thin. And at least overweight women can be perceived as beautiful in the mainstream media (see America Ferrera, Nikki Blonsky, Queen Latifah, etc. etc.). I can't remember the last time when a potbellied man was considered handsome. Or a bald one. How sad!

[sarah]

Originally Posted by nolla

I think we can very narrow those traits down to being "successful" and something that the other women want. For example: Why would a young woman have a relationship with older man that has a lot of money. He has poor genes (older you get the less you have quality sperm) and the ability to make money is surely not up to genes anyways. There is (from evolution perspective) no reason for the girl to be with the man. (besides, old people are wrinkled ) So the man is successful, and that is the only thing that matters?

Heh -- but since when have all people been thinking only of making babies when looking for a mate to settle down with? I realize some of our reasons for choosing a particular person are unconscious, but we do have a lot of control over most of what we choose to find attractive, don't you think?

Besides, it doesn't seem to me that all young people want to hurry up and settle down and reproduce like crazy these days. Sure, they have serial dating relationships, but education and career often come first. I know a lot of people in their 30s who are finally deciding that now they want to get married -- and NOT in order to start a family -- they just want a permanent life partner. It seems to me that by the time you're 30+ years old, unless parenthood is a must for you (and for many people it isn't), you're not just looking for someone who looks like he/she might have ideal genetic material. I can't believe that anyone here would choose a person who embodies genetic desirability over one with whom they share compatible lifestyles, taste, opinions, etc.....?

As for age and wrinkles and why a younger woman would marry an older man? Um, it's not always for money and social status. I've always thought a man who possesses emotional maturity was priceless, and many more older men tend to know who they are, what they want, and how to compensate for their faults a lot more than the hoardes of young guys who are idealistically looking for perfection in a mate (so as to compensate for all their imperfections, which they don't like to think about let alone label as such). As for visible signs of aging, well, we all get there eventually. My husband's 25 years older than I am (we married when I was 31 and he was 56), and I'm not spooked by any of his signs of aging, especially since I'm getting gray hair and crows feet myself.

Sarah
ISFP