Civilized Disconnect - Page 2

Grayscale · 09-12-2008, 07:31 PM

for me, it's not that i feel disconnected with nature, it's that when i come back i feel disconnected with society. everything seems to take on a different light for a few days, a lot of things that i thought nothing of before become incredibly foreign, mainly people and their behaviors.

alcea rosea · 09-25-2008, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVO

Modern Western civilization ignores nature.

I agree.
I personally love the nature but when the nature comes and eats my dog, I hate it.

So nature - stay away from my front yard.

yugyug · 09-29-2008, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVO

Modern Western civilization ignores nature. But does it rely on a nature? Do we derive essential resources from nature?

Everything humanity uses/has is derived from the earth and its living residents, beast & plant alike. The further back you get in the production line, the closer you are to nature because you're the one gleaning the ingredients from the earth or its residents. The guy digging the ore is closer in proximity to nature than the gal tightening the bolt in the car factory, for instance. However, this doesn't mean that the ore miner is definitely "close to nature" in the sense I think you mean. He may be touching the earth, but he may not be any more "aware of nature" than the car factory gal who goes on long hikes in the forest whenever she gets a chance.

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Has consumerism replaced resourcefulness and thoughtful dependence? Has technology replaced wonder?

I think the onset of the industrial age caused an increase in the number of people who were distanced from interaction with nature/wilderness. At the same time, I think that trend is slowly reversing again because of technological advancements. As things become more automated, people are gaining more free time to travel and "go back to nature." Because various belief systems (Native American, New Age, Green movement) are gaining popularity, because of shows like Survivor and Man vs Wild, and because of a gradual change in curriculum in our schools, more people are taking treks into the wilderness. And, chances are, while they are there, a percentage of them will be filled with wonder while experiencing nature. And, they may go back and talk to others -- such as you do -- and those others may then be inspired to go see for themselves.

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What are the short and long-term personal and societal implications of this disconnect?

I think, on a personal level, the disconnect's impact depends upon the personality and upbringing of the individual. If you grew up loving to camp and hike then, in adulthood, you work overtime and weekends in a metropolis, you are likely going to miss being in nature. Maybe to the point of depression. If you grew up in the city and rarely or never ventured beyond it, you are likely quite content to stay "disconnected." That isn't a bad thing for them; it is where they choose to be in order to make them the happiest. The conflict arises when the nature lover looks down on the city lover because they are "disconnected" or the city lover encroaches upon nature in order to expand the size of their city.

Again, though, you may be talking about something deeper in the psychology of a society. Are there more crimes perpetrated by those who are "disconnected" than those who are tuned to nature? Are depression rates higher among the "disconnected?" I haven't looked up such stats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by colmena

The woman who showed me around had a son called Michael. Michael has grown up seeing most of his food grown from the earth. He understands that nature is doing all the work; from the man that sow's the seed, to the earth, sun, and rain that helps to grow it.

I believe this distinction between food in plastic packing is substantial to peoples' philosophies. I don't think technology will ever be as powerful as nature, but which one we are mindful of will make a great deal of difference to our happiness.

I think it is a bit biased to say that being aware of nature's power & ability to care for our needs makes a difference in our happiness. I've had the same bias. When I stepped outside that belief, I realized that a multitude are genuinely happy while thinking milk is born in a carton.

Maybe their belief affects your happiness or mine because we think they are being ignorant or naive or shorting themselves by not getting back to nature. Yet, they are content. I am happier when I'm in the garden or hiking in the mountains, but I know that not everyone gets their kicks out of such things. To them, dirt under their nails and slapping mosquitoes isn't thrilling, and I can understand that. It's the way they're wired.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grayscale

for me, it's not that i feel disconnected with nature, it's that when i come back i feel disconnected with society. everything seems to take on a different light for a few days, a lot of things that i thought nothing of before become incredibly foreign, mainly people and their behaviors.

* Nods in full agreement. * This is how I feel, too.

colmena · 09-29-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yugyug

I think it is a bit biased to say that being aware of nature's power & ability to care for our needs makes a difference in our happiness. I've had the same bias. When I stepped outside that belief, I realized that a multitude are genuinely happy while thinking milk is born in a carton.

Maybe their belief affects your happiness or mine because we think they are being ignorant or naive or shorting themselves by not getting back to nature. Yet, they are content. I am happier when I'm in the garden or hiking in the mountains, but I know that not everyone gets their kicks out of such things. To them, dirt under their nails and slapping mosquitoes isn't thrilling, and I can understand that. It's the way they're wired.

Absolutely, but environment plays a large part in how one is wired. And I suspect having it in childhood development is going to be the best chance of it sticking. Strong roots etc. Sort of like rigging the pack to better your chances.

Anyway, this awareness breeds respect, and respect breeds virtuous mean. I postulate that shielding peoples' eyes will -- and does -- have the adverse effect.

yugyug · 10-01-2008, 05:08 AM

I agree.

Bella · 10-01-2008, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVO

Good question!

1. Watching a squirrel (or any other animal) provides a perspective on how to be alert and aware of everything going on around you while still being able to carry out essential tasks--making awareness a habit rather than something that needs to be concentrated on. I can still zone-out intuitively and think beyond the simple tasks at hand if awareness is a habit just like driving a car.

2. Life is simple and easy when the priorities are clear. This applies to everyday modern life as well as to someone lost in the wilderness. Lost humans have been known to run or walk in circles (whose direction is generally determined by handedness!) in a panic until finally brought down by injury, hypothermia, or dehydration. A squirrel would go find someplace warm, build a nest, stay put, and sleep.

3. Evasion and camouflage. It's all about being a practical illusionist. Be where I've used the "run around the same tree a few times, then make a well-timed 'jump' to another one unexpectedly" trick more than a few times against human "predators." The hard part of this is trying to stop from laughing out loud when you hear the pursuer say, "Where the f--- did he go?!"

4. How to keep warm in cold weather. Wear clothing which sheds water, insulates when wet, and dries quickly. Sleep in a bundle of fluffed-up, high-loft material for insulation (leaves, pine needles, grass, fur, cattail down). For the squirrel, the clothing comes naturally. For humans, it means wearing synthetic fabrics, wool, or animal fur.

5. How not to cross a busy road.

6. "Protect your nuts." (LOL!)

The definition of natural I use is black and white, and avoids value judgments: Anything created by humans which could not have been also created by another existing, Earth-originating [LOL] lifeform is not natural. But, the less refined, less structured, and the more natural material that is used, the more closely something resembles being natural. Human-created reservoirs are not natural, but they closely resemble natural lakes and ponds created by beavers and geological and hydrological processes.

Amish culture takes avoidance of modern technology to the extreme in an attempt to avoid the disconnect between human life and nature (and God). I think a balanced perspective is probably somewhere between the Amish and the modern approach, but probably a little closer to the Amish because they at least recognize the significance of the disconnect and the importance of avoiding it. The problem is that they seem to take this to a legalistic extreme, and often ignore the benefits of technological progress. Even this is a sweeping generalization of the Amish, as each ordnung has different guidelines.

'shrooms are bad for you my darling. Live above the influence....

bluemonday · 10-07-2008, 12:44 PM

Hello World of JAVOs blog!

I had a huge post prepared but Firefox has stolen it so this will have to do (not typing all that again!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVO

Modern Western civilization ignores nature.

It might be better for nature if it did. Rather than all the plundering and destroying type stuff that goes on?

Other thoughts:

Sometimes Greed is Good ?

Sometimes nature is unnatural: Death to American Invading Squirrels

Sometimes nature isn't black and white We need a Big Bad Wolf

Sometimes disconnecting is a good idea The Cairngorm Poo Project !

I think the Sami have the right idea with their Reindeer herding and their nomadic tendencies. I'd love to joik in a yurt! It sounds yurty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAVO

Has technology replaced wonder?

I wonder about technology....

P.S. You look like...mmmmm....Bear Grylls...

P.P.S GINGER NUTS RULE.

TPol · 11-29-2008, 12:03 AM

I thought I'd mention to you that I found a book at the library. It is called, "Last Child in the Woods" by Richard Louv. Subtitle: "Saving Our Children from Nature-Deficit Disorder." ISBN-13: 978-1-56512-522-3. I haven't started reading it yet. I'll let you know what I think.

Back cover says, "In his groundbreaking work about the staggering divide between children and the outdoors, journalist and child advocate Richard Louv directly links the absence of nature in the lives of today's wired generation to some of the most disturbing childhood trends: the rise in obesity, attention disorders, and depression. This is the first book to bring together a body of research indicating that direct exposure to nature is essential for healthy childhood development and for the physical and emotional health of children and adults. More than just raising an alarm, Louv offers practical solutions to heal the broken bond."

Inside cover leaf gives a Walt Whitman quote and then a quote from a kid:

"There was a child went forth every day,
And the first object he look'd upon, that object he became,
And that object became part of him for the day or a certain part of the day,
Or for many years or stretching cycles of years.

"The early lilacs became part of this child,
And grass and white and red morning glories, and white and red clover,
and the song of the phoebe-bird,
And the Third-month lambs and the sow's pink-faint litter,
and the mare's foal and the cow's calf..."
-- Walt Whitman

"I like to play indoors better 'cause that's where all the electrical outlets are."
-- A fourth-grader in San Diego.

Chukamok · 11-29-2008, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU

I'm green at heart and I dig what you're saying, but the twelve year old in my brain is screaming "Haaa! Lookin4theBestNU, that's so f*cking funny".

Please, continue.

JAVO · 12-26-2008, 12:33 AM

I'm finally getting around to something which resembles a reply to this thread... so many interesting thoughts here. I'll reply to a few, and wisecrack to a few others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcea rosea

I agree.
I personally love the nature but when the nature comes and eats my dog, I hate it.

So nature - stay away from my front yard.

You NF's just need everything to be perfect don't you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by yugyug

The guy digging the ore is closer in proximity to nature than the gal tightening the bolt in the car factory, for instance. However, this doesn't mean that the ore miner is definitely "close to nature" in the sense I think you mean. He may be touching the earth, but he may not be any more "aware of nature" than the car factory gal who goes on long hikes in the forest whenever she gets a chance.

Yes, but the guy eating sushi straight from the river is much closer to nature than the guy in New York city eating his business lunch at a sushi bar.

If we had the choice of where to hunt or what to feed our farm animals, would we really pump them full of hormones and antibiotics?

Quote:

Originally Posted by yugyug

I think the onset of the industrial age caused an increase in the number of people who were distanced from interaction with nature/wilderness. At the same time, I think that trend is slowly reversing again because of technological advancements. As things become more automated, people are gaining more free time to travel and "go back to nature." Because various belief systems (Native American, New Age, Green movement) are gaining popularity, because of shows like Survivor and Man vs Wild, and because of a gradual change in curriculum in our schools, more people are taking treks into the wilderness. And, chances are, while they are there, a percentage of them will be filled with wonder while experiencing nature. And, they may go back and talk to others -- such as you do -- and those others may then be inspired to go see for themselves.

Very true. I hope so!

Quote:

Originally Posted by yugyug

I think, on a personal level, the disconnect's impact depends upon the personality and upbringing of the individual.

I agree. Most aren't aware of their unawareness enough to correct it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yugyug

Again, though, you may be talking about something deeper in the psychology of a society. Are there more crimes perpetrated by those who are "disconnected" than those who are tuned to nature? Are depression rates higher among the "disconnected?" I haven't looked up such stats.

The answer is probably self-evident for environmental crimes, and environmentally-adverse actions which should be crimes.

I think (Ne without Ti data) that if people respected nature more, they would respect each other more. Maybe if more experienced the natural high of hiking or other exercise outdoors, they would be less inclined to seek a high which impacts society negatively in other ways?

Quote:

Originally Posted by yugyug

I think it is a bit biased to say that being aware of nature's power & ability to care for our needs makes a difference in our happiness. I've had the same bias. When I stepped outside that belief, I realized that a multitude are genuinely happy while thinking milk is born in a carton.

That's a great point, and I agree. I also think that society is heavily biased against people ever becoming aware of nature enough to make their own determination. From a behavioristic psychology perspective, there are too many rewards in place for them to exercise their free will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bella

'shrooms are bad for you my darling. Live above the influence....

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