Types and Revenge

[Natrushka]

This is a topic that's interested me for a while now. Who engages in revenge (Machiavellian-type revenge!)? Js vs Ps, Is vs Es? Is there a type more adept at it?

Revenge takes planning and follow through; not to be confused with crimes of passion. xxTJ?

What do you think? Have you ever engaged in a little Just Desserts?

[Jennifer]

Well... revenge can come from all different sorts of incidents. So I'm not sure if we can slap type labels on them. I think different types are less liable to react to certain experiences, if that makes sense.

I think control types (J) do often hate losing control and are tempted to regain it and retaliate upon the offender, to make sure it doesn't happen again. Yet when certain P types become angry (I am thinking ExFP for example), they are very prone to wanting to "get back" at someone or just vent all over them; I know my son gets REALLY upset and wants to express his anger physically and vocally (he will run in his room, slam the door, and then we hear him screaming unintelligible commentary about the person he's mad at).

I wanted to categorize by J/P and can't, because then I think of my father who is ESTP... and yet for HIM, he will get revenge on people who hurt him years before. The wound festers in him, and he'll let it drive all further interactions with those people, and he'll go out of his way to needle them. So P is obviously not a clear-cut indicator of short-term versus long-term grudges.

As another example, ISFJ women take things very personally and can be prone to petty acts of revenge -- whether it's spreading gossip, or undermining someone who has really betrayed/hurt them, or just throwing out things belonging to the offender and other forms of passive-aggression (and occasional aggression -- like Mary Winkler finally allowing her anger to build up enough to shoot her husband in the back last year). But I do not think we can easily categorize out from that...

I know I am not much for revenge as an INTP with strong Feeling sides and intuition. It just feels so... petty and transient, not something of long-term importance. I'd much rather fix and maintain the connection, than damage it further. I can laugh at petty acts of revenge because I still understand what would piss someone off and anticipate it, but... as far as me doing it, it just seems so counter-productive and unnecessary. So I don't usually go that way.

But I've seen other "harder" INTP types who have been slighted seemingly go after the people who have offended them, usually trying to undermine them or their authority. So INTP is not a fail-safe either. (Usually having their intellectual sensibilities or autonomy violated consistently by an authority, or having too many emotional demands relentlessly placed on them by someone they cannot separate from, is what drives an INTP to revenge-style behavior.)

I think each type has certain things that violate them and might drive the retaliation/revenge instinct... and they then tend to gravitate towards certain forms of revenge.

[Natrushka]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

As another example, ISFJ women take things very personally and can be prone to petty acts of revenge -- whether it's spreading gossip, or undermining someone who has really betrayed/hurt them, or just throwing out things belonging to the offender

Two of my friends are ISFJs - they're both copyeditors, too - they've keyed cars. That seems like a crime of passion to me - not a calculated, planned out, months or years later, revenge.

Interesting about your father. Would he actually plan something out? I understand being upset and angry for years and letting that influence your behaviour toward someone. Would he, for example, upon finding out they were cheating on him, crack their passwords weeks later, lockup all their email accounts, change their passwords and post unflattering pictures of them at the online dating services where they were caught cheating on you?

[Nighthawk]

I used to be hell-bent on revenge towards people who had "wronged" me. I'd plan, and sometimes carry out, detailed schemes that would "punish" the person involved. This pretty much culminated when I arranged to have a former boss thrown out of the army for wrongly implicating me in a fratricide. Since that incident however, I have been more live-and-let-live. Haven't had the urge for revenge of any type in almost 2 decades ... except for that one time my step-daughter forged a bunch of my checks.

I can second the revenge of passion tendencies in my ISFJ wife. She once threw out my entire computer system (which I retrieved from the trash bin) when she discovered I'd been chatting with somebody online.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by Natrushka

Two of my friends are ISFJs - they're both copyeditors, too - they've keyed cars. That seems like a crime of passion to me - not a calculated, planned out, months or years later, revenge.

Yes, exactly. The bitterness usually sits there waiting unless dealt with, but they are prone to just doing things. (My wife has expressed desire to smash my computer with a hammer, for example, and actually does mean it. She just knows it's petty, and that then I would waste money buying a new one... and she's so thrifty that she doesn't want to waste the money for a moment of pleasure. )

lol, nighthawk, I read your post AFTER I wrote this... yes, it looks like you've been there too.

Interesting about your father. Would he actually plan something out? I understand being upset and angry for years and letting that influence your behaviour toward someone. Would he, for example, upon finding out they were cheating on him, crack their passwords weeks later, lockup all their email accounts, change their passwords and post unflattering pictures of them at the online dating services where they were caught cheating on you?

No, that's too much discipline for him. Instead, he'd would just look for ways to badmouth (the E part of him) or undermine them in real-time (the opportunistic P part of him). He's not much for long-term planning, he just tries to avenge himself when the opportunity arises and leave a real stink in their nostrils.

[Uberfuhrer]

Revenge is an illogical response based upon personal values, so I think it has connections with Introverted Feeling (ISFP or INFP).

INTJs could be susceptible to revenge because they have a tertiary Fi function.

Coupled with Introverted Intuition's inclination for deep fantasy and Extraverted Thinking's need for control, I think this combination provides a very cold and calculating brand of revenge. INTJs have a reasonably underdeveloped Fi function, which can create a passionate hate under this sort of stress, followed by an unpredictable and violent "lashing out" Se function if stress continues.

INFJs, however, are much less vengeful, since their auxiliary Fe is very compassionate and isn't really inclined to hate. Their Ni function will be inclined to fantasize about it, but Fe has a desire to be compassionate. Hence, they are much less likely to act out on revenge.

And in the case of ISTJs and INTJs, despite being only one function difference, I think the ISTJ would be much less likely to seek a passionate revenge. They would probably use their Si to see how they dealt with angry conflicts in the past. ISTJs are probably quite stable when it comes to revenge.

In the case of INTPs, they'll analyze (Ti) possibilities (Ne) to get even, but the sensible tertiary (Si) would likely calm them down, followed by the Fe that would put things in perspective and be less inclined to want conflict. ISTPs, and especially ESTPs, however, will be very quick to react because of a well-developed Se function which can react with intensity.

Extraverted SPs would probably have a very impulsive reaction. ESTPs would revenge, but after the fact, they'll analyze the situation (Ti), followed by a compassionate regret (Fe). ESFPs would react depending on their values, they would first lash out physically (Se) but then it becomes tricky, where they think according to their moral values (Fi), which can vary. If their moral values are to seek revenge, then they can be dangerous, but if their moral values are to forgive, then they'd be more apologetic.

Though if an ISFP follows positive moral values (forgiveness) with their dominant Fi then the lashing out of the Se would not get a chance.

The thing about the INTJ, though, is that their auxiliary Te is probably less concerned with morality and more with control. The INTJ's moral sense (Fi) is generally weak and advocates itself in a more primitive, emotionally-driven fashion. Coupled with developed mind for innovation could make INTJ's vengeful side most sadistic.

Although the ENTJ would probably lash out more quickly, since Se is tertiary and more developed. For them, morality comes last, so they'd first organize a plan of action and talk about their visionary revenge scheme. It would be applied with less dwelling on the situation.

[proteanmix]

Depends on how strongly I feel that I was wronged.

I think I'm more prone to finding out what the person holds most dear and screwing it up. Financially and professionally seems to be the most effective. I wouldn't want to do anything physical to anyone, although Carrie Underwood's "Before he Cheats" is appealing.

The most I've done so far is tell people off and write angry letters. Not very vengeful revenge.

[Natrushka]

Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer

And in the case of ISTJs and INTJs, despite being only one function difference, I think the ISTJ would be much less likely to seek a passionate revenge. They would probably use their Si to see how they dealt with angry conflicts in the past. ISTJs are probably quite stable when it comes to revenge.

The one I live with is. He's much more level headed than I am when it comes to things that upset us deeply.

The thing about the INTJ, though, is that their auxiliary Te is probably less concerned with morality and more with control. The INTJ's moral sense (Fi) is generally weak and advocates itself in a more primitive, emotionally-driven fashion. Coupled with developed mind for innovation could make INTJ's vengeful side most sadistic.

For me it has been about Setting Things Right. Pretty egotiscial, ay?

[Economica]

Originally Posted by Natrushka

This is a topic that's interested me for a while now. Who engages in revenge (Machiavellian-type revenge!)? Js vs Ps, Is vs Es? Is there a type more adept at it?

Revenge takes planning and follow through; not to be confused with crimes of passion. xxTJ?

What do you think? Have you ever engaged in a little Just Desserts?

I'm a firm believer in punishing bad behavior instead of turning the other cheek. I do it for my own (long-term) sake and for the perpetrator's. I also do it because punishment alleviates my feelings of anger (i.e. for revenge).

However, the will to punish is just one factor that enters into my cost-benefit analysis when deciding how to act/react, and I restrain myself whenever retaliation would be overall counterproductive. I am tolerant of my boss's bad behavior, for instance. But whenever I ignore bad behavior, I have to go release the negative energy in a productive way so I don't end up passing it on to someone undeserving (such as the people I love).

The controlled and rational practice of punishment with calm certainty seems very TJ to me.

[Lookin4theBestNU]

I can come up with deliciously complicated schemes for revenge when circumstances are right. They generally take the form of more passive-aggressive acts instead of outright fits of anger. I have also had the urge to break my husbands computer into little pieces but only a few times. In Fe modes of anger I have vividly imagined broken shards of glass and what it would look like to see the letters on the ground from the smashed keyboard. NF enthusiasm+anger is freaky for me. The good news is that something holds me back and I don't get angry often. I am a wussy I suppose . I will try to remove myself from the situation, look at objectively and do my best not to build resentments. I refuse to let others ever have that kind of control over me is the rationale.