Keirsey's Guardians Outdated?

[pure_mercury]

Originally Posted by nolla

Yeah, why not. The first goths obviously had to be artisans (or derailed idealists) but when any movement gets enough momentum, the guardians start to join in.

And take over. The Guardian Goth would be the one to scout the best graveyards to hang out in, and would research the cheapest place to buy clove cigarettes.

[nolla]

[Haphazard]

Guardians are the most elastic and conductive of all the types. Kiersey painted them as stiff and unbending, but that's only because the culture around them at the time wasn't conductive to change them. Kiersey pretty much neglected to mention what really drove 'Guardian' types and instead explained the trappings -- as he did with all the rest of the types -- and it really makes all of them look quite shallow.

Yes, there have to be guardian goths. There are so many goths that it'd be impossible not to have at least a few.

[proteanmix]

Originally Posted by nolla

But, if we think back, it could be that the things you find worthy are the things (unconsciously) set by your parents and childhood friends. This would mean that they have "shaped" the person you are and your "mission" is to take their values to the next generation (stubbornly, if the need be). Basicly it leads to a form of democracy as the child obeys the strong and group has power. So most of the children of a generation will have vaguely similar values.

Who isn't shaped and influenced by the culture they grew up in?

[pure_mercury]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Who isn't shaped and influenced by the culture they grew up in?

Yeah, I am sure I was. I wouldn't claim otherwise. I do think that my values are NOT simple parroting of those around me growing up, though.

[nolla]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Who isn't shaped and influenced by the culture they grew up in?

I wasn't saying that anyone would be immune to enculturalisation. The way I see it, the guardians must be the ones who keep the norm longer. They have less need to break the norm, since one of their major motivation is to pass the culture. In the long run the guardians are the most mutable, but in a single lifetime probably not. I see the other types described by Keirsey in a more timeless fashion.

[nolla]

Originally Posted by Haphazard

Kiersey painted them as stiff and unbending, but that's only because the culture around them at the time wasn't conductive to change them.

Yes, this is what I mean. The guardians take the flavour of their surrounding, no matter what time or place, so it makes them most mutable. It just takes some time for them to suck it in.

[Blackwater]

i happen to frequent the european goth scene myself, and yes we have guardian goths although i would not say that the majority of them fall into the clichees. if they harbour keirseyesque SJ-values, they are not overt about it. the majority of them tend to keep silent about morality and some of them are in fact very artistic in their fashion expression.

so basically, though a few teenagers play the "gother than thou" game, seeking to make goth its own pop, there are no overt references to traditional family valus from them.

this all supports the notion that SJ naturally seek to echo the dominant cultural values of their community.

[pure_mercury]

Originally Posted by Blackwater

i happen to frequent the european goth scene myself, and yes we have guardian goths although i would not say that the majority of them fall into the clichees. if they harbour keirseyesque SJ-values, they are not overt about it. the majority of them tend to keep silent about morality and some of them are in fact very artistic in their fashion expression.

so basically, though a few teenagers play the "gother than thou" game, seeking to make goth its own pop, there are no overt references to traditional family valus from them.

this all supports the notion that SJ naturally seek to echo the dominant cultural values of their community.

Since when are Guardians not fashionable, or not amoral? I consider myself the first, and I've see the second in action (the ESFJ as "used car salesman").

[Haphazard]

I think we can accurately say this:

SJs are the tofu of all the types.