ENFP / ENTP Superficiality

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by Santtu

ENTP are often big thinkers with a social comedian persona, or a variation of the theme. Does anyone find it a bit surprising that there's more than 1 side to a person?

As I've seen it, ENXPs can be quite similar. It's usual to see emotional, people-loving technical ENTPs as well as ENFPs. After all, their T and F functions are in secondary and tertiary positions, just places and intro/extroversion switched.

Yeah, ENXP's play may be the most superficial kind there is.. it's publicly so, it's an act.. entertainment.. it's a parody on what's superficial. It may be over-the-top. ENTP's are masters of systems, they're confident with extraversion, whimsical, spontaneous, so it's natural they choose a superficial act as their "funny mode" behaviour.

I think ENFP's are closer to their core identity in their "people" mode, funny random things (Ne) depending on what people feel (secondary Fi), giving less reason to blame them about superficiality. ENTP's public funny act works more with Ne Fe, of which Fe is superficial, and it's use is somewhat planned with Ti.

ENTP's core is not superficial in the least, it's quite ok contemplating with charts, books and all the esoteric information for as long as it needs, no matter how difficult or obscure it would be - as long as there's a reason to do it, and for ENTP, there often is.

Then again, ENFP's core (Ne Fi) is a bit more people-dependent than that of ENTP. Whereas both can do their information-gathering via books and other media, T-like experimentation is less reliant on people than experimenting with F. So, ENFP probably feels more reason to spend time with people, giving rise to suspicions it's them that's actually the more superficial one.

So all in all, they're both very much ideas persons, with their interests having a wide range from profound to the superficial - I'd say more so than all other types.

So now all feeling is superficial. Please dude, this is armchair theorizing and bulshit.

Yea, hello again Blackwater, I never saw you by the time I got to that other thread about ENFPs. So everyone you call an ENFP is superficial (in your extremely biased perspective). I say 'everyone you call an ENFP', because I really think that, judging by your previous comments, you don't know nearly enough about type to say 'I know an ____ who...' and have me take it seriously.
Now seriously, what is this thread about? I already had to read about your stupid beef with supposed ENFP's, and now you want to prop up your house of cards on some 'single standard' arguement. Well, it doesn't work my friend because no type expert says that ENTP's are superficial. I don't think ENTPs are superficial. Wherever that came from (your ass?) please just get rid of it.

[substitute]

I don't get why people are getting ratty about this thread. To me the OP seemed to be saying: "many people [not necessarily experts or anything, I've just heard it bandied about a lot] say that ENTP's are superficial. But ENTP's have a lot in common with ENFP's and the things ENTP's do that people wrongly label superficial, ENFP's do as well. So how come ENTP's get all this misunderstanding, whilst ENFP's apparently don't?"

And the simple answer would be: better social skills, they put fewer people's backs up!

But whatever tones of anti-ENFP judgement people have picked up on must've flown over my head... cos I just ain't seein' any... Badly worded posts, yeah, sure, but not ENFP-hate...

[Uberfuhrer]

Superficiality is one of those words that has a thousand different meanings. I think ENTP, however, ranks pretty high on the list. N and S are superficial in their own ways. Ne suggests impractical ideas and never follows through, because it's in its nature to be constantly on the lookout for newness. The ESxP, however, wants new experiences, and so can seem aimless.

I think superficiality is mainly traits of ExxP.

[Santtu]

Originally Posted by Gabe

So now all feeling is superficial. Please dude, this is armchair theorizing and bulshit.

You're drawing too wild conclusions from that post of mine. Why don't you take a chill pill and not imagine the worst of anything?

I already said ENFP's "people act" is closer to their core than that of ENTP's, because it's Fe (ENTP's tertiary) that's often accused of being superficial, although opinions vary. ENFP on the other hand does not have Fe in the standard model, negating any claims of superficiality.

Reading other points you'd also find that I wasn't armchair theorizing in favor of ENFP's superficiality at all, I was just doing a comparison and finding both ENXP's both deep and capable of showing the signs of superficiality.

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by Santtu

You're drawing too wild conclusions from that post of mine. Why don't you take a chill pill and not imagine the worst of anything?

This treat is on me.

I'm going nuts because Blackwater appears to be at it again.

Now (adressing everyone), from what I remember, the thread "ENFX hypocracy" was plenty mean and discriminating, so I don't see why to claim that ENFPS didn't get some kind of 'proportional punishment' (seriously, I find this threads to be bizarre).

In the end, it's not very important. Drawing conclusions about type from posts on these previous threads is problematic and probably wrong.

Again, I don't think ENTPs are superficial. Jungian John Beebe is an ENTP.

[Santtu]

Originally Posted by Gabe

I wasn't talking about your post. I was talking about blackwater. I'm going nuts because Blackwater appears to be at it again.

I'm again shamed for having my first message quoted before I got to correct it

Yep I don't think we're superficial, we just do good PR, or at least try to

[Blackwater]

Oh Gabe

In Vietnam they have this custom that if a person can present his case calmly then anybody who cannot respond to that case in the same calm manner has shamed himself. Sometimes, I really wish that this was the case in the West as well. If it was, then I wouldn't need to take the time to bitch-slap in into your place.

Originally Posted by Gabe

So everyone you call an ENFP is superficial

You're wrong there. What I wrote was that "I know quite a few ENFPs IRL and almost all of them have this tendency" . But of course the details of a particular post do have a tendency to blur out if your approach to reading is a little... superficial

Originally Posted by Gabe

I say 'everyone you call an ENFP', because I really think that, judging by your previous comments, you don't know nearly enough about type to say 'I know an ____ who...' and have me take it seriously.

See the funny thing about psychology is that there's rarely any final truth. As such, there's nothing I can say to make your definitively believe me. But it's funny how you appear to be completely unmoved by the other posters who seem to know exactly what I am talking about. If it's merely my judgment that's off, then why are half the posters in this thread offering similar stories?

Originally Posted by Gabe

you want to prop up your house of cards on some 'single standard' arguement. Well, it doesn't work my friend because no type expert says that ENTP's are superficial.

"Naturally, this attitude [Ne] holds great dangers, for all to easily, the intuitive may fritter away his life on things and people, spreading about him an abundance of life which others life and not he himself. If only he could stay put, he would reap the fruits of his labour; but always he must be running after a new possiblity, quitting his newly planted fields while other gather in the harvest. In the end, he goes away empty." Jung: Psychological Types - Revised by F.C. Hull, Princeton Press - p. 369

Originally Posted by Gabe

Wherever that came from (your ass?) please just get rid of it.

It came from taking in data and interpreting it. Believe it or not, people sometimes do that when they're not being superficial.

Also, your immature ad hominem attacks seem to pretty much confirm what Substitute said:

Originally Posted by Substitute

He [an ENFP] uses quite random (apparently) and circular arguments, using value judgements and stuff to present the alternatives as: 1 - do as I say and everyone will be happy and you'll be a good person or 2 - don't do as I say, but then you'll be mean and selfish and nobody will like you.

So consider yourself bitch-slapped by Blackwater, your new bitch-master

[CaptainChick]

Originally Posted by Gabe

So now all feeling is superficial. Please dude, this is armchair theorizing and bulshit.

Yea, hello again Blackwater, I never saw you by the time I got to that other thread about ENFPs. So everyone you call an ENFP is superficial (in your extremely biased perspective). I say 'everyone you call an ENFP', because I really think that, judging by your previous comments, you don't know nearly enough about type to say 'I know an ____ who...' and have me take it seriously.
Now seriously, what is this thread about? I already had to read about your stupid beef with supposed ENFP's, and now you want to prop up your house of cards on some 'single standard' arguement. Well, it doesn't work my friend because no type expert says that ENTP's are superficial. I don't think ENTPs are superficial. Wherever that came from (your ass?) please just get rid of it.

Sheesh, and here I thought I was a bit too confrontational, but you put my confrontational capacities to shame!!!!

I must admit, however, when stripped of its personal attacks, and general tone of meanness, all in all, I agree with the points you assert.

[dissonance]

i know a few ENFPs who are superficial in certain social situations. but none of them are superficial with me. and my best friend, an ENFP, is like literally incapable of being superficial. her Fi won't allow it or something.

ENTPs seem capable of being superficial when they rely on their slightly underdeveloped Fe. my ENTP ex joined a sorority and spent the last year and a half being superficial before she got fed up and left.

but honestly, i don't think there's that strong of a correlation (if at all) between ENPs and superficiality.

[Gabe]

Originally Posted by Blackwater

Oh Gabe

In Vietnam they have this custom that if a person can present his case calmly then anybody who cannot respond to that case in the same calm manner has shamed himself. Sometimes, I really wish that this was the case in the West as well. If it was, then I wouldn't need to take the time to bitch-slap in into your place.



You're wrong there. What I wrote was that "I know quite a few ENFPs IRL and almost all of them have this tendency" . But of course the details of a particular post do have a tendency to blur out if your approach to reading is a little... superficial



See the funny thing about psychology is that there's rarely any final truth. As such, there's nothing I can say to make your definitively believe me. But it's funny how you appear to be completely unmoved by the other posters who seem to know exactly what I am talking about. If it's merely my judgment that's off, then why are half the posters in this thread offering similar stories?



"Naturally, this attitude [Ne] holds great dangers, for all to easily, the intuitive may fritter away his life on things and people, spreading about him an abundance of life which others life and not he himself. If only he could stay put, he would reap the fruits of his labour; but always he must be running after a new possiblity, quitting his newly planted fields while other gather in the harvest. In the end, he goes away empty." Jung: Psychological Types - Revised by F.C. Hull, Princeton Press - p. 369



It came from taking in data and interpreting it. Believe it or not, people sometimes do that when they're not being superficial.

Also, your immature ad hominem attacks seem to pretty much confirm what Substitute said:



So consider yourself bitch-slapped by Blackwater, your new bitch-master

So, in your world, if I get mad at you again I'm somehow already wrong or something. Well, fuck that shit.

Anyway, honestly, the 'behaviors' that you've described about SUPPOSED ENFPs don't neccisarily match the Jung quote.
I also think the way you try to 'reverse diagnose' this stuff is extremely problematic. Jung didn't end that passage with 'the converse is also true', and as it so happens, the converse is NOT true. I mean, that's why it never bothers me that Von franz talks about the inferior function and one's problems in life.

I still don't know what you think the injustice is here about talking about ENTPs vs. ENFPs. And it's based on some comments on this thread? Please. D'you really think that people are easier on ENFPs or something?

Now, people 'agreeing with you' means nothing. I just saw Jung 'agree' with you. All I see is a bandwagon.

As for what substitude said, I happen to think despite what your preferences are (or mine), my response was perfectly logical, if also angry, and instead of apreciating that you decided to split hairs.