Neurosis and NTs

[Kora]

I don't know if this should go to personal threads or whatever.

Anyway, I was wondering if neurosis is more of an NT thing (or maybe N in general). Does any of you suffer symptoms or are even a diagnosed neurotic? How is it for you? Do you think is there any way to overcome it or at least to live with it?
If not, do you know any neurotic? What do you see in their behaviour?

[INTJMom]

I don't know if this should go to personal threads or whatever.

Anyway, I was wondering if neurosis is more of an NT thing (or maybe N in general). Does any of you suffer symptoms or are even a diagnosed neurotic? How is it for you? Do you think is there any way to overcome it or at least to live with it?
If not, do you know any neurotic? What do you see in their behaviour?
Could you explain why you want to know?
Are you using the clinical definition of neurosis?

According to wiki, which I know is not an authoritative site:
"The term connotes an actual disorder or disease, but under its general definition, neurosis is a normal human experience, part of the human condition. Most people are affected by neurosis in some form."

[Synarch]

I think N's are probably more likely to be neurotic in that they're less concrete in their thinking. Conceptual, abstract thinking can lead to troubling questions and then the mind starts chasing its own tail. I envy those who can slow down and just deal with the world as it is.

[Jack Flak]

I think the opposite. It's my personal hypothesis that NTs are capable of understanding unusual tendencies in our minds, and are therefore defended against them more than others are.

An SJ with some form of neurosis isn't a pretty sight. They have no idea what to think or do about it.

[Synarch]

They may be able to cope better with neurosis, but I still think they may be more neurotic in general. You know?

[Jack Flak]

They may be able to cope better with neurosis, but I still think they may be more neurotic in general. You know?
I know what you mean, and you could be right, but I haven't observed that trend. Which could naturally be because NTs can own neuroses, as opposed to being owned by them. They can be invisible.

[Night]

I know what you mean, and you could be right, but I haven't observed that trend. Which could naturally be because NTs can own neuroses, as opposed to being owned by them. They can be invisible.

While I like the spirit of this concept, is it possible that you're generalizing a sense of psychological "empowerment" to NTs that might better align on an individual level, as opposed to within an MBTI classification range?

I'm not necessarily poo-pooing your idea.

As most know, neurotic behavior is often a coping mechanism, intimately designed to deflect anxiety. Most feel some sense of anxiety at the uncontrollable things in their lives - often without clinical neurosis attached to their coping behavior.

Are NTs that different?

[Jack Flak]

While I like the spirit of this concept, is it possible that you're generalizing a sense of psychological "empowerment" to NTs that might better align on an individual level, as opposed to within an MBTI classification range?
I agree in that the individual is more important in this regard. The topic of discussion though, is NTs in general, and I would say there is a greater tendency in NTs than others to have control over mind. For a few reasons, even including that by being NT in the modern world, we are not only built to seek out and understand knowledge, but it is readily available to us. So,

The average adult NT has reasonable knowledge and understanding about the function of the brain, and can consider it a quite non-mystical system which they own. If a problem arises to which there is no easy solution, the NT can say (I simplify) "Well, that's too bad. Perhaps we'd better work around this problem and get on with existence."

[Jennifer]

As most know, neurotic behavior is often a coping mechanism, intimately designed to deflect anxiety. Most feel some sense of anxiety at the uncontrollable things in their lives - often without clinical neurosis attached to their coping behavior. Are NTs that different?

Yes, I think certain types might more easily be susceptible to particular neuroses, but no type is "more neurotic" ... especially if we realize that some aggressive behavior is just neurotic behavior driven against others rather than the self.

I've seen neurosis defined both as maladjusted coping mechanisms as well as the avoidance of legitimate suffering. (Both definitions have value, I think.)

I agree in that the individual is more important in this regard. The topic of discussion though, is NTs in general, and I would say there is a greater tendency in NTs than others to have control over mind. For a few reasons, even including that by being NT in the modern world, we are not only built to seek out and understand knowledge, but it is readily available to us.

Really, that should then suit us better to NOT be neurotic -- if we are more easily able to abstractly assess things. There's a lot of S neurosis that occurs because of a lack of N, and they can more easily dissociate and/or repress things they don't want to deal with... or miss the insight that might come more naturally to an N.

[Night]

I agree in that the individual is more important in this regard. The topic of discussion though, is NTs in general, and I would say there is a greater tendency in NTs than others to have control over mind. For a few reasons, even including that by being NT in the modern world, we are not only built to seek out and understand knowledge, but it is readily available to us. So,

The average adult NT has reasonable knowledge and understanding about the function of the brain, and can consider it a quite non-mystical system which they own. If a problem arises to which there is no easy solution, the NT can say (I simplify) "Well, that's too bad. Perhaps we'd better work around this problem and get on with existence."

Interesting.

How might the strategies of an NT differ from those of, say, an NF?

As the governing function seems to be a complex system of emotion designed to reduce anxiety/relieve tension, is it possible that the NF would, by virtue of their inherent disposition towards understanding complex emotion, be better situated to understand their personal neurosis than would an NT?



I've seen neurosis defined both as maladjusted coping mechanisms as well as the avoidance of legitimate suffering. (Both definitions have value, I think.)

In both scenarios, it seems that the individual has an innate desire to rid themselves (alogically, if you like) of the negative stimulus.

Is this an NT-centric or NF-centric design trait?

[Jack Flak]

Allow me to stereotype horrendously to get my point across. Please dilute to taste.

NF: Suicide
SP: Alcohol
SJ: Insanity

[Night]

Haha...nice, Jack.

[Jack Flak]

Regarding NFs in slightly better detail: Their conclusions tend to be more general, and are by nature tied to emotion. The lack of detachment is a problem when dealing with neuroses.

[Synarch]

NT: Suppression / avoidance ?

[Jack Flak]

NT: Suppression / avoidance ?
That sounds right.

[Night]

Regarding NFs in slightly better detail: Their conclusions tend to be more general, and are by nature tied to emotion. The lack of detachment is a problem when dealing with neuroses.

Nicely said, Jack.

If I appropriately understand you, detachment is central to progression beyond the neurosis, as it allows the individual to analyze their infirmity, free from extraneous internal variables?

If neurosis then begins - and ends - within the individual, is it ever truly vacated? Does awareness of the neurotic tendency forever chain it to one's psychological identity?

[bluemonday]

"Neurosis" is too broad a brush to paint a type or collection of types.

People don't develop neurosis because of their type, but because of environmental influences. Type has a bearing on how a neurosis may manifest itself e.g. moving toward/moving against/moving away from people. A drive for self-sufficiency common to NTs is likely to lead to the latter, but the more extrovert types might employ the middle strategy.

Karen Horney has some interesting things to say about this stuff.

[Usehername]

NT: Suppression / avoidance ?

This might be generally true, but perhaps it's magnified in males and not as manifest in females. I'm prone to these things in day-to-day existence, but when the opportunity comes to sit down and have a private, uninterrupted 3 hour conversation with a trustworthy friend (usually my eNFJ) I embrace it and generally pour out my troubled heart and soul.

[Night]

"Neurosis" is too broad a brush to paint a type or collection of types.

People don't develop neurosis because of their type, but because of environmental influences. Type has a bearing on how a neurosis may manifest itself e.g. moving toward/moving against/moving away from people. A drive for self-sufficiency common to NTs is likely to lead to the latter, but the more extrovert types might employ the middle strategy.

Karen Horney has some interesting things to say about this stuff.

I think you and I fundamentally agree on the opacity of anchoring/immunity from neurosis to specific type classification.

Does anyone believe that self-awareness ever truly creates progression beyond the neurotic behavior?

[burkeus]

Regarding NFs in slightly better detail: Their conclusions tend to be more general, and are by nature tied to emotion. The lack of detachment is a problem when dealing with neuroses.

Bingo

[Jack Flak]

If I appropriately understand you, detachment is central to progression beyond the neurosis, as it allows the individual to analyze their infirmity, free from extraneous internal variables?
Yes, I believe so. Not letting neurosis get a foothold and take over is the idea, and someone who can't separate what they feel so strongly from their analysis is sub-equipped for that.

If neurosis then begins - and ends - within the individual, is it ever truly vacated? Does awareness of the neurotic tendency forever chain it to one's psychological identity?
Effectively, I think it can be squashed. If caused by external stimuli, and the stimuli are no longer present, I can see the problem being only a memory. Not to mention, there can be emplaced a level of immunity: In knowing the problem can potentially be solved, the resulting confidence can make one more resilient. It's less likely to even become a "problem" in the future.

[bluemonday]

I would say there is a greater tendency in NTs than others to have control over mind.

Disagree.

All they have control over are the conscious functions, they are as much slaves to the inferior/unconscious functions as any other type. In the case of INTPs the fact that Fe is so undeveloped can lead to very irrational thoughts/feelings/behaviour indeed.

Suicide/depression/mental illness are common amongst NTs. Ns in general. It's the flipside of creativity. See Kay Redfield Jamieson "Touched with Fire".
Also "Strong Imagination" Daniel Nettle.

"And as imagination bodies forth
The form of things unknown, the poet's pen
Turns them to shapes, and gives to airy nothing
A local habitation and a name
Such tricks hath strong imagination."
~Shakespeare.

[whatever]

Allow me to stereotype horrendously to get my point across. Please dilute to taste.

NF: Suicide
SP: Alcohol
SJ: Insanity

:huh: does this mean I have to give up drinking?

I kind of suspect that a J would be more neurotic than a P, regardless of the other letters. The Js I know aren't as good at coping to unforseen events and such as Ps.

Though a P stuck in a tedious job or relationship can be pretty neurotic as well :thinking:

I guess anyone living outside of thier nature is more at risk of developing a neuroticism than anyone not?

*thinking outloud*

[Jack Flak]

Disagree...
Well I agree with you there. I haven't said enough, as per usual. By "greater control over mind" I took everything into account: Degree, Instances, and Time. NTs do have "irrational" feelings and thoughts, but they are usually caused by something unusual and specific, and tied to that. Our median moment is not an irrational one.

[Jack Flak]

Does this mean I have to give up drinking?
No, of course not. I quit, but I wasn't self-medicating, I was having fun (and acting stupidly).

[entropie]

:huh: does this mean I have to give up drinking?




Haha :cheers: :D

I am a master at eating nails and I am a neurotic fish, my teacher in driving school feared me, as does all the other people in traffic.

But I support the "NT fix yourself" theory, I myself have come a long way.

[Night]

I think it might be valuable to broaden the parameters of the OP to include other types.

[Jack Flak]

I forgot to mention: I agree that more Js possess obvious neuroses than Ps. It's what I've witnessed, anyway.

[Kora]

Could you explain why you want to know?
Are you using the clinical definition of neurosis?

I'm curious. And yes, I'm using the clinical definition.

I think it might be valuable to broaden the parameters of the OP to include other types.
Sure, but then it should be moved from here.

[ptgatsby]

I'm curious. And yes, I'm using the clinical definition.


If so, then it shouldn't relate much to NT personality types, even under a very general diagnosis (depression vs anxiety vs OCD).

(And before I get jumped on, that's not saying the NTs don't have various outlets for it, it just doesn't relate to those dimensions.)

[Night]

If so, then it shouldn't relate much to NT personality types, even under a very general diagnosis (depression vs anxiety vs OCD).


+1.

[Jack Flak]

Addendum/clarification to my NF neurosis statments:

NFs can't detach from harmful emotional states because they trust feeling to make decisions, not thinking. When confronted with neurosis, the dominant arbitrary mechanism within their psyches tells them they should feel bad, simply because they do feel bad. It's quite an obstacle, and I have little advice on the matter.

[bluemonday]

Addendum/clarification to my NF neurosis statments:

NFs can't detach from harmful emotional states because they trust feeling to make decisions, not thinking. When confronted with neurosis, the dominant arbitrary mechanism within their psyches tells them they should feel bad, simply because they do feel bad. It's quite an obstacle, and I have little advice on the matter.

Anyone in the grip of a neurosis can't detach from a harmful emotional state. I don't accept that NFs have any more difficulty in this regard than any other type. You seem to think NTs can will/think their way out of mental crisis - that just isn't the case. If the mind is diseased, then so is the will/thought process.

[Jack Flak]

Anyone in the grip of a neurosis can't detach from a harmful emotional state. I don't accept that NFs have any more difficulty in this regard than any other type. You seem to think NTs can will/think their way out of mental crisis - that just isn't the case. If the mind is diseased, then so is the will/thought process.
I do strongly believe there is a difference, but it isn't as if it's black and white, at all.

I see competing forces at work, and if your strongest force is undermined, you're up shit creek in a barbed wire canoe.

[entropie]

It's like going to sail without your boat, isnt it ?

[Jack Flak]

It's like going to sail without your boat, isnt it ?
To maintain the metaphor, let's say...

An NT dealing with neurosis is like a motorboat going against the wind, but an NF dealing with neurosis is like a sailboat going against it.

[bluemonday]

It's like going to sail without your boat, isnt it ?
+1
excellent metaphor entropie, I was struggling for one.

To maintain the metaphor, let's say...

An NT dealing with neurosis is like a motorboat going against the wind, but an NF dealing with neurosis is like a sailboat going against it.

you are like The Titanic - going down.

[entropie]

To maintain the metaphor, let's say...

An NT dealing with neurosis is like a motorboat going against the wind, but an NF dealing with neurosis is like a sailboat going against it.

hehe.

Although the NF's kann be amazing; on the one hand my INFJ for example has a remarkeable understanding of the human psyche. Her ability to draw a conclusion, what problems made someones holistic psyche and how they can be helped, is amazing.

But when it comes to pinpointing down the symptoms that could be responsible for causing an illness, she sucks bigtime.

It is amazing, on the one hand, she can enlighten your whole life, with just a few words, but that tiny tiny things that follow a linear pattern, sometimes evade her, because she thinks too wired.

[Jack Flak]

Although the NF's kann be amazing
Natürlich. I wouldn't be satisfied without them around. Analysis isn't criticism. They're far better on average than NTs at making people other than themselves happier.

[LadyJaye]

I find neurotic NT's much more difficult to reason with than neurotic NF's, because a feeling can be refuted as false, but an NT who clings to their "logic" even when it's clearly faulty, it's almost impossible for them to see otherwise.

[substitute]

Neurosis, as I understand it, can be summed up by...

The right mind thinks 2+2=4 and is okay with that
The delusional mind thinks 2+2=5 and is okay with that
The neurotic mind knows 2+2=4, but HATES it.

A sort of resistance to accepting and dealing with immutable realities? Like somebody who falls in love, finds it unrequitted, but just simply cannot move on and spends years fooling themselves that the object of their affection will leave her husband and elope with him?

Or maybe like, not being able to accept the freewill of others, y'know? Sorta, make plans and stuff involving other people, then just not be able to deal when the other people don't want to cooperate, and have plans of their own, trying to sorta force them, dominate/coerce them into cooperating and then not accepting that this makes them disliked?

I think I've seen the most examples of that sort of behaviour in J's... so whilst maybe NTJ's might be prone to it, I tend to think NTP's are quite resistant to it.

[bluemonday]

I find neurotic NT's much more difficult to reason with than neurotic NF's, because a feeling can be refuted as false, but an NT who clings to their "logic" even when it's clearly faulty, it's almost impossible for them to see otherwise.

Excellent point.

[Jack Flak]

I find neurotic NT's much more difficult to reason with than neurotic NF's, because a feeling can be refuted as false, but an NT who clings to their "logic" even when it's clearly faulty, it's almost impossible for them to see otherwise.
I don't see the theoretical difference there, self-assessment of "logical ability" aside.

But...you refer to outside refutation, such as a psychiatrist? You may have something there. Less confidence in self-assessment in the NF?

If this is correct, it might all balance out as far as improvement, but that the NF would need assistance while the NT "must" rely on him/her self.

[substitute]

Oh yeah, and what LadyJaye said - again, I think NTJ's might be more prone to that than NTP's, because they're more likely to be, well, you know how they can be when they've got it all worked out...? I think an NTP would be more willing to consider that there was data they'd not taken into account in their logical process, to reassess... whereas it's somewhat harder to convince an NTJ to do this, generally speaking.

[bluemonday]

^ delusional NTP ramblings....

[entropie]

Natürlich. I wouldn't be satisfied without them around. Analysis isn't criticism. They're far better on average than NTs at making people other than themselves happier.

sure, I was trying to analyze myself. In the case of me and my INFJ, I really can say it is a TP vs. FJ thing. She has developed some overall sense of things, while I get to live life everyday differently.

That is what enables me, in my opinion, to stay moreso in touch, with life's makeup.

Something like you would try everyday to keep up your quadratic equation, while the FJ sometimes needs a gaussian algorithmus to revert her complicated function back to the root.

[entropie]

I am not getting us further, am I ? :D

[LadyJaye]

I don't see the theoretical difference there, self-assessment of "logical ability" aside.

But...you refer to outside refutation, such as a psychiatrist? You may have something there. Less confidence in self-assessment in the NF?

If this is correct, it might all balance out as far as improvement, but that the NF would need assistance while the NT "must" rely on him/her self.

Nope. I don't need someone to tell me how to assess my own feelings. I'm perfectly capable of analyzing them on my own - I know when I'm being fed false information by my emotions. I can choose how I wish to react to a situation, despite my feelings, and I can tell myself that a feeling is strictly that - a feeling. It's not the sole law I must live by.

To me, neurotic NT's are like a robot that keeps going through the same loop and logging an error, over and over again. I have two very close friends, an INTP and an INTJ, and they are two of the worse self assessors I've ever met. They can't see where they might need outside help - they assume they can "fix" everything themselves, including their social deficiencies, for which they have no expertise, but they blindly lunge forward anyway, because their logic is completely lying to them. But according to them, they can't be wrong, because logic always saves the day, even though it clearly isn't.

[Jack Flak]

Nope. I don't need someone to tell me how to assess my own feelings. I'm perfectly capable of analyzing them on my own - I know when I'm being fed false information by my emotions. I can choose how I wish to react to a situation, despite my feelings, and I can tell myself that a feeling is strictly that - a feeling. It's not the sole law I must live by.
This holds true for NFs you are aware of, on average? I'm seeking understanding here, not debating.

To me, neurotic NT's are like a robot that keeps going through the same loop and logging an error, over and over again. I have two very close friends, an INTP and an INTJ, and they are two of the worse self assessors I've ever met. They can't see where they might need outside help - they assume they can "fix" everything themselves, including their social deficiencies, for which they have no expertise, but they blindly lunge forward anyway, because their logic is completely lying to them. But according to them, they can't be wrong, because logic always saves the day, even though it clearly isn't.
I understand that completely. NTs aren't usually fond of intervention, regardless of how well they're solving a problem. So the NT needs to be self-correcting more than others.

[Tallulah]

I find neurotic NT's much more difficult to reason with than neurotic NF's, because a feeling can be refuted as false, but an NT who clings to their "logic" even when it's clearly faulty, it's almost impossible for them to see otherwise.

Yeah, but if they're neurotic NFs, sometimes they trust their feelings so much that you can't tell them that just because they feel something that it's an accurate view of the situation at hand. However, when I'm in a neurotic/depressed state, I have the same blinders on. It's hard to imagine that life isn't exactly as I'm perceiving it, even though I might logically know that it's a faulty perception.

To me, neurotic NT's are like a robot that keeps going through the same loop and logging an error, over and over again. I have two very close friends, an INTP and an INTJ, and they are two of the worse self assessors I've ever met. They can't see where they might need outside help - they assume they can "fix" everything themselves, including their social deficiencies, for which they have no expertise, but they blindly lunge forward anyway, because their logic is completely lying to them. But according to them, they can't be wrong, because logic always saves the day, even though it clearly isn't.

This is true. I think it's just two sides of the same coin, though. I think when anyone is in a state of upheaval, they start spinning in circles with whatever processes they trust. I do have a big problem with wanting to fix things and wanting to do everything by myself, but I have learned that I pretty much downward-spiral if I let that go on. Nothing teaches you that no man is an island quite like having to deal with anxiety or depression. You can't logic your way out of those things.

[bluemonday]

I understand that completely. NTs aren't usually fond of intervention, regardless of how well they're solving a problem. So the NT needs to be self-correcting more than others.

:doh:
Just because he needs to be, doesn't mean he is.

[Haphazard]

:doh:
Just because he needs to be, doesn't mean he is.

It's got to be kind of one of those things where you've got to convince them without them noticing. Or else it fails.

[Jack Flak]

:doh:
Just because he needs to be, doesn't mean he is.
It doesn't matter; same net result. If I don't want your help, I'll fight back with all my functions, then once you've given up, and you will, I'm right back where I started, figuring it out myself.

[bluemonday]

It doesn't matter; same net result. If I don't want your help, I'll fight back with all my functions, then once you've given up, and you will, I'm right back where I started, figuring it out myself.

Explain to me how that makes you healthier/less neurotic than the average NF?

[Jack Flak]

It's got to be kind of one of those things where you've got to convince them without them noticing. Or else it fails.
lol. Yes, and when you're dealing with someone who's extremely perceptive, the ruse can be worse than directness. Oh, the memories.

[Jack Flak]

Explain to me how that makes you healthier/less neurotic than the average NF?
It doesn't. I've only been talking about people with afflictions, of which I and the average NF are free from at the moment.

[bluemonday]

It doesn't. I've only been talking about people with afflictions, of which I and the average NF are free from at the moment.
Evasion -10 pts.

Explain to me how that makes you the average NT healthier/less neurotic than the average NF?

Fixed.

[InaF3157]

lol. Yes, and when you're dealing with someone who's extremely perceptive, the ruse can be worse than directness. Oh, the memories.

uh huh. One thing that will get me downright nasty to the point of sadism is people who think they can "fix" me by indirect manipulations, so they'd better be extremely talented at being subtle yet effective.

[Haphazard]

lol. Yes, and when you're dealing with someone who's extremely perceptive, the ruse can be worse than directness. Oh, the memories.

Yes, but if you've kept it going for long enough and you're found out, they may be lucid enough to thank you for it.

Begrudgingly, of course. Because that's how NTs are with this sort of thing.

[Jack Flak]

...
Again, the average NT and average NF are both "healthy."

It still seems to me the average adult NT might be better equipped to ward off and deal with neuroses if under their assault.

[Jack Flak]

Yes, but if you've kept it going for long enough and you're found out, they may be lucid enough to thank you for it.

Begrudgingly, of course. Because that's how NTs are with this sort of thing.
Some, perhaps. I've been on the receiving end though, was having none of it, and retain my spite many years later.

[LadyJaye]

This holds true for NFs you are aware of, on average? I'm seeking understanding here, not debating.

I'm not debating with you. I'm disagreeing with you. Different.

I know some NF's who are healthy enough to analyze themselves - otherwise anyone could tell us how we should feel about a given situation and we'd be forced to accept it. I do also know a few NF's who are blown around on every breeze because they haven't mastered their emotions.

Yeah, but if they're neurotic NFs, sometimes they trust their feelings so much that you can't tell them that just because they feel something that it's an accurate view of the situation at hand. However, when I'm in a neurotic/depressed state, I have the same blinders on. It's hard to imagine that life isn't exactly as I'm perceiving it, even though I might logically know that it's a faulty perception.

This is true. I think it's just two sides of the same coin, though. I think when anyone is in a state of upheaval, they start spinning in circles with whatever processes they trust. I do have a big problem with wanting to fix things and wanting to do everything by myself, but I have learned that I pretty much downward-spiral if I let that go on. Nothing teaches you that no man is an island quite like having to deal with anxiety or depression. You can't logic your way out of those things.

I agree. When you're in the grip, your primary functions go from an asset to a liability, especially when under personal duress. I had problems with anxiety several years ago, and it was a herculean effort to cut out the feelings from what I knew to be the truth, because my emotions were telling me false things. I can imagine that an NT being fed false logic would be just as upending.

[LadyJaye]

Some, perhaps. I've been on the receiving end though, was having none of it, and retain my spite many years later.

This is what I'm not getting - you're defending the fact that you've belligerently not sought help, or allowed help to be given to you, despite the fact you might not have been the most qualified opinion? Why would you do that?

[bluemonday]

Again, the average NT and average NF are both "healthy."

It still seems to me the average adult NT might be better equipped to ward off and deal with neuroses if under their assault.

Arrrgh! You started talking about "the average". If I said unhealthy, the question wouldn't have made sense.

How can a person who refuses help/intervention when they are in the middle of a mental/emotional crises possibly be healthier than someone who doesn't?

[Haphazard]

Then again if it's something that can reasonably be considered a small problem, the NT is probably better off left alone. They'll figure it out themselves eventually...

[Jack Flak]

I'm not debating with you. I'm disagreeing with you. Different.
Thank you for providing insight and clarification to my incomplete notions on the subject.

I know some NF's who are healthy enough to analyze themselves - otherwise anyone could tell us how we should feel about a given situation and we'd be forced to accept it.
I doubt anyone thinks that's how it works. Certainly not me.

I agree. When you're in the grip, your primary functions go from an asset to a liability, especially when under personal duress. I had problems with anxiety several years ago, and it was a herculean effort to cut out the feelings from what I knew to be the truth, because my emotions were telling me false things. I can imagine that an NT being fed false logic would be just as upending.
My rhetoric has revolved around the competition between thinking and feeling in the mind, and that if feeling is corrupted (as I consider to be what neurosis does), logical thinking capability has the potential to control it, but not necessarily.

As far as logical thinking being corrupted, naturally that would be worse for an NT than an NF.

[Tallulah]

I agree. When you're in the grip, your primary functions go from an asset to a liability, especially when under personal duress. I had problems with anxiety several years ago, and it was a herculean effort to cut out the feelings from what I knew to be the truth, because my emotions were telling me false things. I can imagine that an NT being fed false logic would be just as upending.

That's it, exactly. VERY disconcerting, but the positive aspect is that it becomes so apparent that it's wrong that you have no choice but to get some outside input. And you learn to stop trying to fix yourself, really quickly.

[Jack Flak]

This is what I'm not getting - you're defending the fact that you've belligerently not sought help, or allowed help to be given to you, despite the fact you might not have been the most qualified opinion? Why would you do that?
It's complicated! Though primarily it was considered intrusion, violation.

[bluemonday]

Jack - I recommend "The Schopenhauer Cure" by Irvin Yalom.
Says it better than I ever could.

[Haphazard]

When I saw that Tallulah had posted, I misread the thread title as 'Halitosis and NTs'...

[LadyJaye]

Then again if it's something that can reasonably be considered a small problem, the NT is probably better off left alone. They'll figure it out themselves eventually...

NF's are just as capable of figuring out how to get things done as an NT, in about the same amount of time in general. I don't see a learning curve because of logic vs feeling.

[Haphazard]

NF's are just as capable of figuring out how to get things done as an NT, in about the same amount of time in general. I don't see a learning curve because of logic vs feeling.

It's not a matter of learning curve. It's a matter of an NT would get a helluva lot more annoyed than an NF.

[Jack Flak]

It's not a matter of learning curve. It's a matter of an NT would get a helluva lot more annoyed than an NF.
NFs have been called more cooperative-minded, and I've never disagreed with that.

[LadyJaye]

That's it, exactly. VERY disconcerting, but the positive aspect is that it becomes so apparent that it's wrong that you have no choice but to get some outside input. And you learn to stop trying to fix yourself, really quickly.

Yes, exactly. I can imagine that an NT who becomes aware of their need for outside help would seek it as soon as the situation provided the insight needed to do that.

As an NF, I also bristle at the idea of anyone trying to meddle with me, uninvited opinions and attempts to dig out information that I'm not willing to give. Even as a child, I clammed up the minute I perceived an adult trying to extract information from me that I didn't want to share. But, I do know when I need help - I have that AHA! moment, when I'm given a revelation that I need to seek the outside opinion of others, because I know I need others to guide me. I know I can't do everything myself, even as much as I would want to.

Bottom line - I think both NFs and NTs, when mentally or emotionally afflicted, will do the same unhealthy things.

[Jack Flak]

Yes, exactly. I can imagine that an NT who becomes aware of their need for outside help would seek it as soon as the situation provided the insight needed to do that.
Then, when the outside help turns out to be completely ineffective, the NT returns to self-repair and eventually solves the problem.

[LadyJaye]

I doubt anyone thinks that's how it works. Certainly not me.

Oh, I would say that more than a few in the NT Private forum would think that about us, and more.


It's complicated! Though primarily it was considered intrusion, violation.

Well, of course someone is intruding. They would have to in order to know what was wrong. But, I do agree that it's incredibly uncomfortable. I don't enjoy it.

[LadyJaye]

Then, when the outside help turns out to be completely ineffective, the NT returns to self-repair and eventually solves the problem.

Or wallows around in it helplessly for years. One of the two.

[Jack Flak]

Or wallows around in it helplessly for years. One of the two.
Always a possibility. Something to consider though, is that the mere act of "getting help" is not a panacea, and the methods of others are usually workarounds as much as one's own methods are.

[Haphazard]

If I had to guess, the acceptance of help from others in these matters would go like this:

E > I

FJ > TJ > FP > TP

I dunno about TJ versus FP, though. Unless a TJ finds that the problem is seriously affecting something tangible that they can obviously see, they'll be as resistant as the FP.

Though nobody likes it when it happens.

[LadyJaye]

Always a possibility. Something to consider though, is that the mere act of "getting help" is not a panacea, and the methods of others are usually workarounds as much as one's own methods are.

No. There's no guarantee that seeking help will fix the problem, but refusing help is compounding it. And assuming that help will inevitably fail you, and that your method of self cobbling will fix everything isn't accurate either. I'm sure your self help method has failed you on more than one occasion.

[Jack Flak]

No. There's no guarantee that seeking help will fix the problem, but refusing help is compounding it.
That's not necessarily true. If one is technically better at solving one's own problems than others are, to hand the situation over merely results in inefficiency and delay, along with the already mentioned psychological nuisance.
And assuming that help will inevitably fail you, and that your method of self cobbling will fix everything isn't accurate either. I'm sure your self help method has failed you on more than one occasion.
Different strokes for different folks, I say. And only through a lifetime of test cases, regarding emotional issues and otherwise, have I learned that trusting self in most matters is infinitely more reliable than trusting others. There are a few exceptions to the rule.

[entropie]

I broke my pencil again, the duct-tape didnt work.

Was "duct-tape" the right word or where do I have such knowledge from ?!

[Jack Flak]

I broke my pencil again, the duct-tape didnt work.

Was "duct-tape" the right word or where do I have such knowledge from ?!
LOL. I believe duct or duck is acceptable.

[ajblaise]

Duck tape is correct. I've had this debate on INTPc before.

[Jack Flak]

Duck tape is correct. I've had this debate on INTPc before.
But you can go to the store and buy stuff called "duct tape" which is silver and sticky. Both terms work.

[entropie]

There is a debate behind it ? Now you've made me curious

[entropie]

yeah, I got that, I know what the silence means :D

But you are freed, I am so hungry, even thought about eating my Klebeband

[ajblaise]

But you can go to the store and buy stuff called "duct tape" which is silver and sticky. Both terms work.

They both work, but duck tape was the original name. Back during WWII.

[Jack Flak]

They both work, but duck tape was the original name. Back during WWII.
I am aware of this bit of trivia.

[entropie]

Back during WWII it was "Klebeband" that anglizisms, where of no use then :D

[LeonardoLestat]

I don't know if this should go to personal threads or whatever.

Anyway, I was wondering if neurosis is more of an NT thing (or maybe N in general). Does any of you suffer symptoms or are even a diagnosed neurotic? How is it for you? Do you think is there any way to overcome it or at least to live with it?
If not, do you know any neurotic? What do you see in their behaviour?

N's tend, in my experience, to consciously act neurotic to deal with the weird and fuzzy intuitive mind - to have some kind of 'handle' on things.
I'm pretty compulsive/obsessive.Repetitive action to prevent the scary thoughts.

[cherchair]

Addendum/clarification to my NF neurosis statments:

NFs can't detach from harmful emotional states because they trust feeling to make decisions, not thinking. When confronted with neurosis, the dominant arbitrary mechanism within their psyches tells them they should feel bad, simply because they do feel bad. It's quite an obstacle, and I have little advice on the matter.

I disagree. The longer an NF lives with a condition, whether neuroticism or mental illness, the more coping skills they *can* learn, just out of a sense of self-preservation. It's possible, for example, to recognize, say, paranoia as a feeling that should *not* be acted upon. The more an NF reinforces this with experience, the easier it gets, IMO. If you just live long enough...

[cherchair]

I disagree. The longer an NF lives with a condition, whether neuroticism or mental illness, the more coping skills they *can* learn, just out of a sense of self-preservation. It's possible, for example, to recognize, say, paranoia as a feeling that should *not* be acted upon. The more an NF reinforces this with experience, the easier it gets, IMO. If you just live long enough...

I guess my point here is that NFs, like other types, can learn from experience. If they do enough enough self-destructive shit or destroy relationships they value because of harmful emotional states, it's possible for them to start connecting the dots and learn to take a different approach, though I admit this can take a looong time.:doh:

[sleeptowin]

To me, neurotic NT's are like a robot that keeps going through the same loop and logging an error, over and over again [...] but they blindly lunge forward anyway, because their logic is completely lying to them. But according to them, they can't be wrong, because logic always saves the day, even though it clearly isn't.

Bulls eye.

Anyway, in my opinion, NT's are not more suspectible to neurosis, or more likely to fix their neurosis than any other type, in these matters, all types (or non-types) are equal. Atleast in my opinion.

Though they are very likely to deal with it in a very NT way (NT's dealing with things in a NT way? How peculiar!). They might accept this neurosis as some sort of universal truth, and go like:
Hey, I don't have a problem! It's the world around ME that has a problem with ME!

Or something like:
I don't feel like shit because I'm depressed over something, I feel like shit because life is shit! It's the truth!

Neurotic NT's sometimes really are like sci-fi robots with a messed up logic-circuit. Or like Vulcans, from bizzaro-vulcan, with bizzaro-logic, or something like that.

[Orangey]

Or something like:
I don't feel like shit because I'm depressed over something, I feel like shit because life is shit! It's the truth!

I think I've said that very thing. Remarkable.

[Jack Flak]

The implication being that life isn't shit, and I, for one, must disagree.

[Sunshine8]

Then, when the outside help turns out to be completely ineffective, the NT returns to self-repair and eventually solves the problem.

I agree that it is better for you as an individual to not ask for help - because while ever you believe that no one can really help you, you are just going to drive other people insane and they will irritate the heck out of you!

:)

While I am a great believer in self-repair, I like to keep in mind that when it comes to solutions:

me:not me ratio is 1:6.73 billion

The odds are that there can be useful and effective help out there...when you go looking for it rather than when it is imposed on you.

You also sound like you need a hug to me.

[Jack Flak]

I agree that it is better for you as an individual to not ask for help - because while ever you believe that no one can really help you, you are just going to drive other people insane and they will irritate the heck out of you!

:)

While I am a great believer in self-repair, I like to keep in mind that when it comes to solutions:

me:not me ratio is 1:6.73 billion

The odds are that there can be useful and effective help out there...when you go looking for it rather than when it is imposed on you.

You also sound like you need a hug to me.
Now you're just asking for it.

[Uberfuhrer]

I think that with a neurotic NT, their less-developed S side leads them to become over-realistic about everything to the point of inaction -- making simple tasks more of a chore than they actually are, because they obsess over the unpleasant details that hinder their goals.

I think that this hyperrealism is more common in the xNTP, while the xNTJ will more likely become more impulsive. A difference between tertiary/inferior Si and tertiary/inferior Se.

[sleeptowin]

The implication being that life isn't shit, and I, for one, must disagree.

Well, I'm not going to disagree with you fully, but I won't agree with you fully either. Life is shit, yes, this is to some extent true, but this is not always true.

the proportions are, EHRM, just a BIT off.

[Sunshine8]

Now you're just asking for it.

:) and you just love it.