Thinking about thinking

[Grayscale]

How aware are you of your own thinking?

On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being rather cerebellic, automatic body functions like breathing and heartrate, 10 being the able to sense and manipulate your thinking like you would your hand.





ever since i can remember ive had a strange awareness of my own thought patterns, and like learning to walk, i learned to control it like i would an appendage; to the point where consciousness is more like putty, allowing the user to form it into whatever tool and perspective necessary.

but with control comes power, and with power comes responsibility, this can lead one to distrust themselves and their own thinking, and often times others' (which is due to projection)... because people are in control of themselves and thus selfish. without the ability to act "naturally", there is an illusion that not only is a person that is in control of their mind and body completely responsible for it, but also that they are in control of what occurs to them and even their surrounding environment. it was 4 years ago, when i reached a peak, that i realized it was unhealthy.

it was this inability to know what was real and what was merely a selfish mental creation that drove me to find objectivity, and my degree of mental control that allowed me to use it for good and, finally, learn to let go of it. i dont think it is something i will ever be completely free of, but i can at least reach a point where i can identify most objective framework and isolate where where my choices are being made and why.

[substitute]

Another stunning post, dude :nice:

Yep, I relate to all of that. Nothing to add :)

[Aimahn]

Hmmm...this is a very interesting topic and one that I sort of have been inadvertently tackling for a while now. As for me right now I would still say I'm still in the first process you went through. I guess I'm still trying to cultivate my ability to manipulate my thinking and it is a somewhat frightening experience because your sphere of control is a very hard thing to get a perspective on when you are too concerned with "thinking about thinking".

Like Substitute I am at somewhat of a loss as to what to add on. I don't know whether I should get more in to the theory of meta-cognitive abilities or more the real life benefits and problems that this line of thinking can cause.

[ygolo]

[...]but i can at least reach a point where i can identify most objective framework and isolate where where my choices are being made and why.

:nice:

I want to learn to do that.

Overall I rather aware of my own thoughts, and can metacognate, but not to the point where I see where my actual choices are.

To put a number on it, I'll 7 is my level of awareness of my own thoughts.

Bohm called it proprioception of thoughts.

[Kyrielle]

Somewhere between 6 and 8 I would say on the whole. In moments of extreme stress and self-analysis, 9.

I understand and relate to all that you've said.

[Grayscale]

if you dont have something to add to the topic itself, then perhaps you could write about your own personal experiences with this (as you grew up and developed, etc)

Bohm called it proprioception of thoughts.

interesting...

for me it was something i realized was happening when i was 5 or so (i was in preschool at the time), where a thought would occur, then i would introspect on the thought, deduct the essential workings of it (and eventually reasons, motives, etc) then introspect on the introspection. this would loop (or overlap?) over and over until patterns occurred and then it would expand exponentially. when i began to observe other people it was easy to recognize the vector and layer of their thinking.

at a certain point, i realized a root motivation was to find the boundaries and then make an educated decision as to where to place myself within them, which is a behavior i have seen in myself in other ways ("spreading out then settling"). after developing layers and layers, someone can freely roam between them (or not?) comfortably. :) i dont have enough information to say for sure, but i think this is power/tool development behavior.

[Grayscale]

this is also why i admire idealism, from a "thinking strategy" standpoint it is an effective approach, even if not always entirely factual, due to subconcious target fixation

I don't know whether I should get more in to the theory of meta-cognitive abilities or more the real life benefits and problems that this line of thinking can cause.

either? ...both? :)

i think it is a very interesting topic, thinking is something everyone does, so everyone can relate to it at least in some way

[Aimahn]

I agree. Basically for a while now a large majority of what I have been interested has a root in that. MBTI, Education and curriculum differentiation, a little neurology, cognitive psychology, "left/right brain " thinking, blooms taxonomy, piaget's formal operations...etc. I'll think about it and try and come up with a more relevant and decent post later.

On the theory side of things I think there is a massive amount that can be discussed, I really need to stop being lazy though and direct and converge my thoughts into something more concise.

I do have one question though. would you say that you have a more clear and multi-purpose ordered mental state?

that is to say have you reached a point where your confident in fully utilizing your meta-cognitive abilities for a wide variety of things and are you very aware of all the processes?

[evan]

I always find myself getting into these ridiculous loops of thinking about thinking. Especially with a psychology framework, you can break down any desire/thought whatever into these larger motivational schemes. I've gotten to the point where I can, in an extremely detailed way, break down every action I take into a hierarchy of motivations reacting with the environment.

I know how I think, I think about my thinking, I come up with plans for change, etc. But then I just watch all of my plans go out the window in response to some stimulus. It happens over and over again -- I see the exact way out, I can write out a list of tasks, and then I watch myself not do it, and think about why I'm not implementing my plans, and then think about how I have now defined myself as someone who doesn't implement tasks, which is really just a coping mechanism for the fear of success, because with success comes pressure to maintain success. The whole thing is a giant coping mechanism for getting out of the stress of the moment and getting into the pleasure I find in ordering my thoughts. Why do I need that coping mechanism? Well, it traces back to my relationship with my mother, my school environment, my abilities, my interaction with my brother, etc.

(I could go on forever).

The conclusion is, you can think about your thinking all you want, and it's good to an extent, but it turns into an escape, a drug. Thinking about thinking means you're not thinking about the external world. You pay to think about thinking, in the currency of time in reality.

Blah, I'm in a really weird mood this week.

[Aimahn]

The conclusion is, you can think about your thinking all you want, and it's good to an extent, but it turns into an escape, a drug. Thinking about thinking means you're not thinking about the external world. You pay to think about thinking, in the currency of time in reality.





interesting...

for me it was something i realized was happening when i was 5 or so (i was in preschool at the time), where a thought would occur, then i would introspect on the thought, deduct the essential workings of it (and eventually reasons, motives, etc) then introspect on the introspection. this would loop (or overlap?) over and over until patterns occurred and then it would expand exponentially. when i began to observe other people it was easy to recognize the vector and layer of their thinking.

at a certain point, i realized a root motivation was to find the boundaries and then make an educated decision as to where to place myself within them, which is a behavior i have seen in myself in other ways ("spreading out then settling"). after developing layers and layers, someone can freely roam between them (or not?) comfortably. :) i dont have enough information to say for sure, but i think this is power/tool development behavior.

hmm... interesting response when I read yours and Grayscales post it made me sort of think of some of the overarching ideas in your Induction vs Deduction thread. It seems to me the general consensus is that at first you're not really aware of your thought process until you see them repeated enough or analyze them enough to where you can order or systematize them in some way.

I guess another issue is how removed you can get from the environment when you focus to heavily on your systematized thought processes and not put enough trust in your more "inductive" thought processes or those that are more raw and externally oriented.

[kuranes]

I reflect on things, including reflection itself etc. I rehearse possibilities and extrapolate probabilities of which possibilities I am more likely to encounter etc., but I don't think I address my subconscious much ( other than indirectly through dream and poetic metaphor etc. ) or it wouldn't be a SUBconscious. ( I am not one of those people who can drastically change his metabolic processes just by thinking about them. )

I am very interested in the subject of consciousness, though, and have been reading some interesting books lately on that and Qualia etc. I created several threads on this at INTPc. ( Ramachandran and others. )

[Aimahn]

I reflect on things, including reflection itself etc. I rehearse possibilities and extrapolate probabilities of which possibilities I am more likely to encounter etc., but I don't think I address my subconscious much ( other than indirectly through dream and poetic metaphor etc. ) or it wouldn't be a SUBconscious. ( I am not one of those people who can drastically change his metabolic processes just by thinking about them. )

I am very interested in the subject of consciousness, though, and have been reading some interesting books lately on that and Qualia etc. I created several threads on this at INTPc. ( Ramachandran and others. )

I am a little curious/interested in some of your thoughts on consciousness. I remember reading a couple of books about neuro-plasticity and how much conscious control you can have over some of your conscious processes. Pardon my ignorance but are those names you mentioned more spiritual, religious type people? I think there was a study relatively recently that looked at a bunch of monks and found remarkable evidence of how much control they had over the states of "consciousness".

[Nocapszy]

Compared against everyone I've ever known, I'll give myself a 10.
Compared to what I could be I'd give myself a 1.

[Aimahn]

Compared against everyone I've ever known, I'll give myself a 10.
Compared to what I could be I'd give myself a 1.

I think that response sort of highlights the difficulty in measuring it on a scale. Can you ever reach a point where you feel like you have maximized your meta-cognitive ability. It seems like it is necessary and somewhat desirable for it to be sort of a continuous loop. I think there needs to be a constant striving to reorganize as you experience more and receive more data and also on a comparative basis I'm sure everyone has a very unique and varied cognitive system.

[Grayscale]

I do have one question though. would you say that you have a more clear and multi-purpose ordered mental state?

that is to say have you reached a point where your confident in fully utilizing your meta-cognitive abilities for a wide variety of things and are you very aware of all the processes?

Compared against everyone I've ever known, I'll give myself a 10.
Compared to what I could be I'd give myself a 1.

I think that response sort of highlights the difficulty in measuring it on a scale. Can you ever reach a point where you feel like you have maximized your meta-cognitive ability. It seems like it is necessary and somewhat desirable for it to be sort of a continuous loop. I think there needs to be a constant striving to reorganize as you experience more and receive more data and also on a comparative basis I'm sure everyone has a very unique and varied cognitive system.


i am confident in my ability to be cognitively "resourceful", but i dont think it would be possible to ever reach a stopping point. you do, however, tend to take larger "leaps" less often, because as time goes in more things will fit into the existing pattern structure, and it is exponentially less likely that you will encounter a need for metacognitive expansion.

most of the time it plateus into a balance between application and introspective scanning, when the pattern breaks substantially then a closer, hyperanalysis can begin. of course, i have also considered the need many have (myself included) for reaching a point of "rest"... then, behind the growth of metacognitive awareness is also the development of ability to camouflage thinking within the pattern, so one must also be more tedious about spotting the inconsistencies when introspecting.

the brain can be tricky :thelook: it is a constant battle, always striving to reach into the meta-conscious, needing the sub-conscious but always being wary of its assumptions. eventually I just say the hell with it and go play a game of twister.

[kuranes]

I am a little curious/interested in some of your thoughts on consciousness.
Ramachandran is a scientist, but you're right about monks. I read that certain Zen practitioners constantly oscillate back and forth between Theta wave state and a waking state when in a certain meditative mode.

Thanks for your interest. When I have a little more time I'll expand.

[Martoon]

So if we're all here thinking about metacognition, is that metametacognition? Or metacognition cognition?

I'll have to think about that...

[evan]

meta^n cognition

[Hmm]

this is also why i admire idealism, from a "thinking strategy" standpoint it is an effective approach, even if not always entirely factual, due to subconcious target fixation

That's horrible. Please leave idealism out of all of your "strategizing".

[heart]

Thinking about thinking is probably the most important thinking that can be thought.

[Hmm]

Why is that?

[Aimahn]

I was just reading this book called the Paradox Of Wisdom..I think, but anyways one of the things I found really interesting was the authors take on the Left/Right brain split in terms of learning.

His take was that the right brain is much more active when engaged in new activities and with more repetition and experience the left brain is utilized much more and less intensively than the right. I remember reading a bunch of things about how most Intuitors are right brain dominant and it got me thinking maybe thats why striving for novel experiences are so important.

Hmm.... maybe someone with more experience and knowledge in the neuro-sciences can help paint a better picture or come up with a more interesting perspective. Could it be that right brain dominant individuals are better able to utilize that part of the brain and can in fact withhold as much transfer to the left side.

I think though that I don't "ever" really come to a point where something is so routinized that I don't see a new aspect or don't get the feeling that I can alter it somehow, I don't know it seems like I will never have the raw proficiency that I've observed some S's have. It seems like my intelligence and ability lie in my ability to be creative and ask the right questions for each situation. I think I sometimes foolishly rely on my ability to think quickly on my feet and utilize my meta-cognitive abilities for new situations.

[GZA]

I think about different perspectives and different ways to see things. I want to see what I turn it into... like...

This is what it is(1 variable)>>>>This is what it could be(many variables depending on the options I see)>>>Choice(one of the options or perspectives is chosen)>>>Action (realizing this choice into reality)

And then from there I chose how to tackle it based on what my motivation is (i.e. fun, work, creativity, ect). For example, at my school's Model UN club I saw it as a way to either learn current world politics, discuss world issues and hear different solutions, or have some fun and play devil's advocate and see just how far I can take the more absurd and rediculous arguments. I chose devil's advocate, and me and my friends are always Iran or North Korea because their perspectives play the best clown to the West's straight man. The result in action? Huge laughs!

I find that following through with that model really works well and helps me execute my decisions. It's really good motivation.

I wouldn't rate how I think about my thinking because it wouldn't go anywhere or mean anything or make any sense. I don't really think about my thinking, but rather my own personality and matters of self esteem and self confidence/ability, and what my own life is worth and how I should handle it. I'm more interested in the functions of creativity than thought anyway...

[Aimahn]

^ I think though that those things you focus on can really help clear your thoughts and help you utilize them more. I don't think that aspect is trivial at all, as a matter of fact I would say its probably one of the most important things I've learned. Having some insight in to your emotions and ambitions helps your thinking be productive.

[Martoon]

Thinking about thinking is probably the most important thinking that can be thought.
Ya think?

[whatever]

Thinking about thinking is probably the most important thinking that can be thought.

:unsure: I'm DOOMED!!!

I just think, I don't sit and think about it.

I guess there's the fear that when you think about thinking it loses some of its magic- like when cartoon characters run over the edge of a cliff and as long as they look down they don't fall.

I let my thoughts run free and they keep me going nicely, thinking about thinking wastes time I could be thinking of something else :thelook:

[ptgatsby]

Thinking about thinking is probably the most important thinking that can be thought.

If thinking about thinking is the most important kind of thinking, then no thinking except thinking about thinking would be thought, leaving no thinking on anything other than thinking about thinking about thinking available to think on.

Recursive thinking is not good thinking.

[INTJMom]

When I get overly aware of my thoughts, I have a panic attack.

[Aimahn]

I think it can quickly spiral downwards when you are thinking about emotionally charged things, THAT never ends well.

I like to play scenarios over in my head and break down my strategies and compare it in different contexts and what not and try and apply it to future situations. Letting go of the breaks and just following a line of thought until it has no immediate context or tangible aspects is also a fun little game I like to play.

[Victor]

When I get overly aware of my thoughts, I have a panic attack.

How interesting. I go in exactly the opposite direction. The more I am aware of my thoughts, the deeper I go. Until I let go of the external world until I am simply dancing and floating in the world of thought.

And then as I come back to the external world, it is as though I am waking up.

It is as though the world is waking up with me, and we are both refreshed and relaxed.

[heart]

If thinking about thinking is the most important kind of thinking, then no thinking except thinking about thinking would be thought, leaving no thinking on anything other than thinking about thinking about thinking available to think on.

Recursive thinking is not good thinking.

Recursive thinking may very well be the single most defining thing that seperates humans from animals (http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/feature/the-uniqueness-of-human-recursive-thinking), well aside from toliet paper.

How could anyone even begin to know and understand themselves even in a rudimentary way without examining how they think their own thoughts? :huh:

The most important part of a sundae is the cherry, yet without the ice cream, whipped cream and fudge sauce there's no sundae. It does not follow that just because thinking about thinking is the most important type of thinking that is the ONLY thinking that one would do. Good grief.