Understanding Male ISTJ Minds

[PinkIceTD]

So I am an ENFP female, and I have this ISTJ friend that I feel strongly attracted to.

I’ve been friends with him for about 10 months now and I have learned so much about him in that time. First, he is so structured to the point of annoyance. He plans everything, including fun. For the most part I really admire this about him because as I’m more “go with the flow” and he must have a plan and I think that makes him focused. So, I admire that.

What I am attracted to most in him is that he is complete opposite of me yet we have similar interests and goals on nearly every level.

Anyway, almost right away, I was ready to date him and I approached him. He said “no” and nothing else. So, I backed off a little and just started talking to him a little every day and I learned that he isn’t going to do ANYTHING that he doesn’t think about and come to a conclusion about on his own, but when he does he shows up fully. He is a man of his word.

So I haven’t brought up dating to him in nearly 5 or 6 months so 2 days ago, he brought it up. He explained to me that he works a lot (which he does, about 4 jobs…crazy) and he is about to buy a home. But that he wants to date me, and can’t see where in the long run how I will tolerate for very long his crazy schedule. And based on his past relationships the women end up resenting him because of it.

It’s pretty rare that he shares any thoughts or feelings beyond surface emotion so I was caught off guard and didn’t say much.

Today, I brought it up again, because not to kill a dead horse, but I felt as if we didn’t really finish the conversation…I asked him what he wanted, or what the ideal dating situation for him would be… and he said well I’ve dealt with this before and women all say the same thing but you all end up hating me because I don’t have time. And basically I told him that I understand what he’s telling me and I have been waiting for him for 10 months and I want to at least try it, or I can wait, or I can move on.

He said nothing expect, I have to go, but have a good night and I’ll talk to you later. And I was already pretty nervous having this convo with him, and when he said that I got flustered and said ok later…

So now I’m confused. I think he wants to think about what I said and come to me on some later date with his answer, but I don’t understand… was he nervous, or did I make him uncomfortable with my openness, or did he just not care?

Obviously as an ENFP, my thought process or the way I perceive him may be totally wrong. How can I better understand this ISTJ male?

[Metamorphosis]

I don't want to be a dick since I don't really know the whole situation, but this is what I see.

He's attracted to you, but too insecure to really do anything.
You're attracted to him because he's not doing anything (inadvertently teasing you)

[ArbiterDewey]

So I am an ENFP female, and I have this ISTJ friend that I feel strongly attracted to.

I’ve been friends with him for about 10 months now and I have learned so much about him in that time. First, he is so structured to the point of annoyance. He plans everything, including fun. For the most part I really admire this about him because as I’m more “go with the flow” and he must have a plan and I think that makes him focused. So, I admire that.

What I am attracted to most in him is that he is complete opposite of me yet we have similar interests and goals on nearly every level.

Anyway, almost right away, I was ready to date him and I approached him. He said “no” and nothing else. So, I backed off a little and just started talking to him a little every day and I learned that he isn’t going to do ANYTHING that he doesn’t think about and come to a conclusion about on his own, but when he does he shows up fully. He is a man of his word.


Yes.


So I haven’t brought up dating to him in nearly 5 or 6 months so 2 days ago, he brought it up. He explained to me that he works a lot (which he does, about 4 jobs…crazy) and he is about to buy a home. But that he wants to date me, and can’t see where in the long run how I will tolerate for very long his crazy schedule. And based on his past relationships the women end up resenting him because of it.

It’s pretty rare that he shares any thoughts or feelings beyond surface emotion so I was caught off guard and didn’t say much.

Today, I brought it up again, because not to kill a dead horse, but I felt as if we didn’t really finish the conversation…I asked him what he wanted, or what the ideal dating situation for him would be… and he said well I’ve dealt with this before and women all say the same thing but you all end up hating me because I don’t have time. And basically I told him that I understand what he’s telling me and I have been waiting for him for 10 months and I want to at least try it, or I can wait, or I can move on.

He said nothing expect, I have to go, but have a good night and I’ll talk to you later. And I was already pretty nervous having this convo with him, and when he said that I got flustered and said ok later…

So now I’m confused. I think he wants to think about what I said and come to me on some later date with his answer, but I don’t understand… was he nervous, or did I make him uncomfortable with my openness, or did he just not care?

Obviously as an ENFP, my thought process or the way I perceive him may be totally wrong. How can I better understand this ISTJ male?

I think you've got the right idea. I say definitely give it some time. It shouldn't take him anywhere near another half year, but I think he'll get back to you with his thoughts in a reasonable manner. Depending on how you came back to the conversation may have been emotionally hard on him or spiked his emotions to uncomfortable levels, thus his quick exit to calm down or celebrate in secret, lol.

[batumi]

Ok you have my full attention and then some. Your post is soooo familiar to me in so many ways. He will talk with you later about it. On his time schedule. And I think if you date this man you should expect things to move very slowly for some time.
And oh let me see, there are some good tips on this board for dealing with this type.
I found them to be quite handy actually.
Good luck and contact me anytime if you want to talk more. I am six months into the most fascinating relationship I have ever experienced with an ISTJ man.

[Cimarron]

ArbiterDewey already covered good points.

So now I’m confused. I think he wants to think about what I said and come to me on some later date with his answer, but I don’t understand… was he nervous, or did I make him uncomfortable with my openness, or did he just not care? Hard to tell if he cares, but I think you made a good observation that he went out of his way to share his feelings with you. Now, depending on how you brought this topic back up, you might have surprised him. :blush: If you just switched to it too suddenly, he was probably not ready for it...

If he has feelings for you, it was probably completely out of nervousness. First thing is just to let him think things through, I would say.

Edit: As Batumi says, don't expect this relationship to move quickly. But that doesn't mean he doesn't care about you! :) (You know, if things get that far.)

[Beat]

PinkIce, what was the reason given behind his initial "no" answer? Was it his busy schedule or was there even one stated?

Does he give any signs ever that suggest he has more than friendly feelings toward you? Needless to say, I bet he feels fortunate to have you in his life. One of my best friends is a female ENFP. You guys rock and bring a good element in an ISTJ relationship. Kind of like sunshine :D.

Commitment can be hard when it comes to romantic interest. I guess we want to make sure all our ducks are lined up and that things aren't going to go to shit. We're cautious and very analytical typically. As for his situation, I really don't know though. It could be anything...

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

I can relate to you here. I'm currently in a 'stall pattern' with an ISTJ. We've been friends for a year and a half, worked together for much of that time, and eventually I ended up developing feelings for him. I'd read some tentative 'I'm interested' vibes from him on occasion but the first time the idea of dating came up he responded with a 'let time decide' kind of answer.

As a J, it seems that the whole 'leave it up in the air' thing would have been frustrating for him (I know it was for me) but he seemed to be very at peace with the idea. In work aspects, he's very decisive and quick to make things happen, but on a personal level he's very skittish.

[Beat]

I totally fed this to my ex-gf a lot. The "I don't know where things are going, time will tell" sort of thing. I frustrated the hell out her... :/

I don't know what we're waiting on when this happens, but like I said, it's that commitment when we aren't set that makes us feel uneasy.

PinkIce, it could just be that he is legitimately busy and doesn't want to make a commitment when he fears that it won't work out in the long run. I can be a cop out myself in a few areas in life, where if I'm not confident in the success of something, I'll just throw it out or put it off.

[INTJMom]

...
So now I’m confused. I think he wants to think about what I said and come to me on some later date with his answer, but I don’t understand… was he nervous, or did I make him uncomfortable with my openness, or did he just not care?

Obviously as an ENFP, my thought process or the way I perceive him may be totally wrong. How can I better understand this ISTJ male?
He's saying he's not planning on making time for you in his schedule.

[Penguin]

i really do believe him when he said what he did, and it seems a typical ISTJ thing, and I am pretty certain that he will do as much as possible to make an eventual relationship work
good luck with it:), ISTJ's are really great people if you know how to handle them

[Hmm]

He's saying he's not planning on making time for you in his schedule.

If it were me, I would take it this way too. This is what he said literally and I would not assume anything else.

[Cimarron]

If it were me, I would take it this way too. This is what he said literally and I would not assume anything else.
Hmm...then how come all the male ISTJs just missed that? That is strange.

[Hmm]

Hmm...then how come all the male ISTJs just missed that? That is strange.

Are you male too?

[Jennifer]

I had this ISTJ guy interested in me recently.

He was really good at talking on the phone.
He was courteous and respectful and polite.
He was thoughtful and intelligent and articulate.
He didn't want to impose.
And he was willing to talk just about any subject.

I did notice on the phone that he would give me advice -- like when I told him I had hurt my foot, and he told me I should really see a doctor, etc. etc.
That partly felt nice to have him look out for me, but it also felt somewhat patronizing because I am fully capable of deciding whether or not to see a doctor and I felt like he was admonishing me a little bit.

What happened the one time we tried to get together, though, is that he had his set ways of doing things and the sort of life he wanted to lead, and I realized very quickly that he was set in those ways and did not want to budge.
He was very happy having his own little pocket world, his own little house by himself, and he might include someone from the outside who he liked, to come in, but he controlled the environment and had made it just the way he liked it, and any time I inadvertently bumped up against those boundaries, he put the fix on it.

He consistently would refer to things I did as, "Wow, that just sounds like too much energy."

He definitely had a set schedule. I asked him to meet me for coffee on a Monday evening, and despite being single and having nothing else to do, he just said he doesn't do things during the week, that's not his schedule, even if on the weekends he'll stay up until 3am commonly. There were other things too that were similar (i.e., he had no LOGICAL reason to not do them, they just did not conform to his chosen schedule).

So that's what I noticed: He was a very sweet, very respectful, very considerate guy who also kept a fairly neat house and had things basically in their place... but he did not like to have things moved out of the place he had put them in. He had created his world and did not want it to be modified, although he wasn't rude about it.

I bet he'd be utterly faithful, utterly responsible, utterly kind. But he didn't really like risk, he didn't really like expending energy, and he didn't really like change. And he wasn't really happy about the last gf, who had decided she wanted someone more active; he was disparaging of her choices, although when he told me, I was thinking, "hmm, I can understand why she did that."

[Cimarron]

Are you male too?
Haha, yeah.

I bet he'd be utterly faithful, utterly responsible, utterly kind. But he didn't really like risk, he didn't really like expending energy, and he didn't really like change. And he wasn't really happy about the last gf, who had decided she wanted someone more active; he was disparaging of her choices, although when he told me, I was thinking, "hmm, I can understand why she did that." Yeah, that whole post was a good analysis, of strong points and of potential relationship flaws. The part I quoted has been very true in my experience. He may have tried harder to compromise, but it would've been uncomfortable for him to even try, I bet.

[Hmm]

Well see, the thing is, he explained that he's been through this a few times in the past with other women, so if it were me, I would think why would it be any different with me? If I were emotionally capable of it, I would be his friend though because he seems to still want/need that.

[Jennifer]

... The part I quoted has been very true in my experience. He may have tried harder to compromise, but it would've been uncomfortable for him to even try, I bet.

Yes, and that is the thing: Is it WORTH that much investment for at least one of the partners to deal with so much discomfort in a LTR? Each person must decide that for themselves, but in general, I don't think it is.

...He said nothing expect, I have to go, but have a good night and I’ll talk to you later. And I was already pretty nervous having this convo with him, and when he said that I got flustered and said ok later…

That part made me laugh -- the last conversation I had with this guy, I called him at the start of a 2hr car ride to talk, and he said, "Uh, I'm ordering a pizza online," and he ended up hanging up within 30 seconds and never called me back. (I was like, wth??? The last two conversations we had, we had talked for hours.)

I definitely felt like I was breaking his style.

Because I know that if I wanted to talk to someone but was ordering a pizza, I'd say, "Hey, can I call you back in a minute after I order this pizza?"

He just ended the whole conversation.
Alas.
More love's labours lost.

I find it really funny now, though.

anyway, I agree with the consensus: He was basically saying, "I've heard this before, and apparently how I interact with you, you always want more than I can give, and I'm not going to change, so let's not waste our time."

[hermeticdancer]

What is the point of trying to guess what he is saying? You should be able to ask him. Let him know what helps you, and what action he can take...coach him on how to give feedback you need. (good luck with that)
He sounds highly introverted, and like a workaholic. If this kind of pattern continues (you wanting to emotional support, and openness, and him going into retreat and silence) it will become very frustrating for you. Two people should be able to understand each other and support each other in a relationship. You have to understand him, and he you, and except eachother for it to work. He is private, take time alone to think, and doesn't like to make decisions based on emotion. You want immediate dialogue, openness, emotional support and feedback. It will feel like he is putting you on the back burner unsure about the relationship, working all the time and his focus is on HIMSELF. He is confused how to communicate with you and what you want. As others have said, take him at his word.
In some respects it takes a lot of emotional energy and reserve to talk to an ENFP, and his approach is to listen to what you have to say, and then try and fix it. If he starts wanting to fix all your 'problems' then you'll know he's really into you.

[Hmm]

The OP never really said whether or not she would begin to resent him if they were together for having little time for her and such a busy work schedule and for planning things so much. I think that is what he wants to know.

[hermeticdancer]

I have had a hard time with my ISTJ bf.
He doesn't understand me, and has admitted it over and over. He claims that he is simple and that he doesn't need to be analyzed to understand, that he's very basic. Perhaps it's true, which is the scary part.

I just have trouble connecting to him emotionally, and I feel like I have to coach him, and that is emotionally exhausting. I feel like I don't get the feedback that I need, and that he is not interested in my feelings. Which is probably true. So this leaves me to think the worst.
The fights are the worst though, when he goes from being nice, to an outburst of anger and starts catastrophizing about everything, you would think it was armageddon. I actially dont find him to be calm and stable at all. Maybe half the time, but I see an angery insecure person, who wants secruity, and I am the one who is providing it.
I dont feel like he is the Rock at all...
Not all ISTJs are alike, though, which I understand.

[hermeticdancer]

I don't want to be a dick since I don't really know the whole situation, but this is what I see.

He's attracted to you, but too insecure to really do anything.
You're attracted to him because he's not doing anything (inadvertently teasing you)

Very true. That's why I gotta love INTJs. (their minds anyway!)

[Jennifer]

I have had a hard time with my ISTJ bf.
He doesn't understand me, and has admitted it over and over. He claims that he is simple and that he doesn't need to be analyzed to understand, that he's very basic. Perhaps it's true, which is the scary part.

That might be something. Maybe he actually is very straight-forward but N's complicate things unnecessarily.

I just have trouble connecting to him emotionally, and I feel like I have to coach him, and that is emotionally exhausting. I feel like I don't get the feedback that I need, and that he is not interested in my feelings. Which is probably true. So this leaves me to think the worst.

That sounds realistic too. It's not that he doesn't care, but you both do not speak the same language.

So he doesn't give you the cues you need to know he cares. ANd he doesn't know he's not. Nor could he figure them out easily on his own.

I just remembered that this guy also said a few times that he did not like girls who "created drama." I said I wasn't a drama creator, but I'm wondering how severe now his idea of "drama" is -- basically a woman asking him for cues that he doesn't understand? Is that drama to him? Hmm....

The fights are the worst though, when he goes from being nice, to an outburst of anger and starts catastrophizing about everything, you would think it was armageddon. I actially dont find him to be calm and stable at all. Maybe half the time, but I see an angery insecure person, who wants secruity, and I am the one who is providing it.

Possibly. Except he might see you as the one who destabilized it all to start with. Because you don't play by the rules he sees as rational.

That Ne inferior is very wicked for untrained ISTJs and ISFJs. They can start projecting wildly and have lots of paranoid ideas about what might happen, rather than more plausible iNtuitions.

Anyway, I'm sorry, I was still thinking in terms of me and not in terms of ENFP when I was responding, and so maybe I was not addressing ENFP-oriented issues.

[hermeticdancer]

I think there is a lust thing going on between ISTJ's and ENFPs. There are a lot of pheromones flying around, and the sex is good. I think that's the attraction. ISTJ men are sexy, and usually handsome because they are clean and they usually take care of their appearance.
I just don't know about long term compatibility when things get serious. (sorry to wander off message)
Anybody want to talk me down?

[2XtremeENFP]

It seems like he is stalling because all of his past experience with girls have gotten mad at all of this time being occupied....
Sometimes ISTJs need to quit relying on the past and just TRY something new :BangHead: Not every situation is the same

[Jack Flak]

It seems like he is stalling because all of his past experience with girls have gotten mad at all of this time being occupied....
Sometimes ISTJs need to quit relying on the past and just TRY something new :BangHead: Not every situation is the same
Says the ENFP! Clockwork.

[hermeticdancer]

That Ne inferior is very wicked for untrained ISTJs and ISFJs. They can start projecting wildly and have lots of paranoid ideas about what might happen, rather than more plausible iNtuitions.

Anyway, I'm sorry, I was still thinking in terms of me and not in terms of ENFP when I was responding, and so maybe I was not addressing ENFP-oriented issues.

No offense taken, actually, your feedback is helpful. I get what you are saying.

Im just trying to develop the issues, and of course, inject my personal problems into the conversation. :)

[2XtremeENFP]

Says the ENFP! Clockwork.

Haha I know it's typical for me to think this way.. haha, I really just cant understand ISTJs :(

[INTJMom]

...
So I haven’t brought up dating to him in nearly 5 or 6 months so 2 days ago, he brought it up. He explained to me that he works a lot (which he does, about 4 jobs…crazy) and he is about to buy a home. But that he wants to date me, and can’t see where in the long run how I will tolerate for very long his crazy schedule. And based on his past relationships the women end up resenting him because of it.

It’s pretty rare that he shares any thoughts or feelings beyond surface emotion so I was caught off guard and didn’t say much.

Today, I brought it up again, because not to kill a dead horse, but I felt as if we didn’t really finish the conversation…I asked him what he wanted, or what the ideal dating situation for him would be… and he said well I’ve dealt with this before and women all say the same thing but you all end up hating me because I don’t have time. And basically I told him that I understand what he’s telling me and I have been waiting for him for 10 months and I want to at least try it, or I can wait, or I can move on.
...
Quoting the right parts this time.
This is what I see:
He's saying his schedule is busy - and as Jennifer so eloquently described - I believe he's stuck in his way of doing things, and is saying he wouldn't change his schedule for anyone. He doesn't want to be asked or expected to change it.

You have to decide if you are willing to be an appendage in his life.
There's a saying - "Women marry a guy hoping he will change, men marry a gal hoping she won't change. Not that you're talking about marriage, but I'm just pointing out the "secretly hoping he changes" kind of thinking, just in case. It usually doesn't work.

The other thing is what you said about being willing to move on.
He doesn't sound like someone you can't live without. Perhaps you'd be a lot happier with someone who delights your heart so incredibly that you just couldn't imagine living without him.

I certainly understand, though, why you would be attracted to him.
I know of many happy INFP/ISTJ couples.

[Cimarron]

Sometimes ISTJs need to quit relying on the past and just TRY something new :BangHead:
No U! :mad:

The situation Hermit's describing sounds like an ISTJ with some problems he needs to sort through first. (And Jennifer: Aha, so that is how Ne works! I thought so, and this helps with the other threads I've been keeping an eye on...)

I had an ENFP girlfriend one time, and she was a lot of fun to spend time with, but she could be very frustrating and exhausting. It didn't last long, in my case.

[hermeticdancer]

No U! :mad:



I had an ENFP girlfriend one time, and she was a lot of fun to spend time with, but she could be very frustrating and exhausting. It didn't last long, in my case.

Cimarron,

What types do you find attractive personally?

Just curious, as Im studying psychology and Im interested in people's personality's, and relationships.

Thanks

[Cimarron]

You mean by coincidence? Or you mean first considering all the personality types, which would I prefer/be attracted to, as a general rule?

[Rachelinpa]

I am reminded of my ISTJ roommate and his decision-making, including those regarding romantic relationships.

I often ask ISTJ-roommate (with great enthusiasm), "What are you waiting for?!!" And he says (in a dry matter-of-fact tone), "I don't know. It's pending." "Hmm... you have a lot of pending matters, it seems," I say.

Truth is, I am not bothered by his deceleration unless I am directly affected by the awaited decision. In fact, our dialogue kind of entertains me.

Sometimes I can convince ISTJ to take a deadline in less pressure-filled situations like switching the cable or continuing our Blockbuster subscription. Usually though, as others have pointed out, he stubbornly works on his own timetable. My theory is he primarily waits because he can only concentrate on one monumental task at a time (which a relationship certainly is).

Anyway, he took months to tell this girl he wanted to date her. And, it's not like he didn't have the opportunity or that he was afraid to be vulnerable. He just waited. And waited. And waited. For what seemed to be eternal and for no apparent reason. He would come home and sheepishly admit, "Rach, you're going to be disappointed in me... I didn't tell her."

I don't know what we're waiting on when this happens, but like I said, it's that commitment when we aren't set that makes us feel uneasy.

The reason for waiting is mostly inexplicable, but it does seem to be a trend.

[PinkIceTD]

PinkIce, what was the reason given behind his initial "no" answer? Was it his busy schedule or was there even one stated?

Does he give any signs ever that suggest he has more than friendly feelings toward you? Needless to say, I bet he feels fortunate to have you in his life. One of my best friends is a female ENFP. You guys rock and bring a good element in an ISTJ relationship. Kind of like sunshine :D.

Commitment can be hard when it comes to romantic interest. I guess we want to make sure all our ducks are lined up and that things aren't going to go to shit. We're cautious and very analytical typically. As for his situation, I really don't know though. It could be anything...
At first he didn't give any reason just no. The one day I was talking to him and I asked if he wanted to hang out with me and some of my friends but he knows them too so I thought maybe it would be so much pressure and he said i can't i have to work. THen he was like. Unless you like punishment, I don't think you want me because I'm always working.

Yes he does show interest in me further than friendship. He told me that when he does decide to start dating again that he isn't dating casually, that it will be seriously and eventually a wife. I'm 25 and he's 29 so he asks me alot about what I want as far as relationships, he asks alot about marriage( as far as when ,what kind of house I want, etc), we talk about sex (haven't done it together).

So, I don't think men would ask those type of questions if they weren't interested...

[PinkIceTD]

I had this ISTJ guy interested in me recently.

He was really good at talking on the phone.
He was courteous and respectful and polite.
He was thoughtful and intelligent and articulate.
He didn't want to impose.
And he was willing to talk just about any subject.

I did notice on the phone that he would give me advice --

Wow, that sounds like you actually know my friend...



He consistently would refer to things I did as, "Wow, that just sounds like too much energy."

He definitely had a set schedule. I asked him to meet me for coffee on a Monday evening, and despite being single and having nothing else to do, he just said he doesn't do things during the week, that's not his schedule, even if on the weekends he'll stay up until 3am commonly. There were other things too that were similar (i.e., he had no LOGICAL reason to not do them, they just did not conform to his chosen schedule).

So that's what I noticed: He was a very sweet, very respectful, very considerate guy who also kept a fairly neat house and had things basically in their place... but he did not like to have things moved out of the place he had put them in. He had created his world and did not want it to be modified, although he wasn't rude about it.

I bet he'd be utterly faithful, utterly responsible, utterly kind. But he didn't really like risk, he didn't really like expending energy, and he didn't really like change. And he wasn't really happy about the last gf, who had decided she wanted someone more active; he was disparaging of her choices, although when he told me, I was thinking, "hmm, I can understand why she did that."

This is my first time dealing with an ISTJ period and I know that in the end people are people, but are these kind of characteristics universal, because that sound exactly like my friend. IT's a bit scary.

[bluemonday]

I am reminded of my ISTJ roommate and his decision-making, including those regarding romantic relationships.

Anyway, he took months to tell this girl he wanted to date her. And, it's not like he didn't have the opportunity or that he was afraid to be vulnerable. He just waited. And waited. And waited. For what seemed to be eternal and for no apparent reason. He would come home and sheepishly admit, "Rach, you're going to be disappointed in me... I didn't tell her."

The reason for waiting is mostly inexplicable, but it does seem to be a trend.

Umhmm. I had one like this once. They can be v. perverse. We were living together in the same hotel whilst working in the States. We got on really well and 'cos we didn't really know other people locally spent a lot of time together, drinking and baring our souls. But if I initiated things - asking him to hang out, go out to dinner, whatever, the more important it was to me, the less he was prepared to do it. Plus, he would always blow me off for Seinfield or The Simpsons. When I was in two minds about coming back home, everyone else told me they wanted me to stay, except him. And his was the only opinion that really mattered. I figured he wasn't into me at all. Then I left to go back home and he was in pieces. He told me later he didn't think he was good enough for me. Silly boy.

[PinkIceTD]

What is the point of trying to guess what he is saying? You should be able to ask him. Let him know what helps you, and what action he can take...coach him on how to give feedback you need. (good luck with that)
He sounds highly introverted, and like a workaholic. If this kind of pattern continues (you wanting to emotional support, and openness, and him going into retreat and silence) it will become very frustrating for you. Two people should be able to understand each other and support each other in a relationship. You have to understand him, and he you, and except eachother for it to work. He is private, take time alone to think, and doesn't like to make decisions based on emotion. You want immediate dialogue, openness, emotional support and feedback. It will feel like he is putting you on the back burner unsure about the relationship, working all the time and his focus is on HIMSELF. He is confused how to communicate with you and what you want. As others have said, take him at his word.
In some respects it takes a lot of emotional energy and reserve to talk to an ENFP, and his approach is to listen to what you have to say, and then try and fix it. If he starts wanting to fix all your 'problems' then you'll know he's really into you.

I knew this was coming from an ENFP before I looked based on the first sentence alone. That is EXACTLY the way I feel. I want him to TALK and just TELL me is going on. BUt I know that isn't happening...but I take in everything that people have to say and it's interesting hearing what the ISTJs are saying.

I only feel sometimes like I'm putting so much effort into understanding his feelings or thoughts or whatever and not getting the results as quickly as I want them.

[PinkIceTD]

The OP never really said whether or not she would begin to resent him if they were together for having little time for her and such a busy work schedule and for planning things so much. I think that is what he wants to know.

No actually I would not.

And I've told him that, but I don't think words count as much as my actions do with him.

[PinkIceTD]

Very true. That's why I gotta love INTJs. (their minds anyway!)

I saw that and I agree too...sadly

[hermeticdancer]

You mean by coincidence? Or you mean first considering all the personality types, which would I prefer/be attracted to, as a general rule?

Yes, considering all the personality types, which would you prefer/be attracted to, as a general rule?

Do you prefer thinking types? Sensing types, do you like intuitives?

For example:
I've noticed as an ENFP/ENTP female that I enjoy thinking types that are introverted slightly. Someone who is too extroverted or too feeling doesnt appeal to me, in a relationship, maybe for a friend.

[PinkIceTD]

It seems like he is stalling because all of his past experience with girls have gotten mad at all of this time being occupied....
Sometimes ISTJs need to quit relying on the past and just TRY something new :BangHead: Not every situation is the same

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY.

[Rachelinpa]

I feel like this will be one of the costs for you (in the relationship) going forward if you guys ended up dating. I think it definitely depends on how much you value being understood, but it seems you are frustrated with the lack of open communication already and you aren't even dating yet! Maybe part of his hesitation to jump in is related to your understandable differences.

For me, ENFP, I often feel emotional understanding is vital. I don't know if I could survive without it. As much as I adore the ISTJ faithfulness, stability, friendly face to the world and caretaking abilities, I think the lack of emotional understanding would make me miserable. I flip-flop though. I like both sets of qualities. I WANT THEM ALL. Ha.

And, don't get me wrong, I'm all for differences cause I think it can make your relationship stronger, but at the same time...

Just a thought.

[INTJMom]

... I don't think words count as much as my actions do with him.
You are exactly right.

[hermeticdancer]

PinkIced tea,
You sound really understanding of him and the way he is, really flexible and really accommodating. It's hard being with your opposite.

Isn't it hard to not want to change him, and just accept him as he is?

My thing is that I want my ISTJ bf to relax, I:hug:ve noticed he has a hard time,
I want for him to:
*Relax
*validate my feelings
*be present more

[hermeticdancer]

For me, ENFP, I often feel emotional understanding is vital. I don't know if I could survive without it. As much as I adore the ISTJ faithfulness, stability, friendly face to the world and caretaking abilities, I think the lack of emotional understanding would make me miserable.
Just a thought.
:nice:
So true.

[PinkIceTD]

PinkIced tea,
You sound really understanding of him and the way he is, really flexible and really accommodating. It's hard being with your opposite.

Isn't it hard to not want to change him, and just accept him as he is?

My thing is that I want my ISTJ bf to relax, I:hug:ve noticed he has a hard time,
I want for him to:
*Relax
*validate my feelings
*be present more

Well yeah at first, it was like we were clashing all the time because he wouldn't talk and he said I asked too many questions lol...so I thought instead of us both being stubborn, I tried to think as he does...and while I don't agree with it, its easier for me to understand where he's coming from. Or that for him to know what I want, giving him emotional cues will get us no where because he just isn't going to pick up on it. He takes me very literal, like sometimes I can be sarcastic and he not get it right away and take what I say literally.

So, I learned to always say what I mean with him. He is learning to understand my humor and me more, I think. I just feel like the way I learned to deal with him so quickly, he isn't going to learn the same with me because he isn't an NF. But he is learning.

I don't want him to change at all, I've learned alot from him, and I like him the way he is. But yeah I think he needs to relax and be present more def.

[ArbiterDewey]

it seems you are frustrated with the lack of open communication already and you aren't even dating yet!

I really depends how you approach the communication. I'm having a problem with my g/f, type unknown E?F?. She always starts up conversation with an emotional question/remark that sparks my emotions, but drains my energy. It's like, "We just started this conversation, couldn't we work into emotions slower? It's time for breakfast, damnit." lol


For me, ENFP, I often feel emotional understanding is vital. I don't know if I could survive without it. As much as I adore the ISTJ faithfulness, stability, friendly face to the world and caretaking abilities, I think the lack of emotional understanding would make me miserable. I flip-flop though. I like both sets of qualities. I WANT THEM ALL. Ha.


We really have no idea what we're missing half of the time.

[PinkIceTD]

I really depends how you approach the communication. I'm having a problem with my g/f, type unknown E?F?. She always starts up conversation with an emotional question/remark that sparks my emotions, but drains my energy. It's like, "We just started this conversation, couldn't we work into emotions slower? It's time for breakfast, damnit." lol

Yeah...I knw I do that too. I really don't know any other way to start a conversation.

[Bella]

Well yeah at first, it was like we were clashing all the time because he wouldn't talk and he said I asked too many questions lol...so I thought instead of us both being stubborn, I tried to think as he does...and while I don't agree with it, its easier for me to understand where he's coming from. Or that for him to know what I want, giving him emotional cues will get us no where because he just isn't going to pick up on it. He takes me very literal, like sometimes I can be sarcastic and he not get it right away and take what I say literally.

So, I learned to always say what I mean with him. He is learning to understand my humor and me more, I think. I just feel like the way I learned to deal with him so quickly, he isn't going to learn the same with me because he isn't an NF. But he is learning.

I don't want him to change at all, I've learned alot from him, and I like him the way he is. But yeah I think he needs to relax and be present more def.

Yes, I'm sure he is willing to learn, if you spell things out for him. It's not unwillingness....

As for wanting him to be more relaxed...pfft, good luck with that.

[ArbiterDewey]

Yeah...I knw I do that too. I really don't know any other way to start a conversation.

"Hi, how are you?" works wonders (seriously and sarcastically.) Get involved in conversation normally, as though you were talking to a friend, then throw in a question like, "How do you feel?" or wait for us to bring it up. NEVER ask "What are you thinking right now?...*pause*...*waiting*...*impatience*..." because, especially if you're long winded, I'm not thinking of anything. I'm listening and processing/analyzing what has been said. I can interject thoughts as I deem them necessary, but otherwise I'm not actively thinking of something else. Rarely can I answer this question because I need silence and time to do emotional thinking, if that makes sense. (I'm aware of the oxymoron)

The biggest reason I'm against, "what are you thinking right now?" is that that is not the question being asked. It is really, "You're thinking about me, right? What about me are you thinking about?" And, just as a heads up, I cant read minds...so I sit around mentioning things I'm actually trying to think, completely oblivious to the non-existent question that I'm expected to answer.

Emotional validation is confusing because it is a gray area...never black and white. I don't know the cues for said responses, why? I just don't. They don't come to me instinctively as they do to most.

Kinda ranted here unintentionally, y'all will have to excuse me. :D If it applies; great, if not; sorry.

[Bella]

I really depends how you approach the communication. I'm having a problem with my g/f, type unknown E?F?. She always starts up conversation with an emotional question/remark that sparks my emotions, but drains my energy. It's like, "We just started this conversation, couldn't we work into emotions slower? It's time for breakfast, damnit." lol



We really have no idea what we're missing half of the time.

I also get all freaked out at emotional interrogation but a part of me enjoys it.

[Bella]

"Hi, how are you?" works wonders (seriously and sarcastically.) Get involved in conversation normally, as though you were talking to a friend, then throw in a question like, "How do you feel?" or wait for us to bring it up. NEVER ask "What are you thinking right now?...*pause*...*waiting*...*impatience*..." because, especially if you're long winded, I'm not thinking of anything. I'm listening and processing/analyzing what has been said. I can interject thoughts as I deem them necessary, but otherwise I'm not actively thinking of something else. Rarely can I answer this question because I need silence and time to do emotional thinking, if that makes sense. (I'm aware of the oxymoron)

The biggest reason I'm against, "what are you thinking right now?" is that that is not the question being asked. It is really, "You're thinking about me, right? What about me are you thinking about?" And, just as a heads up, I cant read minds...so I sit around mentioning things I'm actually trying to think, completely oblivious to the non-existent question that I'm expected to answer.

Emotional validation is confusing because it is a gray area...never black and white. I don't know the cues for said responses, why? I just don't. They don't come to me instinctively as they do to most.

Kinda ranted here unintentionally, y'all will have to excuse me. :D If it applies; great, if not; sorry.

For real? 'What are you thinking about' means 'are you thinking about me?'
Who knew...

[ArbiterDewey]

For real? 'What are you thinking about' means 'are you thinking about me?'
Who knew...

:P

[Bella]

I just realized, that might sound sarcastic. I wasn't being sarcastic.

[ArbiterDewey]

I just realized, that might sound sarcastic. I wasn't being sarcastic.

:nice: lol. Yeah, it took me time to realize that was what she was really asking. It bugs the shit out of me. I go out of my way to validate one day, then day two arrives and she needs it all over again... "But I told you all of this yesterday...are my opinions supposed to have changed overnight? They don't do that."

I mean...would she really prefer me to write up some bullshit fluff and repeat it with different words each day? I could, but it wouldn't be the truth. After awhile it would become a response set. It'd come so "naturally," that I wouldn't have to think of the meaning. They'd just be words...and words mean nothing without context.

[Rachelinpa]

He takes me very literal, like sometimes I can be sarcastic and he not get it right away and take what I say literally.

Hehe.

She always starts up conversation with an emotional question/remark that sparks my emotions, but drains my energy. It's like, "We just started this conversation, couldn't we work into emotions slower? It's time for breakfast, damnit." lol

Yeeeaaahhh. Need for emotional understanding aside, I can find this communication totally endearing, especially if (WHEN) the ISTJ learns to laugh at my interrogative enthusiasm and my delight in poking fun at his unswerving mindsets and methods of life.

I love the ISTJ. So literal. Funny, funny!

[Rachelinpa]

I also get all freaked out at emotional interrogation but a part of me enjoys it.

HAHA! Yeah, you do!

[Bella]

:nice: lol. Yeah, it took me time to realize that was what she was really asking. It bugs the shit out of me. I go out of my way to validate one day, then day two arrives and she needs it all over again... "But I told you all of this yesterday...are my opinions supposed to have changed overnight? They don't do that."

I mean...would she really prefer me to write up some bullshit fluff and repeat it with different words each day? I could, but it wouldn't be the truth. After awhile it would become a response set. It'd come so "naturally," that I wouldn't have to think of the meaning. They'd just be words...and words mean nothing without context.

Do you know what her type is?

[hermeticdancer]

"Hi, how are you?" works wonders
NEVER ask "What are you thinking right now?... I'll sit around mentioning things I'm actually trying to think, completely oblivious to the non-existent question that I'm expected to answer.

Emotional validation is confusing.
I don't know the cues for said responses, why? I just don't. They don't come to me instinctively as they do to most.



I am sort of paraphrasing what you said here.

So are you saying ask HOW are you?

That is a form of validation actually, because you are acknowledging the other person. Why? Implies interrogation, and usually upsets people.

Validation is not something that comes naturally to everyone, even me. It takes practice, effort and the willingness to be vulnerable. It's about intimacy.

You don't have to validate someone all the time, but when they are expressing their emotions, (not everyday chores, ie. what to put on the shopping list etc.) it is good manners to do so.

Listening and simple phrases to acknowledge you are present will work.

The best examples are demonstrated in a book called:
"I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better"

Amazon.com: I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better: Gary Lundberg, Joy Lundberg: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Make-Everything-Better/dp/0140286438)

This book is very well written and simple, and helped me with interpersonal communication.

[Jennifer]

I mean...would she really prefer me to write up some bullshit fluff and repeat it with different words each day? I could, but it wouldn't be the truth. After awhile it would become a response set. It'd come so "naturally," that I wouldn't have to think of the meaning. They'd just be words...and words mean nothing without context.

The only comparable thing I can think of for me is that since I am so P, I am constantly flexing to the current situation.

So someone can affirm me on one day, but as more and more time passes, depending on what has happened in the meanwhile, that affirmation can lose power and/or become distorted... especially if my interactions with said person include the possibility of some negative things (based on events, or mistakes I have made, or things they've done/said that seem negative).

So affirmation DOES have a "half-life" for a P and the length of time it takes to lose power depends on the situation(s) that have occurred since the affirmation was given.

You have to periodically stoke the fire back up. At least with P's, there's a lot less chance you can just set the bar once and then not touch it again, you need to make allowance for the typical erosion of any positive strokes you might have given. I'm not talking on a "schedule," I'm simply talking about making sure you keep fueling the fire and don't let it fall away.

[ArbiterDewey]

Thanks for the responses. My concern is that every time we begin talking it always, inevitably ends up in a "what are you thinking?" or "what about me do you like the best?" or we'll trade, "I miss you" but her's has a "why" tacked on the end. It brings our conversation to a stand still and nothing else can get said for its duration. I literally fear having to sit through these now. I want to be with her, but this is unreasonable. Right?

Oh, and I guess it would help to say that we haven't been going out for long at all. A week at most. It's been shaky from the start.

*deep sigh*...

Another week of headache and I'm out.

[hermeticdancer]

Realistically when it comes to human emotions, you cannot just say something once, and then expect another person to not want to talk about it again.

example: (ISTJ to ENFP: I told you I loved you three weeks ago, why do I have to say it every night, when we talk? Don't you believe me? )

"I love you" followed by several converstaions about "How was your day? The weather is nice today? how is school? work?
It's like what Jennifer was saying, you need to 'stoke the fires.' and repeate yourself every so often, it doesn't undermine you, it makes the other person feel loved.

I personally listen for patterns, if I'm expecting someone to say something then when I don't hear it, I sense something is wrong.

Personally it's common preference among most human beings in a relationship.
Its nice to be told you are loved, and appreciated several times a week, to keep the other person aware of how you feel about them. Its hard to just go by actions. To ENFPs, words are very powerful.
We like honesty more than anything.

I like it when ISTjs show affection through back rubs, or asking how Im feeling, what im thinking. I find them to be good listeners.

[ArbiterDewey]

I'll get back to responding in a bit, I'm just bleh right now.

Oh, and sorry to the OP for hijacking your thread.

[Jennifer]

... "I love you" followed by several converstaions about "How was your day? The weather is nice today? how is school? work?
It's like what Jennifer was saying, you need to 'stoke the fires.' and repeate yourself every so often, it doesn't undermine you, it makes the other person feel loved.

I personally listen for patterns, if I'm expecting someone to say something then when I don't hear it, I sense something is wrong.

The "pattern" part rings true, I was having an awful time this week at work because I saw lots of potential patterns that suggested negative opinions of my performance despite overall having gotten explicit positive reviews in the past. It was bad enough that I was feeling very paranoid and fighting trying not to withdraw... but as soon as I got a few more data points to negate the bad intuitions I was experiencing, I was okay.

Data points do wonders to correct apprehension. Maybe NP is very susceptible. (Explanation: SP tends to just respond to the concrete data -- what actually is said, what actually is done. NP reads into the less specific impressions and potential underlying insinuations of things or their absence.)

[Cimarron]

example: (ISTJ to ENFP: I told you I loved you three weeks ago, why do I have to say it every night, when we talk? Don't you believe me? ) Yeah, that's how I always phrase it. But I've noticed that, somewhat hypocritically...Personally it's common preference among most human beings in a relationship. ...I kind of expect the other person in the relationship to do the same for me. So perhaps it's like you said, that everybody wants that affirmation, even if they don't feel the need to give it out themselves. I really try to level with them, though. It's slightly irritating (and to me kind of pointless), but if I know it'll make her feel better, I'll try. In the end, it'll be worth it, right? (This comes from my limited experience...don't take it too seriously.)

[hermeticdancer]

Thanks for the responses. My concern is that every time we begin talking it always, inevitably ends up in a "what are you thinking?" or "what about me do you like the best?" or we'll trade, "I miss you" but her's has a "why" tacked on the end. It brings our conversation to a stand still and nothing else can get said for its duration. I literally fear having to sit through these now. I want to be with her, but this is unreasonable. Right?

Oh, and I guess it would help to say that we haven't been going out for long at all. A week at most. It's been shaky from the start.

*deep sigh*...

Another week of headache and I'm out.

Ha, you are funny.

Only a week and you are already starting to get frustrated. It's good that you are aware of this. Pay attention to those things, it may be that you two are not compatible mentally and no amount of work, will fix it. Cause what may happen is you will start to tune her out, and ignore her after a while, and she will get increasing insecure and needy, because she isn't hearing what she wants to hear. Sound familiar.

I would give it some time. If it becomes uncomfortable or unbearable for you despite trying to communicate, then you know it's not going to work.

The important question to ask is...How does the person make you feel about yourself? In an ideal situation you will like yourself more, with a person you are compatible with. You know the feeling?

Tell her what you are really about in a nice way, just be honest and be yourself.

[hermeticdancer]

So perhaps it's like you said, that everybody wants that affirmation, even if they don't feel the need to give it out themselves. I really try to level with them, though. It's slightly irritating (and to me kind of pointless), but if I know it'll make her feel better, I'll try. In the end, it'll be worth it, right? (This comes from my limited experience...don't take it too seriously.)

If your goal is to have a healthy stable relationship, it's worth it to try and understand the other person. Showing them that you understand shows you care.


It seems like your having trouble seeing the point of it all.

[batumi]

a few more thoughts.....

Think of him as both uncertain about himself and what he has to offer you,
and also somewhat passive.
Passive in that he believes that if things will work out, they will work out.
Remember ISTJs are above all, stoic, and also pretty pessimistic toward
the future.
They're kind of like silent martyrs.

What you can do is slowly and carefully take the reigns.
Use lots of attachment skills. Make eye contact and smile
and be happy to see him.
But don't be too needy or clingy.
Give him space but be a joyful harbor for him when he
has time off work.
And make use of his need to be needed.
Go ahead and suggest doing something with him - make the
first move. Perhaps you can do it in a way that suggests
he is being helpful. Such as saying you really want to see
a movie or eat somewhere.
He wants to be helpful, productive, reliable.
And at first, he will probably mostly talk about work.

But hang in there, give it time and wait and see what
you discover down the road.
Keep in touch.

[PinkIceTD]

but her's has a "why" tacked on the end. .

I'm so sorry. My friend got extremely frustrated with me because I used to ask why ALL the time too. He used to say it was my favorite question.

I didn't realize it bothered him. He had to express to me how bothersome that question was...I hadn't realized I said it so much. You might have to endure one convo where you explain this to her, how it drains you. She will inevitably ask "why" it does, but if you tell her, and she cares and wants you, she will stop. Or at least try to.

[PinkIceTD]

So I talked to my friend tonight, and he brought it up, but indirectly. He basically said that he thought about it and decided that he wants to be able to "do it right" so he said I'd like to wait. I want him so I guess I gotta wait too.

[batumi]

So I talked to my friend tonight, and he brought it up, but indirectly. He basically said that he thought about it and decided that he wants to be able to "do it right" so he said I'd like to wait. I want him so I guess I gotta wait too.

It sounds like maybe you encounter him fairly often in some way?

[2XtremeENFP]

example: (ISTJ to ENFP: I told you I loved you three weeks ago, why do I have to say it every night, when we talk? Don't you believe me

LOL!! Sooooo True. This is exact.

I personally listen for patterns, if I'm expecting someone to say something then when I don't hear it, I sense something is wrong.


I do the same thing. I immediately ask what's wrong and they're like Nothing.. and I pester and pester cause I'm certain something's wrong!

I like it when ISTjs show affection through back rubs, or asking how Im feeling, what im thinking. I find them to be good listeners.

They are awesome at listening.. but their verbal feedback during a 'venting session' isn't so great. I usually get a "I see... man, that sucks. I'm sorry". All i can think is "Come On! I need more than that! Get emotional Like I'm getting emotion right now! BACK ME UP!"

[Metamorphosis]

So I talked to my friend tonight, and he brought it up, but indirectly. He basically said that he thought about it and decided that he wants to be able to "do it right" so he said I'd like to wait. I want him so I guess I gotta wait too.

I know that sucks. :(

Is he actually expecting you and him to just wait without talking to anyone else? That equals all the negative aspects of a relationship with none of the positive ones. Tell him to cowboy up.

[2XtremeENFP]

Is he actually expecting you and him to just wait without talking to anyone else? That equals all the negative aspects of a relationship with none of the positive ones. Tell him to cowboy up.


From my experience, it is a bad idea to rush an ISTJ or use guilt to try and get your way. if you WITHOUT A DOUBT want to wait for him then don't let him know right now that you feel this is unfair.

If he sees that you waiting for him is hurting you in anyway. He will view that as "unfair" then he will choose to not have you wait. ISTJs aren't selfish.

Don't rush him

[PinkIceTD]

It sounds like maybe you encounter him fairly often in some way?

Yeah, we talk almost everyday.:wubbie: I don't get to see him often, though. He is an excellent phone conversationalist though. I don't even like talking on phones much, I like face to face so I can read body languange...but I can talk to him for hours.

[PinkIceTD]

From my experience, it is a bad idea to rush an ISTJ or use guilt to try and get your way. if you WITHOUT A DOUBT want to wait for him then don't let him know right now that you feel this is unfair.

If he sees that you waiting for him is hurting you in anyway. He will view that as "unfair" then he will choose to not have you wait. ISTJs aren't selfish.

Don't rush him

Yeah I learned that much the hard way. I don't want to wait but I will because I want him. He sounded very decided when he said that, so I don't EXPECT him to change his mind. But if he does...:D

[ArbiterDewey]

Yeah, we talk almost everyday.:wubbie: I don't get to see him often, though. He is an excellent phone conversationalist though. I don't even like talking on phones much, I like face to face so I can read body languange...but I can talk to him for hours.

I'm kind of the opposite. I dislike the telephone, but I am a good conversationalist. :huh:

Yeah I learned that much the hard way. I don't want to wait but I will because I want him. He sounded very decided when he said that, so I don't EXPECT him to change his mind. But if he does...:angry:
lol

[ArbiterDewey]

Alright, assuming I can still use this thread for my problem, I have typed my g/f: ENFJ with BPD (http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx10.htm). I talked with her quite a bit last night, she was interested enough in reading my type description to want to know her own. She revealed to me after that that she had Borderline Personality Disorder. Read up the BPD link to understand a bulk of my difficulty. I don't know if I can give that much of myself that much of the time. It begins to hurt and feel as though I'm changing just to allow her to feel good, while I'm left feeling like hammered dog shit. I don't know...but I feel bad thinking that.

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

I am reminded of my ISTJ roommate and his decision-making, including those regarding romantic relationships.

I often ask ISTJ-roommate (with great enthusiasm), "What are you waiting for?!!" And he says (in a dry matter-of-fact tone), "I don't know. It's pending." "Hmm... you have a lot of pending matters, it seems," I say.

...

Sometimes I can convince ISTJ to take a deadline in less pressure-filled situations like switching the cable or continuing our Blockbuster subscription. Usually though, as others have pointed out, he stubbornly works on his own timetable. My theory is he primarily waits because he can only concentrate on one monumental task at a time (which a relationship certainly is).

Anyway, he took months to tell this girl he wanted to date her. And, it's not like he didn't have the opportunity or that he was afraid to be vulnerable. He just waited. And waited. And waited. For what seemed to be eternal and for no apparent reason. He would come home and sheepishly admit, "Rach, you're going to be disappointed in me... I didn't tell her."

The reason for waiting is mostly inexplicable, but it does seem to be a trend.

You know, after I posted the other day, I asked two ISTJ guys that work in my office if they'd ever told a girl that they would 'let time decide' on the relationship front, and both of them admitted to doing it repeatedly.

I asked them why, since they are both so task-oriented at everything else they would risk losing a woman that they liked by not telling her about it or by dragging out the 'courting' phase for so long. Their response? Because they can't control what the woman thinks. They both agreed wholeheartedly that their opinion doesn't matter in the situations that we're talking about here because they can't make someone else do something.

It is weird for me to think about pre-relationships in this way... almost as if they are standing still, holding their breath, waiting for some kind of inspiration to strike them when the 'time is right' to proceed. All the while they are watching the woman like a hawk, hoping she hangs around.

One of them said he had told his good friend that he would 'let time decide' with his current wife. I asked him if he was always 'waiting for the right time' how they eventually ended up together. He said "I sent her a pink teddy bear". Hehehe So apparently, he felt at some point that he could safely make his offer of connecting to her.

The whole idea seems preposterous to me. I've heard that INTJs want closure and decisions to be made, and maybe this is where the fallout happens, but I have discovered that I am much happier if I simply speak my mind and get it over with rather than holding it in. A kind of 'laying the cards on the table' kind of attitude that says 'Here is your chance, take it or leave it'. If they leave it, it hurts and it takes me a while to deal with the rejection, but I do feel better for at least having said something.

ISTJ's are weird. :shock: :D: :hug:

[Recoleta]

Sadly, even as a female ISTJ I relate to this thread a lot. I always wait it out until I think it's the right time...and I've never been the first to lay my feelings on the line. Granted, perhaps this is not as "socially unacceptable" for females as it is for males.

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

...and I've never been the first to lay my feelings on the line.

My ISTJ friend got ME to bear my heart and soul. That almost never happens :blush:

Originally Posted by PinkIceTD
So I talked to my friend tonight, and he brought it up, but indirectly. He basically said that he thought about it and decided that he wants to be able to "do it right" so he said I'd like to wait. I want him so I guess I gotta wait too.

Heres the part where I go 'huh?' I think its hilarious that it was another INTJ who said he needs to 'cowboy up'. Those were my thoughts exactly.

Who says you have to wait too? One of the things my co-workers said the other day was that they deeply believe in the mentality 'If you love something, let it go. If it comes back, it was yours, if it doesn't, it was never yours to begin with.'

I would recommend finding a social group, activity or otherwise to occupy your time with. Step back for a while and tone down the frequency and duration of your conversations. In other words, appear to get a life.

No one says you have to walk away... just go find a shady tree near the path and watch him from a distance for a while.

:newwink:

Edit: You know, I say this with such confidence because its what I've decided to do with my ISTJ dilemma... but I'm terrified that I'll never hear from him again *sigh*

[Bella]

After reading this, I do not ever want to be with an ISTJ.
Waiting....? For what? Better days?

[ArbiterDewey]

Alright, well we talked about exactly what I posted about earlier today and came to the conclusion that we're too different to be able to meet each other's needs comfortably, even though we want to be together. So we called it off. I am, in part, relieved and saddened.

Either way, I feel that this experience is extremely valuable.


Thanks everyone for your suggestions and advice, I really appreciate it all. :yes:

[Bella]

Ah, pooh....:hug:

[batumi]

Yeah, we talk almost everyday.:wubbie: I don't get to see him often, though. He is an excellent phone conversationalist though. I don't even like talking on phones much, I like face to face so I can read body languange...but I can talk to him for hours.

That is wonderful news. Hang in there. Keep chipping away at the future.
All of my "gains" have come very slowly with time, but they were very
enjoyable.

[batumi]

I don't know if I can give that much of myself that much of the time. It begins to hurt and feel as though I'm changing just to allow her to feel good, while I'm left feeling like hammered dog shit.

Heh, heh, I have felt like that with ENFJs who were not also BDP.

[PinkIceTD]

Edit: You know, I say this with such confidence because its what I've decided to do with my ISTJ dilemma... but I'm terrified that I'll never hear from him again *sigh*

Yeah, I thought looong and hard about the 'if you love something, let it go..." thing. But I too feel that even if he does want me he'll be like I guess it wasnt meant to be and I'll never hear from him again. ISTJs...you guys make dating so freaking hard.:BangHead:

[PinkIceTD]

Sorry to hear about you girlfriend Arbiter...

[PinkIceTD]

Quick question to the ISTJs, in my situation, would you suggest waiting and staying constant in his life would be a good idea. Or backing off like the INTJs suggest and letting him come to me?

[Bella]

I don't believe girls should run after boys, EVER!

[ArbiterDewey]

I don't believe girls should run after boys, EVER!

I disagree. Pursue him and wait if you want to. If not, don't. I can't speak for the guy, he may have a lot more on his plate than I can imagine.

[Recoleta]

I agree with Arbiter Dewey...you should wait. If you leave him now he'll likely think that you were too bummed out/scorned to stick around, and then will cut his losses and tell himself that it wasn't meant to be anyway. In my experience, ISTJ's have very little confidence when it comes to dating...and I think this was said earlier...we are not optimists in this arena. It takes someone special to break down our walls and prove to us that they are worth "the trouble." I think your chances are better if you stay.

Of course I say this with the intention that you don't lose your self-respect. Don't let him and his indecisiveness steamroller over you. There comes a certain point where you do just have to let them go and hope they'll come back if it's meant to be.

[PinkIceTD]

I don't believe girls should run after boys, EVER!

I also disagree, to an extent. If I didn't know that he actually liked me I wouldnt pursue him. But I normally like guys that don't appraoch right away so if I want someone I usually gotta go get him. Eventually they take some initiative

[PinkIceTD]

So, I was talking to my friend last night and we were talking about this girl that I'm kinda friends with. He doesn't like her..for whatever reasons. And last night he said so and I asked the inevitable "why?" He replied that she was aggravating and I said what do you mean...he replied because she's trouble and again I asked why, what do you mean...and he's like how many ways do you want me to say it? Anyway, my point is that this type of conversation happens alot with us. I was asking what has she done to you for you to feel this way and he ended up being pretty annoyed with me (surprise)

Often he says that things just are, and I want to know reasons. And usually he can't give me any because I don't know if he doesn't understand what I'm saying or if there truly are no reasons. But I think that is the problem with communicating some of the time with us. He will say something and I'm reading between lines that probably aren't even there. Or I'll say something meaning for him to get the hint and he takes what I say at face value (or pretends to as to avoid deep discussions)

Just an observation

[batumi]

In my experience, ISTJ's have very little confidence when it comes to dating...and I think this was said earlier...we are not optimists in this arena. It takes someone special to break down our walls and prove to us that they are worth "the trouble."

Thank you SOOO much for confirming this.
So so much.

[batumi]

So, I was talking to my friend last night and we were talking about this girl that I'm kinda friends with. He doesn't like her..for whatever reasons. And last night he said so and I asked the inevitable "why?" He replied that she was aggravating and I said what do you mean...he replied because she's trouble and again I asked why, what do you mean...and he's like how many ways do you want me to say it? Anyway, my point is that this type of conversation happens alot with us. I was asking what has she done to you for you to feel this way and he ended up being pretty annoyed with me (surprise)

Ah yes, we are all into Pygmalian you know.
Or did you know? The best books I have ever read re:MBTI are the Pygmalian series.

[helen]

Ah yes, we are all into Pygmalian you know.
Or did you know? The best books I have ever read re:MBTI are the Pygmalian series.

Is that the one where they analzye various works of literature and fictional characters in terms of MBTI? I remember reading another book that referred to such a series. I think it was called Pygmalian something or other. Who wrote it?

[PinkIceTD]

Ah yes, we are all into Pygmalian you know.
Or did you know? The best books I have ever read re:MBTI are the Pygmalian series.

not to seem ignorant...but what's pygmalian?

[Rachelinpa]

So, I was talking to my friend last night and we were talking about this girl that I'm kinda friends with. He doesn't like her..for whatever reasons. And last night he said so and I asked the inevitable "why?" He replied that she was aggravating and I said what do you mean...he replied because she's trouble and again I asked why, what do you mean...and he's like how many ways do you want me to say it? Anyway, my point is that this type of conversation happens alot with us. I was asking what has she done to you for you to feel this way and he ended up being pretty annoyed with me (surprise)

Often he says that things just are, and I want to know reasons. And usually he can't give me any because I don't know if he doesn't understand what I'm saying or if there truly are no reasons. But I think that is the problem with communicating some of the time with us. He will say something and I'm reading between lines that probably aren't even there. Or I'll say something meaning for him to get the hint and he takes what I say at face value (or pretends to as to avoid deep discussions)

Just an observation

Yeah! That definitely happens to me and the ISTJs, I know. I just don't ask anymore. I think it's cause they do not understand or have the vocabulary for it. Additionally, it would take a lot of energy to come up with an answer. It's annoying for both parties.

[PinkIceTD]

Yeah! That definitely happens to me and the ISTJs, I know. I just don't ask anymore. I think it's cause they do not understand or have the vocabulary for it. Additionally, it would take a lot of energy to come up with an answer. It's annoying for both parties.

lol, i was thinking that but i didn't want to say it for fear of sounding condescending.

[batumi]

not to seem ignorant...but what's pygmalian?

Pygmalion, and I am open to correction, but was a myth, Greek, I think.
A man was so tired of not finding the perfect woman in life that he sculpted
one and made her his perfect love.
Of course she was perfect but not alive, so it wasn't so great for him after all.
I think in the myth a god or something brought her to life....but the point is that in all relationships we are trying to transform the other person to some degree.

And there are a series of books about this called the Pygmalion Project.
With volumes for each major Keirsey type, Idealist, etc.

Guardians, like our ISTJ men, are often attracted to women they would like to help settle down. And make more like themselves.
According to the theory at least.
So perhaps your Guardian is trying to sort of help you be more stable, in his eyes, by suggesting that a friend is too wild for you or something.

[batumi]

Is that the one where they analzye various works of literature and fictional characters in terms of MBTI? I remember reading another book that referred to such a series. I think it was called Pygmalian something or other. Who wrote it?

My series says Stephen Montgomery. The Pygmalion Project.
(subtitled "Love and Coercion among the types", heh, heh)

Fascinating reading, if you like literature on the whole.

[batumi]

Or I'll say something meaning for him to get the hint and he takes what I say at face value (or pretends to as to avoid deep discussions)

:yes:

[Cimarron]

In regards to "reading between the lines" and "taking hints":

One thing that may help is to remember that trust is important, so I trust you and don't expect you to lie to me. If you don't say what you mean directly, it could be misconstrued as lying (or something similar). Honesty is direct, with no need to beat around the bush. Dishonesty is evasive and indirect. In most cases, I'll give the benefit of the doubt, and assume there was no "hidden meaning".

So on serious matters, I expect you to be direct. On not as serious matters, you don't have to be direct, but you still run the risk of miscommunication...

When you ask a question like "Why don't you like my friend?" and I answer "I don't know" or "she's aggravating", if you feel like that answer isn't enough, then it may be that I can't really find the words to express it fully and completely. It took me a while to teach myself to do this, to search for a fundamental reason why things like that bug me, to link the pieces together inside. And then, of course, to explain it in words to the person concerned.

Still agreeing with what's been said about relationships in recent posts, pretty much on the mark. :blush:

[batumi]

In regards to "reading between the lines" and "taking hints":

One thing that may help is to remember that trust is important, so I trust you and don't expect you to lie to me. If you don't say what you mean directly, it could be misconstrued as lying (or something similar). Honesty is direct, with no need to beat around the bush. Dishonesty is evasive and indirect. In most cases, I'll give the benefit of the doubt, and assume there was no "hidden meaning".

So on serious matters, I expect you to be direct. On not as serious matters, you don't have to be direct, but you still run the risk of miscommunication...


Good points and thanks for sharing them.
I have found with my current ISTJ that being calm and direct is normally
the best approach.
Now, tell us how to evoke passion and romance from men of your type.
:cheese:

[PinkIceTD]

Good points and thanks for sharing them.
I have found with my current ISTJ that being calm and direct is normally
the best approach.
Now, tell us how to evoke passion and romance from men of your type.
:cheese:

Yeah or is it only savings accounts and spread sheets that do it for you? j/k:hug:

[batumi]

Yeah or is it only savings accounts and spread sheets that do it for you? j/k:hug:

Perhaps Cimarron will agree to some personal counseling sessions to assist us.:D
We could ask Beat to help out too.

[Cimarron]

Good points and thanks for sharing them.
I have found with my current ISTJ that being calm and direct is normally
the best approach.
Now, tell us how to evoke passion and romance from men of your type.
:cheese:
Oh and as an addition to the "trust" thing, it works in reverse as well. This is probably pretty true for everyone, but if I tell you exactly how I feel, tell you everything I can, and then you still try to dig for deeper meaning in my words--that can imply that you don't believe me, that you don't trust me. And that's major. It's probably not news, but I thought I'd throw it in there.

Hmm...I don't know. That one's tougher to figure out. How to get an ISTJ passionate? I know I've gotten into it before, but I can't remember how (been a long time since I've had a girlfriend, truthfully). There's always something, though. It can be the simple things, like making a favorite meal--that's one of my favorites. :D But that wouldn't be "passionate", that'd just be full of the "warm fuzzy" feeling. Not quite as strong and lively. I'm really not the person to answer this question...

[batumi]

Hmm...I don't know. That one's tougher to figure out. How to get an ISTJ passionate? I know I've gotten into it before, but I can't remember how (been a long time since I've had a girlfriend, truthfully). There's always something, though. It can be the simple things, like making a favorite meal--that's one of my favorites. :D But that wouldn't be "passionate", that'd just be full of the "warm fuzzy" feeling. Not quite as strong and lively. I'm really not the person to answer this question...

Oh we will take warm-fuzzy, really. With gratitude.:nice:
Anything that gets us to warm-fuzzy is also helpful.
Are you saying when someone makes you a meal?

[Cimarron]

I'm talking specifically about favorite food, the one I never get to have. Making or getting, I suppose. But that's way too specific to work for everybody. We should wait for other people to give more advice in that area(at least I hope they do...no pressure, guys!).

Maybe trying new things together, but nothing too wild. I'm too much of a beginner at relationships in general to give you any sure advice.

[2XtremeENFP]

Yeah! That definitely happens to me and the ISTJs, I know. I just don't ask anymore. I think it's cause they do not understand or have the vocabulary for it. Additionally, it would take a lot of energy to come up with an answer. It's annoying for both parties


hahahaha.... I read somewhere that relationships between ENFP's and ISTJ's are usually successful because both parties are equally annoyed by one another.

[batumi]

Oh and as an addition to the "trust" thing, it works in reverse as well. This is probably pretty true for everyone, but if I tell you exactly how I feel, tell you everything I can, and then you still try to dig for deeper meaning in my words--that can imply that you don't believe me, that you don't trust me. And that's major. It's probably not news, but I thought I'd throw it in there.

I do see what you said above. And it is something I learned to do recently. Thank you.

I think what is hardest for us NFs in relationships with your type is the
apparent lack of concern about the relationship.
Because we tend to live it, you see, and your type apparently puts it on a
back burner and has a life outside of the relationship.:shock:
For instance my ISTJ is away at work right now, far away, and seems
not much concerned about me, I think/feel. He said he will call me when he returns, and that's that.
I have slowly trained him over the last six months to at least leave me a phone message now and then, so he is improving.
But if not for that, I doubt that I would hear from him until he got everything done that he needs to get done, including all household chores, etc.
and shopping, and anything else that might possibly need to get done in the next year, and THEN, he will call me and schedule some leisure time with me.

For me, and for most NFs I think, I would be calling him first and at least scheduling the time and then worrying about the other stuff.
Does this make sense to you? And thanks for your helpful input.

[PinkIceTD]

I do see what you said above. And it is something I learned to do recently. Thank you.

I think what is hardest for us NFs in relationships with your type is the
apparent lack of concern about the relationship.
Because we tend to live it, you see, and your type apparently puts it on a
back burner and has a life outside of the relationship.:shock:
For instance my ISTJ is away at work right now, far away, and seems
not much concerned about me, I think/feel. He said he will call me when he returns, and that's that.
I have slowly trained him over the last six months to at least leave me a phone message now and then, so he is improving.
But if not for that, I doubt that I would hear from him until he got everything done that he needs to get done, including all household chores, etc.
and shopping, and anything else that might possibly need to get done in the next year, and THEN, he will call me and schedule some leisure time with me.

For me, and for most NFs I think, I would be calling him first and at least scheduling the time and then worrying about the other stuff.
Does this make sense to you? And thanks for your helpful input.

its like we're talking about the same man...

[Cimarron]

Hehe, I do know what you're talking about, because I kind of do it to everyone when I'm busy, unfortunately. Just trying to take my work seriously. If it helps, remember that he is getting his work out of the way first so that he can spend time with you. (Giving him the benefit of the doubt,) his goal is not to get mired down in work. He may get annoyed when you call him to see how he's doing while he's in the middle of working, but that's because you are throwing him off course from his ultimate goal.

I guess I see relationships and love as a state of being, not a moving, breathing thing. At worst, this can make it seem...static. I wouldn't really say that I "put it on a back burner", though it's true that I don't like a relationship to take over my whole life. The times I've fallen for someone, I've fallen hard, I know that much. I made it clear that I was giving her my devotion, maybe because that's what I would have wanted most. And I'm sure it was appreciated, but by itself it's usually not enough.

[quietgirl]

I do see what you said above. And it is something I learned to do recently. Thank you.

I think what is hardest for us NFs in relationships with your type is the
apparent lack of concern about the relationship.
Because we tend to live it, you see, and your type apparently puts it on a
back burner and has a life outside of the relationship.:shock:
For instance my ISTJ is away at work right now, far away, and seems
not much concerned about me, I think/feel. He said he will call me when he returns, and that's that.
I have slowly trained him over the last six months to at least leave me a phone message now and then, so he is improving.
But if not for that, I doubt that I would hear from him until he got everything done that he needs to get done, including all household chores, etc.
and shopping, and anything else that might possibly need to get done in the next year, and THEN, he will call me and schedule some leisure time with me.

For me, and for most NFs I think, I would be calling him first and at least scheduling the time and then worrying about the other stuff.
Does this make sense to you? And thanks for your helpful input.

I'm goingto read through this thread some more, but I wanted to write a quick comment cause I noticed it's coming from another INFJ...

I live with a wonderful ISFJ with a borderline F/T so he seems to exhibit a lot of ISTJ traits as well. Awesome, haha. (I'm kidding!)

Ya gotta understand that while our life may be structured around the relationship, HIS life is structured around his daily routine with the relationship being PART of the routine. The routine comes first. For example, during the course of our relationship, he had a period of time where he was out of work. During that time, I was working my little butt off. We share a car but we also live within walking distance of my job. Sometimes I'd text him to see if he could pick me up from work when I had originally planned to walk home. This would throw him all out of sorts because his daily routine was not structured around me needing a ride & I was completely throwing off his schedule. In my mind, he didn't have a job & was (in my opinion) not doing anything as important as I was doing - plus how dare he make the woman he loves walk home when he could pick me up! :) I had to realize that it had nothing to do with me, my feelings, or anything personal. His daily routine of getting up, going for a run, cleaning the apartment, and then going to the gym to lift was of value to him. Another example is that if he's in the middle of whatever it is that he does, I can't expect a text or phone call.

I also wanted to comment on the thinking things through. Don't bother trying to convince an ISJ to do something immediately or feel a certain way. It just builds resentment, even if you have no ill intentions. I've learned to throw things out there, let my boyfriend mull it over w/o bugging him, let him draw his own conclusions, listen to what he has to say about it when he's ready to talk, and then just ride out the cranky adjustment period if it involves a big change. In general, he makes really good decisions and is considerate to my needs - I just can't force it to happen.

I noticed that you mentioned towards the beginning of this thread that your ISTJ had some bad experiences with people leaving him because he's too busy. ISJ's in general are strongly rooted in past experiences, so while you know yourself better than he does - his experiences are very valid to him & he most likely believes that it is a good indicator of the future. This was the hardest nut to crack with my boyfriend. I had to show him through my actions that I was different from his past relationships, which wasn't entirely fair to me but I had to accept that it had nothing to do with me. If we get in an argument & I'm acting blatantly out of line, I prepare myself for a couple days of evaluation to "prove" to him that I am not going to do it again. This sort of stuff doesn't happen much anymore now that we've been together awhile, but at the beginning of the relationship, it definitely made things difficult & I felt judged often. However, when I brought it to his attention, he was entirely apologetic and had no idea that his normal behavior was causing me to feel that way.

I guess my best advice would be not to take everything they say or do personally. My boyfriend is a wonderful man & treats me very well. I had to accept that he's pessimistic, always believes he's right about the things he knows & experiences (and normally is - which I hate!), has a bit of arrogance about him that is completely unintentional (He actually felt awful when I brought it to his attention), and cannot make an on the spot decision to save his life. Once I realized that none of this had anything to do with how he feels about me and our relationship, I started feeling a lot less worried and things between us got better than ever.

[quietgirl]

In regards to "reading between the lines" and "taking hints":

One thing that may help is to remember that trust is important, so I trust you and don't expect you to lie to me. If you don't say what you mean directly, it could be misconstrued as lying (or something similar). Honesty is direct, with no need to beat around the bush. Dishonesty is evasive and indirect. In most cases, I'll give the benefit of the doubt, and assume there was no "hidden meaning".

So on serious matters, I expect you to be direct. On not as serious matters, you don't have to be direct, but you still run the risk of miscommunication...

When you ask a question like "Why don't you like my friend?" and I answer "I don't know" or "she's aggravating", if you feel like that answer isn't enough, then it may be that I can't really find the words to express it fully and completely. It took me a while to teach myself to do this, to search for a fundamental reason why things like that bug me, to link the pieces together inside. And then, of course, to explain it in words to the person concerned.

Still agreeing with what's been said about relationships in recent posts, pretty much on the mark. :blush:

Yea, this makes me want to pull out my hair. :)

I very much agree! I'm fairly direct, but I speak rather metaphorically and read into things a bunch. It's the N/S difference. My boyfriend is extremely practical and sees things in more of a black & white way. We've had uite a few arguments because my answer for something was a "novel" (as he'd say) over a simple, straight to the point, practical answer. He also views the wordy-ness as being dishonest. As he's said a million times - if you have to think about it or explain it, you're lying. I don't always agree, but I can see how he sees it that way. To save myself the headache, I just get straight to the point now and if I feel it needs explanation, I approach it later on. He's also gotten better with not making snap judgements based on my wording. It was valuable to understand this fundamental difference, though.

[quietgirl]

Possibly. Except he might see you as the one who destabilized it all to start with. Because you don't play by the rules he sees as rational.

That Ne inferior is very wicked for untrained ISTJs and ISFJs. They can start projecting wildly and have lots of paranoid ideas about what might happen, rather than more plausible iNtuitions.

Anyway, I'm sorry, I was still thinking in terms of me and not in terms of ENFP when I was responding, and so maybe I was not addressing ENFP-oriented issues.

I just wanted to add to this a bit...

Before I met my boyfriend, he had a very stable world. He jokingly compares our relationship to the movie "Along came Polly" because when I came around, I completely shook up his world. As a result, we went through a bad patch when he was getting adjusted to the change. Think of a little kid who is forced to do something against his or her will. They pitch a tantrum, cry, lock themselves in their room, and then get over it and embrace the change. It's kinda like that, but not as extreme.

He had always provided himself with security, but after I came in like tornado and uprooted everything, he became way more dependent on me for security because he's in a period of adjusting to change & I essentially took away his personal security. It didn't help that his last girlfriend was very similar to him and never disrupted his "world".

Now that we're adjusted to a new "world" and we live together (which was another adjustment, haha), things are wonderful again. He's become more flexible because from what he says, he's "taken into account my eccentricness as part of his daily living situation". I consider that a compliment, haha. :) He's also regaining personal security because he's used to the way things are in his world now - which is a huge relief to me. I still have to push him to do things out of his comfort zone and I still have to force-feed him new foods (haha), but at least he knows that change won't kill him.

[batumi]

Well yeah at first, it was like we were clashing all the time because he wouldn't talk and he said I asked too many questions lol...

I missed this on the first read. I got the same story from mine initially.
I believe he told me I "pry". :)

[batumi]

Thank you Cimarron for your time and efforts to explain. I really appreciate you!!

[Bella]

There's a whole lotta 'preciatin' goin' on today...

(cancels out those hate threads.)

[batumi]

Now that we're adjusted to a new "world" and we live together (which was another adjustment, haha), things are wonderful again.

Thank you also for your time and efforts to help me understand.:hug:
We have been talking about living together, but not until next summer.

I am pretty nervous about the idea, mostly because it would
be my moving into his home. Whenever he brings it up, I always
silently thank my lease for holding me where I am until summer.

What kinds of obstacles were there when you began living together
and what helped to overcome them?

[batumi]

There's a whole lotta 'preciatin' goin' on today...

(cancels out those hate threads.)

Always a good thing. :hug:

[Cimarron]

Sure, no problem. :) I just feel bad because you've got nothing but my accounts to go by, and I don't know for sure whether my feedback will work in general for all ISTJs, compared to how much varies from person to person. I wish you had some other people's input too... :( I would hate to lead you guys the wrong way with my advice.

What kinds of obstacles were there when you began living together
and what helped to overcome them? Probably "Don't mess up my stuff. Everything is just the way I like it. And if you're going to mess with it, warn me first." I wonder if he's that territorial, or if it's just me.

Thanks to Quietgirl, also, for some more good analysis!

[batumi]

Sure, no problem. :) I just feel bad because you've got nothing but my accounts to go by, and I don't know for sure whether my feedback will work in general for all ISTJs, compared to how much varies from person to person. I wish you had some other people's input too... :( I would hate to lead you guys the wrong way with my advice.

Probably "Don't mess up my stuff. Everything is just the way I like it. And if you're going to mess with it, warn me first." I wonder if he's that territorial, or if it's just me.

Thanks to Quietgirl, also, for some more good analysis!

I think you are wonderful and very helpful!!

Yes, the territorial is definitely there. It took quite some time before he
even invited me over. Then he made sure to let me know how honored
I should be that he had. ;)
Ok it was subtle, but he definitely did.

What has surprised me the most is how much he really was telling
me the truth early on when he said he would warm up with time.
He has come a long, long way from the guarded, closed, cynical and silent
man I first met six months ago.

All the same, I am glad I don't have to work under him.
I do pity his underlings. Do you have any of those?

[Cimarron]

Yes, the territorial is definitely there. It took quite some time before he
even invited me over. Then he made sure to let me know how honored
I should be that he had. ;)
Ok it was subtle, but he definitely did.

What has surprised me the most is how much he really was telling
me the truth early on when he said he would warm up with time.
He has come a long, long way from the guarded, closed, cynical and silent
man I first met six months ago. I wonder why he says this. It sounds like it was you who started the relationship, right? He does sound pretty cynical, but maybe it just comes out that way. I wonder if I sound that cynical...I try to use it as a point of humor. :rolleyes:

All the same, I am glad I don't have to work under him.
I do pity his underlings. Do you have any of those? Me? Nooo, I'm not the boss of anyone. I'm still a college student. I prefer not being in a supervisor role. But I also have that "If you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself" attitude. It comes out more when I'm under a lot of stress.

Under stress, it can go one of two ways. If someone else is clearly in charge, I say "Fine, tell me exactly what to do, and I'll do it". If there isn't any clear person in charge, that "If you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself" attitude will stick out.

[batumi]

I wonder why he says this. It sounds like it was you who started the relationship, right? He does sound pretty cynical, but maybe it just comes out that way. I wonder if I sound that cynical...I try to use it as a point of humor. :rolleyes:

No, he was the initiator, actually. And it took me awhile to like him.
At first, I was feeling kind of like "ick" but then we had this incredible chemistry come into play.

Me? Nooo, I'm not the boss of anyone. I'm still a college student. I prefer not being in a supervisor role. But I also have that "If you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself" attitude. It comes out more when I'm under a lot of stress.

Under stress, it can go one of two ways. If someone else is clearly in charge, I say "Fine, tell me exactly what to do, and I'll do it". If there isn't any clear person in charge, that "If you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself" attitude will stick out.

That sounds like him.
What are you studying in college?

[Cimarron]

No, he was the initiator, actually. And it took me awhile to like him.
At first, I was feeling kind of like "ick" but then we had this incredible chemistry come into play.

That sounds like him.
What are you studying in college? Oh, I don't know then. I mean, I'm usually not the cheeriest person in the world, either.

I'm majoring in chemistry. This should be my last year in undergrad, maybe going for masters, but I'm not planning on it.

[batumi]

I'm majoring in chemistry. This should be my last year in undergrad, maybe going for masters, but I'm not planning on it.

very cool. I have a minor in it.
Hope it is not too offtopic to ask which class you liked the best so far....

[Beat]

lemme get sum appreciation

[ArbiterDewey]

I'm talking specifically about favorite food, the one I never get to have. Making or getting, I suppose. But that's way too specific to work for everybody. We should wait for other people to give more advice in that area(at least I hope they do...no pressure, guys!).

Maybe trying new things together, but nothing too wild. I'm too much of a beginner at relationships in general to give you any sure advice.

Been off the forum a few days, Cimarron. Sorry I couldn't offer additional perspective on some of those topics above.

As far as getting an ISTJ to "evoke passion and romance," I'm not sure it really happens as described. We feel extremely appreciative and the "warm fuzzy's," but I have yet to encounter passion or romance. My last girlfriend's advice for Romance was, "Google that shit." LOL


Ya gotta understand that while our life may be structured around the relationship, HIS life is structured around his daily routine with the relationship being PART of the routine.


As a note, I refuse to allow a relationship to become my life as well. It will be a pleasurable addition to it, but never the whole. I normally tell whoever I'm with this early on too, as to not seem like an ass.


I also wanted to comment on the thinking things through. Don't bother trying to convince an ISJ to do something immediately or feel a certain way. It just builds resentment, even if you have no ill intentions. I've learned to throw things out there, let my boyfriend mull it over w/o bugging him, let him draw his own conclusions, listen to what he has to say about it when he's ready to talk, and then just ride out the cranky adjustment period if it involves a big change. In general, he makes really good decisions and is considerate to my needs - I just can't force it to happen.

I guess my best advice would be not to take everything they say or do personally. My boyfriend is a wonderful man & treats me very well. I had to accept that he's pessimistic, always believes he's right about the things he knows & experiences (and normally is - which I hate!), has a bit of arrogance about him that is completely unintentional (He actually felt awful when I brought it to his attention), and cannot make an on the spot decision to save his life. Once I realized that none of this had anything to do with how he feels about me and our relationship, I started feeling a lot less worried and things between us got better than ever.

I'm convinced we require a night's rest to think through anything important, and being talked through "feeling" something is the worst. I had a problem with an INFJ girlfriend that couldn't understand that; outright refused to. It's not the norm to be a long thinker, because she wasn't a long thinker, lol. You can g