10/7 Obama vs. McCain debate thread.

[ajblaise]

If you have any commentary, thoughts, or reflections on tonight's debate you can post it here.

McCain needs a "game changer" desperately, I hope he tries to pull something tonight..

[Enyo]

I'm sitting in front of CNN, just waiting for it to go.

[Jack Flak]

Highlights pls! lol.

[Jeffster]

So, you and CNN are finally going steady?

[Jack Flak]

Good point. Relationships? I just noticed there's another debate thread too, as per usual. Yay!

Merge, perhaps?

[Enyo]

So, you and CNN are finally going steady?

I'm cheating, actually. I've been going steady with Headline for a couple of years, now.

[Enyo]

I'm cheating, actually. I've been going steady with Headline for a couple of years, now.

Crap. I see that I posted in the wrong forum. I'm going to blame the dog. It's hard to type when a border collie sticks her nose in the way. Can a mod move us, please?

[Haight]

Will you be serving drugs at this party?

[ajblaise]

Will you be serving drugs at this party?

I've been informed that you've already been dosed with LSD upon arrival.

[Haight]

I've been informed that you've already been dosed with LSD upon arrival.:unsure:

[ajblaise]

:unsure:

Just try to avoid open windows and roofs tops.

[ajblaise]

McCain talking on the economy... he might as well be trying to explain how to install my graphics card.

[Jeffster]

I didn't really see much of the first debate, did McCain act this nervous in that one? Obama seems tons more relaxed right now.

[Haight]

Just try to avoid open windows and roofs tops.Trust me, this ain't my first rodeo, cowboy.

(Damn that sounded gay. Even as I mumbled it while writing.)

[ajblaise]

I didn't really see much of the first debate, did McCain act this nervous in that one? Obama seems tons more relaxed right now.

Well he wouldn't look at Obama in the first one, which I'm sure he will correct this time..

I think McCain would look more confident if national security was being discussed instead of the economy.

Trust me, this ain't my first rodeo, cowboy.

(Damn that sounded gay. Even as I mumbled it while writing.)

Yeehaawww partner.

[Orangey]

So, you and CNN are finally going steady?

Well they're definitely sleeping together :yes:.

[Ivy]

threads merged.

[Ivy]

Just try to avoid open windows and roofs tops.

That is such a myth. Of all the tripping people I've been around, only one jumped out of a window. And the window wasn't open. Hmph.

There was also the guy who jumped into a window....of the house next door, and stole all their DVDs.

Okay, I'll turn on the debate so I'm not entirely off-topic in my next post...

[ajblaise]

That is such a myth. Of all the tripping people I've been around, only one jumped out of a window. And the window wasn't open. Hmph.

There was also the guy who jumped into a window....of the house next door, and stole all their DVDs.

Okay, I'll turn on the debate so I'm not entirely off-topic in my next post...

Yeah really.. Most of the tripping people I've been around would piss their pants before getting anywhere near the edge of a roof.

[Ivy]

Yeah really.. Most of the tripping people I've been around would piss their pants before getting anywhere near the edge of a roof.

Most, sure. I wasn't kidding, though. This dude I knew freaked and busted out a window to escape. First story, but still.

Anyway. I propose we all grab beers and drink when anyone says "earmarks." Anybody with me?

[ajblaise]

Most, sure. I wasn't kidding, though. This dude I knew freaked and busted out a window to escape. First story, but still.

Yeah, there's just some people you know shouldn't be given psychedelics.

Anyway. I propose we all grab beers and drink when anyone says "earmarks." Anybody with me?

I think I'd only catch a mild buzz. McCain has been catching a lot of flak over this earmark jazz lately.

[Enyo]

Anyway. I propose we all grab beers and drink when anyone says "earmarks." Anybody with me?

But I don't drink. ;)

Seriously, though, what are the top three issues to you?

For me it's:

1.) economy
2.) secure border
3.) the war

[ajblaise]

1.) Economy.
2.) The progression of alternative energy and technology in general.
3.) Foreign relations.
....
12.) Legalize it!

[ajblaise]

Obama: "Senator McCain and I agree..."

Uh oh, he should keep a lid on saying this too many times. Backfired last time.

[Haight]

Obama: "Senator McCain and I agree..."

Uh oh, he should keep a lid on saying this too many times. Backfired last time.You seem quite lucid tonight. Is your dealer stuck in traffic or something?

[ajblaise]

You seem quite lucid tonight. Is your dealer stuck in traffic or something?

It shouldn't take too long..... so thse debats regj fghf kghfghlkfjglkj

[Haight]

Back to normal.

[Ivy]

1.) Economy.
2.) The progression of alternative energy and technology in general.
3.) Foreign relations.
....
12.) Legalize it!

This is me, too, all the way down to the 12.

Until this vacation I was in that elusive demographic of proponents of legalization who don't actually partake themselves. I'll be back in it after this week. :ninja:

[Enyo]

Damn it, Obama is actually sounding reasonable this time.

Except when he starts talking about reducing taxes for 95% of the American people. I don't see how this is possible when we have a ten trillion national debt.

Good thing I'm not drinking every time I hear "earmarks", or else I'd be hammered.

[ajblaise]

I'll be back in it after this week. :ninja:

Sure you will, I'll give you three weeks before you quit your job and move Oregon to work on a hemp farm.


Damn it, Obama is actually sounding reasonable this time.

Except when he starts talking about reducing taxes for 95% of the American people. I don't see how this is possible when we have a ten trillion national debt.

Good thing I'm not drinking every time I hear "earmarks", or else I'd be hammered.

You can reduce taxes for 95%, because it's that top upper economic class that owns most of the wealth anyways.

[Enyo]

I'm watching the debate 20 minutes behind on my PVR, since real life got in the way. But I'm getting really sick of hearing "my friends" every twenty seconds.

[kelric]

I'm watching the debate 20 minutes behind on my PVR, since real life got in the way. But I'm getting really sick of hearing "my friends" every twenty seconds.

Is it really only every 20 seconds? Seems like more than that. Not the only reason, but I'm having a hard time listening to this.

[ajblaise]

McCain sure is playing the I'm A POW card to it's fullest right now.

[IlyaK1986]

I'm certainly not quite sure on Obama as Commander in Chief. I think he is wet behind the ears here, and I think McCain would make a better one. Sorry, BO, but I gotta give this one to the old man. He's been there.

But in terms of the economy...

WARREN BUFFETT FOR SECTREAS?!

I thought the former CEO of Goldman Sachs couldn't be one-upped...

BUT WARREN BUFFETT?

Okay...forget Obama. Forget McCain. Forget Biden and Palin, too.

BUFFETT FOR SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY! NOW!

[kuranes]

I thought Obama's remark about using a scalpel versus a hatchet was a good jab.

Both men seemed very uncertain about how to answer the good question about how to handle Russia without getting into another cold war.

I thought there were a lot of very good questions , especially the "Zen" question, but the candidates avoided answering them very directly. I was pleasantly surprised to see Obama not follow McCain's lead on saying that he thought we could attack all of the problems simultaneously, even though there is some interdependence implied in some of the issues.

I'm still waiting to hear Obama reply in some detail to the McCain claim that he voted to raise taxes for people making over 42K after being elected to some position. Sometimes these accusations refer to bills that had many heterogeneous and seemingly contradictory components. I heard that this one was "non-binding" but I'd like more info on that.

On a separate matter, it struck me that Obama may either feel it is politically unfeasible to address this directly, or he just isn't aware of developments, or he is trying to keep up with McCain's simplistic black/white and good /evil distinctions when he answered the way he did about a "dictator" for Afghanistan. See my post "The Other 'Bad Guys' on that.
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/politics-history-current-events/9165-other-bad-guys.html

The idea that we're going to be able to bring American style "democracy" or open society culture in full blossom, to all crucial countries in the world, many of whom are only just now beginning to come out of the medieval ages, seems naive. ( We're even starting to have problems keeping it going right here, from our own domestic traditionalists sometimes. )

I am torn between a desire for a nuanced President, with a consideration for "P" orientation to options, and the desire for someone who will not wait too long on some decisions. McCain makes much of his "steady hand" and quick decision to threaten Russia about Georgia, but we don't need a hotheaded, impulsive or brittle stance either, from someone with so much destructive power at his fingertips.

[IlyaK1986]

Going flag-waving around the world IMO is...less than intelligent at a time like this. We need to shore up our own problems domestically and in fact start to tone down our proactive approach to foreign policy. And when I say tone it down, I mean tone it DOWN. Sure, keep our bases in nations, support Israel, and all that...but let's do it BEHIND the scenes.

And if we need to fight, we need to not be messy about it but just a swift, crushing blow to any enemy nation to make them feel the pain and humiliation for decades.

[LostInNerSpace]

I think Barack did a great job. Much better on the offensive this time. McCain's answers were wishy washy.

[Usehername]

Only caught the end of it after my night class, but my thoughts:

MBTI Related:
When Obama was first speaking about Russia responding to that woman's question, he totally dropped the orator skills for a moment and demonstrated what I'm sure other INTJs can relate to (not that he's an INTJ)--an inability to spew out Ni thoughts.

Politics Related:
The military question from the male (CPO?) in the audience about whether the USA should wait for UN approval or go ahead and do their thang if provoked... isn't that illegal? And what Chomsky always talks about? How scary is it that?! Yeah, we know the US will go ahead without approval. But to explicitly state that in the debate, both Obama and McCain would've been torched, seen as pathetically weak, and lost a lot of votes if they had said they'd follow legal action.

Creepy.

[Udog]

They both irritated me equally, so I call this one a draw.

[ajblaise]

Udog, that was a captivating analysis.

[Udog]

If I shout it at the top of my lungs, can I become a pundit for a cable news tv show?

[Jeffster]

If I shout it at the top of my lungs, can I become a pundit for a cable news tv show?

Probably, but you have to be able to flawlessly shift between repeating tired buzzwords and denying reality in new and interesting ways.

[Eileen]

THIS IS NOT POLITICAL COMMENTARY.

I never realized how small John McCain is. This format kind of emphasized it because of camera angles and such. He looked REALLY uncomfortable, too. And his suit looked just a little too big. And his fingers looked like sausages.

[nottaprettygal]

THIS IS NOT POLITICAL COMMENTARY.

I never realized how small John McCain is. This format kind of emphasized it because of camera angles and such. He looked REALLY uncomfortable, too. And his suit looked just a little too big. And his fingers looked like sausages.

I thought that the way his arms were always bent at a 90 degree angle made it look like he was going to start doing the robot every time he stood up.

[Eileen]

I thought that the way his arms were always bent at a 90 degree angle made it look like he was going to start doing the robot every time he stood up.

Agreed, though a t-rex impression was also always possible.

[Jack Flak]

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS OR TEH DEBATE EITHER:

I noticed the debate was on while at the deli, so naturally gave it a gander. I never noticed how much of a horrible con man Obama was. How he never said anything of merit, yet the WAY he said things was his whole schtick. *shrug* Just something unrelated to anything, which I noticed.

[pure_mercury]

Politics Related:
The military question from the male (CPO?) in the audience about whether the USA should wait for UN approval or go ahead and do their thang if provoked... isn't that illegal? And what Chomsky always talks about? How scary is it that?! Yeah, we know the US will go ahead without approval. But to explicitly state that in the debate, both Obama and McCain would've been torched, seen as pathetically weak, and lost a lot of votes if they had said they'd follow legal action. Creepy.

How would that be illegal? I am not in favor of offensive wars, but the U.S. isn't beholden to the UN when it comes to national defense. It's not the world government.

[Udog]

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS OR TEH DEBATE EITHER:

I noticed the debate was on while at the deli, so naturally gave it a gander. I never noticed how much of a horrible con man Obama was. How he never said anything of merit, yet the WAY he said things was his whole schtick. *shrug* Just something unrelated to anything, which I noticed.

I know you aren't fully serious, but this is a point I want to comment on.

There are lots of reasons to not like Obama (and I've gone into some of them) but I can't criticize on this one too harshly. The language of values and ideals comes naturally to him in a way that the language of concrete action items do not.

Obama was the exact same way when he would talk about his strategies on how he would mount a campaign that would defeat Hillary Clinton. It was mostly about his ideals and very little about the mechanics. Yet, he still managed to pull a spectacular upset with a brilliantly laid out campaign strategy.

Just because he doesn't discuss the details doesn't mean he is unable to come up with them to get the job done.

[Enyo]

Udog, that was a captivating analysis.

But one that I can agree with. I think it's relatively obvious that I'm not an Obama supporter (or a McCain supporter, for that matter), but I found him less irritating.

This debate was actually boring as all. Or maybe it's just because I felt like crap in general last night.

[pure_mercury]

I am glad I saw Nick Cave instead of watching this pair of douche canoes set sail.

[kuranes]

..

Okay...forget Obama. Forget McCain. Forget Biden and Palin, too.

BUFFETT FOR SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY! NOW!

:yay:

I saw some posturing on both sides, and some of what they had to say was repeat moments from earlier speeches; but when people say they think the whole thing was just one big yawn, I am a little thrown. Although the US president is just a figurehead in many ways, it is still an important decision who that will be, even if it only matters on details that are less than fundamental to the basic infrastructure philosophy. Or what kind of band aids are used while we wait for the actual doctor to come ....someday in that ideal world.

I thought there might be more discussion of this here last night after the debate, but it seemed that the usual "What type is Mickey Mouse" threads were getting more action. :huh: Well, maybe people had to get to bed soon after since it was a work night.

[Ivy]

I'm on vacation. I don't want to think about depressing shit too much, it ruins the buzz.

Edit: step number 2 on my way to selling tie dyed broom skirts.

[Ivy]

I am glad I saw Nick Cave instead of watching this pair of douche canoes set sail.

:nice:

PS, that was to the turn of phrase. I started this campaign with a fair amount of respect for both of these candidates, and while at least one of them has squandered a majority of that goodwill, I still want to believe. Call me Mulder. Actually, don't.

[kuranes]

I'm on vacation. I don't want to think about depressing shit too much, it ruins the buzz.

Enjoy your buzz/vacation. Yours is not one of the kinds of attitudes that comes to mind when I think of people who never post on serious subjects anyway.

Maybe post in my "If" thread instead, or create a light hearted or personal dynamics thread of your own.... that will still be original, knowing you, even if it isn't responding to the debate, or politics/economics. :)

[Udog]

This debate was actually boring as all. Or maybe it's just because I felt like crap in general last night.

No, it really was a disappointing debate. Yes, there were a few interesting moments, but I almost screamed everytime a candidate not only failed to answer the question, but did it so they could take pot shots at the other. :steam:

[kuranes]

No, it really was a disappointing debate. Yes, there were a few interesting moments, but I almost screamed everytime a candidate not only failed to answer the question, but did it so they could take pot shots at the other. :steam:

I know. It seems like this thread could also be a vehicle to bring up ideas/opinions indicating where we think the candidates are falling short ( or exaggerating ) about issues that we consider important, versus strictly looking at what did in fact happen ( limited exchange of new info ) between the two guys.

For example, I brought up the issue of whether any US politician ( to say nothing of someone campaigning ) could afford to tell the truth about having to compromise and cut deals with people. We would cut deals just like we did with the so-called "freedom fighters" ( as McCain referred to them recently ) who originally took back much of Post 9/11 Afghanistan for the USA, from the Taliban; so that they could get back to helping tribes harvesting opium, which the Taliban was against, and which we supposedly are against also. Using the Taliban to kill or eject Al Quaeda ( which has been discussed ) would mean that the advances for Muslim women would be likely lost. Some would opine that the Taliban have no one person who speaks for all, and could we really trust them ( even if it were otherwise ) to keep their word and eject Al Quaeda ?

[Jack Flak]

Honesty is equal to failure in today's political arena.

[kuranes]

Honesty is equal to failure in today's political arena.
I remember when Obama made fun of Hillary during the primary for criticizing him on something he actually thought they wanted an honest answer on. He admitted that he had some problems with scheduling, that his wife kept him straight on, or something like that. ( I'm reminded of job interviews where they ask you to list your weaknesses. :) ) He got some mileage ( understanding and chuckles ) out of this ( admittedly minor ) straight talk, with his rally audiences for a little while after that. Hillary immediately tried to leverage the admission against him.

Too bad that Obama feels constrained in doing the same during the actual fight; not that I blame him entirely for doing some of this. But do they have to push one another so far as to be ridiculously extreme about this ? "The United States is the greatest country the world has ever known for sheer goodness to those less fortunate, and in need of liberty!" etc.

I have to wonder how many things they are both lying about which
( A. ) they intend to deal with in a way already known even now
( B. ) that they fudge on because they're afraid of committing themselves to some course that might be honestly un-doable later, due to changes in conditions.
( C. ) they truly don't know the answers to, or even know that they don't know. Completely clueless.
( D. ) They have a good plan to deal with but it is not "politically correct" to describe it.

I guess it is ( C. ) that I am most concerned about, and so I'm doing my trivial but incremental part in bringing things to "word of mouth" attention. ( Yes, I'm aware that they couldn't "lie" about not knowing something they didn't know. )

[Jen]

I thought that the way his arms were always bent at a 90 degree angle made it look like he was going to start doing the robot every time he stood up.THIS IS NOT POLITICAL COMMENTARY.

I never realized how small John McCain is. This format kind of emphasized it because of camera angles and such. He looked REALLY uncomfortable, too. And his suit looked just a little too big. And his fingers looked like sausages.
:laugh: Well apparently his arms were broken in Vietnam so he can't bend them properly but that's no excuse for the little man hands he was born with.

McCain most used yap:
1) "Pork barrel spending."
2) "I can do this."
3) Repeatedly mentioning dead people he once knew, e.g. Reagan and Roosevelt, or starting the sentence out with I knew so and so (who happen to be dead and his time is fast approaching).
4) "That one", when referring to Obama who was sitting directly next to him.
5) Referring to voters as "friends."

I watched some of it and quite frankly found it boring. I knew who I was voting for months ago when I choose between Barack and Clinton and honestly can't imagine why those who say they haven't decided yet, haven't. What are you waiting for a sign from God? This would also include my Mom who is an ISFJ and while I give her credit for at least considering Obama, she should have already chosen by now.

[Jack Flak]

kuranes: Good intentions and a nickel will get you a "Fuck You" from a homeless guy.

[kuranes]

kuranes: Good intentions and a nickel will get you a "Fuck You" from a homeless guy.
True. Still, our intentions are important. I indicated an example of how Obama helped himself by being honest in an answer. Yet I'm sure we could both think of examples of how honesty could screw you in some situations and help you in others. What of it ?

One thing that may have prompted you to say that, would be making a pithy joke about "what is". I think it was Lenny Bruce ( not sure ) that said " 'What should be' is a dirty lie. 'What is' is all that counts." Probably the same sentiment, eh ?

I noticed that in ptgatsby's reply to my comments in the "ladies" thread, that he was telling me about "here's how the game works" in response to my posts, although acknowledging that it often didn't make sense.

I think that sometimes as we post away here in this virtual "meeting place" that we are asking for nuts and bolts advice on why or how to do something specific, etc., but other times we are asking our "fellow travelers" about what "should be". Why not indulge in that side now and then ? If we can speculate on alternatives to greed based systems etc. then why can't we do that ?

Sometimes while doing that we may even come up with new approaches or answers for others and ourselves. During a brainstorming session the first step is to put ideas on the table that might be apropos. The time to eliminate them ( for the time being, until they are resurrected again from the archive of ideas ) is not then, but later; and pursuant to a specific goal versus simply on a whim or personal touchstone.

Or we could try to get cosmic and look at this like an allegory or something. What would the bum symbolize ? The coffee ? Me ? The sidewalk ? etc.

[Jack Flak]

It was one of those literal/figurative things, you know. Because it is literally true, and also a microcosm for however big picture you want to get. ;)

[kuranes]

It was one of those literal/figurative things, you know. Because it is literally true, and also a microcosm for however big picture you want to get. ;)

Yes, it can grow into the macrocosm, but still be scaled with everything else there; continuing to sit in its corner, hoping for that generous and tipsy rich woman to come along; and who's to say which is the bigger dreamer ? Me down here, where it's not even cosmic, or the God of drunks up there ? ( He tends to look favorably on me anyway, from past associations. ) ;)

[Jack Flak]

I can't get past the comparisons of societies which were intended to be wrapped around the proletariat ending up shit for especially the proletariat, and everyone but the super-elite. The societies built from capitalism provide more for the worst off.

[kuranes]

I can't get past the comparisons of societies which were intended to be wrapped around the proletariat ending up shit for especially the proletariat, and everyone but the super-elite. The societies built from capitalism provide more for the worst off.

I don't remember either of them drawing our attention to these historical experiments, but I tend to identify more with your previous statement; and I bet the homeless guy wouldn't give you pocket lint for either one of them ( from a pure "design translating into 'substance for him' " POV ) if there's no respect involved. For an example of a system where there is respect involved, see the "greed based systems" thread where I posted a link. It's not communism, but the union leaders ( although suspicious at first ) eventually endorsed it wholeheartedly, and then these union guys ( I forget ) may have even become irrelevant later.

[Jack Flak]

Yeah, I extrapolated a little bit. SUE ME! :D

[Jeffster]

What annoys me is that none of the Republican or Democrat candidates anymore ever challenge the notion that the federal government is supposed to solve all their problems for them and change their diapers and give them a bottle. I mean, they just accept it as a given, now. I think Bob Dole was the last one to actually put forth the incredible notion that he wasn't running for Santa Claus, and of course he got pinned as a mean old rich man for suggesting such a thing.

[Jack Flak]

F'n A, Jeffster.

[kuranes]

What annoys me is that none of the Republican or Democrat candidates anymore ever challenge the notion that the federal government is supposed to solve all their problems for them and change their diapers and give them a bottle. I mean, they just accept it as a given, now. I think Bob Dole was the last one to actually put forth the incredible notion that he wasn't running for Santa Claus, and of course he got pinned as a mean old rich man for suggesting such a thing.
Well not everybody needs the handout that Jack's homeless character does. You'll have to ask Jack about what that guy's circumstances are. He may have come by his sad state honestly, or ....not. Only Jack knows. ;)

Interesting that "corporate welfare" was also brought up in the debates, though, and not responded to.

[Jack Flak]

Corporate wellfare sucks.

[kuranes]

Corporate wellfare sucks.
:highfive:

And on that note of accord.....

[Eileen]

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS OR TEH DEBATE EITHER:

I noticed the debate was on while at the deli, so naturally gave it a gander. I never noticed how much of a horrible con man Obama was. How he never said anything of merit, yet the WAY he said things was his whole schtick. *shrug* Just something unrelated to anything, which I noticed.


Heh.

But his fingers are long and slender, not sausage-like. And he has an excellent chin!

*ponders Obama/Biden slash fiction*