Treating Women like "Ladies"

[kuranes]

The question of whether Biden should push Palin's chair in for her, after she sits down for the debate, was actually brought up seriously ( with straight faces ) by Chris Matthews, on Hardball tonight, to his two guest commentators. Chris allowed that it might look "avuncular" and put the question to a woman and an older black guy ( Clarence page, IIRC ) to get their take; and their answers were suitably vague. Personally I would see this as being ...maybe not condescending, but ....somehow worse than that. Yet I see this item ( "I want to be treated as a lady" ) laid out, again and again, as being one of the most high priority issues, in descriptions of "What I'm Looking For" on singles sites; where women are often specifying what they want from a second marriage partner or whatever. Now that they've had time to really think about what they wanted, you know. (That might very well be the second line. It's that important for them, in a four or five line generic profile description. Some even spell out specifically that they want their chairs pushed in. )

[Moderator note: Posts in this thread have been moved here from here (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/relationships/8924-intelligent-men-threatened-intelligent-women.html). -Mempy]

[Bella]

What about the chair?

[kuranes]

What about the chair?
That's what she said. :)

http://i38.tinypic.com/2i7u89l.jpg

Professionally, intellectually and academically I want to be treated like a human being, not like a "lady".

Romantically, and in more intimate relationships in general (including familial), yeah, my gender happens to take more of a significant role.

I know what you mean, but I guess we're talking about mixing the intellectual and the romantic when we speak of dating, or of husbands and wives. It doesn't mean that a guy has to behave as a caveman instead, or that couples that mutually agree that this works for them should stop doing it, but it just seems that such speculation about the protocol is a variation on what we have been talking about in this thread.( Edit - Since this thread was originally "Are Intelligent Men Threatened By Intelligent Women?" the preceding sentence now makes no sense. ) People were complaining earlier in the season that Hillary was under a lot of pressure over what to wear at these formal affairs, as a woman, for example; whereas the guys were not bothered with such trivialities.

[Bella]

No, sorry, I'm lost. I just want to know what they decided about pushing in the chair.

[kuranes]

No, sorry, I'm lost. I just want to know what they decided about pushing in the chair.
They didn't come to any incisive decision about it on the Hardball show. I don't remember exactly how it went. "He could offer to push it in, and she might accept. It would put a nice tone of politeness to the beginning of things" someone said, I think. Someone else quipped about Sarah playfully getting tough with Joe during that moment, in a banter. They moved on to other topics.

[Bella]

I think it would be so awkward!
I hope she pushes in her own chair....

[kuranes]

I think it would be so awkward!
I hope she pushes in her own chair....
Exactly.

[bluemonday]

No, sorry, I'm lost. I just want to know what they decided about pushing in the chair.
:rofl1:
This belongs in the S vs N thread !

[kuranes]

It turned out to be moot as there were no chairs in evidence last night. :)

A woman did call in ( or blog, I forget ) with a comment after the "debate" - that she thought Biden lost because he shook her hand ( which Palin offered to him as a first initiatory move ) "because a man does not shake hands with a woman" as a greeting.

[MacGuffin]

It turned out to be moot as there were no chairs in evidence last night. :)

A woman did call in ( or blog, I forget ) with a comment after the "debate" - that she thought Biden lost because he shook her hand ( which Palin offered to him as a first initiatory move ) "because a man does not shake hands with a woman" as a greeting.

Yeah, you sniff their hair.

[Oberon]

Yeah, you sniff their hair.

Works for Labradors, anyhow.

[MacGuffin]

Works for Labradors, anyhow.

Labs get more leeway down south.

[Oberon]

Labs get more leeway down south.

Now THAT kind of greeting would have made the news.

[MacGuffin]

Now THAT kind of greeting would have made the news.

VP debates should be so awesome.

[Uberfuhrer]

A truly independent and intelligent woman would not let her man:


Pour her glass of wine first.

She can pour her own glass.

Pull out her chair for her.

She's probably got arms (otherwise, I wouldn't date her), and a chair is not that heavy.

Take her coat off (although that may be kinky).
Pay for her dinner.

She pays for her own tab, I pay for my own tab.


Buy her flowers.

She can buy her own flowers.

[Modern Nomad]

A truly independent woman would not let her man:


Pour her glass of wine first.

She can pour her own glass.

Pull out her chair for her.

She's probably got arms (otherwise, I wouldn't date her), and a chair is not that heavy.

Take her coat off (although that may be kinky).
Pay for her dinner.

She pays for her own tab, I pay for my own tab.


Buy her flowers.

She can buy her own flowers.





Or a woman can buy her man flowers. take her guy out and treat him. Send him chocolates every day, call from work to make sure everything is okay, let her man have a temper tantrum just because "he's a guy, and its a guy thing", let him go shopping for whatever he wants on your credit card... etc...etc...

Im not sure if blocking is the only way. But doing the opposite behavior entirely.

btw, some of what you wrote makes it seem like everything u do is based on a complex. Thats like me constantly trying to show I am bad at math, I am a big time playa, I rule the world, etc... etc... not sure if that is the healthiest way to live.

[Jack Flak]

Or a woman can buy her man flowers...Send him chocolates every day...
Please, no.

The other stuff is OK I guess.

[Uberfuhrer]

Or a woman can buy her man flowers. take her guy out and treat him. Send him chocolates every day, call from work to make sure everything is okay, let her man have a temper tantrum just because "he's a guy, and its a guy thing", let him go shopping for whatever he wants on your credit card... etc...etc...

Im not sure if blocking is the only way. But doing the opposite behavior entirely.

btw, some of what you wrote makes it seem like everything u do is based on a complex. Thats like me constantly trying to show I am bad at math, I am a big time playa, I rule the world, etc... etc... not sure if that is the healthiest way to live.

I don't want to be pampered, either. If it's my money, it's logical to assume that everything I buy is for me. I would expect the same behavior from anyone else.

[bluemonday]

A truly independent woman would not let her man:


Pour her glass of wine first.

She can pour her own glass.

Pull out her chair for her.

She's probably got arms (otherwise, I wouldn't date her), and a chair is not that heavy.

Take her coat off (although that may be kinky).
Pay for her dinner.

She pays for her own tab, I pay for my own tab.


Buy her flowers.

She can buy her own flowers.




wow! if that's not tongue-in-cheek, you have a lot to learn about independence...and women

[Modern Nomad]

I don't want to be pampered, either. If it's my money, it's logical to assume that everything I buy is for me. I would expect the same behavior from anyone else.

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

wat a stingy girl!!!

yuck!!!

























:rofl1:

[Uberfuhrer]

wow! if that's not tongue-in-cheek, you have a lot to learn about independence...and women

All I know is that women wanted independence. They should therefore get independence.

[Mitzy]

i didnt ask for anything -__-

[bluemonday]

All, I know is that women wanted independence. They should therefore get independence.
love <> dependence
as if you didn't know

[heart]

A truly independent and intelligent woman would not let her man:


Pour her glass of wine first.

She can pour her own glass.

Pull out her chair for her.

She's probably got arms (otherwise, I wouldn't date her), and a chair is not that heavy.

Take her coat off (although that may be kinky).
Pay for her dinner.

She pays for her own tab, I pay for my own tab.


Buy her flowers.

She can buy her own flowers.




Uber, the all time romantic. :D

I see nothing wrong with being treated like a lady in a personal romantic setting, with SO, dating etc. But at work or any other professional type setting it would be disturbing.

[Jennifer]

I see nothing wrong with being treated like a lady in a personal romantic setting, with SO, dating etc. But at work or any other professional type setting it would be disturbing.

I sort of agree with that.

In my personal life, I like it when a guy opens a door for me from time to time or does other things that lets me know I'm a consideration in his mind.

But yeah, in a professional-type setting that is based more on pure capability/competence (rather than personal shows of consideration), I'd find it sort of demeaning.

[Tallulah]

I sort of agree with that.

In my personal life, I like it when a guy opens a door for me from time to time or does other things that lets me know I'm a consideration in his mind.

But yeah, in a professional-type setting that is based more on pure capability/competence (rather than personal shows of consideration), I'd find it sort of demeaning.

:yes:

[Magic Poriferan]

i meant support as back me up
why would i want to be with someone who goes against everything i believe in and what i stand for and ties me down

Hmmm... This has the potential to be interesting.

I personally have the philosophy that not even your dearest loved ones and closest comrades have the right to assume defense by default. If someone gets something wrong, they should be told that it was wrong, no matter who they are. I never understood the pack mentality of defending a friend even when they were clearly the more guilty party in a conflict. It's not just a matter of meeting out an abstract and universal sense of justice, but that I also think it's actually more beneficial to your friends their errors instead of misleading them out of supposed loyalty.

Now, I know that you did not actually say that you believe loved ones should be defended when wrong. What I talked about was simply a possible consequence of the first line. However, you went on to say something about people going against everything you believe in. So I guess my question is, do you intend to rely on your partner/friend simply because they agree with you on everyhting? To what extent can you accept someone conflicting with your opinions/choices?

[Anja]

Yeah. I don't see much need to read a lot into other people's behavior in this case. We can all apply our own standards and desires and just get all twisted out of shape.

For me it's a matter of personal convenience and respect for another human being. If I'm having an awkward time getting seated and someone else is in a position to be helpful I appreciate them doing so. It has no further meaning for me than that.

Likewise, if anyone - younger, older, or more abled than I needs a hand and I find opportunity to assist them, I do it. Means nothing more than that. Nothing expected in return and it says nothing about me other than I am sometimes helpful.

People's preferences regarding gender only enter in if I insist that they do.

Trying to determine others' ulterior motives is a waste of my time. And if I just gotta know bad enough I'll ask. I'd rarely see a reason to make that big of a deal out of it.

[Mitzy]

good grief...

i dont care what a guy does as long as hes being himself. if hes not like that, i respect that. most of the time guys just do it for traditional value and to me, i find that fake as fuck. if they ARE actually a true gentleman [which i doubt even exists anymore] then great, but i probably wouldnt even be talking to him in the first place.

i already think i got more balls than most guys and when they pull that shit its just like
dude wth =\

but idk..i guess im just a girl with a guy mentality..

[Mempy]

Yeah, I really like when guys hold open doors for me, but I like it when anybody does it, too. Still, there's this kind of soft spot I have for men who do it, for some reason; it seems like it's motivated at least a little bit by the fact that I'm a female, lots of the time; like maybe the guy wouldn't have waited five or ten whole seconds for me to reach the door behind him if I'd been a guy, you know? :) That might just be my hormones talking. (Those little guys do get out of hand now and then.)

But pulling out chairs? Um... no, not unless maybe he was my SO. Maybe, but I dunno. Yeah, I'd probably like it from a boyfriend, I think. But not all the time, for sure.

[Jack Flak]

I just size up the woman when we meet. If she's bigger, she's opening the door.

[Uberfuhrer]

Uber, the all time romantic. :D

I see nothing wrong with being treated like a lady in a personal romantic setting, with SO, dating etc. But at work or any other professional type setting it would be disturbing.

But not all of us have the money to do this in the former situation.

[Mitzy]

my question is, do you intend to rely on your partner/friend simply because they agree with you on everything? To what extent can you accept someone conflicting with your opinions/choices?



i didnt mean against me as in opinions and choices
i meant against who i am

i dont care if someone doesnt approve of my opinions or choices, as long as they understand me and accept me as a person and dont try to change how i am..

i accept people for who they are because its them
i just ask for the favor to be returned

[Magic Poriferan]

but idk..i guess im just a girl with a guy mentality..

I'm a guy who often gets classified with a girl mentality. It's interesting to me that masculine men and feminine women seem to want each other. But it doesn't usually work the same way with feminine men and masculine women, at least by my observation. I wonder why, though. If they reversed on other qualities, why not their sources of attraction? Why don't they have the same need for counter-balance as the supposedly "normally" behaved men and women?

I would dare say that it's actually a bit one-sided. It seems that feminine men do want masculine women at least more often than masculine women want feminine men. I wonder what that's about.

(Sorry, this was a completely different train of thought from the topic or discussion.)

[kuranes]

I'm a guy who often gets classified with a girl mentality. It's interesting to me that masculine men and feminine women seem to want each other. But it doesn't usually work the same way with feminine men and masculine women, at least by my observation. I wonder why, though. If they reversed on other qualities, why not their sources of attraction? Why don't they have the same need for counter-balance as the supposedly "normally" behaved men and women?

I would dare say that it's actually a bit one-sided. It seems that feminine men do want masculine women at least more often than masculine women want feminine men. I wonder what that's about.

(Sorry, this was a completely different train of thought from the topic or discussion.)
Excellent post/question. It relates to the corollary thread that Ivy proposed in the thread this one was ( strangely IMHO ) split from.

[bluemonday]

I just size up the woman when we meet. If she's bigger, she's opening the door.
:rofl1:

I sort of agree with that.

In my personal life, I like it when a guy opens a door for me from time to time or does other things that lets me know I'm a consideration in his mind.

But yeah, in a professional-type setting that is based more on pure capability/competence (rather than personal shows of consideration), I'd find it sort of demeaning.

Girls, you need to keep it simple for them.
They work with formulae, e.g.:

opening doors = good
offering seat on train = good
picking nose in public = yuck

if you start complicating the equation, they will find it too difficult to compute.

[Magic Poriferan]

i didnt mean against me as in opinions and choices
i meant against who i am

i dont care if someone doesnt approve of my opinions or choices, as long as they understand me and accept me as a person and dont try to change how i am..

i accept people for who they are because its them
i just ask for the favor to be returned

I wonder how far that philosophy can be taken. In typological terms, it would be like INTPs with ESFJs. Or type 1s with type 7s. I wonder if the relationship bonds enough when you have two such different people that are making an effort not to step on each other's toes. I sometimes think a philosophy based entirely on "live and let live" means "let's not live together". I think this because personal compromises seem to me like an unavoidable part of close relationships.

[bluemonday]

I would dare say that it's actually a bit one-sided. It seems that feminine men do want masculine women at least more often than masculine women want feminine men. I wonder what that's about.


I want feminine men.
Bring them to me now!

Have you considered that many of these "feminine men" might be looking for something a bit more masculine then a "masculine woman"?

[Mitzy]

It seems that feminine men do want masculine women at least more often than masculine women want feminine men. I wonder what that's about.

no. i dont want a feminine guy
i want a dominant guy. possibly even more dominant than myself. i cant stand feminine guys, and feminine guys cant handle me either.

[Magic Poriferan]

I want feminine men.
Bring them to me now!

Have you considered that many of these "feminine men" might be looking for something a bit more masculine then a "masculine woman"?

I assume you mean that they are looking for actual men.
I was sort of presuming that homosexuals were not being included in my question, because I was talking about a man/woman dynamic. And as you say, many of them may be looking for the real article, so to speak, but a lot of them are still looking for women.

[ZiL]

I wouldn't get too excited. He only laughed because he thinks you're cute.

Lol, I was waiting for that.


I'll know that a guy is good by what he says and how he says it, and by his body language. I don't need him to do a big deferential performance for me of opening doors, pulling out chairs, taking off coats, paying for everything, etc. to figure out whether or not he knows how to treat a fellow human being right. In non-romantic situations there's absolutely no reason to treat me differently than you would any other person. We can all hold doors open for each other and cover the bill from time to time. No static rulez.

And that stuff about Biden and chairs and Palin is ridiculous. Yiick the way the news changes their standards because of this particular woman. If it were Hillary, would that thought even once cross their minds?

[Lucifer]

I'm a guy who often gets classified with a girl mentality. It's interesting to me that masculine men and feminine women seem to want each other. But it doesn't usually work the same way with feminine men and masculine women, at least by my observation. I wonder why, though. If they reversed on other qualities, why not their sources of attraction? Why don't they have the same need for counter-balance as the supposedly "normally" behaved men and women?

I would dare say that it's actually a bit one-sided. It seems that feminine men do want masculine women at least more often than masculine women want feminine men. I wonder what that's about.

(Sorry, this was a completely different train of thought from the topic or discussion.)

I would answer that men who are more feminine are the only one of the four that is still not commonly accepted by soceity. Masculine men and feminine woman are the "faces" of the sexes, and masculine women are promoted in soceity as strong independent woman. Whereas feminine men are just weak.

Disclaimer: This is not ment as an attack on any person or persons and is especially not on Magic Proriferan. The above mentioned views are the stereotypes of our soceity as a whole, not mine.

[Mitzy]

I'll know that a guy is good by what he says and how he says it, and by his body language. I don't need him to do a big deferential performance for me of opening doors, pulling out chairs, taking off coats, paying for everything, etc. to figure out whether or not he knows how to treat a fellow human being right. In non-romantic situations there's absolutely no reason to treat me differently than you would any other person.

yep :yes:

[bluemonday]

And as you say, many of them may be looking for the real article, so to speak, but a lot of them are still looking for women.

are you trying to say I'm not a real article

i don't know how to take that.

[Magic Poriferan]

I would answer that men who are more feminine are the only one of the four that is still not commonly accepted by soceity. Masculine men and feminine woman are the "faces" of the sexes, and masculine women are promoted in soceity as strong independent woman. Whereas feminine men are just weak.

Disclaimer: This is not ment as an attack on any person or persons and is especially not on Magic Proriferan. The above mentioned views are the stereotypes of our soceity as a whole, not mine.


You know, I have made that exact observation in the past. I guess I should have looked back to it when I asked my question. There are a lot of serious ways it is present in society right now, but what I always thought was the most quaint, symbolic manifestation of it is that there are strongly female associated clothes, but basically no longer any male clothes.

I think it's a very good thing that women have all this going for them now. I just think it kind of sucks that the same reversal did not take place for men. For instance, If a guy says he'd rather stay home than have a career, society's stance is to condemn him. A woman can go either way.

[Lucifer]

Yiick the way the news changes their standards because of this particular woman. If it were Hillary, would that thought even once cross their minds?

When a woman is in the public spectacle, soceity has 2 ways to treat her, like a feminist/bitch/"independent woman" or they treat her like shes a fragile angel who could burst out crying at any moment . I think you can see how Hillary and Palin fit into the scope.

[Magic Poriferan]

are you trying to say I'm not a real article

i don't know how to take that.

Only if "real article" = "man", and you =/= "man".

We can conclude that the first is true in the context of that particular post of mine. I do not actually know what your gender is though, so the equation remains unsolved.

[Mitzy]

yeah i noticed a sort of...gender role reversal in a way...

[bluemonday]

there are strongly female associated clothes, but basically no longer any male clothes.
they are only telling you that because they want to see you naked.
it's not true. male clothes still exist.

I think it's a very good thing that women have all this going for them now. I just think it kind of sucks that the same reversal did not take place for men. For instance, If a guy says he'd rather stay home than have a career, society's stance is to condemn him.

Yes, I agree, I think men are very put upon. It's an outrage, actually.

A woman can go either way.
this one does.

[bluemonday]

Only if "real article" = "man", and you =/= "man".

We can conclude that the first is true in the context of that particular post of mine. I do not actually know what your gender is though, so the equation remains unsolved.

see, i think this is where you are going wrong, magic pinball type creature.

geekspeak is a turn off even for manly women.

[JivinJeffJones]

I've heard you should treat whores like princesses and princesses like whores if you want to get them in the sack. Or sluts like ladies and ladies like sluts*, if that's more acceptable to those eager to take me literally. I can't remember where I heard it from, so it's possible it came out of some pulp fiction novella I purchased at a roadhouse. But it struck me as having a ring of truth about it. I've never really attempted to test the hypothesis.









*will refuse to define "slut" if asked.

[Jack Flak]

bluemonday: female, but no lady. lol.

see, i think this is where you are going wrong, magic pinball type creature.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[bluemonday]

I've heard you should treat whores like princesses and princesses like whores if you want to get them in the sack. Or sluts like ladies and ladies like sluts*, if that's more acceptable to those eager to take me literally. I can't remember where I heard it from, so it's possible it came out of some pulp fiction novella I purchased at a roadhouse. But it struck me as having a ring of truth about it. I've never really attempted to test the hypothesis.

that would be a waste of money, at best.

[Magic Poriferan]

they are only telling you that because they want to see you naked.

Who is this perverse "they" that you speak of?


it's not true. male clothes still exist.

Mostly in terms of putting an opening in the front of pants/underwear, and clothing demanded for formal occasions. That's about it, at most. On the other hand, even in a completely casual situation, a man in a full-body dress might find himself in trouble.


Yes, I agree, I think men are very put upon. It's an outrage, actually.


Thank you.


this one does.

Hardy-McHar-Har.

[JivinJeffJones]

that would be a waste of money, at best.

I almost put INTPs in brackets after "those eager to take me literally". I knew it would be one of you.

[Magic Poriferan]

see, i think this is where you are going wrong, magic pinball type creature.

geekspeak is a turn off even for manly women.

Sorry to nitpick, but this is probably more accurately defined as nerd speak than geek speak. But don't mind my technicalities, sugar. http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/elfinchilde/emoticons/love25.gif

I'm usually more wordy, and perhaps you could say frilly in vocabulary, than I am nerdy or geeky. I do have a love of logic, though.

[bluemonday]

Sorry to nitpick, but this is probably more accurately defined as nerd speak than geek speak. But don't mind my technicalities, sugar.

i don't mind your frilly technicalities, one bit.
we must all be defined by something, and frilly technicalities are as good as other more typical forms of prowess - and don't let "them" tell you otherwise. :hug:

[Nocapszy]

Let me tell you all a story about treating women like ladies.

Once upon a toke, I had the idea to ask this rather attractive young lady for a date.
It wasn't quite so simple you see; I had a somewhat unconventional method.

As I approached her, she noticed me walking in her direction and looked my way. I asked her her name. She politely gave it to me.

I then proceeded to say, in as vigorous a tone as I could muster "Kaye (or however it's spelt), I will lie to you, I will insult you, and I will mock you in front of your friends. On the other hand, I can be a prolifically nice guy, I can and will get you anything you want, and I'm very funny. Wanna go out with me?"

Suffice it to say, she declined.
Defeated, I humbly trotted off scene the to my next adventure.

[ZiL]

When a woman is in the public spectacle, soceity has 2 ways to treat her, like a feminist/bitch/"independent woman" or they treat her like shes a fragile angel who could burst out crying at any moment . I think you can see how Hillary and Palin fit into the scope.

Yeah, I find it interesting that there are so few options to fit women in to right now. I know that personally I've had guys treat me either one way - like I must be a frosty bitch - or the other - I'm innocent and fragile - based off of a few cues, and I'm not even in the public eye. Some people can't work with shades of gray.

[Mitzy]

Let me tell you all a story about treating women like ladies.

Once upon a toke, I had the idea to ask this rather attractive young lady for a date.
It wasn't quite so simple you see; I had a somewhat unconventional method.

As I approached her, she noticed me walking in her direction and looked my way. I asked her her name. She politely gave it to me.

I then proceeded to say, in as vigorous a tone as I could muster "Kaye (or however it's spelt), I will lie to you, I will insult you, and I will mock you in front of your friends. On the other hand, I can be a prolifically nice guy, I can and will get you anything you want, and I'm very funny. Wanna go out with me?"

Suffice it to say, she declined.
Defeated, I humbly trotted off scene the to my next adventure.

i would have said yes if you werent ugly
[not saying or assuming you are]

[bluemonday]

Let me tell you all a story about treating women like ladies.
i'd say you were lucky to get out of there with your nuts intact.

[Nocapszy]

i'd say you were lucky to get out of there with your nuts intact.

I just wanted to see if it'd work. I guess that's not exactly a thorough experiment, but I'm afeared to make another trial for I suspect the aforementioned result is a plausible one.

[Lucifer]

I am not the best at expressing emotions, and one ways I can show a girl I like her, is by doing the little things, like getting the door and other such "old fashioned things" that have been brought up. And it is very difficult when I am merely trying to show a girl that I like her, when she takes it as an insult against women. Any input ?

[Nocapszy]

I am not the best at expressing emotions, and one ways I can show a girl I like her, is by doing the little things, like getting the door and other such "old fashioned things" that have been brought up. And it is very difficult when I am merely trying to show a girl that I like her, when she takes it as an insult against women. Any input ?

Don't dick around with women who think that?

Last time that happened to me, (which was years ago -- I don't hold the door for anyone anymore) I said "kay" walked in, pulled it shut and didn't let the bitch in.

[Lucifer]

Don't dick around with women who think that?

Last time that happened to me, (which was years ago -- I don't hold the door for anyone anymore) I said "kay" walked in, pulled it shut and didn't let the bitch in.

The problem you see, is that once I find this out it is too late, as I have already upset her.

But avoiding them altogether afterwards is probably best, it is a little unreasonable.

[LadyJaye]

Let me tell you all a story about treating women like ladies.

Once upon a toke, I had the idea to ask this rather attractive young lady for a date.
It wasn't quite so simple you see; I had a somewhat unconventional method.

As I approached her, she noticed me walking in her direction and looked my way. I asked her her name. She politely gave it to me.

I then proceeded to say, in as vigorous a tone as I could muster "Kaye (or however it's spelt), I will lie to you, I will insult you, and I will mock you in front of your friends. On the other hand, I can be a prolifically nice guy, I can and will get you anything you want, and I'm very funny. Wanna go out with me?"

Suffice it to say, she declined.
Defeated, I humbly trotted off scene the to my next adventure.

Upfront! I liked it! :cheese: At least there'd be no guesswork. Much better than dealing with a guy who presents a false front.

[Nocapszy]

Fucking right. It oughto've worked.

[Nocapszy]

fixed ruined.
fixed.

[animenagai]

i find it pretty undesirable too. i treat everybody with respect so i really don't feel like i need to treat half the population with any sort of special treatment.

[Ivy]

Moved some posts here (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/fluff-zone/9243-runaway-train-never-going-back-split.html).

[ZiL]

Fucking right. It oughto've worked.

Yeah, I'll add to the "probably would have liked it" tally.

[bluemonday]

Moved some posts here (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/fluff-zone/9243-runaway-train-never-going-back-split.html).

Really? You didn't think all this stuff was fluff?

I am impressed by your super-sophisticated fluff-detecting equipment.

[Peguy]

I often act like an chivalric gentleman around women.

[Ivy]

I kind of rushed through and left some stuff that seemed borderline on topic or were fairly self-contained. A few fluff posts in the midst of a thread is not a problem, we don't need to be totally regimented, but it was a bit out of hand.

[kyuuei]

Hm.. Taking this as serious as I can.. I'm not sure why the topic was ever brought up. Palin, in this instance, is not seen as a lady foremost.. but as an equal and adequate opponent, whether she is or not is a whole'nother can of worms, but to make the offer for such a gesture might be taken as a token from the man to the woman to remember who she is.. instead of treating her the way he would any other VP and continuing on with more important topics. That's just one way of looking at it..

Personally, I am not offended when the men in my life open doors for me, or offer to buy a drink when out.. but I also do not take offense when the gestures are not put into play either. It's a token of kindness, and a respect from one person to another.. and seeing as how some men feel more comfortable and were raised to be that way around women, I don't deny them that comfort just as I feel more comfortable calling those elder than I "sir" or "ma'am."

When on a date, or something, I do expect those gestures. Just as I would dress and act like a lady, I expect to be treated like one with whomever I am on a date with. I'm perfectly capable of just 'hanging out' with my dates as well though.

Anyways, since the VPs are not dating, I see nothing wrong with his lack of gesture.

[Mitzy]

I am not the best at expressing emotions, and one ways I can show a girl I like her, is by doing the little things, like getting the door and other such "old fashioned things" that have been brought up. And it is very difficult when I am merely trying to show a girl that I like her, when she takes it as an insult against women. Any input ?

i dont take it as an offense against women
i just think you lack some qualities of how i think a GUY should act
so pretty much saying i would think youre a pansy and you need to grow some balls.

if you can make up for that, cool. but id still probably tease you about that until you stopped doing it

[Lucifer]

Hmmm, can't say I've ever been accused of being a panzy.

Most girls think I am insensitive and an asshole. I've actually had at least two girlfriends say "your such a guy!".

Not that it keeps them away, girls are crazy.

[Mitzy]

youre right

[Lucifer]

Yea, but thats why I love em.

[kuranes]

but I also do not take offense when the gestures are not put into play either. It's a token of kindness, and a respect from one person to another........................................... .
When on a date, or something, I do expect those gestures.
I've never felt obligated to do this chair pushing, and I can't think of when I would do so unless I were to see a friend ( man or woman ) having a real hard time scooching their chair in. In all these years that has never happened. Chair scooching is a pretty simple thing. ( I could see doing it for a tot, or handicapped or really old person. ) If I'm spontaneously "moved", in the moment, I might "offer a coat" to a guy also, as well as a woman, just like I might continue holding a door open if I saw someone behind me arriving. Thank goodness for women with a hint of "tomboy" in them. Making all of this stuff obligatory leads to a slightly stilted atmosphere, in my opinion. If you decide as a couple you enjoy engaging in these traditional rituals then that's fine. You shouldn't feel obligated not to do so, just to be "modern" or "liberated", but I think the opposite is true also.

These "obligations" (that often overlap from the private sector to the public ) are part of what leads people to make remarks, such as the example I referenced earlier, about people putting Hillary under a magnifying glass re: what she would wear for some formal occasion. "Did those pearls strike the right note ?" etc. In that case it wasn't the rituals of male politeness in play, but what constituted a "lady's " obligations, imposing stilted considerations on Hillary.

[MacGuffin]

Somehow (not kuranes fault) this thread became Semi-Witty Banter for the Emotionally Stunted and Romantically Crippled.

[Mitzy]

i suppose youd fit right in then

[sleeptowin]

Acting like a true gentleman is a hassle, I prefer to keep that kinda stuff at common courtesy level. Besides, I don't think that I'd want to go out with a girl who thinks that kinda stuff is important, seriously. It would bug the hell out of me.

[Tallulah]

I've never felt obligated to do this chair pushing, and I can't think of when I would do so unless I were to see a friend ( man or woman ) having a real hard time scooching their chair in. In all these years that has never happened. Chair scooching is a pretty simple thing. ( I could see doing it for a tot, or handicapped or really old person. ) If I'm spontaneously "moved", in the moment, I might "offer a coat" to a guy also, as well as a woman, just like I might continue holding a door open if I saw someone behind me arriving. Thank goodness for women with a hint of "tomboy" in them. Making all of this stuff obligatory leads to a slightly stilted atmosphere, in my opinion. If you decide as a couple you enjoy engaging in these traditional rituals then that's fine. You shouldn't feel obligated not to do so, just to be "modern" or "liberated", but I think the opposite is true also.



Yeah, I agree. I've always felt a little awkward with some of those rituals, like the chair thing, or when a date opens my car door for me. I mean, I appreciate the gesture, but I just feel weird. I do like it when a guy opens a door for me, though. It bothers me when they go charging through, not noticing whether you got it slammed in your face or not. But then, that's just common courtesy. I do it for others, too.

I do like it when a guy offers me his jacket, though. It's a sweet gesture, and it shows he's thinking of my comfort. That kinda makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

I will also say that if a guy I'm with defends me from some drunk, aggressive redneck that won't leave me alone, he scores major points. I'm physically kind of small, and I like knowing that someone's looking out for my safety. :wubbie:

Those are really things that show a guy is a considerate person, though. The fact that he's thinking of other people is the real turn-on. In fact, if he would do the same for a woman he wasn't trying to get romantic with, it would probably impress me 100x more.

[Mempy]

Yeah, I agree. I've always felt a little awkward with some of those rituals, like the chair thing, or when a date opens my car door for me. I mean, I appreciate the gesture, but I just feel weird. I do like it when a guy opens a door for me, though. It bothers me when they go charging through, not noticing whether you got it slammed in your face or not. But then, that's just common courtesy. I do it for others, too.

I do like it when a guy offers me his jacket, though. It's a sweet gesture, and it shows he's thinking of my comfort. That kinda makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

I will also say that if a guy I'm with defends me from some drunk, aggressive redneck that won't leave me alone, he scores major points. I'm physically kind of small, and I like knowing that someone's looking out for my safety. :wubbie:

Those are really things that show a guy is a considerate person, though. The fact that he's thinking of other people is the real turn-on. In fact, if he would do the same for a woman he wasn't trying to get romantic with, it would probably impress me 100x more.

Ditto, especially the bolded.

[Uytuun]

I thank guys gracefully when they hold the door open for me or when they push my chair...I enjoy the cinema-like gentleman-lady atmosphere that enfolds for a couple of moments...all the world's a stage...I like to play a lady from time to time. I don't expect such gentlemanly behaviour, though, a door slammed into my face is just fine. I seem to inspire it in some men, though. The gentleman thing.

A friendly gesture from human being to human being is how I like to interpret it.

*tips hat*

[Anja]

Acting like a true gentleman is a hassle. . .

And I feel personally inconvenienced by the social expectation of having to act like a "true" lady. It's a real pain in the pocket and in my book translates to "Sit still and keep your mouth shut."

I like the idea of common courtesy. It's a matter of convenience and capability from my perspective. If I am having difficulty or it is problematic to accomplish a present task I appreciate a helping hand from anyone, young/old, abled/disabled. I return the same at my own personal judgement.

I think people can read entirely too much into what each individual act means. To me it means nothing more nor less than honoring a fellow human being. A non -gender fellow human being, of course! Heh. Political correctness and gender-awareness has got us all in a tangle.

[LadyJaye]

I'm grateful to anybody who will open a door open for me, or hold the elevator, or allow me to pass ahead of them when in a crowd.

I don't understand giving a guy grief for being courteous. I appreciate it when my date doesn't drop a door on me.

[Anja]

He doesn't drop doors on you?

Where'd you find this keeper? Hee.

[Jennifer]

He doesn't drop doors on you?

I don't feel loved until a door slams down on my head. *sniff*


:cheese:

[ZiL]

I've never felt obligated to do this chair pushing, and I can't think of when I would do so unless I were to see a friend ( man or woman ) having a real hard time scooching their chair in. In all these years that has never happened. Chair scooching is a pretty simple thing. ( I could see doing it for a tot, or handicapped or really old person. )

Wow, this whole sequence would make a great comedy sketch. Just neverending chair scooching issues in all corners of the room. And you'd have to go help each and every one of them but wouldn't be able to keep up because as soon as you'd get someone settled, they'd fall over or something. And everyone will be shouting "WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS CHAIR" over and over. You could call it "My Chair Nightmare".

[Angry Ayrab]

I should probably read at least one of the posts in this thread before I post but I am an enfp so I won't

Personally I would feel like a bitch if I was with a chick and she payed for anything. Not being sexist or anything, but I think my moma ingrained in me the whole treat a women like a lady thing.

EDIT: WOW TALK ABOUT BEING WAY OFF...

[Anja]

Anja totters into room and demurely stands by her chair smiling her best little-old-ladylike smile expectantly.

One of the boyz comes by and snarls, "Scooch it in yourself, Beeyatch."

Nodding appreciatively, she thinks, "Nice, honest kid. Treated me like a real WOMAN!"

Now, where's the door-dropper? :smile:

[Anja]

Just made me think of an old joke.

Hillary and Rush find themselves in an elevator alone.

After a moment Hillary begins to gush, "Oh Rush. You are my idea of a true alpha male and I'd love to have you make me feel like a real woman." She begins to disrobe. So does he.

Before anything further happens he hands Hillary his pants and says, "Wash these and iron them and have them back to my office by 5:00pm."

[sleeptowin]

And I feel personally inconvenienced by the social expectation of having to act like a "true" lady. It's a real pain in the pocket and in my book translates to "Sit still and keep your mouth shut."

I can imagine...

I think people can read entirely too much into what each individual act means. To me it means nothing more nor less than honoring a fellow human being. A non -gender fellow human being, of course! Heh. Political correctness and gender-awareness has got us all in a tangle.

Hah, yeah, on one hand you might be conceived as a total asshole for not being a gentleman, on the other hand you might be conceived as a total asshole for being a "gentleman". Damned if you do, damned if you don't :D

[GZA]

Politicians are sexless. Why pull out her chair? When in political debate, both of them are decision-making robots, they do not have any gender. She can get her own chair. Or rather, it can get it's own chair, and the other it doesn't have to do anything with any other it's chair either.

In romantic conversation, I think men should be treated like men and women should be treated like women. I guess thats probably a bit to abstract, but I think "treating her like a lady" is maybe a bit more archiac temrinology. The whole chair-pulling, coat-getting, man-walks-on-the-road-side-of-the-sidewalk thing is old and outdated. In every day conversation I think courtesy is good anyway. I think these things (like holding a door) only work for common courtesy, and I've been raised to do that (i.e. hold doors for anyone coming behind me, hold an elevator, ask if you are in line before going ahead of you, ect). In romantic conversation the whole fun of it is that you are a woman and I am a man, so thats sort of what you play with. Women like feeling feminin sometimes and men like feeling masculine sometimes, and it's fun to play around with it, too, when flirting, and by playing around with it I mean saying things that question her feminity in a joking way, and when she in turn jokingly questions your manliness. I guess guys who enjoy doing that stuff for women enjoy fitting the gender role it follows, and likewise for women. Thats my theory, at least.

[Anja]

I can imagine...


:D

Well, the concept may seem archaic, GZA, and is probably outdated. But what we seem to have lost in the process of discarding it is the idea of honoring the humanity of the people we share space with.

Without all these cumbersome "readings into."

[GZA]

I think honouring the humanity is a bit different though. Courtesy is a kind of honour, but some of those are not even really courteous at all, or not really practical. I think some honouring of humanity (which is kind of vague, I'm not sure what you mean by "honouring of humanity" to be honest) can be done by respecting someone's autonomy... while sometimes it can be through courteous acts. Whne do you do which? Blah, the world is a weird place. Social institutions/interactions are really funny and illogical sometimes. Or maybe I'm horribly ignorant and niave, hahahaha.

[Anja]

You don't seem either ignorant or naive to me. It's a useful question.

Wanna smell my armpit?

[ZiL]

Politicians are sexless. Why pull out her chair? When in political debate, both of them are decision-making robots, they do not have any gender. She can get her own chair. Or rather, it can get it's own chair, and the other it doesn't have to do anything with any other it's chair either.

In romantic conversation, I think men should be treated like men and women should be treated like women. I guess thats probably a bit to abstract, but I think "treating her like a lady" is maybe a bit more archiac temrinology. The whole chair-pulling, coat-getting, man-walks-on-the-road-side-of-the-sidewalk thing is old and outdated. In every day conversation I think courtesy is good anyway. I think these things (like holding a door) only work for common courtesy, and I've been raised to do that (i.e. hold doors for anyone coming behind me, hold an elevator, ask if you are in line before going ahead of you, ect). In romantic conversation the whole fun of it is that you are a woman and I am a man, so thats sort of what you play with. Women like feeling feminin sometimes and men like feeling masculine sometimes, and it's fun to play around with it, too, when flirting, and by playing around with it I mean saying things that question her feminity in a joking way, and when she in turn jokingly questions your manliness. I guess guys who enjoy doing that stuff for women enjoy fitting the gender role it follows, and likewise for women. Thats my theory, at least.


Lol. "So you're a man. Let's play around with that idea for a little bit."

I agree with you in a lot of the above. Most of the time I don't want to be treated expressly like a woman, but when I'm flirting with someone, that can change. It just has to be organic, not forced. Overthought in those matters is the ultimate buzzkill.

[Angry Ayrab]

Just a point of advice. If she is into you, she will have no qualms being treated like a lady at all.

[Eryndil]

I say let me push my own chair in (I don't mean I actually say that, as it might sound somewhat ungrateful!) I'd rather be treated as a 'person' than a 'lady'.

I hold a door open as a common courtesy and I expect others to do so in the appropriate circumstances. It doesn't matter what gender they are.

[Angry Ayrab]

I say let me push my own chair in (I don't mean I actually say that, as it might sound somewhat ungrateful!) I'd rather be treated as a 'person' than a 'lady'.

I hold a door open as a common courtesy and I expect others to do so in the appropriate circumstances. It doesn't matter what gender they are.

Wanna buy my lunch too?

[Eryndil]

Wanna buy my lunch too?

No, but I'll buy my own!

[Nighthawk]

I'm fairly old-fashioned. I hold doors open for women, rise when they rise at or come to the table, wait for them to start eating before I start eating, pay for lunch, etc. Sometimes I get rebuffed for it ... which I can accept ... and I don't do it anymore for that particular person. I just assume that they would appreciate a display of politeness of that sort ... and if they don't, well no hard feelings.

[Angry Ayrab]

No, but I'll buy my own!

*In Head: Dang must of came off on the wrong foot here*

I'm sorry, how rude of me, I was joking around without ever formally introducing myself. My name is Angry Ayrab, and I am the resident sarcasticles around here. It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance. Would you mind joining me on this wonderful afternoon?

[prplchknz]

I don't know. how I feel about this. But I will say if someone holds a door open for me and their's two doors you have to go through I'll hold the next one for them. I don't expect guys to hold things for me. But yeah, and I always offer to pay for my own food, if the guy really wants to pay I have no issues, but I think it's polite to at least offer.

[Eryndil]

I'm fairly old-fashioned. I hold doors open for women, rise when they rise at or come to the table, wait for them to start eating before I start eating, pay for lunch, etc. Sometimes I get rebuffed for it ... which I can accept ... and I don't do it anymore for that particular person. I just assume that they would appreciate a display of politeness of that sort ... and if they don't, well no hard feelings.

I don't expect a man to do those things for me but I wouldn't criticise him for doing so. I appreciate politeness but I think it works both ways.

[Eryndil]

*In Head: Dang must of came off on the wrong foot here*

I'm sorry, how rude of me, I was joking around without ever formally introducing myself. My name is Angry Ayrab, and I am the resident sarcasticles around here. It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance. Would you mind joining me on this wonderful afternoon?


Why, thank you very much. I am delighted to meet the resident sarcasticles. I have already been introduced to the sarcasm of Haight, so I hope to have the full set soon. :D I would love to join you on this wonderful afternoon, were it not almost midnight in this part of the world.

[Tallulah]

I'm fairly old-fashioned. I hold doors open for women, rise when they rise at or come to the table, wait for them to start eating before I start eating, pay for lunch, etc. Sometimes I get rebuffed for it ... which I can accept ... and I don't do it anymore for that particular person. I just assume that they would appreciate a display of politeness of that sort ... and if they don't, well no hard feelings.

:wubbie:

[GZA]

You don't seem either ignorant or naive to me. It's a useful question.

Wanna smell my armpit? I'd love to!


@Zil :rofl1:

I agree, it obviously couldn't be forced, there's zero fun in that. It's kind of weird putting something that has to be organic like flirting into some kind of theoritical terminology like I kind of did. :laugh:

[Nighthawk]

:wubbie:

Glad there is some appreciation for the archaic ways :)

[Jeffster]

Politicians are sexless..

Yeah. Ever since my wife found out.

signed,

John Edwards

[Anja]

:violin:

*Croons*

Tuh-huh-reet me like a fooooooool
Tuh-huh-reet me mean and croooool.
Buh-huh-uht loooooooove me.

[Johnny23]

Ironically I still open doors for girls, I still compliment them, I still let them ahead of me in line for food, and I still offer them a seat, etc, etc.

I think it's highly appropriate. Even though some women get bent outta shape over it. I say get over it.

[Mitzy]

well idk
if a guy does that, id take advantage of him
cuz i think hes a weak pussy

and then i get bored cuz hes so dumb and just stop talking to him

:D

[bluemonday]

Ironically I still open doors for girls, I still compliment them, I still let them ahead of me in line for food, and I still offer them a seat, etc, etc.

I think it's highly appropriate. Even though some women get bent outta shape over it. I say get over it.
That is ironic.

[pure_mercury]

well idk
if a guy does that, id take advantage of him
cuz i think hes a weak pussy

and then i get bored cuz hes so dumb and just stop talking to him

:D


For being gentlemanly? What specifically would make a guy seem like a pussy?

[Ivy]

Ironically, [something not at all ironic].

I don't mind at all when a guy does these kinds of things, as long as I don't get a weaselly vibe from him. But that's neither here nor there. I don't think these sorts of gestures are as meaningful as the underlying attitudes, conscious and otherwise. If the underlying attitude is one of "my parents taught me to be courteous and now it's a habit, but in more weighty matters fairness and equality is important to me," we're good. If it's "I'm doing these things to score points/because the ladies need my help/to remind everyone that babes are different," we're not good.

[Mitzy]

For being gentlemanly? What specifically would make a guy seem like a pussy?


because im most cases guys like that are the romantic type. the romantic type are the emotional type. the emotional type are not my type.

if not, then theyre just doing that because they feel a need to have to do that to impress me or show me how cool they are. which in turn, backfires cuz i just think theyre fake and i just want a guy to be himself and not treat me differently because hes romantically interested in me..

[toonia]

I tend to appreciate any sincere gestures from others, even if misguided. I don't mind if a man opens a door for me because I will hold doors for men as well if it seems practical at the moment. If I am having trouble lifting something and a man helps because he is stronger or even just available, that is appreciated as well. Being raised by a single mother I am free from assumptions about gender roles, but just try to get the jobs done whatever is needed.

Being treated like a lady is in part a result of the vibe the woman herself sends. It is a feminine vibe that encourages others to be on their best behavior out of an underlying respect for that woman. It brings to mind the best characteristics of the female role models the person has encountered in their life accompanied by a desire for approval. In this way I see being "treated like a lady" as something that generally results from the characteristics of the particular lady and not something others arbitrarily do because they feel obligated.

[pure_mercury]

because im most cases guys like that are the romantic type. the romantic type are the emotional type. the emotional type are not my type.

if not, then theyre just doing that because they feel a need to have to do that to impress me or show me how cool they are. which in turn, backfires cuz i just think theyre fake and i just want a guy to be himself and not treat me differently because hes romantically interested in me..

What if he is just polite? It seems like a really minor thing on which to base relationship decisions, you know? You could be making snap judgments about guys before you actually get to know them.

[Uberfuhrer]

Ironically I still open doors for girls, I still compliment them, I still let them ahead of me in line for food, and I still offer them a seat, etc, etc.

I think it's highly appropriate. Even though some women get bent outta shape over it. I say get over it.

I have to admit that I hold doors open for people, not because the person is a woman, but because the person was near me. I also have been known to hold the doors open for old or disabled people because it's a social courtesy that I can handle.

But I wouldn't consider anything like pulling chairs out for a woman, pouring her drink, bringing flowers, etc. as romantic gestures -- they are simply far too archaic to mean anything. And I'm sure most women experienced this from many men they have broken up with to know this, too.

[Mitzy]

You could be making snap judgments about guys before you actually get to know them.

yeah i do that a lot. mostly because im always right anyhow. =p

[pure_mercury]

yeah i do that a lot. mostly because im always right anyhow. =p

There is no way of knowing that if the guy is gone before he gets a chance.

[sanveane]

Glad there is some appreciation for the archaic ways :)

+2

[Mitzy]

im psychic

plus,

'Often within the first meeting, ENTPs will know whether the relationship has any real potential.'

[Grayscale]

why antagonize over social rules when someone's intent is more important anyways?

opening a door for a gal is not like removing womens right to vote, where the hell do people get this stuff. it's not to say she couldn't do it herself, as uber succinctly pointed out, she has arms. men like women and may sometimes like to do nice things for them, oh no!

[ptgatsby]

There is no way of knowing that if the guy is gone before he gets a chance.

Eh, if you have market power....


Personally, I write off women that expect me to pay for dinner or hold open a door.

[Nocapszy]

Idiots. All of them. Sexism is a joke.
My uncle is a sexist. So is the woman who's suing him.

I can't help but laugh at the passive aggressive veiled global attacks. They think they'll get revenge by hurting the cohort of their enemy. Where do they get this stuff?
Their own neurotransmitters are worse than any drug they can swallow or inject.

[sanveane]

.... Personally, I write off women that expect me to pay for dinner or hold open a door.

I never expect it but those gestures are appreciated on a date.

Rule of thumb is if you ask you pay. If a guy asks me out I will assume that he will be paying. It's not a huge problem if he doesn't want to, but I would think it a little weird. I will have made sure I have asked him out by third or fourth date and I will then pay, so it all evens out. In a dating situation who really cares when you're getting along well. lol, I wouldn't get to a door first and wait for him to open it for me... How you split the bill in a social setting is different again. I don't really care about any of it if you're out having a nice time.

[ptgatsby]

I never expect it but those gestures are appreciated on a date.

I suppose I should say that I judge the woman based on her rules and her ability to follow them... I do, for example, do those things now that I'm married, but not when I was dating her.

I've heard the quote before as "I don't expect it, but you just lost a second date", for instance. On the other hand, I don't mind the rule "if you ask..." as much, even though, lets face it, women have an advantage there. Although I never got a chance to ask a woman out really, so it never came up. It was either friends first or I got asked, heh.

What I would really like is a woman who brings it up during dinner so that we can see if we can talk over something awkward like that. Good signal for a LTR.

[Grayscale]

Rule of thumb is if you ask you pay. If a guy asks me out I will assume that he will be paying. It's not a huge problem if he doesn't want to, but I would think it a little weird. I will have made sure I have asked him out by third or fourth date and I will then pay, so it all evens out. In a dating situation who really cares when you're getting along well. lol, I wouldn't get to a door first and wait for him to open it for me... How you split the bill in a social setting is different again. I don't really care about any of it if you're out having a nice time.

right on. to me, the stress from "whos supposed to pay?! if i pay, im conforming to outdated gender roles, if i dont im rude and cheap, if we split it im being unchauvinistic!" is not worth the price of the bill. :dry:

when i was younger, whenever my friends and i would go out, whoever had money would pay and would split the cost of any broke friends... i think it worked out well and i still tend to approach it like this, hanging out with friends or "on a date" alike.

[Lucifer]

right on. to me, the stress from "whos supposed to pay?! if i pay, im conforming to outdated gender roles, if i dont im rude and cheap, if we split it im being unchauvinistic!" is not worth the price of the bill. :dry:

when i was younger, whenever my friends and i would go out, whoever had money would pay and would split the cost of any broke friends... i think it worked out well and i still tend to approach it like this, hanging out with friends or "on a date" alike.

Agreed, criticisms comes at guys from every direction on the way he handles woman.

It is becoming rather tiresome.

[runvardh]

Agreed, criticisms comes at guys from every direction on the way he handles woman.

It is becoming rather tiresome.

Yeah, it's almost better to ignore most of it and do what comes naturally. If she sticks around, great; if not, oh well.

[sanveane]

.... It was either friends first or I got asked, heh.



haha, lucky you! Usually if it progresses to the third or fourth date I'm going to be paying my share someway... I like to keep things fair.

[Mitzy]

girls are attracted to assholes but want the good guy

but when does the good guy ever win anyhow?

[pure_mercury]

girls are attracted to assholes but want the good guy

but when does the good guy ever win anyhow?

You tell us. You apparently have enough guys going after you to reject many on the first meeting/date.

[Jack Flak]

girls are attracted to assholes but want the good guy

but when does the good guy ever win anyhow?
Tell me about it. The asshole method is a lot more reliable. The easiest way to make yourself attractive to a woman is not caring about her, or at least pretending that you don't.

[Mitzy]

i dont bother with dating
i dont care enough for guys to date them
unless im in it for the chase


im like a guy =|
a guy with large breasts

[Mitzy]

Tell me about it. The asshole method is a lot more reliable. The easiest way to make yourself attractive to a woman is not caring about her, or at least pretending that you don't.

that applies to both men and women. people like to be treated like shit.

mostly because they want to win them over and see if theyre special enough for them to be 'the exception'. or see if they can 'change the other person'

hahaha

people are so dumb...
i can see right through it which is why i dont care for people and their relationship stuff. its all nonsense to me.

[ajblaise]

ehh I don't think people want to be treated like shit as much as they want what is far-reaching or hard to get... when they finally get it, it's more self-affirming than getting someone who easy-to-get and attainable.

[Jack Flak]

ehh I don't think people want to be treated like shit as much as they want what is far-reaching or hard to get...
People don't know what they want. In other words, people don't consciously want to be sidelined, but when they are there's attraction to the offender. It's quite silly.

[sanveane]

^Er, no to all of that for me. ew I feel like I got a free pass on all of that cos nothing does my head in quicker, hate all of that stuff. It bores me. (I'm sure I'm not alone).

[kuranes]

People don't know what they want. In other words, people don't consciously want to be sidelined, but when they are there's attraction to the offender. It's quite silly.
the infamous "neg" :)

[Jack Flak]

^Er, no to all of that for me. ew I feel like I got a free pass on all of that cos nothing does my head in quicker, hate all of that stuff. It bores me. (I'm sure I'm not alone).
Why can't they all be like you, sanveane? :hug:

[sanveane]

aww :hug: back

[Bella]

I think it gets better with age.
(okay, some people stay fools forever.)

[Enyo]

A truly independent and intelligent woman would not let her man:


Pour her glass of wine first.

She can pour her own glass.

Pull out her chair for her.

She's probably got arms (otherwise, I wouldn't date her), and a chair is not that heavy.

Take her coat off (although that may be kinky).
Pay for her dinner.

She pays for her own tab, I pay for my own tab.


Buy her flowers.

She can buy her own flowers.




I think I've just discovered another reason that you don't date.

Seriously, of course I can do all of those things for myself. But it's very nice to have these things done *for* me, and not because I expect it, but because the guy who is lucky enough to be with me *wants* to do them.

When my husband picks me up at the airport (since most of my traveling has been solo), he usually has flowers when he picks me up, or some other gift.

My high school sweetheart loved to buy me flowers because it was a romantic way to show that he was thinking of me.

As for the door thing, it's polite. As for the glass of wine thing, it's a touch of showing consideration. (You know, I make my husband breakfast in bed every morning. I pack his lunch. I cook his dinner and make his plate. It doesn't hurt for him to reciprocate a bit.)

I like to be treated like a lady. It's funny that way. But I like to be treated like a lady by a man who wants to do those things, not by a man who feels he should do those things whether he wants to or not.

[Oberon]

yeah i do that a lot. mostly because im always right anyhow. =p

You should be pleased, Mitz. I am confident that one day you will land nothing less than the guy you really deserve.

[digesthisickness]

You should be pleased, Mitz. I am confident that one day you will land nothing less than the guy you really deserve.

huh, i see this (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/347241-post40.html) happening.

[kuranes]

I just thought it was funny how many women put "want to be treated like a lady" so prominently on their singles profiles, when they could have zeroed in on other things like hobbies, sense of humor, frankness versus abrasiveness, formality/informality, sense of order etc. as more primary priorities.

The image of Demi Moore as "G.I. Jane" knocking the chair out from under the hurdles that had been set up to help her comes to mind also. How often do these rituals designed to "help" women in one sense work against them in another sense ? Even if the disconnect may come from men ( and women ) confusing the private spheres with the public versus something being "inherently wrong" about them in and of themselves . It's still a disconnect.

As hetero men, do we enjoy ( versus just feel obligated by ) our sometimes ( or outdated to some ) role of "protector" to women ? Could that same "object of the protectiveness instinct" be substituted ( to some extent ) with INFP-ness in general ? Would that give XXFP women an advantage over XXTJ women ? Or would that only be with certain kinds of men that lean much more heavily to wanting to be "protectors" ? How universal of a trait in men is this "protector" trait ? How does that dynamic ( XXFP ) play out in respect to this "war between the sexes" ?

[Enyo]

But not all of us have the money to do this in the former situation.

I don't know of any woman who has wanted her date to do those things for her when he can't afford it.

I was dating a guy who didn't have a lot of money, so most of our time was spent walking around and talking. Whenever we went out to the place where we would walk and talk, he would drive us. He would always open the door for me, and I would always lean over and unlock his door for him. I'd light his smokes for him when he was driving. He'd pour my drink for me.

It doesn't take money to be considerate.

But since the original topic was "at the workplace", sort of, the guys that I worked with at my last job always opened doors for me. My subordinates, my peers, and my superiors. My boss would often pull out a chair for me.

It's not really an issue, as long as it stays a polite thing, and doesn't become an excuse to check out my boobs or my ass.

[Mitzy]

You should be pleased, Mitz. I am confident that one day you will land nothing less than the guy you really deserve.


what i want and what i need is different
which is terrible

which means finding someone will be really hard for me
buttt
the world is big enough to have that type of possibility. so i think so too =p

[Orangey]

To be honest, I find the whole 'opening doors' and 'pulling out chairs' thing to be quite creepy, and it makes me uncomfortable. And this has nothing to do with any feminist issue about outmoded male chauvinistic behavior- I have met very few younger men so far in my life that are actually overt sexists. I just really feel self-conscious and uncomfortable when things like that come up...and I always notice it.

Why can't people just walk through the door one after the other, holding the door so that the other person can catch it or walk through? I see absolutely no need for doors to be held open while someone else is ushered through. It's a weird social habit that has literally no meaning.

[ptgatsby]

I just thought it was funny how many women put "want to be treated like a lady" so prominently on their singles profiles, when they could have zeroed in on other things like hobbies, sense of humor, frankness versus abrasiveness, formality/informality, sense of order etc. as more primary priorities.

Yes they could... but that would require people to be basing their relationship decisions rationally.

Even if you assume they are "rational" and go as far as creating a checklist, checklists change daily depending on who you are attracted to. The only thing that comes close is having your mate chosen for you.

At least the women asking to be treated like a lady tend to be more in tune with what they actually want. Keep in mind that we are really crappy predictors of what makes us happy. These women are simply following their basic desires, even if it doesn't match up with what would make a good relationship. Women tend to prefer to be "taken care off". It doesn't have to be absolute to make it prominent.

And of course, in the online mate selection game, it's relatively simple to attract mates online. Women - understate your age and post a touched up picture. Men - overstate your height, your job status, your networth/income and used a touched up picture. Oh, men, if you can only do one, make sure you get *the* best picture you can. If you can edge yourself into the top few % best looking men, you'll be flooded with emails. Alpha male wins again!

All this indicates is that the general tendencies of the sexes is to advertise one particular thing in an attempt to attract another. It's not terribly difficult to see how these two types, playing an online "game" would be suitable to be matched up.

And of course, if the male doesn't care about her hobbies, not really, then why would she advertise it? And if females don't care about the male hobbies, why advertise it? They can both signal that they are playing the game, and that's what they do.


As hetero men, do we enjoy ( versus just feel obligated by ) our sometimes ( or outdated to some ) role of "protector" to women ? Could that same "object of the protectiveness instinct" be substituted ( to some extent ) with INFP-ness in general ? Would that give XXFP women an advantage over XXTJ women ? Or would that only be with certain kinds of men that lean much more heavily to wanting to be "protectors" ? How universal of a trait in men is this "protector" trait ? How does that dynamic ( XXFP ) play out in respect to this "war between the sexes" ?

In any complex strategy game, there tends to be mixed strategies, and mating is a very complex game. (So yes to every question, with a "somewhat" attached).

I don't know of any woman who has wanted her date to do those things for her when he can't afford it.

:) But of course, most women are less likely to date someone who can't afford to do it (but of course, it does happen. But the preference remains intact!)

I agree, however. The best tool the male has to create and foster familiarity (the cornerstone of a relationship, really), is active consideration. The male can signal interest, dedication and so forth... It tends to be the optimal strategy if looking for a permanent relationship, especially since it can be withdrawn to signal the lines that cannot be crossed (ie: I treat you the way I do because I want to, not because you want me to. I won't be pushed around. I will withdraw from you if you try.)

[Oberon]

what i want and what i need is different
which is terrible


...and what you really deserve may well be different from both of those.

[Mitzy]

=o

ASS!

[Jeffster]

To be honest, I find the whole 'opening doors' and 'pulling out chairs' thing to be quite creepy, and it makes me uncomfortable. And this has nothing to do with any feminist issue about outmoded male chauvinistic behavior- I have met very few younger men so far in my life that are actually overt sexists. I just really feel self-conscious and uncomfortable when things like that come up...and I always notice it. .

How is it creepy?

[Oberon]

[snerk!]
.
.
.
.
.
<---- having a giggle fit at Mitzy

[Mitzy]

[snerk!]
.
.
.
.
.
<---- having a giggle fit at Mitzy

you are a terrible person!!



...:wubbie:

[Orangey]

How is it creepy?

I don't mean that it's universally creepy, or even that most people would find it creepy (most likely not). It's just that it makes me self conscious and I don't really know what the point of it is. I mean, I don't think that a guy is particularly nice or thoughtful just because he's held the door or pulled out a chair for me (even aside from the fact that it makes me uncomfortable).

They aren't really very thoughtful gestures if you think about it...it's just a mechanical act that can be accomplished with or without any thought or feeling put into it, so it doesn't necessarily signify that a person is nice or thoughtful. I also think that it's sort of a singling out act...meaning that it puts the spotlight on the person receiving the niceties. Some people like this. Others don't.

[Enyo]

girls are attracted to assholes but want the good guy

but when does the good guy ever win anyhow?

I married the good guy.

[Night]

They aren't really very thoughtful gestures if you think about it...it's just a mechanical act that can be accomplished with or without any thought or feeling put into it, so it doesn't necessarily signify that a person is nice or thoughtful. I also think that it's sort of a singling out act...meaning that it puts the spotlight on the person receiving the niceties. Some people like this. Others don't.

I agree with this.

Etiquette/polite behavior is often less about sincere concern than an awareness of cultural/social diplomacy.

[Jeffster]

I agree with this.

Etiquette/polite behavior is often less about sincere concern than an awareness of cultural/social diplomacy.

Dammit, y'all are gonna make me stop holding doors open.

[CaptainChick]

I don't mean that it's universally creepy, or even that most people would find it creepy (most likely not). It's just that it makes me self conscious and I don't really know what the point of it is. I mean, I don't think that a guy is particularly nice or thoughtful just because he's held the door or pulled out a chair for me (even aside from the fact that it makes me uncomfortable).

They aren't really very thoughtful gestures if you think about it...it's just a mechanical act that can be accomplished with or without any thought or feeling put into it, so it doesn't necessarily signify that a person is nice or thoughtful. I also think that it's sort of a singling out act...meaning that it puts the spotlight on the person receiving the niceties. Some people like this. Others don't.
You bring up a very interesting point.

I know plenty of courteous assholes who will open doors for you and say "God bless you" after you sneeze but not be the least bit concerned, in the *realest* sense, about you and your well-being.

[Night]

Dammit, y'all are gonna make me stop holding doors open.

No way, dude.

If it's how you display affection/concern, then roll with it.

That's really the secret - if the act means something to you, then keep it up.

[Mitzy]

I married the good guy.

well when it comes to marriage thats just a different story...

that all goes back to the other thread about women having it worse

[kuranes]

You bring up a very interesting point.

I know plenty of courteous assholes who will open doors for you and say "God bless you" after you sneeze but not be the least bit concerned, in the *realest* sense, about you and your well-being.

Those "god bless you" people are such a hoot. They will even sometimes get annoyed if you don't do it for them in return or if you don't keep saying "thank you" each time they say it.

I don't usually get the feeling that they don't care, per se, in an active sense, but it just seems an absurd ritual and expectation as far as it being obligatory. Sometimes it just seems like perfunctory "tit for tat" stuff that may have started out long ago with some basis in "caring for your soul" as a superstitious thing, but eventually just dwindled into the silliness of today.

[Uberfuhrer]

I think I've just discovered another reason that you don't date.

Seriously, of course I can do all of those things for myself. But it's very nice to have these things done *for* me, and not because I expect it, but because the guy who is lucky enough to be with me *wants* to do them.

When my husband picks me up at the airport (since most of my traveling has been solo), he usually has flowers when he picks me up, or some other gift.

My high school sweetheart loved to buy me flowers because it was a romantic way to show that he was thinking of me.

As for the door thing, it's polite. As for the glass of wine thing, it's a touch of showing consideration. (You know, I make my husband breakfast in bed every morning. I pack his lunch. I cook his dinner and make his plate. It doesn't hurt for him to reciprocate a bit.)

I like to be treated like a lady. It's funny that way. But I like to be treated like a lady by a man who wants to do those things, not by a man who feels he should do those things whether he wants to or not.

I can cook my own dinner, too (okay, actually, I order takeout more often than not), she wouldn't have to do things for me.

But doesn't what a man does to a woman with these courting gestures seem a bit smothering if you don't like being spoiled?

And another thing I absolutely do not understand is why couples feed each other. It doesn't make sense.

Oh, and the reason I don't date is because no one has expressed interest in me.

[Night]

Those "god bless you" people are such a hoot. They will even sometimes get annoyed if you don't do it for them in return or if you don't keep saying "thank you" each time they say it.

Exactly.

For a lot of people (there are some people who really mean it - Jeffster), the act is a social favor; a way to express apparent concern without really having to sacrifice anything of themselves in the process.

[Mitzy]

You bring up a very interesting point.

I know plenty of courteous assholes who will open doors for you and say "God bless you" after you sneeze but not be the least bit concerned, in the *realest* sense, about you and your well-being.

well i think when he/she brought up those points i think he meant chivalry in general. not door opening and all that specifically..
people can do that but he meant it when people do that in a romantic setting? =/

[bluemonday]

Etiquette/polite behavior is often less about sincere concern than an awareness of cultural/social diplomacy.

What's wrong with that?
I'd rather have insincere concern than none at all. Society doesn't operate on sincerity - far from it.

[Night]

What's wrong with that?
I'd rather have insincere concern than none at all. Society doesn't operate on sincerity - far from it.

Nothing is wrong with it.

It's an expression of learned cooperation. Courtesy is responsible for much of the civility/ethical sophistication we enjoy daily.

My point was that good etiquette does not suggest good intention.

[CaptainChick]

My point was that good etiquette does not suggest good intention.
Agreed.

[bluemonday]

My point was that good etiquette does not suggest good intention.

Oh..ok... I must have stumbled into the wrong thread. I thought the debate was about behaviour, (opening doors, pulling out chairs and whatnot) not intention. Intention isn't something we can do a whole lot about, after all.

FWIW, I don't think it is helpful for women to contextualize polite conventions. E.g. Life partner holding door open is a good thing, Business Partner holding door open is offensive. It's too arbitrary. It does confuse men. And the world is confusing enough without create unecessary anxieties about the little things.

It is ridiculous to be offended by people who are polite to you. The world is full of people who aren't.

I like men who hold doors open for me. I like the ones who hold doors open for other men, even more.

[Grayscale]

FWIW, I don't think it is helpful for women to contextualize polite conventions. E.g. Life partner holding door open is a good thing, Business Partner holding door open is offensive. It's too arbitrary. It does confuse men. And the world is confusing enough without create unecessary anxieties about the little things.

It is ridiculous to be offended by people who are polite to you. The world is full of people who aren't.

I like men who hold doors open for me. I like the ones who hold doors open for other men, even more.

exactly. it's a case of screwed if you do, screwed if you dont.

going back to the door example, if you hold the door open, either youre just following social rules for appearances or you really just wanted to hold the door open.

if you were to just open the door, walk through it, and let it close behind you, although you might be avoiding expressing insincere concern, chances are you will just be seen as rude.

ultimately, it is about intentions, but that doesnt mean they can be determined so easily as through actions (or lack thereof) like this, which is why i cant condone making such a big deal out of them.

[Lucifer]

Oh..ok... I must have stumbled into the wrong thread. I thought the debate was about behaviour, (opening doors, pulling out chairs and whatnot) not intention. Intention isn't something we can do a whole lot about, after all.

FWIW, I don't think it is helpful for women to contextualize polite conventions. E.g. Life partner holding door open is a good thing, Business Partner holding door open is offensive. It's too arbitrary. It does confuse men. And the world is confusing enough without create unecessary anxieties about the little things.

It is ridiculous to be offended by people who are polite to you. The world is full of people who aren't.

I like men who hold doors open for me. I like the ones who hold doors open for other men, even more.

:wubbie:

[ptgatsby]

exactly. it's a case of screwed if you do, screwed if you dont.

Not really - if you are just polite to everyone and do the same level to everyone, there aren't too many issues.

I tend to follow the utilitarian rule regardless of who it is, and I think less of men and women who don't. It covers the social reason just fine.

[kuranes]

We've been focused mostly in this thread about what hoops men may choose or be obligated to jump through. But there are other hoops...... that women have to jump through, as part of being considered a "lady" by some, also; and that we may put under the "scope" here. It can range from my original example of Hillary, to gossip about someone's "reputation" that often pits women against women.

[Tallulah]

Are there really people who are offended by someone holding a door open? Yeesh. It's just polite.

[Enyo]

well when it comes to marriage thats just a different story...

that all goes back to the other thread about women having it worse

How is that different? In the end, it was the nice guy who got the girl, which you had stated didn't happen.

[Enyo]

I can cook my own dinner, too (okay, actually, I order takeout more often than not), she wouldn't have to do things for me.

But doesn't what a man does to a woman with these courting gestures seem a bit smothering if you don't like being spoiled?

And another thing I absolutely do not understand is why couples feed each other. It doesn't make sense.

Oh, and the reason I don't date is because no one has expressed interest in me.

*shrugs* The husband cooks better than I do, and I'm a pretty damned good cook. I don't have to do those things for my husband. I do them as an expression of affection.

Who doesn't like being spoiled a little? Especially if it's an expression of affection?

And maybe some of your non-romantic ideals are why no one has expressed interest? If you never take the effort to make a girl feel at least a little bit special, then what makes you think that she's going to want to be with you and make you feel special?

[Uberfuhrer]

And maybe some of your non-romantic ideals are why no one has expressed interest? If you never take the effort to make a girl feel at least a little bit special, then what makes you think that she's going to want to be with you and make you feel special?

Girls don't know that I'm unromantic. They've never even approached me to find out.

[GZA]

Girls don't know that I'm unromantic. They've never even approached me to find out.

Then trust me, they know you're unromantic. You got to do the approaching, pal. When was the last time a girl approached a guy? Roffles.

[Uberfuhrer]

When was the last time a girl approached a guy? Roffles.

See, that's the problem, why can't girls approach guys? Why must they have this sense of entitlement? This needs to change.

[Tallulah]

See, that's the problem, why can't girls approach guys? Why must they have this sense of entitlement? This needs to change.

It's not entitlement. I think introverted NT men generally don't mind a girl making the first move, but with a lot of guys, the girl taking the initiative makes her less of a challenge, and therefore, less desirable. Silly, yeah, but it's often the case.

[Uberfuhrer]

But since when did men care about being challenged?

[GZA]

What about sexuality and relationships ever makes any sense or is remotely logical? I think the fact this manners thing is a matter of debate demonstrates that quite well. Logically we can all do it ourselves, but...... get what I mean? Girls do kind of approach guys in that they flirt back or whatever (an indirect and passive way), but it's usually us guys who have to ask for the number and what not. Learn to love it, cause it aint going to change! Not even with radical feminism that says "I can give you my own number, thank you" :tongue:

Don't most people like being challenged? :huh:

[Enyo]

See, that's the problem, why can't girls approach guys? Why must they have this sense of entitlement? This needs to change.

I can. Or, at least, I could. And I could laugh and flirt and tease like mad. However, I never asked for the guy's phone number. Ever. I'd give mine, if asked, which would leave the ball in his court to call or not to call.

[ajblaise]

I can. Or, at least, I could. And I could laugh and flirt and tease like mad. However, I never asked for the guy's phone number. Ever. I'd give mine, if asked, which would leave the ball in his court to call or not to call.

Yeah I don't mind when women do this, as long as they are at least giving some kind of signals.

[Enyo]

Yeah I don't mind when women do this, as long as they are at least giving some kind of signals.

But, by the same token, there has to be some response for it to continue. If I smile at you, and you remain stone-faced, for example, you've already told me that it's not worth the effort for some random guy.

[ajblaise]

But, by the same token, there has to be some response for it to continue. If I smile at you, and you remain stone-faced, for example, you've already told me that it's not worth the effort for some random guy.

Fair enough.. but some guys might be oblivious to your signals at first..but I guess if it's just a random person.

[CaptainChick]

YouTube - Tom Jones - She's a Lady (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvmyTZEqlo8)

Now that's what I'm talkin' about!!!

Mrow!!!

[Uberfuhrer]

Don't most people like being challenged? :huh:

I made that as a joke, since this thread is filled with man haters who believe men are shallow and simple.

Why can't this change? Just because it's the way it's always been done doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.

I mean, do you have any idea how much anxiety I experience when I've ever tried to approach a girl? I mean, girls aren't going to find me interesting because I'm pretty dull and boring. What would I talk about? I refuse to talk about the weather.

[Enyo]

I made that as a joke, since this thread is filled with man haters who believe men are shallow and simple.

Why can't this change? Just because it's the way it's always been done doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.

I mean, do you have any