For those in long term successful relationships?

[BerberElla]

I'm curious to know what you think the magical ingrediant is that keeps your relationship/marriage ticking along and lasting?

Is your partner really that perfect or is it that you have learned to overlook/settle inspite of your partner doing many things or even a few things that annoy you or you dislike?

It just seems to me that all the people I know who are in long term relationships seem to be settling and putting up with behaviour that would drive me mad after a certain amount of time.

I mean I will try to ignore certain things, try and convince myself that they are not important, and that there are numerous good qualities to said person. However eventually those things I am ignoring will come to the surface and I will lose patience and the relationship will be over.

There are things I would break up over that others would find unbelievably ridiculous, it might not be for years but eventually I crack because I'm an idealist (of course lol) and my ideal isn't so ideal anymore.

So how do you do it? :shock: Are you settling or have you truly found the one?

[Trinity]

Relata-what :huh:

Yeah I know, I'm helpful.

There are things I would break up over that others would find unbelievably ridiculous, it might not be for years but eventually I crack because I'm an idealist (of course lol) and my ideal isn't so ideal anymore.


I get that :yes:

[animenagai]

hmmm? call me unqualified but there seems to be only 2 options here.

1. you guys are different and you have to put up with it.

2. you guys somehow magically really match since day 1 and have next to no problems.

i can't really see a 3rd option. that's why you do mbti stuff :D

[Jennifer]

...Is your partner really that perfect or is it that you have learned to overlook/settle inspite of your partner doing many things or even a few things that annoy you or you dislike?

I think you just learn about who the other person authentically is and then decide to accept them regardless, and be committed to them. Some people have traits that are very hard for one to accept, other ones seem easier to embrace more quickly.

But I do not feel there is any sort of magic bullet. It's much like "family." You're stuck with your relatives, even if at some point you choose to cut them out of your life, so you learn to deal or you do not.

Yes, there are some things that perhaps can't/shouldn't be accepted from a spouse, but right or wrong we end up having to make that decision personally.

I remember early on in a relationship, I would fight about things with them because they were not meeting my expectations, and vice versa. I eventually had to learn to let go of my expectations and accept things where they were at the time, or it would just become this entrenched battle of who was going to "win out." Once we were able to be a team together, then sometimes the things I didn't like would work themselves out -- either they chose to change themselves (since now we were not fighting over it) or it ceased to matter as much to me. Still, there are just some behaviors we might be aware to be "deal breakers" and we just cannot accept, so we should avoid relationships that include them.

[cafe]

R-E-S-P-E-C-T?

I'll echo Jennifer here: stay away from people who engage in deal-breaking behaviors then apply some humility and a sense of humor to the situation. For every annoying little thing your partner does, realize that you do stuff that irritates them, too. Also, look for practical, win/win solutions.

Example: My husband tends to roll around and pull the sheets off the bed leaving me to sleep on bare mattress. Annoying as heck, but he probably can't help it. Solution- those little stretchy straps for immobilizing husbands holding sheets on.

[ceecee]

Yes there are things that drive me batty. Any time a major (even not so major) purchase comes up it has to be researched and compared and investigated TO DEATH.

My husband is a triathlete and he has been looking to buy a new bike. Great. But they run anywhere from about $1000 to $5000. Once the decision to buy is made it begins. The first time I went through this with him (he waterskis also) he was buying a new waterski boat. I realized then that he loves the hunt more than anything. Loves the good deal. That part of buying is just as satisfying as the item itself but it started to drive me crazy after about a month of this everyday and asking what I thought.

BUY THE BOAT! ANY BOAT! I don't care. I drive the thing, I can drive any boat. Just...buy..something PLEASE! You're killing me Smalls!

That's the state he had me in. I wanted to punch him in the mouth if I heard a sentence with boat one more time. It's not that I am against a good deal (hardly) and certainly not researching a product. But the massive amount of energy he puts out in this process is very inefficient to me.

When it came time to get this bike..I knew it was coming. So I just let him be and do what he does best and not pay much attention to the method. He did find a bike after about 3 weeks of searching. $700 and it was exactly what he wanted. And when he brought it home and was riding and trying it out..he looked so happy. That's the payoff for me and what I try to focus on each time he wants to buy something and this process begins. There are very few things he does that bother me and those small things, I do overlook. As he does mine. Bigger things we talk about and always try to negotiate the best for both of us.

[BerberElla]

Still, there are just some behaviors we might be aware to be "deal breakers" and we just cannot accept, so we should avoid relationships that include them.

Like chewing with their mouth open, not putting the seat up or missing the seat and not cleaning up after themselves, slurping their hot drinks, being tight fisted and resembling scrooge, being such a light sleeper that I'm too nervous to sleep just incase I sleep talk, being too affectionate, not being affectionate enough, tidy but aware that men can tidy up too or am I being over the top? :newwink:

For every annoying little thing your partner does, realize that you do stuff that irritates them, too.

Oh I do, but then it annoys me that anything I could do could be annoying to them because if they loved me then they wouldn't find me annoying, they would find every little thing I do perfect in it's own way. The mere fact that I'm finding them annoying might be because I don't love them as much as I should do? Or again am I being a fruitloop?

It's ok, I know I'm being irrational deep down but I can't help seeing cracks in places that other people would plaster and sand down as good as new.

Example: My husband tends to roll around and pull the sheets off the bed leaving me to sleep on bare mattress. Annoying as heck, but he probably can't help it. Solution- those little stretchy straps for immobilizing husbands holding sheets on.

Tried that with the toilet thing, but if I'm in a hurry, and believe me after having kids I am in a hurry when I need to go, stopping to clean up his mess just infuriates me.

[BerberElla]

Yes there are things that drive me batty. Any time a major (even not so major) purchase comes up it has to be researched and compared and investigated TO DEATH.

My husband is a triathlete and he has been looking to buy a new bike. Great. But they run anywhere from about $1000 to $5000. Once the decision to buy is made it begins. The first time I went through this with him (he waterskis also) he was buying a new waterski boat. I realized then that he loves the hunt more than anything. Loves the good deal. That part of buying is just as satisfying as the item itself but it started to drive me crazy after about a month of this everyday and asking what I thought.

BUY THE BOAT! ANY BOAT! I don't care. I drive the thing, I can drive any boat. Just...buy..something PLEASE! You're killing me Smalls!

That's the state he had me in. I wanted to punch him in the mouth if I heard a sentence with boat one more time. It's not that I am against a good deal (hardly) and certainly not researching a product. But the massive amount of energy he puts out in this process is very inefficient to me.

When it came time to get this bike..I knew it was coming. So I just let him be and do what he does best and not pay much attention to the method. He did find a bike after about 3 weeks of searching. $700 and it was exactly what he wanted. And when he brought it home and was riding and trying it out..he looked so happy. That's the payoff for me and what I try to focus on each time he wants to buy something and this process begins. There are very few things he does that bother me and those small things, I do overlook. As he does mine. Bigger things we talk about and always try to negotiate the best for both of us.

You would hate me then, I research and compare for ages and then just give up because I can't make a final decision. :laugh:

There is no pay off because I get depressed that I could never make that decision and still didn't buy what I wanted.

Been trying to choose a piano for over a year now.

So to some extent it appears that settling is part of it, and perhaps the deal breakers shouldn't be the little things. It's hard though because a little thing by itself isn't a big deal, but you could say it was like poison, certain poisons kill instantly, some poisons kill slowly, well for me the little things are that poison that kills the relationship eventually. :(

[INTJMom]

I'm curious to know what you think the magical ingrediant is that keeps your relationship/marriage ticking along and lasting?

Is your partner really that perfect or is it that you have learned to overlook/settle inspite of your partner doing many things or even a few things that annoy you or you dislike?

It just seems to me that all the people I know who are in long term relationships seem to be settling and putting up with behaviour that would drive me mad after a certain amount of time.

I mean I will try to ignore certain things, try and convince myself that they are not important, and that there are numerous good qualities to said person. However eventually those things I am ignoring will come to the surface and I will lose patience and the relationship will be over.

There are things I would break up over that others would find unbelievably ridiculous, it might not be for years but eventually I crack because I'm an idealist (of course lol) and my ideal isn't so ideal anymore.

So how do you do it? :shock: Are you settling or have you truly found the one?
You have to find someone who you believe you can't live without,
someone who you believe in, and who believes in you,
someone who brings out the best in you, and you, the best in them.
Then you make sure that divorce is not an option for either of you, because if it is,
you haven't found the person you can't live without,
you're just settling for someone you think you can live with.
After that, it's till death do us part, baby!

When two persons are committed to each other, and divorce is not an option, it provides for comfort and security in the relationship.
It provides a foundation for openness and intimacy.

We just had our 26th anniversary, and we met 28 years ago. Nobody's perfect. Even though I found the man of my dreams, and I was sure I couldn't live without him, we went through a pretty rough time that spanned about 10 years. We were "emotionally separated" for a long time. If we had divorced then, we would have missed out on the value of a relationship that has withstood trouble. Yeah, we both have annoying habits the other one overlooks. That's what love is. Love overlooks the bad. Love concentrates on the good.

By the way, I know of many INFP/ISTJ combinations that are very happy, in case you're wondering. :newwink:

[BerberElla]

INFP/ISTJ combinations

I was married to an ISTJ, never again is all I can say lol talk about living through a nightmare. I'm sure there are many ISTJ's who are balanced, however the 2 that I do know were not balanced in the slightest even if they made a pretty good show of it to the outside world.

Also when it comes to divorce not being an option, I always believed that I was final on that point, that I would stick and work through a relationship regardless of what was thrown at me, I find that I could not stick to that because sometimes who you think you have married is nothing like the real person they turn out to be.

People change and you can't promise to like the person they become.

[BryNTP]

I'll echo Jennifer here: stay away from people who engage in deal-breaking behaviors then apply some humility and a sense of humor to the situation.

Could you expand on this? Were you saying to 1. stay away from deal-breakers and then 2. apply some sense of humor to it

OR

1. stay away from deal-breakers that apply a sense of humor to it later?

[cafe]

Could you expand on this? Were you saying to 1. stay away from deal-breakers and then 2. apply some sense of humor to it

OR

1. stay away from deal-breakers that apply a sense of humor to it later?
:alttongue: If someone is a possessor of deal-breakers, don't make a deal with them.

Once you've found someone who is not the possessor of deal-breakers, use your sense of humor to surmount the small piddly stuff that you're going to have to deal with no matter who you are with.

Like chewing with their mouth open, not putting the seat up or missing the seat and not cleaning up after themselves, slurping their hot drinks, being tight fisted and resembling scrooge, being such a light sleeper that I'm too nervous to sleep just incase I sleep talk, being too affectionate, not being affectionate enough, tidy but aware that men can tidy up too or am I being over the top? :newwink:
Maybe a little over the top there unless you are, to quote the wise words of Weird Al, a world famous billionaire Bikini supermodel astrophysicist. :unsure:

Oh I do, but then it annoys me that anything I could do could be annoying to them because if they loved me then they wouldn't find me annoying, they would find every little thing I do perfect in it's own way. The mere fact that I'm finding them annoying might be because I don't love them as much as I should do? Or again am I being a fruitloop?
Anybody you live with is going to annoy the heck out of you from time to time. I mean, don't your kids annoy you on occasion? Does that mean you don't love them?

It's ok, I know I'm being irrational deep down but I can't help seeing cracks in places that other people would plaster and sand down as good as new.
I think it probably comes down to priorities. To me there are majors and their are minors. I can overlook most of the minors if the majors are good.

Tried that with the toilet thing, but if I'm in a hurry, and believe me after having kids I am in a hurry when I need to go, stopping to clean up his mess just infuriates me.
Separate bathrooms?

[ptgatsby]

I'm curious to know what you think the magical ingrediant is that keeps your relationship/marriage ticking along and lasting?

There are a lot of things out there that are important... Respect, communication, intimacy... but everything that you need is conditional upon using it positively, which is where so many relationships fail.

For example, communication is critical, but it isn't communication itself that determines success, but the positive application. Talking about how each person feels in the relationship, where they want to go, what they expect, the money situation (... ...) is completely different than polishing off insults and playing little power games with words.

I have found that the absolute best tool, with that in mind, is to apply game theory to the relationship. You want to maximise utility and must be willing to take steps to prevent defection. This means that both people must be transparent - money needs to be transparent, so that defection (outside spending) is nearly impossible. Trust is good, but trust is too easily betrayed in a single moment of weakness - and we are all weak at some point. Trust can unwind in an instant, and transparency, by design, helps prevent that. It applies from everything from money, cheating, work, expectations, purchases...

It also works well for getting maximum utility. By moving the argument away from you two and trying to find a mutual solution on tangible metrics, most conflicts can be resolved in a way that is less personal, more effective and trust building. It does, however, require the couple to always be willing to abide by the guidelines set out. It takes time to develop the communication framework to allow this.


Is your partner really that perfect or is it that you have learned to overlook/settle inspite of your partner doing many things or even a few things that annoy you or you dislike?


My partner is as perfect as I am, which is to say, not at all. Each person have different abilities and preferences, some of which come out in negative ways, and some which come out in positive ways. There is no perfect, only balance, and we won't agree on what is balanced.

Tolerate the bad, embrace the good and respect the whole.


It just seems to me that all the people I know who are in long term relationships seem to be settling and putting up with behaviour that would drive me mad after a certain amount of time.


That essentially sums up what is required. Reasonable judgment over what is acceptable and what is not is a critical component in surviving a relationship.

So how do you do it? :shock: Are you settling or have you truly found the one?

Everyone settles, by definition. The only 'one' there is is the one you chose, and how much of "the one" is "the one" really depends on the dynamics of the relationship and those involved.

Of course, making a mate selection based on your needs from the start is a good idea :D But even the right person becomes wrong without the right dynamics.

[INTJMom]

pt:
Awesome Post! :yes:

(though maybe too much like engineering for some non-T minds :newwink:)

[ptgatsby]

(though maybe too much like engineering for some non-T minds :newwink:)

Point taken :D

All I'm really saying is that you need to craft a relationship over time. The tools you use mold the relationship, but like physical tools, you can also damage what you are trying to build if you don't use them positively.

It all stems from not being able to control a relationship. It's not about more effort - more effort can work against you. Everyone is setting up tools (ie: "systems"/"dynamics") - how communication works, how you deal with transparency, goal setting...

It's how they are used that defines the relationship. All of us will use them as weapons against out mates at some point... and most of us will ignore using them at all.

[cafe]

pt:
Awesome Post! :yes:

(though maybe too much like engineering for some non-T minds :newwink:)
Not to me. So many people will invest a great deal of thought and study into careers, purchases, etc, but so few seem to have any kind of theory or plan for relationships, especially romantic ones. I guess because it's not romantic?

I've actually had a T tell me the way I went about things in my relationship with my husband was 'too calculated' for them or something like that.

We kind of like the 'love bank' idea and I think of most things in terms of Return On Investment, though not in terms of financial investment so much (not that that's a bad idea.)

[ptgatsby]

I guess because it's not romantic?

I think there are deeper causes...

1) People inherently don't want to admit that their relationship could fail. This puts a strong bias into the "ignore the problem, we'll make it". It's only once it is too late, often with failure staring them in the face, that they realise that they ignored a great deal of signs/work that should of been done. Having to 'design' a relationship means you have to look at how it could fail well in advance. I find very few willing to face that.

2) I find that people also tend to dislike seeing things in systems, including themselves. Most still act from their own ("selfish") point of view. A good example is in sacrifices and compromises. In reality, both don't appeal to a system, they both trigger "I'm doing this for you" rather than "this is what is best for both". I think parents might understand this better - quite often two different approaches to raising kids end up working against each other. Rather than combine and determine the best parts of each, and have both people adopt them, the two parents will use only their approach. It applies in many ways, but the result is that a relationship can be stressed when both parties are "doing it for the other", because the implication is that the other better respect that they are. In many cases, it builds up a ton of resentment, point counting and other destructive behaviour.

3) I positively hate the love conquers all attitude, but believe this may be most common attitude. All too often love is treated like a practical thing, something that holds the relationship together. It isn't. Love is why you are in a relationship, and it is why you work on the relationship, it's the value, the ouput and the meaning of it. To keep it, you must put in work. It doesn't matter if you think of it like growing a tree, nuturing it (I know, I'm NFing poorly, sorry :D ), like a business transaction (rate of return) or a physics problem (equal and opposite/transformative energy)... it comes down to the same thing. The phrase isn't "I love you so I will be with you forever", it's "I love you so I am willing to work to stay together".

4) The last one is probably the worst. When you remove the romantic from most relationships, not much is left. There is rarely a reason to stay together. Unless your relationship was built from the start on mutual goals, agreements and directions, chances are that the individuals have grown apart. Having to suddenly go through the motions to "design" a relationship means you have to face that the 'romantic' side hid a lot of incompatibilities. Problem is, love tends to fade if you don't do it, and so either way you will come face to face with it.


There is lots of room for how to work with a relationship, but I think those four are the ones that I've noticed the most. Each couple needs to determine their own system - I can't think in terms of love bank, but I do believe it is a good method, especially for parents.

[BerberElla]

Anybody you live with is going to annoy the heck out of you from time to time. I mean, don't your kids annoy you on occasion? Does that mean you don't love them?

They do but not in the same way because children are children. But a grown man that I simply felt some love for before he started failing my ideal mate, I find harder to fight the resentment and that's how the love fades.

I know it's wrong, infact maybe the resnetment comes from forgiving a big deal breaker but not really forgetting, so the little things become the icing on the really crummy cake.




Separate bathrooms?

Bigger bank balance? ;) Anyway I'm not in a relationship now but when I have been I have found myself behaving in the manner I'm describing.

[BerberElla]

There are a lot of things out there that are important... Respect, communication, intimacy... but everything that you need is conditional upon using it positively, which is where so many relationships fail.

For example, communication is critical, but it isn't communication itself that determines success, but the positive application. Talking about how each person feels in the relationship, where they want to go, what they expect, the money situation (... ...) is completely different than polishing off insults and playing little power games with words.

I have found that the absolute best tool, with that in mind, is to apply game theory to the relationship. You want to maximise utility and must be willing to take steps to prevent defection. This means that both people must be transparent - money needs to be transparent, so that defection (outside spending) is nearly impossible. Trust is good, but trust is too easily betrayed in a single moment of weakness - and we are all weak at some point. Trust can unwind in an instant, and transparency, by design, helps prevent that. It applies from everything from money, cheating, work, expectations, purchases...

It also works well for getting maximum utility. By moving the argument away from you two and trying to find a mutual solution on tangible metrics, most conflicts can be resolved in a way that is less personal, more effective and trust building. It does, however, require the couple to always be willing to abide by the guidelines set out. It takes time to develop the communication framework to allow this.



My partner is as perfect as I am, which is to say, not at all. Each person have different abilities and preferences, some of which come out in negative ways, and some which come out in positive ways. There is no perfect, only balance, and we won't agree on what is balanced.

Tolerate the bad, embrace the good and respect the whole.



That essentially sums up what is required. Reasonable judgment over what is acceptable and what is not is a critical component in surviving a relationship.



Everyone settles, by definition. The only 'one' there is is the one you chose, and how much of "the one" is "the one" really depends on the dynamics of the relationship and those involved.

Of course, making a mate selection based on your needs from the start is a good idea :D But even the right person becomes wrong without the right dynamics.

Fantastic post, I have missed your sensible attitude :wubbie:

I think your explanation of transparency over trust is definately worth trying, I usually do the "love conquers all" thing which doesn't actually work against relaity. :doh:

[BerberElla]

pt:
Awesome Post! :yes:

(though maybe too much like engineering for some non-T minds :newwink:)


Oddly I have always found ptgatsby really easy to understand when he is giving advice because he explains things in terms I can understand.

Is he a secret F or am I a secret T just waiting to bust out of this emotional shell? :newwink:

[BerberElla]

I think there are deeper causes...

1) People inherently don't want to admit that their relationship could fail. This puts a strong bias into the "ignore the problem, we'll make it". It's only once it is too late, often with failure staring them in the face, that they realise that they ignored a great deal of signs/work that should of been done. Having to 'design' a relationship means you have to look at how it could fail well in advance. I find very few willing to face that.

Yes I do this, I think IIRC I read in a type descriptions that idealising and ignoring bad traits in order to maintain that ideal image is something that infp's do alot of.



2) I find that people also tend to dislike seeing things in systems, including themselves. Most still act from their own ("selfish") point of view. A good example is in sacrifices and compromises. In reality, both don't appeal to a system, they both trigger "I'm doing this for you" rather than "this is what is best for both". I think parents might understand this better - quite often two different approaches to raising kids end up working against each other. Rather than combine and determine the best parts of each, and have both people adopt them, the two parents will use only their approach. It applies in many ways, but the result is that a relationship can be stressed when both parties are "doing it for the other", because the implication is that the other better respect that they are. In many cases, it builds up a ton of resentment, point counting and other destructive behaviour.

I find myself doing this and when i was married I did it too, I felt that my way was better (I still believe that :newwink:) and refused to take on board anything he would suggest (many reasons). I find I have mellowed out now and am more prepared to allow him some say in how to parent, but only on minor things.



3) I positively hate the love conquers all attitude, but believe this may be most common attitude. All too often love is treated like a practical thing, something that holds the relationship together. It isn't. Love is why you are in a relationship, and it is why you work on the relationship, it's the value, the ouput and the meaning of it. To keep it, you must put in work. It doesn't matter if you think of it like growing a tree, nuturing it (I know, I'm NFing poorly, sorry :D ), like a business transaction (rate of return) or a physics problem (equal and opposite/transformative energy)... it comes down to the same thing. The phrase isn't "I love you so I will be with you forever", it's "I love you so I am willing to work to stay together".

Heh, as I said above I do this almost always. Don't get me wrong, I have tried to work through problems first, I have been pretty much as self sacrificing as you can get which totally destroyed any pride I had.

people say pride is a bad thing to have but I believe some pride should be maintained and if you find yourself having none because of all you have given in on in order to work out the problems, the resentment builds.



4) The last one is probably the worst. When you remove the romantic from most relationships, not much is left. There is rarely a reason to stay together. Unless your relationship was built from the start on mutual goals, agreements and directions, chances are that the individuals have grown apart. Having to suddenly go through the motions to "design" a relationship means you have to face that the 'romantic' side hid a lot of incompatibilities. Problem is, love tends to fade if you don't do it, and so either way you will come face to face with it.

I can handle romance fading if you are left with something deeper than flowers and poetry, I look forward to finding the person i can do that with one day.

Thanks for your common sense ptgatsby :wubbie:

[ptgatsby]

I think your explanation of transparency over trust is definately worth trying, I usually do the "love conquers all" thing which doesn't actually work against relaity. :doh:


This was hard for me for a long time. My parents destroyed the trust in their relationship. For the longest time I felt it was one sided... but over time, I realised that both sides were to blame. A relationship is all about working together - how can one side be blameless when they aren't involved? Transparency is just a word that both are involved, able to see what is happening and so forth. You can't "trust" someone to make the right decisions for both of you - it's unfair and unwise. It sets both people up for failure. The one responsible might even be doing his best, but not understand, or have bad luck, or any number of reasons. The other won't know what is happening, will expect things that aren't grounded, and will blame the other no matter how hard they try.


Yes I do this, I think IIRC I read in a type descriptions that idealising and ignoring bad traits in order to maintain that ideal image is something that infp's do alot of.

I wouldn't be surprised if INFPs tend to... uhh... become selectively biased on what they notice/get impacted on. Other types are quite good at ignoring problems outright, too. ISTPs and INTJs come to mind :)



People say pride is a bad thing to have but I believe some pride should be maintained and if you find yourself having none because of all you have given in on in order to work out the problems, the resentment builds.


I strongly agree. I think compromise is a very misused word in relationships. It shouldn't be both people sacrificing and resigning themselves to it - in game theory terms, it causes both people to resent each other, which is actually worse than one person being dominant!


I can handle romance fading if you are left with something deeper than flowers and poetry, I look forward to finding the person i can do that with one day.

:) We all have different needs. Mine are all about my future goals - travelling, retirement, projects... so my relationship is virtually a business arrangement ("with benefits" :D ). Not everyone would be happy with that, for sure. Some want more (different?) meaning to it, where I find the greatest meaning to come from enabling each other to achieve.

Thanks for your common sense ptgatsby :wubbie:

Sadly, if it was common, it'd be redundant for me to say it! :(

[ceecee]

You would hate me then, I research and compare for ages and then just give up because I can't make a final decision. :laugh:

:(

Oh no. Failure is not an option. It's out there somewhere and he'll find it come hell or high water. And for a good price.

[heart]

I've been with an INFJ for 20 years. Shared values are the most sustaining part of my relationship. I can turn to him on most any topic and say "This is insane" and he will agree and we understand what the other means on these issues.

[batumi]

Going to the dark side together or in turns and still wanting to work it out, afterward.
Who was that famous researcher on relationships and marriages? The one who said
attempts at making up after fights were very significant?
I wish I could recall his name.....
But I think that is the magic ingredient. A willingness to keep returning to the table.

[Jack Flak]

Desmond Morris, maybe? I don't recall him discussing that subject specifically, though he may have.

[sarah]

I'm curious to know what you think the magical ingrediant is that keeps your relationship/marriage ticking along and lasting?

Is your partner really that perfect or is it that you have learned to overlook/settle inspite of your partner doing many things or even a few things that annoy you or you dislike?

It just seems to me that all the people I know who are in long term relationships seem to be settling and putting up with behaviour that would drive me mad after a certain amount of time.

I mean I will try to ignore certain things, try and convince myself that they are not important, and that there are numerous good qualities to said person. However eventually those things I am ignoring will come to the surface and I will lose patience and the relationship will be over.

There are things I would break up over that others would find unbelievably ridiculous, it might not be for years but eventually I crack because I'm an idealist (of course lol) and my ideal isn't so ideal anymore.

So how do you do it? :shock: Are you settling or have you truly found the one?

Well, I don't know if being married for six and a half years counts yet, but I'd say that marital happiness has a lot to do with both parties making an effort to be thoughtful and considerate caretakers of the other's needs (in a psychological sense). But it only works if both people are doing this simultaneously.

Also, I think a shared sense of humor helps. Only fantasy spouses are always dressed sexily and are available whenever you are for lovemaking, always "low maintenance" (but somehow manage to wear fabulous clothing and look perfectly groomed), never leave messes anywhere, never forget important things, never say anything insensitive, never nook grubby while gardening/housecleaning/doing art projects, and never balk at doing boring chores. If both people can laugh at their mutual tendency to fail to live up to ideals, they end up having much more fun being married than those who are constantly complaining about their spouse not living up to their fantasies. Actually, if you think about it, the fun in a relationship begins where the fantasy leaves off, because then you know you're relating to a real person, not sombody's polished superficial self that they put on whenever they want to impress others.

Did I "settle"? Absolutely not. My husband's "perfect" in that I don't think his faults are the sort that I couldn't live with. On the other hand, he's definitely not a fantasy character, nor do I want him to be.

I hope you won't take any of what I've written negatively because it's not mean to be... but I'm thinking perhaps the best way you could answer your own question is to ask yourself if you honestly live up to your man's fantasies in every possible way, all the time, and if not, then do you really want to remedy all of what he'd label as your "flaws" in order to please him? If you'd rather not become his fantasy woman persona, then why would you want him to be your fantasy man persona?

Sarah
ISFP

[BerberElla]

Going to the dark side together or in turns and still wanting to work it out, afterward.
Who was that famous researcher on relationships and marriages? The one who said
attempts at making up after fights were very significant?
I wish I could recall his name.....
But I think that is the magic ingredient. A willingness to keep returning to the table.

Seems to me that eventually the mere fact that we kept needing to return to the table would be enough to kill it for me, especially if it's over the same thing.

[BerberElla]

I hope you won't take any of what I've written negatively because it's not mean to be... but I'm thinking perhaps the best way you could answer your own question is to ask yourself if you honestly live up to your man's fantasies in every possible way, all the time, and if not, then do you really want to remedy all of what he'd label as your "flaws" in order to please him? If you'd rather not become his fantasy woman persona, then why would you want him to be your fantasy man persona?

Sarah
ISFP


No don't worry, I didn't see it in a negative light, I know where you're coming from.

I honestly don't want someone to live up to my fantasies, for a start they couldn't because one they wouldn't have real wings, and two they wouldn't have any magical powers :wubbie:, they also wouldn't have a pet dragon but I can live without those things. :newwink:

It's about not being my worst nightmare. It's about a willingness to accommodate each others needs. If I need for instance him to pee into the toilet and not all over the seat, wouldn't he do it if he had respect for me and wanted to live in harmony with me? Or at least be seen to make an actual effort?

I'm not actually in a relationship anymore, and the marriage didn't break down over such trivial concerns such as the peeing all over the toilet wall, or any of the small things that drive me nuts but I put up with and settled for, and learnt to accept, it broke down for much more serious reasons of which I genuinelly don't feel I was to blame.

I just wanted to know how people deal with the small things, I mean what if you are the only one accepting flaws, and he is demanding you change into his fantasy ideal yet failing to live up to yours in everyway?

This question was prompted by watching my friend going through her relationship and those around me, all of them complaining constantly to me over many little things, and I wanted to hear how other people come to terms with them.

I think that's why I like gatsby's answer the best because it's less about "I love so much that those things are insignificant" because these women do love or so they profess, but more about what steps need to be taken in order to prevent those things arising which I see as being too late for some and something that needs to be implemented now for others.

Prevention being better than the cure and all. Plus it goes on the list of things I need to be aware of before I start a serious relationship ever again.

[FDG]

I have found that the absolute best tool, with that in mind, is to apply game theory to the relationship.

This is definitely, definitely the worst relationship advice. It's akin to relationship terrorism. Game-theory as applied to relationships is an attempt of strong thinking types to understand an inherently feeling mechanism by using their thinking part; it would just be better to let feeling types give the advice and stick game theory to its proper place.

[heart]

I'm not actually in a relationship anymore, and the marriage didn't break down over such trivial concerns such as the peeing all over the toilet wall, or any of the small things that drive me nuts but I put up with and settled for, and learnt to accept, it broke down for much more serious reasons of which I genuinelly don't feel I was to blame.

I'd never put up with living with a man who peed all over the place. I hear some of the women I know living with this. It's so UFB!

Small stuff to me is more whining about stuff from work or leaving socks on the bedroom floor, not spraying all of God's creation with your pee!

There's a basic selfishness in a person who wouldn't clean up or control themselves in this way, it's bound to extend outwards. Just like a man who won't give foreplay, there's gonna be deeper selfishness issues coming out there to eclipse it after a while.

[ptgatsby]

This is definitely, definitely the worst relationship advice. It's akin to relationship terrorism. Game-theory as applied to relationships is an attempt of strong thinking types to understand an inherently feeling mechanism by using their thinking part; it would just be better to let feeling types give the advice and stick game theory to its proper place.

*shrug*

I see it as the tool to take care of the practicalities in a relationship. It allows you to set up mutual understanding, communication and general system dynamics that encourage a healthy relationship.

It isn't "the relationship", it's just a tool. It helps define how to ensure mutually beneficial behavior and reduce defection. The "job" of running a household/kids/etc is fraught with practical concerns.

The only way it's negative, just like any "tool", is if it is used negatively. The same applies to communication, gifts, sex...

[Beat]

No one is perfect... You'll always have to "deal" to some extent. Hopefully you're with someone where you can communicate the differences and work together to minimize strife.

[Anja]

I have been married for forty-one years. And I've come to the conclusion that the question in the OP is one which could be problematic over a long period of time.

It can't, for me, be a case of "settling for" or "finding the one" because neither are possible in the long run. People are in flux; situations change.

For a long period of time I bought into that concept of the one true love. Talk about frustrating! My heart told me "yes" but then there were all those aggravations which seemed impossible to tolerate.

The thought of "settling" made me feel like a damaged/needy individual. It's really a rather unkind concept to assume that someone else is merely "settling" for a relationship. And there is a certain arrogance in that concept which could cause me some realistic self-esteem problems.

Who am I to assume that I am so superior to another individual that I am merely tolerating my relationship with him? Ick. Balance of power all screwed up even thinking in that mannner.

So, you know, it isn't that black and white.

A marriage is a partnership. Or needs to be for me. I want equal. And that has to balance out over time because sometimes he's driving the car and other times I am.

One needs to count on the strong one at the moment being able to carry more than his weight in certain times and situations. And vice-versa.

Over the years he has "settled for" some pretty outragious behavior from me and I have eaten more than my share of "stuff" as well. I see that less as a second-class choice and more as a reality of human connections.

I began to get clear on this somewhere around our twelfth year of marriage when I felt so torn. I loved him but I could hardly stand to live with him anymore and he felt the same. We had two nearly one-year separations trying to figure it out. Very painful and difficult for our children as well.

A counselor friend set me clear on that after listening to my long litany of sorrows. He said something so dumb and obvious that it knocked all the self-importance out of my little head. "Anja, do you want him or not?" Duh. There's my answer. Bottom line.

It's a matter of growth, adjustment, REASONABLE expectations. Forgiveness. Patience and faith. Good communication is a must. Mutual willingness and dedication. Sacrifice. Finally, love and persistance. All those corny things that so many prefer to reject.

And in the end that's exactly what has kept us bonded. Love is the glue.

__________________________________________________ _

On the light side we sometimes joke like this:

"You, know all these years you've been calling me an idiot? I've come to the conclusion you're right. I'm still married to you!"

Huggy-huggy, kissy-kissy. Little agression burnt off with a laugh.

[sarah]

No don't worry, I didn't see it in a negative light, I know where you're coming from.

I honestly don't want someone to live up to my fantasies, for a start they couldn't because one they wouldn't have real wings, and two they wouldn't have any magical powers :wubbie:, they also wouldn't have a pet dragon but I can live without those things. :newwink:

It's about not being my worst nightmare. It's about a willingness to accommodate each others needs. If I need for instance him to pee into the toilet and not all over the seat, wouldn't he do it if he had respect for me and wanted to live in harmony with me? Or at least be seen to make an actual effort?

I'm not actually in a relationship anymore, and the marriage didn't break down over such trivial concerns such as the peeing all over the toilet wall, or any of the small things that drive me nuts but I put up with and settled for, and learnt to accept, it broke down for much more serious reasons of which I genuinelly don't feel I was to blame.


Well, if not being able to lift a toilet seat to pee in the bowl is a purely physical problem, consider putting a box of wet wipes near the toilet and asking him to wipe the seat after every use. Or if you have two toilets, designate one as "his" so that he doesn't use yours, and he gets to clean his seat whenever when it gets gross. If it's a sign of something psychological, meaning he does that on purpose in order to retaliate against you or control you, then he probably needs psychological counseling. If you love him and he genuinely loves you, these things can be worked out via counseling -- but only if one partner isn't purposely controlling/manipulating the other.

Sarah
ISFP

[batumi]

Desmond Morris, maybe? I don't recall him discussing that subject specifically, though he may have.

I looked it up. John Gottman.

[wolfy]

I've been married for 15 years some things I have learned. Be friends. Give and take. Talk. Do stuff together and seperately. Don't forget your manners. Respect opinions. Wash the dishes and give shoulder massages. Never let contempt seep into the relationship. Have fun. Hang out the washing. Fight fair. Pay attention.

Often easier said than done though! :doh: