NFs and Romanticized views of their intellingce...

[Babylon Candle]

1. It might make sense that NTs would base their worth on intelligence more than NFs... but at a second glance I have noticed there might be a fundamental difference: NTs maybe find worth in their value of intelligence, as it is, period. NFs maybe find worth in a romanticized view of their intelligence.

2. I will cite myself as an example. extroverted intuition has given me a mind that NEVER TURNS OFF! Because of this, I often confuse the depth and length of analysis as intelligence. Second, I have a profound interest in ideas and people who postulate interesting ideas. I once again, confuse interests in these areas, with actually having the intelligence required to excel in those areas. Thirdly, I am a good mimic and enjoy trying to mimic those are the great idea people. Fourthly, I'm extremely competitive. I refuse to ever doubt the ability of my Ne...which can get me into trouble. Fifthly, I have learned over the years that I do best in school when I go into Te mode; I literally have a split personality when it comes to me in class versus me not doing those things. Yes, MANY people claim this dichotomy of work/play personalities. However, I feel that my contrast is much much stronger than normal. The point is, this highlights my affinity for mimicking and gaining too much confidence in my Te abilities (which I associate with being smart...so it drives me to mimic Te even more)...

3. Beyond the deceptions I have mentioned in point 2, many NF stereotypical activities do require some form of skill and abstract thinking. Writing good poetry, fiction, and exercising tact in human relations all require a degree of skill. NTs can obviously be good at these things as well. however, for the sake of conversation I am working with the archetypal view of NT intelligence being more quantitative. The fundamental difference I see here then, is that most of these NF intelligences are not quantitative. This leaves a lot of wiggle room for believed intelligence to extrapolate its perceived weight into fields that it may not actually excel in.

4. I often experience the dangers of being an NF who feels smarter than they actually are based on incorrectly extrapolating intelligence in verbal and arts to areas that my intelligence really does not excel at.

5. I am curious if anyone else ever experiences this romanticized view of their intelligence? I wonder if its a NF thing or even just a N thing?







edit: my inspiration for this post was how my sister challenged me to beat her score on an IQ test... I couldn't really figure out why I would get so bothered about a score (I beat her but I still was very upset about my score)...then I realized that I must be romanticizing my intelligence to something far above what my actual IQ is.

[heart]

I know, admit and grieve my limitations.

[ajblaise]

Have you made an effort to be more succinct in your analysis, conversation, debate....?

I think being overly verbose might not be due to your romanticized view of intelligence, but by the fact that people who aren't able to intellectually express themselves efficiently will compensate with bloviating.

[Cypocalypse]

If we view the cognitive process as measures of intelligence, then that alone would already give us 8 perspectives of looking at it. Si, Se, Ni, Ne, Ti, Te, Fi, and Fe.

School, most of the time, only emphasizes Si and Te.

Now, are they more important forms of intellegince than the others? I don't think so, but they're pretty much the archetypal way of looking at intelligence.

[Mondo]

I can relate to this.
Simply for the reason that intelligence is one of my only positive qualities.
Without it, I'm not anything else.

[Mitzy]

idk..depends on your definition of what 'intelligent' means to you...

[placebo]

I can relate to this.
Simply for the reason that intelligence is one of my only positive qualities.
Without it, I'm not anything else.

Something like this.

You grow up being told you're 'smart' as if you have nothing else to offer, and that's kind of what you grasp on to in the end.

[nolla]

At the moment I think intelligence is fine, but nothing special. I don't value it as it is. I like what you are saying, though. But, to me the "wiggle room" seems more like intelligence combined with creativity. And this is something I appreciate a lot more than intelligence alone. Even if it means that the creative person is less intelligent than the pure intelligent person.

[ajblaise]

Even if it means that the creative person is less intelligent than the pure intelligent person.

I've read that the most creative people tend to have IQs around 110.

[Cypocalypse]

More like someone who has a jacked up Ne, in my opinion.

[animenagai]

eh i dunno. either way, i'm not gonna be convinced that i'm not smart :D. honestly, i think a longing to be intelligent does help with the pursuit of intelligence. there's a reason NF's are such jack of all traits. our confidence level be it from romaticised reasons or not, help us with the learning curve.

[placebo]

I've read that the most creative people tend to have IQs around 110.

I read the most creative people are IQ'd in their 120s-130s and it stops around there (the increasing level of creativity as IQ also increases). But creative doesn't just mean good at fine arts of course... basically anyone who can really think outside of the box.

[chris1207]

School, most of the time, only emphasizes Si and Te.


Eh, more like Ni and Te. School's all about finding the deeper meaning in subjects, not referencing your experience with them. The use of examples, associated with S, is secondary.

And as for this topic, I dunno what I value as being a measure of intelligence. It could be how others perceive me, my grades, my ability to be responsible (especially with money), or something else. I'll have to think about this and get back to you.

[Babylon Candle]

Eh, more like Ni and Te. School's all about finding the deeper meaning in subjects, not referencing your experience with them. The use of examples, associated with S, is secondary.


I really like this post...but Ill just add this clarifier of my own:

k-12...............................Si/Te "show your work"
college and beyond............Ni/Te "I dont care, just get it right"

I have no doubt that when Im doing well in school, its usually because im making better use of Te. I doubt that i'm pairing it with Si though, because i almost NEVER use rote memorization! I have definitely done better in college. Here, no body cares about Si. I can pull the answer out of my ass (Ni) and nobody calls me on it :).

[nolla]

k-12...............................Si/Te "show your work"
college and beyond............Ni/Te "I dont care, just get it right"


It is ironical that when you get to do actual work, it goes back to Si/Te

[Santtu]

I approve of this tread. Incredibly insightful OP.

[Gish]

More like someone who has a jacked up Ne, in my opinion.

I jacked up my Ne playing sports.

[MrRandom]

I really like this post...but Ill just add this clarifier of my own:

k-12...............................Si/Te "show your work"
college and beyond............Ni/Te "I dont care, just get it right"

I have no doubt that when Im doing well in school, its usually because im making better use of Te. I doubt that i'm pairing it with Si though, because i almost NEVER use rote memorization! I have definitely done better in college. Here, no body cares about Si. I can pull the answer out of my ass (Ni) and nobody calls me on it :).

This is kind of interesting, because as an INFJ Te and Si are my last functions (7th and 8th, respectively). Although being smart, a sort of bookworm, well-behaved and potentially a great student, I never did very good at school. I didn't find most of the stuff either interesting or meaningful (or the childish way of teaching). Then again, I got great grades in the subjects that I did find worthy.

Then I got into an art college, got great grades most of the time and graduated with a scholarship and top of my class. What a change in school experiences!

I'll tell you an experience from college. We were to read a handful of specified books and report objectively what they were about and then analyze them in a more subjective manner. Although the writers were professionals in their given field, I didn't kind of digest their wisdom. I felt they really didn't know what they were writing about. I wrote quite a long and insightful paper on that. I was afraid I would get failed. It was a huge risk, but it paid out... my teacher was absolutely thrilled. He said I was the only student who had ever questioned the content, and that my points were valid and showed that I really understood what's going on. I got the best mark for it.

That's where I got to put my Ni to use. And that's where I shined.
(Although getting my Ni onto paper was a lot of work)

[BerberElla]

I thought I was reasonably intelligent but then I joined INTPcentral and saw that there were people much much smarter than me out there. :rofl1: It was a "devestating to my ego" few months.

But then in my community and social circle I'm pretty much as smart as it gets.

[Haphazard]

I'm probably the opposite.

"If you're really a language arts person, why are you so good at math and science and history and suck so badly at reading comprehension and writing anything halfway coherent?"

[jtanSis1]

T personalities are more into the mechanics of word usage than its meaning that F's like. N means were about word ideas instead of how it's used for S's. NT's are about intelligence as their strength. For NF's who want to know, we are about wisdom. We are actually very smart, but the IQ tests are orientated toward purely intelligence. Think of other areas where you have skills that others don't and you will see you are quite smart, just a different emphasis on how you apply it.

[Jack Flak]

T personalities are more into the mechanics of word usage than its meaning that F's like. N means were about word ideas instead of how it's used for S's. NT's are about intelligence as their strength. For NF's who want to know, we are about wisdom. We are actually very smart, but the IQ tests are orientated toward purely intelligence. Think of other areas where you have skills that others don't and you will see you are quite smart, just a different emphasis on how you apply it.
You're misusing the word wisdom a slight bit, but I think I know what you're trying to say. ;)

I have come to appreciate wisdom more than intelligence in myself, because I had one but not the other many years ago, and it was nothing but trouble.

[jtanSis1]

Wisdom is a concept of personal gaining of knowledge, understanding, experience, discretion, and intuitive understanding, along with a capacity to apply these qualities well towards finding solutions to problems. It is the judicious and purposeful application of knowledge that is valued in society. Got this from wikipedia, but is kind of what I meant about wisdom. I had a similar deal where I tried to find an answer about my life, and went through many self-help, religion, spirituality, metaphysics, psychology, and relationships etc., but until I could apply it, it was only knowledge.

[Jack Flak]

You are right of course, but NFs have more than NTs? I demand satisfaction. *throws down the gauntlet*

[Mitzy]

yea i guess i pride myself in being smart when i know there are a lot more smarter people than me..even in my own social circle

then again it could only be just my pride

but i dont find myself as "smart" i think im more intellectual and wise
im not about the facts and the figures and the books
its about the big picture for me

most people dont see that
which is why i say theyre all dumb :D

[GZA]

I used to be kind of a smartass. Maybe I stll am, but not as much, I don't know. It's no longer important to me to be smart. Winning a debate, knowin more facts, having more abstract ideas... I used to try to do all of that, but then I realized I was just being a dick. Being intelligent doesn't matter to me now because intelligence does not earn you anything. You have to do work and make things happen, which I'm finding is different from my idea of intelligence I was chasing before. So I guess I used to romanticize it and my own intelligence a lot but now I'm finding it's all irelevant anyway.

[jtanSis1]

NF's don't have more wisdom, they just are more inclined to that way of thinking. We look for knowledge with the intent to find meaning in an answer.

[Jack Flak]

NF's don't have more wisdom, they just are more inclined to that way of thinking. We look for knowledge with the intent to find meaning in an answer.
Perhaps the type of meaning is different, but that statement itself is still just as true for NTs....

[Into It]

NF's romanticize everything. Their intelligence shouldn't be any different. I think the answer to your question is a resounding "yes!" we do, even though the more careful of us try to look at this topic as realistically as possible. But what I don't like about this thread is that we are having a conversation about intelligence, but our meanings of "intelligence" are not well defined. There are people in here separating the word "intelligent" from "creative" and so on. Lucky for me and my argument which I haven't presented yet, people on an MBTI forum are familiar with how differently people think.
We are all given this dominant function which governs our thought processes, or isour thought process, and some are very different than others. Comparing Extraverted Judgement with introverted intuition- it's just apples and oranges. These IQ numbers as a basis for intelligence make me very uncomfortable. They are an accurate measure of one facet of intelligence- but others are more difficult to measure with paper. Maybe intelligence and creativity should be thought of as one in the same, as a mathematically proficient man who cannot think outside of the box- cannot come up with new ideas himself- is obviously lacking intellectually. Perhaps intelligence should mean the proficiency with which one can use the function he is most comfortable with. That way we cannot dismiss the intelligence needed to create some of the works of art that most of us would never be capable of. It may be that the advancement of societies or other practical applications of knowledge have become so important to us in measuring intelligence that more abstract manifestations of intelligence have been forgotten or viewed as 'lower' or 'lesser'. Math and English skills are just so easy to measure! Take into consideration both the minds who have constructed these tests ad the minds who uphold the institutions that administer them. There should not be this separation between abstract and concrete intelligence; they are both equally valid. In my opinion, any of the greatest artists or performers should be considered alongside any of our greatest physicists.

[Babylon Candle]

It is ironical that when you get to do actual work, it goes back to Si/Te

all that shit about showing your work comes back!? AHHHH!!!! :shock::doh::steam::cry:

common theme in this thread I am noticing: maybe the reason high IQ does not equal success, is because the real world is more Te than Ni/Ne (i realize comparing judging to perceiving is like apples to oranges)

It's no longer important to me to be smart. Winning a debate, knowin more facts, having more abstract ideas... I used to try to do all of that, but then I realized I was just being a dick. Being intelligent doesn't matter to me now because intelligence does not earn you anything. You have to do work and make things happen, which I'm finding is different from my idea of intelligence I was chasing before. So I guess I used to romanticize it and my own intelligence a lot but now I'm finding it's all irelevant anyway.

common theme:
1. real world work can often be more Te than any form of Ne/Ni (high intelligence)

2. I actually think you are proving my point: "Winning a debate, knowin more facts, having more abstract ideas... I used to try to do all of that, but then I realized I was just being a dick. " what does that sound like? It sounds like an NF who thinks they are smarter than they really are and goes around trying to prove it! (i am NOT attacking you :hug:, I admit that I do this too and I think its an NF thing. hence this thread)

NF's romanticize everything. Their intelligence shouldn't be any different. I think the answer to your question is a resounding "yes!" we do, even though the more careful of us try to look at this topic as realistically as possible. But what I don't like about this thread is that we are having a conversation about intelligence, but our meanings of "intelligence" are not well defined. There are people in here separating the word "intelligent" from "creative" and so on. Lucky for me and my argument which I haven't presented yet, people on an MBTI forum are familiar with how differently people think.
We are all given this dominant function which governs our thought processes, or isour thought process, and some are very different than others. Comparing Extraverted Judgement with introverted intuition- it's just apples and oranges. These IQ numbers as a basis for intelligence make me very uncomfortable. They are an accurate measure of one facet of intelligence- but others are more difficult to measure with paper. Maybe intelligence and creativity should be thought of as one in the same, as a mathematically proficient man who cannot think outside of the box- cannot come up with new ideas himself- is obviously lacking intellectually. Perhaps intelligence should mean the proficiency with which one can use the function he is most comfortable with. That way we cannot dismiss the intelligence needed to create some of the works of art that most of us would never be capable of. It may be that the advancement of societies or other practical applications of knowledge have become so important to us in measuring intelligence that more abstract manifestations of intelligence have been forgotten or viewed as 'lower' or 'lesser'. Math and English skills are just so easy to measure! Take into consideration both the minds who have constructed these tests ad the minds who uphold the institutions that administer them. There should not be this separation between abstract and concrete intelligence; they are both equally valid. In my opinion, any of the greatest artists or performers should be considered alongside any of our greatest physicists.

I agree with a lot of it...except:
You are supporting the view that is exactly what Im trying to show is maybe wrong. NFs always like to go on and on about how their intelligence is just, different. You list many areas where this differentness is claimed as a crutch for NFs.

being intellectual, reflective, and liking abstract ideas does not inherently make you intelligent or smart. There is nothing wrong with being those things. those interests are what often separate NFs from being the more superficial SF (not saying EVERY SF is superficial). there is a huge difference between liking those things and actually being very intelligent. All I am asserting, is that many NFs make the extrapolation from "being intellectual, reflective, and liking abstract ideas" to their view of their actual inherent intelligence. This is reflective of the NF ability to romanticize everything, to the point that their world view really does not reflect the true realty.

I am not attacking NFs. I AM an NF.

[Into It]

[QUOTE=Babylon Candle;344621]All I am asserting, is that many NFs make the extrapolation from "being intellectual, reflective, and liking abstract ideas" to their view of their actual inherent intelligence. This is reflective of the NF ability to romanticize everything, to the point that their world view really does not reflect the true realty.
QUOTE]
Right, we're guilty of this somewhat, and I'm asserting that each person's intellect should be judged according to their interests, so this inference may be valid, and it's our measure of intelligence that is not. I'm just being clear on my position. No music or aesthetics were involved when I took an IQ test. This idea of "EQ" has emerged though, so maybe that fills in some gaps, but I don't know anything about it.

[CaptainChick]

I have spent a lifetime underrating my intelligence.

[IEE623]

I used to be kind of a smartass. Maybe I stll am, but not as much, I don't know. It's no longer important to me to be smart. Winning a debate, knowin more facts, having more abstract ideas... I used to try to do all of that, but then I realized I was just being a dick. Being intelligent doesn't matter to me now because intelligence does not earn you anything. You have to do work and make things happen, which I'm finding is different from my idea of intelligence I was chasing before. So I guess I used to romanticize it and my own intelligence a lot but now I'm finding it's all irelevant anyway.

that statement of doing work and making things happen sounds like a demand from SJ surroundings.

[Orangey]

3. Beyond the deceptions I have mentioned in point 2, many NF stereotypical activities do require some form of skill and abstract thinking. Writing good poetry, fiction, and exercising tact in human relations all require a degree of skill. NTs can obviously be good at these things as well. however, for the sake of conversation I am working with the archetypal view of NT intelligence being more quantitative. The fundamental difference I see here then, is that most of these NF intelligences are not quantitative. This leaves a lot of wiggle room for believed intelligence to extrapolate its perceived weight into fields that it may not actually excel in.

4. I often experience the dangers of being an NF who feels smarter than they actually are based on incorrectly extrapolating intelligence in verbal and arts to areas that my intelligence really does not excel at.

5. I am curious if anyone else ever experiences this romanticized view of their intelligence? I wonder if its a NF thing or even just a N thing?

I think that you are mistakenly equating intelligence with "quantitative ability". I wasn't aware that this is the standard against which we are judging people's levels of intelligence, since standard IQ tests usually test verbal skills and memory as well.

[GZA]

common theme:
1. real world work can often be more Te than any form of Ne/Ni (high intelligence) When I say work, I mean the effort it takes to make something happen, to create something (which doesn't neccesarily mean art, it can be anything that involves changing the situation or circumstance). but yes, I suppose "Te" describes this, although I no longer believe in the functions in any real way.

2. I actually think you are proving my point: "Winning a debate, knowin more facts, having more abstract ideas... I used to try to do all of that, but then I realized I was just being a dick. " what does that sound like? It sounds like an NF who thinks they are smarter than they really are and goes around trying to prove it! (i am NOT attacking you :hug:, I admit that I do this too and I think its an NF thing. hence this thread)
Thats exactly it though, thats what I'm saying. I'm saying I was trying to prove I was more intelligent then other people when really, as I was saying, I was just being a snotty asshole. I'm pretty sure I included it in my previous post (but I havn't double checked) but intelligence is no longer a characteristic I am hell-bent on having. Especially in relation to other people. I'm intelligent enough for whatever it is I want to do, so all I care about it making things happen and materialize now. Thats what I mean by doing work, I mean that no matter how many philosophies, theories, ideas, ect you come up with, you will stagnate without taking action to materialize these ideas into something useful. So the short of it is that I used to be an NF who was trying to be smarter then everyone, but now I am a person who is trying to make things happen in my life, with the realization that being intelligent does not earn you anything in itself.

IEE623 Said:
that statement of doing work and making things happen sounds like a demand from SJ surroundings.

It has nothing to do with SJ's. No one has demanded it of me except myself. It's about putting dreams into action to make them a reality. It's about dreams and ambition being put into action to become your life and your love. In typological terms, it is Fi on steroids working out on a Te machine designed by a hundred Chuck Norris monkeys :tongue:

[Johnny23]

I'm not stoopid!!!!!!!!!!

[toonia]

I see intelligence as fluid based on context. My own mental skills are not consistently at the same level even given the same task on a different day. Also, the context of how intelligence rates amongst a peer group is variable. Intelligence is not a fixed attribute one can measure and point to like the length of one's nose. It plays out over time and in many contexts.

For some reason it is especially important to me to know where I stand intellectually and to accept the truth of it regardless of my initial assumptions about myself. The idea of romanticizing intelligence, especially if that means thinking more highly of one's skill than is truthful, is a specific turn-off in my mind. I suppose I have a fear that not knowing my limitations would be the ultimate form of stupidity. In the past I have gone to lengths to avoid it and end up second guessing myself often. The assumption that one already knows can be a barrier to learning. The only way I know to grow is to be able to diagnose most accurately what I don't know.