Give it up.......

[Bella]

............for Mizzzz Palin!


:heart::heart::heart::heart: WELL DONE! :heart::heart::heart::heart:

[kyuuei]

Did you mean the debate?

Edit: Sorry if that's an obvious question XD just have to confirm.

[Lateralus]

I bet that people who already liked Palin thought she did well in the debate, and people who already disliked her thought she did horribly.

[Jack Flak]

Did you mean the debate?

Edit: Sorry if that's an obvious question XD just have to confirm.
"Give it up. Just give. it. up." -- Eugene Belford, er, "The Plague." Lol.

[nottaprettygal]

Stop starting threads about her or I'm going to merge them all.

Especially since she did so terrible that she doesn't deserve 4328497324 threads.

[Eileen]

In the words of my good friend, "maverick energy mom from Alaska. MAVERICK!"

I thought she was pretty poised, but that sexxxy Joe Biden kicked her fucking ass.

[Jeffster]

I bet that people who already liked Palin thought she did well in the debate, and people who already disliked her thought she did horribly.

In the words of my good friend, "maverick energy mom from Alaska. MAVERICK!"

I thought she was pretty poised, but that sexxxy Joe Biden kicked her fucking ass.

And there ya go.

[kyuuei]

I bet that people who already liked Palin thought she did well in the debate, and people who already disliked her thought she did horribly.

+1.

[spirilis]

In the words of my good friend, "maverick energy mom from Alaska. MAVERICK!"

I thought she was pretty poised, but that sexxxy Joe Biden kicked her fucking ass.

w00t

Thank goodness Joe Biden was there to soothe my disgust.

[ajblaise]

Biden did as good as he could, he did a good job going after McCain, but this debate is about Palin. She didn't make any big gaffs, but she got a few facts wrong and avoided plenty of questions. She didn't come across quite as likable as she could of... the winking and everything was a little gimmicky, I don't know if everyone will buy that. She was very rehearsed.

Overall, Biden won, but this is still a net+ for Palin. She doesn't look as bad as she did earlier today, with her interview blunders.

[phoenix13]

............for Mizzzz Palin!


:heart::heart::heart::heart: WELL DONE! :heart::heart::heart::heart:

Aw, honey... :angry:

[6sticks]

No, I don't believe I will.

[Eileen]

And there ya go.

Yeah, quite frankly, that woman cannot get my vote for anything, and I find it horrifying that she would dare to mention women's rights.

And also, Joe Biden. <3 hott. SEXY TICKET.

[Udog]

Biden did as good as he could, he did a good job going after McCain, but this debate is about Palin. She didn't make any big gaffs, but she got a few facts wrong and avoided plenty of questions.

Better to dodge the question with a pre-rehearsed speech than say something horribly, horribly wrong.

I was impressed... she did well. She had a few good points and was able to answer the questions she didn't have answers to in such a boring way that no one will remember or care.

[Jeffster]

Yeah, quite frankly, that woman cannot get my vote for anything, and I find it horrifying that she would dare to mention women's rights.


That is horrifying! Women having rights? The very idea is preposterous!!

[ajblaise]

Better to dodge the question with a pre-rehearsed speech than say something horribly, horribly wrong.

I think she could have went outside her planned talking points and answered questions a little more directly without making a huge gaff.

McCain needed a better performance from her, he's down in the polls, but at least just by the fact that she showed up to the debate, people will talk less about her very poor interview appearances.

[Kyrielle]

Eventhough I wouldn't vote for her or McCain, I think she did an okay job what with her being a bit new to this. I could tell she was a bit nervous through the whole thing. What annoyed me was how obviously she would avoid questions and go to a topic she was just talking about that also had no relation to the question at hand. I'm not sure if it was her avoidance or her obiviousness in doing it that bothered me most though. I also got tired rather quickly of the "I'm a mom" and other "homey" kind of statements.

On the other hand, Biden's continuous reference to McCain rather than Palin troubled me. I figure it might be because Palin has too small of a track record to really call her out on anything.

Anyway, pretty good debate. I enjoyed watching it. Shame CNN had to post up that focus group graph. I ended up spending as much time making fun of when it would go up and down as I did actually listening to the debate.

[Udog]

I think she could have went outside her planned talking points and answered questions a little more directly without making a huge gaff.

McCain needed a better performance from her, he's down in the polls, but at least just by the fact that she showed up to the debate, people will talk less about her very poor interview appearances.

No, better to play it safe. She has a tendency to say the wrong thing when she improvises.

The fact that she held her own should actually provide a slight bump in the polls, I would think. I have a hard time believing she didn't restore some confidence tonight.

[ajblaise]

No, better to play it safe. She has a tendency to say the wrong thing when she improvises.

The fact that she held her own should actually provide a slight bump in the polls, I would think. I have a hard time believing she didn't restore some confidence tonight.

We know the two remaining McCain/Obama debates probably won't change much, this was the McCain campaign's last chance to get the big bump they need to win, and they didn't get it.

When you're down, you can't always afford to play it safe.

[IlyaK1986]

Palin is far too cute (and not just in looks) to be trusted with any position with the power of the VP and potentially the presidency. Look, this is a woman that I'd like to see at parties and have a drink and laugh with--but she seems to me that she's a big pal to everyone, but doesn't have anywhere near the capacity to do anything to right this country after the endless body blows our country has seen during the eight years of Bush.

Look, she's really cute as a button, what with her energy and her winking, but come on now...whatever she's done in Alaska she can keep doing. She's out of the way, and if her peeps are happy with her, so much the better. But we don't need a senile sometimes-maverick and a crazy energy MILF with no experience at the head of our country.

[AllAboutSoul]

In the words of my good friend, "maverick energy mom from Alaska. MAVERICK!"

I thought she was pretty poised, but that sexxxy Joe Biden kicked her fucking ass.

Word. Where is the substance?

[Cimarron]

Just had to say, I don't have much liking for his policies (past and present) but I think Joe Biden is awesome. His style and personality always give his speeches something that puts me in good spirits. Shout out to Joe. :)

[lowtech redneck]

I find it horrifying that she would dare to mention women's rights.


:rolli:

[kuranes]

Gives an image to the old phrase "talking head".

[Oberon]

...I find it horrifying that she would dare to mention women's rights.


[snerk]

Feminists are a hoot. Their point of view adds up to "Women don't count as women unless they're liberal women."

That's why they gave Clinton a pass on Paula Jones.

Here women have a crack at electing this country's very first female executive EVER... and if the Republicans win, there is an excellent chance that the nation will one day have a President Palin... and they're bitching like she's the antichrist.

Machs nicht to me. I won't be voting for either side of our ruling party.

[Oberon]

Word. Where is the substance?

You think any political debates have a nickel's worth of relevance to what the candidate will do if elected?

It's a dog-and-pony show, and has been for a long time. The winner gets picked on the basis of his Miss America skillz.

[pure_mercury]

Stop starting threads about her or I'm going to merge them all.

Especially since she did so terrible that she doesn't deserve 4328497324 threads.


This is really bad coming from a mod. Seriously.

[nottaprettygal]

This is really bad coming from a mod. Seriously.

Twas a joke. I'm not sure why as a mod I can't have a political opinion on her performance.

There are probably about 4 threads on Palin alone. None of them are completely the same, so I'm refraining myself.

[pure_mercury]

Twas a joke. I'm not sure why as a mod I can't have a political opinion on her performance.

There are probably about 4 threads on Palin alone. None of them are completely the same, so I'm refraining myself.

You don't do that when you have your mod hat on, and your opinion is clearly biased anyway. I saw a portion of that debate, and neither candidate bowled me over. Palin kept it simple and on message, but she is out of her depth on a lot of those issues. Biden rolled with his purple prose, but his rhetoric was strangely empty. Honestly, if you thought either candidate trounced the other, you're just showing your political stripes.

[nottaprettygal]

You don't do that when you have your mod hat on, and your opinion is clearly biased anyway. I saw a portion of that debate, and neither candidate bowled me over. Palin kept it simple and on message, but she is out of her depth on a lot of those issues. Biden rolled with his purple prose, but his rhetoric was strangely empty. Honestly, if you thought either candidate trounced the other, you're just showing your political stripes.

Okay. I'm confused. Are you arguing about my opinion of her debate performance or my empty threat to merge all of her threads (which was a joke)?

I don't think Biden trounced her. I probably agree with a lot of your analysis. All I said was that I think she did poorly. She failed to actually answer some questions and then started talking about something completely different that made me forget what the question even was. I suppose that was her purpose, so that she could get all of her talking points in.

My guess is that the expectations of her were a lot lower than I expected them to be if people are saying that she did well. Maybe they didn't think that she could properly form a sentence. I at least gave her that much credit before the debate.

As far as showing my political stripes. . . so? You show your political stripes in every single thread. You can read through every political thread. Never have I actually said that I support Obama. Actually, I'm not even sure if I've talked about my political ideology on this site, and it's definitely different from the ideology held by many. How that invalidates my opinion, I'm not sure.

[pure_mercury]

Okay. I'm confused. Are you arguing about my opinion of her debate performance or my empty threat to merge all of her threads (which was a joke)?

I don't think Biden trounced her. I probably agree with a lot of your analysis. All I said was that I think she did poorly. She failed to actually answer some questions and then started talking about something completely different that made me forget what the question even was. I suppose that was her purpose, so that she could get all of her talking points in.

My guess is that the expectations of her were a lot lower than I expected them to be if people are saying that she did well. Maybe they didn't think that she could properly form a sentence. I at least gave her that much credit before the debate.

As far as showing my political stripes. . . so? You show your political stripes in every single thread. You can read through every political thread. Never have I actually said that I support Obama. Actually, I'm not even sure if I've talked about my political ideology on this site, and it's definitely different from the ideology held by many. How that invalidates my opinion, I'm not sure.


I wouldn't throw in a snarky comment about a political figure if I were talking about merging threads as a mod. As far as I am concerned, that's bad form. If I become a mod on here, I will avoid modding in the Political threads because 1) I post in them so much; and 2) I wouldn't want even the appearance of impropriety. Post what you believe all you want; I love to read people's opinions and I love to debate. Just leave out the commentary when you are warning about merges, deletes, etc.

Also, I never claimed you were a diehard Obama supporter or anything. I've just noticed that EVERYONE who has been extremely positive or negative about Palin's performance in the debate seems to have made up his or her mind about her beforehand, anyway. It reads like a lot of rah-rah, homerish propaganda. I don't support Obama or McCain, and Palin doesn't really get my blood up. Or, she doesn't get it up any more than the average small-state politician. I could be making an ill-advised assumption here, so, if I am, I apologize. How do you feel about this election?

[nottaprettygal]

I wouldn't throw in a snarky comment about a political figure if I were talking about merging threads as a mod.

I apologize if the snarky comment wasn't well-recieved. I would never moderate based on my personal opinion of the topic or thread starter. However, last night there were three Palin threads going at once, and I do think that was too many. . . hence the comment. Of course, I didn't do anything about it.

I've just noticed that EVERYONE who has been extremely positive or negative about Palin's performance in the debate seems to have made up his or her mind about her beforehand, anyway. It reads like a lot of rah-rah, homerish propaganda.

I tuned in because I was curious. I wasn't really sure how she would do beforehand because sometimes that down-home washington outsider talk that she does really works. (It doesn't work on me, but I understand how it works on other people.) Admittedly, I didn't have a high opinion of her. I was watching more for the entertainment value, but I consider myself a fairly objective critic since I'm not emotionally invested in any of the candidates.

It just sounded as if the McCain campaign said, "Okay, here are your talking points. When in doubt just refer back to them. Do not stray from these points! At all!" So, she didn't make any huge errors, but it felt like all she brought to the table was rhetoric and campaign slogans.

How do you feel about this election?

Simply put:

Obama/Biden=Change -----> No way
McCain/Palin=Maverick ------> No f'n way

Bottom line: Nothing will happen regardless of who is elected, and we'll be just as well/worse off.

/cynicism

[pure_mercury]

I apologize if the snarky comment wasn't well-recieved. I would never moderate based on my personal opinion of the topic or thread starter. However, last night there were three Palin threads going at once, and I do think that was too many. . . hence the comment. Of course, I didn't do anything about it.

I understand. I guess I am a little sensitive about mod-related things. When I post on some hockey boards, it's a big issue with all the fanatical partisans there. Mods have to be extra careful.


I tuned in because I was curious. I wasn't really sure how she would do beforehand because sometimes that down-home washington outsider talk that she does really works. (It doesn't work on me, but I understand how it works on other people.) Admittedly, I didn't have a high opinion of her. I was watching more for the entertainment value, but I consider myself a fairly objective critic since I'm not emotionally invested in any of the candidates.

I agree. People really like both the "change" rhetoric and the "maverick/outsider" rhetoric. Policy (you know, the important stuff) is always given short shrift.


It just sounded as if the McCain campaign said, "Okay, here are your talking points. When in doubt just refer back to them. Do not stray from these points! At all!" So, she didn't make any huge errors, but it felt like all she brought to the table was rhetoric and campaign slogans.

I think they really wanted her to keep it simple. She is not a terrific orator, so she usually comes off best with sound bites and breaking down complex issues into short, easily understood policy points. I think that appeals to a lot of the voting public.


Simply put:

Obama/Biden=Change -----> No way
McCain/Palin=Maverick ------> No f'n way

Bottom line: Nothing will happen regardless of who is elected, and we'll be just as well/worse off.

/cynicism

Music to my ears. ;)

[phoenix13]

In the words of my good friend, "maverick energy mom from Alaska. MAVERICK!"

I thought she was pretty poised, but that sexxxy Joe Biden kicked her fucking ass.

Biden?
http://s.wsj.net/media/biden_smile_H_20080827003450.jpg

Yeah, I'd do *cough* vote for that... (:alttongue:)

[nottaprettygal]

I think they really wanted her to keep it simple. She is not a terrific orator, so she usually comes off best with sound bites and breaking down complex issues into short, easily understood policy points. I think that appeals to a lot of the voting public.

Agreed. I think Biden got a bit too complex at times, and he had me scratching my head a bit.

I was watching on CNN and they had a graph of uncommitted men and women voters from Ohio. I noticed that when Palin started speaking, her approval ratings started to go down. I was wondering if this is because she started most rebuttals with, "I wanna go back to talking about x" instead of actually answering the addressed question.

However, as she began talking those lines went way up. It's like her goal was to speak in simple language and stray away from the question at hand until people actually forgot what it was. I think that worked.

Or maybe I just spent way too much time staring at that graph.

[pure_mercury]

Wow, people are talking about Joe Biden being attractive now? I hope I can attribute that to political bias. If he is actually considered "sexy," then something is horribly wrong in America.

[phoenix13]

Wow, people are talking about Joe Biden being attractive now? I hope I can attribute that to political bias. If he is actually considered "sexy," then something is horribly wrong in America.

K, I added the altongue emoticon to express the joshing nature of the post.

Seriously though... he won the debate. She did well by not imploding.

[pure_mercury]

K, I added the altongue emoticon to express the joshing nature of the post.

Seriously though... he won the debate. She did well by not imploding.


He did well, but he really went far afield sometimes. He needs to keep himself on a shorter leash verbally, because he was losing the plot at times. In reading today, the online MSM seems to think that Palin did pretty well, actually. I was not overwhelmed.

[Jen]

Well I think he's super sexy for an older man and as a young man but I'm biased and love tall, thin, clean cut men with blue eyes. :wub:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0827/csmimg/ABIDEN_P3.jpg<------:wub:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Joe_Biden,_official_photo_portrait_2.jpg/397px-Joe_Biden,_official_photo_portrait_2.jpg Yes,yes!

NPG I see nothing wrong with giving your opinion especially since it echoes mine. :newwink:

[nottaprettygal]

I must say that when Biden was talking about his wife and daughter being killed in that car accident, he seemed very endearing. Surely that's good enough for some sort of pity sex, riooooght?

[Jen]

I must say that when Biden was talking about his wife and daughter being killed in that car accident, he seemed very endearing. Surely that's good enough for some sort of pity sex, riooooght?Absolutely. It brought tears to my feeler eyes.

[The_Liquid_Laser]

You don't do that when you have your mod hat on, and your opinion is clearly biased anyway. I saw a portion of that debate, and neither candidate bowled me over. Palin kept it simple and on message, but she is out of her depth on a lot of those issues. Biden rolled with his purple prose, but his rhetoric was strangely empty. Honestly, if you thought either candidate trounced the other, you're just showing your political stripes.

I basically agree with this take on the debate. Overall I think there were both fairly average. Biden showed he was more knowledgable on certain subjects, but that was to be expected. Both made a few good points, and both were mostly boring besides that. The only gaffe I thought Palin made was when she said, "I don't care what questions you ask or the moderator asks." (Heh, I found that amusing. :)) Overall though her goal was to show she could hold her own debating an old polical vet, and she did that for the most part.

[Jeffster]

I've just noticed that EVERYONE who has been extremely positive or negative about Palin's performance in the debate seems to have made up his or her mind about her beforehand, anyway. It reads like a lot of rah-rah, homerish propaganda.

Not that it's really directly relevant, but I'd like to point out that even though I will likely vote for McCain, I haven't been rah-rah about his campaign or his or Palin's debate performances. But then I'm pretty cynical about the whole thing anyway, and no matter who wins it won't change my view that most people are stupid.

[iwakar]

The Alaskan princess missed her true calling as a "verbal dodgeballer."

Oh. Hrm... On second thought, scratch that--
welcome to the American political landscape Mrs. Palin :cheese:;

http://pro.corbis.com/images/CB025980.jpg?size=572&uid={23D2F0DD-54F7-46FD-8036-8DAAB0ED144B}
the latest pretty pin in a dumb, Republican pile.

[Oberon]

I think it's absurdly funny the way Dems and Pubs like to bust on each other's candidates for being stupid, when the fact is that all the insiders went to the same handful of Ivy-League universities and there really isn't a dumb one in the lot. Indoctrinated? Sure. Opinionated? Absolutely. Elitist? You betcha. Pigheaded? Certainly. But you don't navigate the minefield that is modern politics in the US and survive very long without being smart.

I think a critique of Washington's ethics ought to get way more traction than a critique of mental prowess.

[Lateralus]

Stop making sense. The partisans don't like it.

[Jack Flak]

Stop making sense. The partisans don't like it.
I got a girlfriend that's better than that
Now everyone's getting involved
As we get older and stop making sense
You won't find her waiting long
Stop making sense, stop making sense...stop making sense, making sense
I got a girlfriend that's better than that
And nothing is better that this
(Oh is it? )

--Talking Heads

[phoenix13]

I think it's absurdly funny the way Dems and Pubs like to bust on each other's candidates for being stupid, when the fact is that all the insiders went to the same handful of Ivy-League universities and there really isn't a dumb one in the lot. Indoctrinated? Sure. Opinionated? Absolutely. Elitist? You betcha. Pigheaded? Certainly. But you don't navigate the minefield that is modern politics in the US and survive very long without being smart.

I think a critique of Washington's ethics ought to get way more traction than a critique of mental prowess.

Yeah, and Bush went to Yale. It doesn't mean jack squat... but I do agree that all the candidates this time around are of acceptable intelligence.

[Firelie]

She did alright, I guess. I was hoping for her to say something nonsensical, but she pretty much stuck to her script and called it a day.

I was somewhat annoyed with how she kept going back to Alaskan oil, though. Yeah, it would be nice to not be dependent on the rest of the world for our energy needs, but the oil in Alaska is NOT going to solve our energy problems in the long run, so shut up about it already!

[Eileen]

I think that she did fine. I just happen to disagree with her on most issues. I liked seeing her squirm under the gay marriage question.

[Oberon]

Yeah, and Bush went to Yale.

See? It's a leftist truism that Bush is unintelligent. For my part, I would venture that he's every bit as bright as, say, John Kerry.

The fact that he's on the wrong side of about twenty different policy issues is beside the point. That makes him wrong, not stupid.

[Jack Flak]

See? It's a leftist truism that Bush is unintelligent. For my part, I would venture that he's every bit as bright as, say, John Kerry.

The fact that he's on the wrong side of about twenty different policy issues is beside the point. That makes him wrong, not stupid.
He is smart. He's not good at being fake, which is why he screws up all the time. Less so these days because he just doesn't care anymore.

[phoenix13]

See? It's a leftist truism that Bush is unintelligent. For my part, I would venture that he's every bit as bright as, say, John Kerry.

The fact that he's on the wrong side of about twenty different policy issues is beside the point. That makes him wrong, not stupid.

I don't know his IQ, and can't determine for sure what his intelligence level is. What I do know is that he isn't thoughtful or reflective. Little things like, not checking on FEMA during the N'Orleans crisis, and not checking in on Iraq under the premise "I do what Gen. Casey tells me to do," strike me as more than pure incompetence. There's a lack of thoughtfulness there. Ya knowadahmsayin'?

...and the assumption behind attending an Ivy League school is that someone is exceptionally intelligent. I don't believe that is the case with Bush. He may not be dumb... but he is certainly not an exceptional mind.

[Lucifer]

If you say 2+2=3 that makes you wrong, and it makes you stupid. I also agree with Phoenix's coments on this matter.

[Eileen]

See? It's a leftist truism that Bush is unintelligent. For my part, I would venture that he's every bit as bright as, say, John Kerry.

The fact that he's on the wrong side of about twenty different policy issues is beside the point. That makes him wrong, not stupid.

That Bush is often kind of articulate bolsters the truism--however, when Bush is talking about his area of expertise (business), he does sound like he's intelligent and knows what's going on. His "state of the economy" address a couple weeks ago was surprising in its lucidity [to those of us who tend to wave him off as a moron].

[pure_mercury]

Not that it's really directly relevant, but I'd like to point out that even though I will likely vote for McCain, I haven't been rah-rah about his campaign or his or Palin's debate performances. But then I'm pretty cynical about the whole thing anyway, and no matter who wins it won't change my view that most people are stupid.


I understand. I meant that people who thought that Palin either was awesome or awful have been very partisan and had their minds made up already. There are certainly big fans of both McCain and Obama who have taken a more nuanced view of the debate.

[Magic Poriferan]

It kind of amazes me that we still live in a society where you can say "so-and-so went to Yale" and everyone else says "Oh! I didn't know he was so smart". Oy... It's just a trumped-up university.

Has anyone here even asked what his record there was like? Maybe we could also talk about various foibles in the academic system that discredit often lauded institutions like Yale. And finally, we could point out that when you are rich and a part of a political dynasty, good marks seem to come easier than normal in any endeavor...

Those are just a few ideas.

[pure_mercury]

It kind of amazes me that we still live in a society where you can say "so-and-so went to Yale" and everyone else says "Oh! I didn't know he was so smart". Oy... It's just a trumped-up university.

Has anyone here even asked what his record there was like? Maybe we could also take about various foibles in the academic system that discredit often lauded institutions like Yale. And finally, we could point out that when you are rich and a part of a political dynasty, good marks seem to come easier than normal in any endeavor...

Those are just a few ideas.

I went to an Ivy League university for two years, and I was surprised at how many people I found to be below my intelligence level. They tended to be more up on world affairs and more competitive than people at other schools, but it wasn't as if everyone walking around were a genius. Most had a preternatural ability to party excessively and still manage to get to class and get at least decent grades.

[Bella]

[snerk]

Feminists are a hoot. Their point of view adds up to "Women don't count as women unless they're liberal women."

That's why they gave Clinton a pass on Paula Jones.

Here women have a crack at electing this country's very first female executive EVER... and if the Republicans win, there is an excellent chance that the nation will one day have a President Palin... and they're bitching like she's the antichrist.

Machs nicht to me. I won't be voting for either side of our ruling party.

lol. True

[Oberon]

If you say 2+2=3 that makes you wrong, and it makes you stupid. I also agree with Phoenix's coments on this matter.

Given your premise, I agree; however, I don't know of any of our Washington elite on either side of the aisle who have claimed that two and two make three.

[Bella]

I got a girlfriend that's better than that
Now everyone's getting involved
As we get older and stop making sense
You won't find her waiting long
Stop making sense, stop making sense...stop making sense, making sense
I got a girlfriend that's better than that
And nothing is better that this
(Oh is it? )

--Talking Heads

A quote a day keeps the docter away, eh Mr Jack Flak ;)

[Jack Flak]

I went to an Ivy League university for two years, and I was surprised at how many people I found to be below my intelligence level. They tended to be more up on world affairs and more competitive than people at other schools, but it wasn't as if everyone walking around were a genius. Most had a preternatural ability to party excessively and still manage to get to class and get at least decent grades.
Yeah, I think that comes with growing up in a house with 50 rooms, nice quiet house parties with 150 people.

[Eileen]

[snerk]

Feminists are a hoot. Their point of view adds up to "Women don't count as women unless they're liberal women."

That's why they gave Clinton a pass on Paula Jones.

Here women have a crack at electing this country's very first female executive EVER... and if the Republicans win, there is an excellent chance that the nation will one day have a President Palin... and they're bitching like she's the antichrist.

Machs nicht to me. I won't be voting for either side of our ruling party.

It ABSOLUTELY matters to me--as a feminist, concerned with issues of feminism--that the woman we elect has the welfare of women at heart (and in my opinion, the liberal ticket cares more about women than the conservative one). I think it's retardedly counter-productive to be excited about a woman running JUST BECAUSE she's a woman. If she's not going to take care of women, what does it matter?

[Jack Flak]

If she's not going to take care of women, what does it matter?
It's at least symbolic, Ms. Black/White.

[pure_mercury]

It ABSOLUTELY matters to me--as a feminist, concerned with issues of feminism--that the woman we elect has the welfare of women at heart (and in my opinion, the liberal ticket cares more about women than the conservative one). I think it's retardedly counter-productive to be excited about a woman running JUST BECAUSE she's a woman. If she's not going to take care of women, what does it matter?


I think the problem is the implication that women must toe a certain political line, no matter how successful and powerful they are, or they are not feminists. That is, of course, nonsense.

[Edahn]

See? It's a leftist truism that Bush is unintelligent. For my part, I would venture that he's every bit as bright as, say, John Kerry.

The fact that he's on the wrong side of about twenty different policy issues is beside the point. That makes him wrong, not stupid.

He is smart. He's not good at being fake, which is why he screws up all the time. Less so these days because he just doesn't care anymore.

Bush has the intelligence of an average college student, but for a President, especially compared to Clinton, he's low.

Times Article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article634182.ece)

[Eileen]

I think the problem is the implication that women must toe a certain political line, no matter how successful and powerful they are, or they are not feminists. That is, of course, nonsense.

We know that she's anti-abortion, and there is a question as to whether she made any attempt to stop her police chief from forcing women to pay for their own rape kits. If the latter is true, which hasn't been determined (in fairness), she is very clearly not taking care of women in a very important sense. She might be a feminist in a lot of ways--equal opportunities, equal pay for equal work. Those are important. But do not fuck with reproductive rights.

[Jack Flak]

But do not fuck with reproductive rights.
I suppose that's as important to you as the 2nd ammendment to me. I'm not quite a single issue voter, but that would be it if I were, because of what it represents.

[Eileen]

I suppose that's as important to you as the 2nd ammendment to me. I'm not quite a single issue voter, but that would be it if I were, because of what it represents.

I'm not a single-issue voter either, but that's a pretty important "feminist" issue to me, so if we're judging someone on the basis of feminism, while I shouldn't completely discount someone as anti-feminist without it, I will hold that issue up as paramount.

I am also against tax breaks for the wealthy and raping the environment. So there are at least three issues.

[Jack Flak]

I'm not a single-issue voter either, but that's a pretty important "feminist" issue to me, so if we're judging someone on the basis of feminism, while I shouldn't completely discount someone as anti-feminist without it, I will hold that issue up as paramount.

I am also against tax breaks for the wealthy and raping the environment. So there are at least three issues.
Yes, and when Obama supports every gun control measure proposed, like the unconstitutional handgun bans in various locations, I get a slight irked as well. Basically, with this and other issues, I really hate the philosophy:

"We are the democratic legislators. We would like to make it illegal for you to do x, and we'll do it for you, only much worse."

It is not exclusively a Democrat mindset, but moreso indeed.

[Eileen]

Yes, and when Obama supports every gun control measure proposed, like the unconstitutional handgun bans in various locations, I get a slight irked as well. Basically, with this and other issues, I really hate the philosophy:

"We are the democratic legislators. We would like to make it illegal for you to do x, and we'll do it for you, only much worse."

Yeah, I get it. I was really just responding to Oberon's indictment of [my] feminism as silly.

[lowtech redneck]

Yeah, I get it. I was really just responding to Oberon's indictment of [my] feminism as silly.

It IS silly. What is even sillier is that you can't even see how silly it is, thus proving Oberon's point. Out of curiosity, have you ever said (after an election) something like, "I can't believe he/she won...no one I know voted for him/her!"

[Lateralus]

We know that she's anti-abortion, and there is a question as to whether she made any attempt to stop her police chief from forcing women to pay for their own rape kits.
I'm not a Palin fan, but this 'rape kit controversy' is a pile of BS. The practice was in place before she became mayor. I think it's very likely that she never knew about it.

[Eileen]

It IS silly. What is even sillier is that you can't even see how silly it is, thus proving Oberon's point. Out of curiosity, have you ever said (after an election) something like, "I can't believe he/she won...no one I know voted for him/her!"

Until recently, I was a liberal living in Eastern NC. No. Now I live in a liberal oasis.


In any case, whatever your opinion is, I don't think that my objection to Sarah Palin as the "feminist choice" is silly given the fact that she is anti-abortion. In addition, no matter what her personal views are (she says she's for equal pay/equal work, which just makes good sense), if her job is to uphold McCain's policies, she will not be upholding even women's basic work rights because he doesn't.

[Jeffster]

Until recently, I was a liberal living in Eastern NC. No. Now I live in a liberal oasis.


In any case, whatever your opinion is, I don't think that my objection to Sarah Palin as the "feminist choice" is silly given the fact that she is anti-abortion. In addition, no matter what her personal views are (she says she's for equal pay/equal work, which just makes good sense), if her job is to uphold McCain's policies, she will not be upholding even women's basic work rights because he doesn't.

Why do you want abortion?

[lowtech redneck]

In any case, whatever your opinion is, I don't think that my objection to Sarah Palin as the "feminist choice" is silly given the fact that she is anti-abortion.

...in other words, you think a woman has to be a liberal woman in order to qualify as a feminist. Your choice of words (how "dare" she?) is very revealing in that regard, and implies a certain amount of contempt for someone who disagrees with you on this issue.

[kuranes]

Admittedly, I didn't have a high opinion of her. I was watching more for the entertainment value, but I consider myself a fairly objective critic since I'm not emotionally invested in any of the candidates.

It just sounded as if the McCain campaign said, "Okay, here are your talking points. When in doubt just refer back to them. Do not stray from these points! At all!" So, she didn't make any huge errors, but it felt like all she brought to the table was rhetoric and campaign slogans.

Exactly.

Based on the Katie Couric interview, I think this wasn't just a matter of strategy options either. She required this approach in order not to embarass herself again. I don't think that speaks well for her intelligence.

Agreed. I think Biden got a bit too complex at times, and he had me scratching my head a bit.
They knew it would be time consuming for him to have to explain the "procedural vote" thing, but Biden was forced to do so anyway, in order to counter such claims, and the related lie that Obama would go after people making 42K, taxwise..

I was watching on CNN and they had a graph of uncommitted men and women voters from Ohio. I noticed that when Palin started speaking, her approval ratings started to go down. I was wondering if this is because she started most rebuttals with, "I wanna go back to talking about x" instead of actually answering the addressed question.

However, as she began talking those lines went way up. It's like her goal was to speak in simple language and stray away from the question at hand until people actually forgot what it was. I think that worked.


I could understand if ( based on this principle ) a strategy was based on this, and a candidate purposely dumbed themself down. In Palin's case, I don't think this was the only consideration.

Yeah, I get it. I was really just responding to Oberon's indictment of [my] feminism as silly.
I understood what you were saying. I'd be curious to find out more about "conservative feminism", too, as this is a movement I've heard little about, up until now.

[millerm277]

I watched the debate, I think Palin avoided as much as she could, and what she did answer sounded like she was reading off a card of "republican points" rather than actually her thinking. However, I dislike both Palin and McCain, so my opinion isn't especially valid...

[Eileen]

...in other words, you think a woman has to be a liberal woman in order to qualify as a feminist. Your choice of words (how "dare" she?) is very revealing in that regard, and implies a certain amount of contempt for someone who disagrees with you on this issue.

I was melodramatic, but I do wonder very seriously and passionately what Sarah Palin would do for women. It is NOT ENOUGH for me that she is a woman who is close to the presidency. I want to know what she's going to do to help women. How is she going to make this a more just, fair, and equitable world for women, beyond existing in a position of power?

Why do you want abortion?

I don't want there not to be abortion, which I think is a little different. It is important that abortion be safe and legal... and certainly not kept from women who have been victims of rape or incest. I am actually pro life/pro choice, but I have no right to impose my pro-life beliefs on another woman's womb.

[Jeffster]

I
I don't want there not to be abortion, which I think is a little different. It is important that abortion be safe and legal... and certainly not kept from women who have been victims of rape or incest. I am actually pro life/pro choice, but I have no right to impose my pro-life beliefs on another woman's womb.

Can you elaborate on what your pro-life beliefs are?

[ZiL]

I understood what you were saying. I'd be curious to find out more about "conservative feminism", too, as this is a movement I've heard little about, up until now.

So would I. Somebody do some research, lol. I don't know a lot about the history of feminism, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think part of the difficulty in conceptualizing "conservative feminism" is that the original feminist movements were closely tied to other liberal movements, weren't they? And getting abortion rights - was that a major goal of the earlier feminist movements? If so, then at this point in time, completely divorcing femimism from liberalism and abortion rights might be a fuzzy process for many women, since these three concepts are so historically tied. It can be done, I don't doubt it. I knew a girl in high school who could kill anyone in a debate and she would not shy away from any intellectual challenge, but she was also conservative and pro-life. Some can reconcile it, but with today's conditions having come from such relatively recent radical movements, I can see why it would be difficult to do so for others. I've wondered on and off lately about what long-term effects an overturn of Roe v. Wade might have. I've always just assumed that it was a figurehead symbol for the success of the feminist movement. Would it be possible to replace this with some other major symbol or not?

And once again, excuse my ignorance if it is showing. I'm not trying to take part in some hardcore debate here - this is just a meandering of curiousity.

[Eileen]

Can you elaborate on what your pro-life beliefs are?

I could. And I will, but I don't really think it belongs in this thread.

I believe that life begins at conception (spiritually... I guess... I'm actually agnostic about that these days) and that abortion is always a moral problem, but that bringing a child into a world of poverty, abuse, or unwantedness is also a moral problem--and that the pregnant woman is the only one who can make the right decision for herself. Sometimes people have to choose between shitty options, and when the situation in question is happening in one's body, I don't believe that anyone else should have jurisdiction over that.

[Jen]

Yes! Let's give it up for Tina, um I mean Sarah Palin! *applause* w00t!

Biden/Palin Debate (http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/vp-debate-open-palin-biden/727421/)

[Eileen]

Wow, Queen Latifah was fabulous in that!

[kuranes]

Wow, Queen Latifah was fabulous in that!
:) And, of course, the liberal media/SNL bloc don't ever make fun of the Demmies.....

[The_Liquid_Laser]

:) And, of course, the liberal media/SNL bloc don't ever make fun of the Demmies.....

If you are being serious then you must not watch the show.

[kuranes]

If you are being serious then you must not watch the show.
I was joking. You must not see many of my posts. :)