Different Kinds of Creativity

[kuranes]

We've been having an interesting discussion about gender dynamics and whether "intelligence" is resented by some people there. It was brought up in that thread that there is more than one kind of intelligence. ( Just as I brought up elsewhere that pornography and erotica don't necessarily have to be as narrowly defined as they typically are. )

What about creativity ? Is there more than one kind of creativity ? Do non-creatives resent creatives ? Do Creative Type #1's resent Creative Type #2's ?

One person mentioned already that creatives can simultaneously be egotistic and humble, childlike and mature, "big picture" and detail oriented. People have speculated that a "crossing of wires" in the brain may produce both synesthesia and creativity.

Here is another way to look at this.

Wired 14.07: What Kind of Genius Are You? (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.07/genius.html)

[bluemonday]

We've been having an interesting discussion about gender dynamics and whether "intelligence" is resented by some people there. It was brought up in that thread that there is more than one kind of intelligence. ( Just as I brought up elsewhere that pornography and erotica don't necessarily have to be as narrowly defined as they typically are. )

What about creativity ? Is there more than one kind of creativity ? Do non-creatives resent creatives ? Do Creative Type #1's resent Creative Type #2's ?

One person mentioned already that creatives can simultaneously be egotistic and humble, childlike and mature, "big picture" and detail oriented. People have speculated that a "crossing of wires" in the brain may produce both synesthesia and creativity.

Here is another way to look at this.

Wired 14.07: What Kind of Genius Are You? (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.07/genius.html)

In my experience, non-creatives don't resent creatives as much as think they are irrelevant, (until history proves otherwise), eccentric, head-in-the-clouds, wastes-of-space.

This also strikes me as a J/P dynamic, which ties in with the left-brain/right-brain dichotomy. But of course, this is overly simplistic.

I like to think I'm a Venetian, if I'm a Martian, I'm f*cked.

[sanveane]

I've read this article before. I've had many discussions with a friend of mine about this topic. He is a musician, incredibly gifted from a young age. He thinks there is only one type of creativity, the type described as 'conceptualist' in the article. Burns bright then fades away. He thinks his best work is behind him. I tend to believe him in respect of his own output.

I didn't agree that there is only this one type of creativity and found that article. I've always been very creative, but when I was younger I couldn't express it myself well. It was always expressed through my taste in music etc. (I'm not saying I'm a genius level creative as described in the article). I work in the creative field now and I feel like I have found my calling. I know I will just keep building throughout my life.

I'm sure that going by the archetypes of this theory the 'conceptualist' and the 'experimentalist' do envy each other at different stages... It annoys me when certain creative types presume that if you haven't produced your masterwork by 25 that it will never happen. Thelma Schoonmaker, who edits Martin Scorsese's films didn't cut Raging Bull until she was 40... (heh I like to trot that one out a lot!) My brother was a very talented fine artist, but he was more of a burn bright and fade away type. It was a little hard growing up next to that. I was a bit jealous (though always proud of him) and mystified as to how he was so naturally gifted.

Er, I don't resent non-creative types. I think everyone has some area in their life where they are creative. I don't find much resentment or dismissiveness from so called non-creatives. In my experience certain societies are more conducive to having fledgling creative talent develop. Perhaps there ends up being a little more general respect (or absence of disregard) for those pursuing something creative in those societies...?

[kuranes]

In my experience, non-creatives don't resent creatives as much as think they are irrelevant, (until history proves otherwise), eccentric, head-in-the-clouds, wastes-of-space.

This also strikes me as a J/P dynamic, which ties in with the left-brain/right-brain dichotomy. But of course, this is overly simplistic.

I know that a number of people do wonder at how something as "useless" as Art persisted over the years. A fascinating neuroscientist opines on this in a link I have posted in the art thread.
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/339855-post25.html

Are you Conceptualist or Experimentalist ? ( See linked article in OP Post #1 for meaning of these phrases. )

In my experience certain societies are more conducive to having fledgling creative talent develop. Perhaps there ends up being a little more general respect (or absence of disregard) for those pursuing something creative in those societies...?
Yes, this is an interesting question, too. Which countries seem to value artists enough to be supportive of the "seedlings" ( fledgling artists that must be cultivated to an extent so as to always have some new voices in development ) ??

In America, I often hear that it is Europe that values its artists. I just read a post the other day from a Swede ( I forget who it was ) who said that he felt his country tended on the whole to give artists the cold shoulder. There are no countries which accept all "artists" with outstretched arms and no caveats, of course; but there are some ( aren't there ? ) that seem to put a higher priority on Art. How is it in Europe ? Do you Europeans hear ( conversely ) that it is, in fact, American audiences that one should try to get access to ?

One hears vaguely about France supporting jazz musicians that the USA had marginalized. That artists in Russia risked their very lives to get work out during the colder days there. What other countries fit this model ? Is it still true about France ?

[Haphazard]

How does one define creativity and art?

Or is it like pornography, as in, we'll know it when we see it?

[entropie]

How does one define creativity and art?

Or is it like pornography, as in, we'll know it when we see it?

I think most of the times art is something that expresses and emotion felt by any person on the world through ones eyes uniquely.

Like this, for example:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb74/AngDev777/LoveDarkAngels.jpg

Through the dark setup I imagine someone feeling that he does not belong. The chains express them both to be slaves of something.. like their passions, for example

[kuranes]

Or is it like pornography, as in, we'll know it when we see it?
That's the way I see it. You put a "frame" around something and call it art, as the artist. Other people can then say it is "bad" art or "good art" etc. in their opinion, but it is still "art" for most of us if someone ( or we ourselves ) define it as such.

I'm not looking to get hung up on the definition of art in this thread, though.

Some people seem more fertile when it comes to creative ideas in general, and this needn't be restricted only to the field of Fine Art.

Directing your attention back to the OP, do you think there are different kinds of creative people ?

[edcoaching]

One of my favorite workshop exercises is dividing the group into quadrants and giving everyone the same creativity assignment--ES, EN, IS, IN, the 4 learning styles I use with teachers and students.

The groups are blown away by the incredibly different, yet all creative results. There's more than one form of creativity but because of what is honored, lots of people don't even know they're creative...

[entropie]

One of my favorite workshop exercises is dividing the group into quadrants and giving everyone the same creativity assignment--ES, EN, IS, IN, the 4 learning styles I use with teachers and students.

The groups are blown away by the incredibly different, yet all creative results. There's more than one form of creativity but because of what is honored, lots of people don't even know they're creative...

One of your favourite workshop excersises .. ?! haha , you ARE giving me the creeps :D

[Haphazard]

Directing your attention back to the OP, do you think there are different kinds of creative people ?

Yes, but I've noticed many different flavors. The least annoying ones are the ones who don't get hung up on themselves. :)

[kuranes]

One of my favorite workshop exercises is dividing the group into quadrants and giving everyone the same creativity assignment--ES, EN, IS, IN, the 4 learning styles I use with teachers and students.

The groups are blown away by the incredibly different, yet all creative results. There's more than one form of creativity but because of what is honored, lots of people don't even know they're creative...
Expand on this, if you will. I think I know what you mean, in general, but it would be useful for the membership to see/read specific examples.

I know that in the art world many newcomers to it say that they cannot create art, when what they mean is that they cannot draw something that aspires to a photographic ideal of fidelity to detail, or that they would simply not want to learn such skills. Yet they can maybe do something which is highly expressive anyway, in part by its very simplicity. One might explain to such a person that they don't have to strive for photographic realism, as we have cameras for that.

A friend of mine is a teacher and she has told me about teaching people how to learn as well as teaching them subjects that they would apply such learning skills towards. Some teachers only concentrate on the latter.

[edcoaching]

One of your favourite workshop excersises .. ?! haha , you ARE giving me the creeps :D

Hey, they really like doing it :cry:

[sanveane]

Yes, this is an interesting question, too. Which countries seem to value artists enough to be supportive of the "seedlings" ( fledgling artists that must be cultivated to an extent so as to always have some new voices in development ) ??

In America, I often hear that it is Europe that values its artists. I just read a post the other day from a Swede ( I forget who it was ) who said that he felt his country tended on the whole to give artists the cold shoulder. There are no countries which accept all "artists" with outstretched arms and no caveats, of course; but there are some ( aren't there ? ) that seem to put a higher priority on Art. How is it in Europe ? Do you Europeans hear ( conversely ) that it is, in fact, American audiences that one should try to get access to ?

One hears vaguely about France supporting jazz musicians that the USA had marginalized. That artists in Russia risked their very lives to get work out during the colder days there. What other countries fit this model ? Is it still true about France ?

I'm not sure about actual programs elsewhere....

I grew up somewhere with universal health care... I didn't understand before living in the US how much more risky it is to pursue certain creative avenues as a way to make a living here, purely because of the health care system. A lot of creative work is on a freelance basis. Until you are good enough at what you're doing (which takes time) it's going to be hard to pay for your own health insurance. I know that having good health insurance is the only reason some of my friends are stuck in jobs they hate instead of trying for what they really want. And so they will never develop their talent.

It could be said though that it means the artists/creative types who do make it here are really worthy. (Of course there are those who are career creatives or the ones who might be useless but have solid financial support.) I don't condemn it by any means, but I do find it very interesting...

[edcoaching]

I'm not sure about actual programs elsewhere....

I grew up somewhere with universal health care... I didn't understand before living in the US, how much more risky it is to pursue certain creative avenues as a way to make a living purely because of the health care system here. A lot of creative work is on a freelance basis. Until you are good enough at what you're doing (which takes time) it's going to be hard to pay for your own health insurance. I know that having good health insurance is the only reason some of my friends are stuck in jobs they hate instead of trying for what they really want. And so they will never develop their talent.

It could be said though that it means the artists/creative types who do make it here are really worthy. (Of course there are those who are career creatives or the ones who might be useless but have solid financial support.) I don't condemn it by any means, but I do find it very interesting...

Really true about the insurance, etc. So many parents are desperate to do the "right thing" and steer their kids into safe jobs...

[sanveane]

^Yeah, I really do understand it now. I think it must be really difficult to know what to do as a parent, the creative way is not assured, it's a big risk here until you get to a certain level...

[Victor]

What about creativity ? Is there more than one kind of creativity ? Do non-creatives resent creatives ?


Once we become visible, we become something else.

Everyone and their dog now is creative or wants to be creative.

So creativity is over.

But worse, creativity is seen as good, so even the meretricious are creative - and particularly the meretricious.

Ya wanna be good - be creative.

But nature abhors a vacuum, so what rushes in to fill the space left by creative?

It must be something not taken seriously. It must be something that is only half seen and misinterpreted.

It must be something like God - it must be someone who is omnipresent.

But it must be someone disparaged - someone we turn our noses up at. But someone who we can't keep our eyes off.

It can be no one else than Paris Hilton.

Everyone knows Paris is not creative - and everyone knows Paris.

And the meretricious avoid Paris like the plague.

If you look at Paris full on, she is invisible. But if you look at her out of the corner of your eye, she is present.

She is a present to all of us, and her present is simply presence.

Yes, dear Reader, presence has replaced creativity while you were asleep.

Yes, it is unfair. You try so hard to be good - and what happens - the world changes around you while you were asleep - the world changes behind your back - you've been short-changed, baby - too late: it's now too late!

What was once good is now not good; and what is bad is - what horror - now good!

Oh what is a good girl and boy to do?

[edcoaching]

Expand on this, if you will. I think I know what you mean, in general, but it would be useful for the membership to see/read specific examples.

I know that in the art world many newcomers to it say that they cannot create art, when what they mean is that they cannot draw something that aspires to a photographic ideal of fidelity to detail, or that they would simply not want to learn such skills. Yet they can maybe do something which is highly expressive anyway, in part by its very simplicity. One might explain to such a person that they don't have to strive for photographic realism, as we have cameras for that.

A friend of mine is a teacher and she has told me about teaching people how to learn as well as teaching them subjects that they would apply such learning skills towards. Some teachers only concentrate on the latter.

Okay...remember this is part of a much longer workshop experience aimed at teambuilding...

Each group gets a bag filled with the kinds of things you'd find in a junk drawer, every bag has the same objects. Golf balls, Mardi Gras beads, a votive candle, lipstick, a handwritten note, etc. Purposely as unrelated as can be. They're told, "This is evidence from a crime scene. Your job is to tell the group who done it, what they did, and their motive." I say they can do a story board, skit, or just summarize it, whatever they want.

IS--They come up with a story like that almost really could have happened like jealousy at a country club and act it out like it's Dragnet. Understated funny

ES--Theirs is somewhat realistic but there's a slapstick element that brings down the house. Sound effects, etc.

EN--Their plots have talking mice escaping in hot air balloons powered by a votive candle, and so many ideas that there are usually moments when someone has no idea how to follow what their team mate just did...

IN--One person speaks for the group, usually sitting down, spinning a tale that somehow connects every item in a Hitchhiker's Guide style of prose.

"Beginners" to type can articulate the differences and how comfortable/creative they were able to be when working with others who took similar approaches...

[edcoaching]

^Yeah, I really do understand it now. I think it must be really difficult to know what to do as a parent, the creative way is not assured, it's a big risk here until you get to a certain level...

As someone with a son who is double-majoring in English and Philosophy, all I can say is he's lucky his mom was an English major and doing just fine, thank you...

[wolfy]

This article by Marci Segal on Adaptive Creativity and Innovative Creativity (http://www.16types.com/Request.jsp?lView=ViewArticle&Article=OID%3A59627) is very interesting. I like how she ties Kirtons theory of two types in with MBTI.
This article by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is not about two types of creativity but is an interesting article on Ten paradoxical traits of the creative personality. (http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-19960701-000033&print=1)

[edcoaching]

This article by Marci Segal on Adaptive Creativity and Innovative Creativity (http://www.16types.com/Request.jsp?lView=ViewArticle&Article=OID%3A59627) is very interesting. I like how she ties Kirtons theory of two types in with MBTI.
This article by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is not about two types of creativity but is an interesting article on Ten paradoxical traits of the creative personality. (http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-19960701-000033&print=1)

Marci keynoted at one of the type conferences and got us into trios where we had to "sell products" to each other. No warning--she'd announce the topic and you had to start your sales pitch right away. Mine was selling orthodontia work for centipedes. Another had something to do with elephants. The whole room had a blast. Her preferences are ISTP. If you EVER have a chance to hear her, jump on it. Her site is
CreativityLand :: content :: main (http://www.creativityland.net)

[Victor]

Marci keynoted at one of the type conferences and got us into trios where we had to "sell products" to each other. No warning--she'd announce the topic and you had to start your sales pitch right away. Mine was selling orthodontia work for centipedes. Another had something to do with elephants. The whole room had a blast. Her preferences are ISTP. If you EVER have a chance to hear her, jump on it. Her site is
CreativityLand :: content :: main (http://www.creativityland.net)

Creativity is mere nostalgia.

[edcoaching]

Creativity is mere nostalgia.

Creativity is consciously doing something unexpected.

Creativity is doing something different, which can be good or bad.

Creativity is figuring out something enjoyable/satisfying/effective/doable when life sucks.

Creativity is digging yourself out of a hole.

Creativity is finding your own fun.

[wolfy]

Creativity is mere nostalgia.
Your posts are abstract art.

[Jack Flak]

OH YES!

[wolfy]

Creativity is . . .

Common definition from Webster's - Creativity is marked by the ability or power to create�to bring into existence, to invest with a new form, to produce through imaginative skill, to make or bring into existence something new.

Carl Rodgers (psychologist an writer) -- The emergence of a novel, relational product, growing out of the uniqueness of the individual.

Henry Miller ( writer) -- The occurrence of a composition which is both new and valuable.

John Haefele (CEO and entrepreneur) -- The ability to make new combinations of social worth.

Newell, Simon, & Shaw (team of logic theorists) -- A special class of problem solving characterized by novelty.

H. H. Fox (scientist) -- Any thinking process in which original patterns are formed and expressed.

Rollo May (writer, philosopher) - Creativity is the process of bringing something new into being...

Roger von Oech - Creative thinking involves imagining familiar things in a new light, digging below the surface to find previously undetected patterns, and finding connections among unrelated phenomena.

Carnevale, Gainer, Meltzer - ... the ability to use different modes of thought to generate new and dynamic ideas and solutions

To be creative is to be human.

[Bella]

I admire creatives. I'm a bit envious too. But I don't resent them.

[ajblaise]

Creativity = Remote Association.

[Bella]

Creativity = Remote Association.

What does that mean. Try to make sense to the "simple folk", as Lucifer put it.

[Haphazard]

I'm having such a hard time pinning this all down.

The adjective 'creative' has turned into something so bland. It's even become an insult. It's a concept that's easy to understand but just doesn't seem to mean anything when applied anymore.

[Oleander]

Yes, when 'creative' can be applied to something as filthy as selling then it has lost all meaning. The whole essence of selling is overcoming somebody else's honest assessment with your own patter for something that exists already, 'creative' only in the sense of a new Nigerian scam. I now realise that 'sell' is the most obscene word in the English language.

[ajblaise]

What does that mean. Try to make sense to the "simple folk", as Lucifer put it.

"Remote Association seems to involve an ability to rapidly pull together disparate elements not normally encountered together to solve problems without needing logical linkages between the elements of solution. People who are good remote associators have a knack for seeing connections that cannot be explained by extrapolation."

[Bella]

'k

[wolfy]

Remote association is only one aspect of creativity. Lateral and divergent thinking.

[Victor]

Your posts are abstract art.

I remember when I broke up with my girlfriend. She said, "It's either me or her!". But my girlfriend was mistaken. It wasn't her or her, it was my inner life or her. And I chose my inner life.

It's the same when I post here. It's either you or my inner life - and I choose my inner life.

Of course I would prefer to have my girlfriend and my inner life. Just as I would prefer to have you and my inner life. But so far I haven't been able to put the two together.

I choose my inner life because it constantly bubbles up - and when listen, I relax - and when I listen, I become enlivened.

So my inner life relaxes and enlivens me.

And to my surprise and yours, it seems to hit the page as abstract art.

And the words, "abstract", and, "art", always seem to me to be contradictory - and together they don't make sense.

Just as my posts don't make sense, it would appear.

[LostInNerSpace]

Did not read the thread. Technical creativity solves problems. Technical creativity is thinker creativity. Artistic creativity is arty farty feeler creativity.

Of couse you can have abstract art. Dali is the obvious artist that comes to mind. An image of a red square would count as abstract art if it hangs on a wall or in a gallery. Concrete art would be of something real, like a tree or some kind of scene.

[sanveane]

These aren't mutually exclusive though, you can be both 'technically' creative and 'artistically' creative.

[edcoaching]

Did not read the thread. Technical creativity solves problems. Technical creativity is thinker creativity. Artistic creativity is arty farty feeler creativity.

Of couse you can have abstract art. Dali is the obvious artist that comes to mind. An image of a red square would count as abstract art if it hangs on a wall or in a gallery. Concrete art would be of something real, like a tree or some kid of scene.

Creatively solving problems that involve people, relationships, and communication can also be a form of Feeling creativity. And since logic is seldom helpful, each case is unique and there is no pattern to follow...a wonderful petri dish for creativity:cool:

[Victor]

What happens when you leave creativity behind?

Well then you don't know what to do.

So we cling like a vine to creativity rather than launching ourselves into space.

Creativity becomes a scaffolding by which we measure ourselves.

And we devote ourselves to elaborating and iterating the scaffolding.

We climb all over the scaffolding - poking here and poking there - all the time surrounded by free, open space.

Until, eventually, we become the scaffolding.

Until we are proud to be scaffolding.

[bluemonday]

Are you Conceptualist or Experimentalist ? ( See linked article in OP Post #1 for meaning of these phrases. )

Me? Yes, I did read the link. Well now lets see....am I a conceptual genius or an experimental genius...these things are so difficult to disentangle...

Seriously, I don't think I am creative at all. I mean, I have a temperament conducive to creativity, and I have some skillz, sometimes I can solve problems in reasonably creative ways, but I don't have ambition and I don't work hard enough, and I'm just not that exceptional. I don't think many people are truly creative in a meaningful way. (Crocheting doilies and decorating greeting cards with glitter is NOT creative!!! It's just bloody annoying.) Most people don't have an original thought in their entire lives, let alone produce work of great originality. I know I haven't, and the more education you absorb, the more you realize that there really is nothing new under the sun. But occasionally, but really occasionally, someone comes along with the right combination of attributes and life experience and does have an original thought, or an original artistic idea, or perhaps there is no artistic output as such, but their life is a work of art. These are the only people worthy of the term.

I mean, technically, pro-creating is creative, but any moron can do that (no offense intended to those morons who can't).

Which countries seem to value artists enough to be supportive of the "seedlings" ( fledgling artists that must be cultivated to an extent so as to always have some new voices in development ) ??

Do true artists need to be "cultivated"? I thought they liked to starve...most of the great minds have had it hard, they haven't had the establishment's support or approval. Art always finds a way.

dHow is it in Europe ? Do you Europeans hear ( conversely ) that it is, in fact, American audiences that one should try to get access to ? One hears vaguely about France supporting jazz musicians that the USA had marginalized. That artists in Russia risked their very lives to get work out during the colder days there. What other countries fit this model ? Is it still true about France ?

In Europe, we are a bit snobbish about USA and it’s deleterious effect on culture globally (this cannot have failed to escape your notice). Doesn't stop us consuming a lot of the trash you guys churn out though! I find the Nordic peoples very creative/individualistic. I don't believe France is the cultural capital it likes to think it is, but I can quite believe they'd be happy to support anything the USA had marginalized.

American audiences are only desirable because of their $$$$$, not because of their discrimination. And China seems to be becoming more important in this regard.

I think it is still pretty cold in Russia ;)

I'm not a connoisseur. But I did live in the midwest for a bit and it felt like a cultural desert. I realized how lucky I am, I have such riches on my doorstep to ignore.

Modern art leaves me cold. I don't know if I'm just a philistine or if the emperor really has no clothes, but I don't like his thong.

Our most successful (highest paid) artist is Damien Hirst - and he doesn't even create his own works, I mean, polka dots and cows/sheep/sharks in formaldehyde, puhhlease! Even if that was an interesting idea the first time around, it's pretty tired now.
In general the arts aren't well-funded in the UK, at least, the artists are always complaining that they're not.

You'll be aware of The Turner Prize where artists compete to see who can come up with the most inane/controversial "concept" to p*ss the public off. Light's turning on and off. People running in corridors. Tea-cups smashing. Pile of pants. (the last was a judgement, not an entry - although nothing would surprise me...)

[Disclaimer: Any national stereotypes implied, real or imagined, are entirely imaginary]

[kuranes]

It can be no one else than Paris Hilton.

Everyone knows Paris is not creative - and everyone knows Paris.
................................
Oh what is a good girl and boy to do?
Is Paris then the "eyeful" of your "the Bordello is everywhere now" ?



Creativity becomes a scaffolding by which we measure ourselves.

And we devote ourselves to elaborating and iterating the scaffolding.

We climb all over the scaffolding - poking here and poking there - all the time surrounded by free, open space.

Until, eventually, we become the scaffolding.
Or is our very own Hilton Tower merely the scaffolding of the Eiffel she attempts to "trump" ?


Until we are proud to be scaffolding.
Like bad boys and girls.

[wolfy]

What happens when you leave creativity behind?

Well then you don't know what to do.

So we cling like a vine to creativity rather than launching ourselves into space.

Creativity becomes a scaffolding by which we measure ourselves.

And we devote ourselves to elaborating and iterating the scaffolding.

We climb all over the scaffolding - poking here and poking there - all the time surrounded by free, open space.

Until, eventually, we become the scaffolding.

Until we are proud to be scaffolding.

Creativity gives us a process.
A wave to ride.

Scaffolding is a domain, a framework.

Mathematics is the science of pattern.
Music is organised sound.

Scaffolding is a tool to express yourself.