ENTJ's, Maybe just misunderstood?

[Orsenfelt]

So I have recently gotten interested in the whole MBTI 'thing'. I constantly score as ENTJ. I've tried answering different ways on the 'could go either way' questions and I still score ENTJ. I don't think I have ever gotten anything else. I don't mind this, I enjoy being strong of head, I enjoy not bowing down to people and I enjoy being able to see the bigger picture as it where...

Now, Coming here and reading various threads about ENTJ.. The general consensus seems to be that we are all a-typical masculine males, Loud mouth, Arrogant/Ignorant people who don't listen to anyone. I don't think this is right, Maybe we are just misunderstood because you know what, I hate those types of people too..

So please, Let me explain what I think I am, Where I am coming from.. I'd like to see if other ENTJ's can agree =)

I do have strong opinions
I will voice those opinions. However I do my best to listen to any reasoned answer, I don't think I am always right. (Well, Ok, I concede.. I am right until someone can give me a decent reason why I am not..)
I don't suffer fools gladly
I will walk away from meaningless conversations (To me meaningless is mundane conversations where no fact is actually exchanged for quite some time, Like chatting about TV Soaps.. why? It's fiction and it's not even very good fiction at that.) However I'd never do it to a friend or someone that has 'proved' themselve to me.
I don't raise my voice
I consider my thoughts before I speak
I will argue a point.. but I think I'm respectful.
I listen carefully to your response, I validate, I Give my response
I can take criticism, things don't always have to be done my way, Just give me a reason why yours is better.
I'm civil, I don't interrupt or laugh etc
That said, I'm not one for trivial social 'nice-ities'
I'm not a control freak, I respect your opinion, I respect that you can live your life the way you want to.. I just expect a bit of understanding when I tell you why I think you are wrong. If you can take onboard my opinion and give me a decent rebuttal.. You gain respect and and you have a place in my house any day. If you can't, You're a close minded moron?

I wouldn't say I am goal-chasing or shallow too much. I enjoy nice things, I enjoy having money in the bank, I aspire to better things, However I could do without it.. I just don't see why I should?
I don't set out to take over the world, I agree that if the opportunity was handed to me.. I'd have a go, Wouldn't everyone?
I don't pretend to be good at everything, However I think I am good at leading, explaining and organizing. I don't see why I should have to know every detail of your business and every detail of someone else's business just to be good at getting you working together?

I care deeply about my friends, and family who have proven themselves worthy (I have a lot of troubled extended family who, Quite honestly.. Aren't really all that worthy of the space they occupy. I don't believe you should love your family unconditionally, They are people too which in turn means they can possibly be complete bastards also..)


Basically, It boils down to this. Everyone is an idiot, a fool, nobody.. Until you prove otherwise. Nothing major, Just prove you know your own mind, That your not in the habit of making things up and I let you in, I consider your ideas and value your input. If on the other hand you have nothing to contribute, You may aswell be mute and invisible as far as I am concerned.

That's not to say you only have 1 chance, You don't, I'm very clear about that I will say "Right, This is your second chance.. Impress me." However, eventually the door does shut and it's your fault you ain't allowed back in. You shouldn't have wasted the chances I gave you.

I guess, Obviously as I am ENTJ I don't really see any problem with any of this. I guess I can come across a bit heavy handed or arrogant.. However it's only to people who don't put any effort in. If your not willing to contribute to something, anything, I don't see why I should waste my time on you?

So yeh.. That covers it all really...
Do other ENTJ's agree?
Do non ENTJ's think otherwise?
Thoughts please =)

P.S. Yes, I spent quite some time organizing this post so it is easy to read. I hate walls of text =(

[substitute]

I understand ENTJ's perfectly. They're awesome :)
Probably the type with whom I've had the fewest negative experiences (biggest negative experience for me is confusion - I never feel confused with these folks).

BUT, there is also the tiny factor that, IME, they tend to be real jerks 'til they get to about their late 20's or 30's... then again, so do most people :laugh:

[Orsenfelt]

I understand ENTJ's perfectly. They're awesome :)
Probably the type with whom I've had the fewest negative experiences (biggest negative experience for me is confusion - I never feel confused with these folks).

BUT, there is also the tiny factor that, IME, they tend to be real jerks 'til they get to about their late 20's or 30's... then again, so do most people :laugh:

I guess it's about learning to control it..

I think I control it well, However I guess being Scottish doesn't help the situation. I'm not actually angry at you, I just happen to have a very raw, forthcoming accent... Don't be afraid :P

[Maverick]

Maybe it's just that other people don't feel appreciated by ENTJ's.

We don't always realize but it's important to show appreciation to other people and say positive things about them.

Being openly rational about everything isn't great for relationships...

[Gen]

Its so funny, because its still about perpectives. My father is an ENTJ so I can't say I dislike them or anything but your views are typical excuses really.



I will voice those opinions. However I do my best to listen to any reasoned answer, I don't think I am always right. (Well, Ok, I concede.. I am right until someone can give me a decent reason why I am not..)
The problem is that you will listen to a "reasoned" answer, but you are the judge of what that is.
I don't suffer fools gladly and you probably don't mind letting them know that either :doh:
I will walk away from meaningless conversations (To me meaningless is mundane conversations where no fact is actually exchanged for quite some time, Like chatting about TV Soaps.. why? It's fiction and it's not even very good fiction at that.)I do understand why you would want to do this but its, in a word, rude.

However I'd never do it to a friend or someone that has 'proved' themselve to me. They have to prove themselves to you before you'll allow your time to be wasted by their petty thoughts? (This is where that arrogant thing comes in.)
I will argue a point.. but I think I'm respectful. YOU think you are. My father has a way of laughing quietly when I speak sometimes. He probably doesn't even realize how disrespectful of me it feels, because basically, he tries.
I can take criticism, things don't always have to be done my way, Just give me a reason why yours is better. The problem is, how often does someone elses reason make sense to you? Again, its subjective, and the ENTJ tends to assume he's right.
I'm not a control freak, I respect your opinion, I respect that you can live your life the way you want to.. I just expect a bit of understanding when I tell you why I think you are wrong. If you can take onboard my opinion and give me a decent rebuttal.. You gain respect and and you have a place in my house any day. If you can't, You're a close minded moron? Must I really? You're saying that you respect others opinion and way of living, but you're going to tell them them why its wrong anyway. And without a decent rebuttal (in YOUR opinion, again) the person must be a closed minded moron. That is not respect of a persons opinion, its knowledge of the fact that they have their own, that's all. Respect of a person and their opinions includes finding a way to give your opinion gently, and not taking it personally when they disagree. Acceptance of the fact that you two have different opinions and that doesn't mean that either of you are idiots is what respect is.

I care deeply about my friends, and family who have proven themselves worthy (I have a lot of troubled extended family who, Quite honestly.. Aren't really all that worthy of the space they occupy. I don't believe you should love your family unconditionally, They are people too which in turn means they can possibly be complete bastards also..)
:laugh: Not a very loving thing to say, but I agree with you... lol

I guess, Obviously as I am ENTJ I don't really see any problem with any of this. I guess I can come across a bit heavy handed or arrogant.. However it's only to people who don't put any effort in. If your not willing to contribute to something, anything, I don't see why I should waste my time on you?


That's exactly where the arrogance comes off. The thing is that ENTJs can accept they might be wrong but they don't think that they are and since they are the judge of what is right and wrong in their own opinion its difficult to convince them. This is in contrast with other types who actually question themselves and their own opinions openly. I'll tell you what my opinion is and that I might be missing something and wrong, and ENTJ will not usually do that. They're right until you provide proof that they're not.

Anyway, I'm not trying to attack you at all; it doesn't really make a difference to me. I'm just trying to show how you're still not really looking at yourself from an outside view. If you did, you'd see how its possible that you could be wrong and not even know it. ;)

[Kora]

The problem with ENTJs is that they usually act like they're forgiving the others. Things like blessing us with their presence, or taking the effort of listening to what we have to say and consequently correct us. And what's worse, they often won't see it.
But they can also be nice when they like someone... I guess.

[Orsenfelt]

Its so funny, because its still about perpectives. My father is an ENTJ so I can't say I dislike them or anything but your views are typical excuses really.

Hah, So right. It's difficult to see it from the outside. I will say, I don't see them as 'excuses', More .. reasons as to why I am like this?

That's to say, I'm not trying to justify my actions, They are just that straight forward to begin with heh.
(Yes, I realize taking the effort to reply is justifying.. godamnit)

The problem is that you will listen to a "reasoned" answer, but you are the judge of what that is.
While true, I'd like to think I'm quite open ended when it comes to that. I actively ask for input. I don't think I even have high standards, Basically don't just dribble and it's ok =)

Like now, I totally accept your answer because I'm man enough to admit I don't know me from the outside, If that makes sence..

and you probably don't mind letting them know that either :doh:
It depends really, I'm quite overly pleasant to people. Well, That is to say I don't tell them to shut up, I don't sigh, I don't do anything like that (Consciously, that I know of.. Nobody's ever said anything :eek:). I'll just smile pleasantly, listen and wait out the conversation, Leaving with a kind of mediocre thought of event. You could say it's a very rude thing to not show your true colours.. but I can't help it if I don't like someone, I think being civil is a better way of dealing with it heh, It's more rational to me anyway.

Swings and Roundabouts I guess you could say.

I do understand why you would want to do this but its, in a word, rude.
It's not something I make a habit out of, I only pull it out on those 'special occasions'. Namely when there is a friend left behind to explain the situation.. heh

They have to prove themselves to you before you'll allow your time to be wasted by their petty thoughts? (This is where that arrogant thing comes in.)
YOU think you are. My father has a way of laughing quietly when I speak sometimes. He probably doesn't even realize how disrespectful of me it feels, because basically, he tries.

See, This is where I kind of go against some of the ENTJ write-ups I have red. I hate being disrespectful. It's true, I don't enjoy talking with many, many people. However I am pleasant enough not to make them feel like I really don't like them. Again it comes back to the 'Lying to their face' thing.
However I am fairly sure that if I was boring someone, I'd prefer they be very british about it and wait out the chat with a bit of class.

The problem is, how often does someone elses reason make sense to you? Again, its subjective, and the ENTJ tends to assume he's right.
Quite a lot actually, Depending on what it is.

For example, I own my own IT business. (Typical ENTJ I guess?). However I know fine well that I am not a creative person, I abandoned my creative side long ago. I specifically hired people to be my creative side. I have a general idea of what I think would work well, They go off and fill in the blanks. I've taught myself to trust them, I hired them because I wasn't creative, It's irrational to think I know any better..

Must I really? You're saying that you respect others opinion and way of living, but you're going to tell them them why its wrong anyway. And without a decent rebuttal (in YOUR opinion, again) the person must be a closed minded moron. That is not respect of a persons opinion, its knowledge of the fact that they have their own, that's all. Respect of a person and their opinions includes finding a way to give your opinion gently, and not taking it personally when they disagree. Acceptance of the fact that you two have different opinions and that doesn't mean that either of you are idiots is what respect is.

I think I worded that wrong. I do respect other peoples opinions, I just think it's common courtesy for you to take on board my opinion also. I listened to yours, You listen to mine. You don't have to act on it, You don't have to believe it, You can think I am a raving lunatic.. So long as you show me the same common courtesy I showed you, We are all equals after all.

I don't enforce my opinion on people, I don't get annoyed that someone isn't living their life how I would live their life.

I think maybe the listing gave this post an air of something that wasn't intentioned lol.

:laugh: Not a very loving thing to say, but I agree with you... lol
Hah, I think it's more of an upbringing thing than anything. I know people of various types that dislike family..

That's exactly where the arrogance comes off. The thing is that ENTJs can accept they might be wrong but they don't think that they are and since they are the judge of what is right and wrong in their own opinion its difficult to convince them. This is in contrast with other types who actually question themselves and their own opinions openly. I'll tell you what my opinion is and that I might be missing something and wrong, and ENTJ will not usually do that. They're right until you provide proof that they're not.

I think you have estimated my standards too high. In my opinion, There are no degree's of a reasoned response. Like I said above, Just give me something. It doesn't have to be thought out to my standards, It doesn't have to comply with my rules.. Just, try.. even the slightest.

Obviously, You could say that that is a standard, However can you find anyone who thinks otherwise? If you ask someone a question and they reply "Meh".. Do you personally think that is an acceptable response?

Anyway, I'm not trying to attack you at all; it doesn't really make a difference to me. I'm just trying to show how you're still not really looking at yourself from an outside view. If you did, you'd see how its possible that you could be wrong and not even know it. ;)

Hah, It's good fun, A good debate.

Can one truly see oneself from another perspective? I personally doubt it.
Ofcourse it's possible that I could be wrong, Infact more often than not I am wrong, but until someone gives me an alternate (Not better by my standards, Not logical.. Just something else to think over) to whatever I made up in my head.. I am right.

Basically, The point of my post, After some mulling over was down to one thing.

It seems that the E or I for NTJ's points a pretty extreme picture either way.
I score 69% E.. and reading the description makes me feel like a bit of a ****. I think realisticly I fall somewhere in the middle. I try to be as open, honest and have my opinions heard.. However I certainly hope I don't insult people just by doing so, That would be horrible 0.o

The descriptions of ENTJ paint a picture of a selfish, loud mouth, shallow and ignorant buffoon. While I can see the benefits of being that 'full on'.. I'd like to think it's not just a reflex, That I can control it...

[Orsenfelt]

The problem with ENTJs is that they usually act like they're forgiving the others. Things like blessing us with their presence, or taking the effort of listening to what we have to say and consequently correct us. And what's worse, they often won't see it.
But they can also be nice when they like someone... I guess.

Playing devil's advocate: Is that us acting like we forgive you, Or is that you having a lower opinion of yourself making what you hear convoluted? :hug:

[Economica]

Excellent post, Gen. :nice:

I'm about to hand in a master's thesis written in collaboration with an ENTJ. Overall she's been great, truly, and I especially respect and appreciate her objectivity (I call it objectivity because, both of us being NTJs, we tend to share the same subjective view of what's objectively true ;)) but one thing I would like to change about her is the right-until-proven-wrong attitude: She will put forward an idea or a viewpoint and will want to act on it immediately. I may instantly have my doubts but will often need time to crystallize my objection before I can convince her. She will accept that she needs to wait for me to do so but in the meantime she will exude an impatience that I'm sure less headstrong people than I find either too intimidating or too annoying or both for them to bother to provide their input, because the fact that she will openly and ungrudgingly acknowledge it when I turn out to be right (which is an improvement over INTJs!) is not enough to compensate for the resentment I feel at her initial impatience on account of the needless pressure it puts me under.

I've seen this with other ENTJs as well. Their steamroller approach turns people off for a variety of reasons (in my case, it's not so much the arrogance - I give as good as I get on that score :blush: - as the fact that my performance suffers when I'm put on the spot) and they therefore miss out on quality input that a more patient, self-doubting and open approach would in many cases yield (from the right people, anyway*). This is of course inefficient, which is ironic considering that ENTJs in my experience really are all about maximizing effiency and will in fact gladly incorporate quality input when they do get it.

* I'm not saying I don't understand why so many ENTJs come to adopt the steamroller approach; they/you *are* the most lightning-quick and competent in Te matters and so it's a decent rule of thumb that others probably have nothing to offer you - but there are many exceptions to the rule and missing out on the exceptions means achieving less excellence. If you're an ENTJ and you disagree that there are many exceptions, then you're either in an understimulating environment (which you can do something about (unless you're too young, but then take this opportunity to practice patience! ;))) or you can be sure that your attitude is turning off the people who could provide you with quality input. :yes:

[Orsenfelt]

* I'm not saying I don't understand why so many ENTJs come to adopt the steamroller approach; they/you *are* the most lightning-quick and competent in Te matters and so it's a decent rule of thumb that others probably have nothing to offer you - but there are many exceptions to the rule and missing out on the exception means achieving less excellence. If you're an ENTJ and you disagree that there are many exceptions, then you're either in an understimulating environment (which you can do something about (unless you're too young, but then take this opportunity to practice patience! ;))) or you can be sure that your attitude is turning off the people who could provide you with quality input. :yes:

Excellent point.

I used to be pretty much 100% steamroller, It does work. However after a few years in the ever changing, ever-different IT world, Being surround by very knowledgeable people.. I learned to control it. I can bite my tongue now, If I start feeling that :steam: coming on =)

Don't get me wrong, I can pull it out from time to time and damnit stuff get's done! It's just not the best approach when dealing with new clients really.. :doh:

[IlyaK1986]

Why do we adopt the steamroller approach? Because there's lots to do and not enough time to do it.

[Economica]

there's lots to do and not enough time to do it.

That reminds me... What are you all doing here? I cannot imagine any of the ENTJs I know, with one exception and she doesn't practice steamrolling (anymore ;)), spending their precious time hanging out on an internet forum. :huh:

[IlyaK1986]

I only hang out after I did my stuff for the day. And while I'm waiting for the breakfast cafe to open on the weekends.

[entropie]

I only hang out after I did my stuff for the day. And while I'm waiting for the breakfast cafe to open on the weekends.

Sounds suspensing :D

[YourLocalJesus]

That reminds me... What are you all doing here? I cannot imagine any of the ENTJs I know, with one exception and she doesn't practice steamrolling (anymore ;)), spending their precious time hanging out on an internet forum. :huh:

You didn't get the memo? Knowledge is power! ;) And since we are bent on world domination, we need that, too :blush:

[FDG]

I do have strong opinions

On some things. Generally, the more I have studied something, the more my opinions are strong. If it's something I don't know about, I don't have strong opinions.


I will voice those opinions. However I do my best to listen to any reasoned answer, I don't think I am always right. (Well, Ok, I concede.. I am right until someone can give me a decent reason why I am not..)

In what I'm right, I know I'm right. Usually those are "indisputable facts" like "mountain X is 2986 metres tall". Anything else I have some opinions, but I don't voice them a lot, at least not anymore.


I don't suffer fools gladly

Well, yeah. Who does?


I will walk away from meaningless conversations (To me meaningless is mundane conversations where no fact is actually exchanged for quite some time, Like chatting about TV Soaps.. why? It's fiction and it's not even very good fiction at that.) However I'd never do it to a friend or someone that has 'proved' themselve to me.

Probably yes, even though from time to time I may like soap operas.


I don't raise my voice

Nah, I raise my voice a lot, but not when I'm arguing. I raise it only to make annoying noises for fun, basically.


I consider my thoughts before I speak

Yeah, who doesn't?


I will argue a point.. but I think I'm respectful.

I used to argue a lot more, now I just do my thing and waste less time.


I can take criticism, things don't always have to be done my way, Just give me a reason why yours is better.

No, not exactly. If I'm doing something and somebody else comes along telling me to do in a different way, I have no problem letting them take over the task and do it themselves. Otherwise, I do it my way.


I'm civil, I don't interrupt or laugh etc
That said, I'm not one for trivial social 'nice-ities'

I laugh a lot at what people say, sometimes shit is so absurd...


Basically, It boils down to this. Everyone is an idiot, a fool, nobody.. Until you prove otherwise. Nothing major, Just prove you know your own mind, That your not in the habit of making things up and I let you in, I consider your ideas and value your input. If on the other hand you have nothing to contribute, You may aswell be mute and invisible as far as I am concerned.


That's an illogical philosophy, the starting point is not objective. Everybody is neutral at the start, and then may become great or an idiot depending on what they do. But they don't have to prove me anything. Yes, I'm God-like, but I'm a benevolent God :smile:

That reminds me... What are you all doing here? I cannot imagine any of the ENTJs I know, with one exception and she doesn't practice steamrolling (anymore ), spending their precious time hanging out on an internet forum.

I work from home at the computer, and peak-productivity is only reached when interruptions are allowed (at least, for the way I am done).

[Jeffster]

Well, yeah. Who does?

I might. What does it mean?

[FDG]

I might. What does it mean?

I don't know, I think it depends on what the author meant for "fool"

[runvardh]

I've done this. It is taxing on the reserves, but sometimes things have to get done and there's no real time for fracking around. I'm also someone who hates having his time wasted; but that's only if it's something my Fi hasn't planned up, so I'm more irrational here. That said, I go through life hoping that I'm wrong, mostly because the situations I'm figuring out have some poor ends approaching and I end up hating it when I'm right - makes a man paranoid.

[entropie]

To randomly deploy suitcases in the baggage claim area in your home airport and then when an airplane lands to go there again and take the suitcase wearing a fine suit, telling girls, who just arrived, you just arrived too and you are a rich businessman, is NO WASTE OF TIME !

It just depends on the angle, aswell the distance you view the point from :D

[LadyJaye]

My best friend is an ENTJ, and we get along wonderfully, even when we disagree. She stays very engaged in our friendship, I feel like when I'm talking to her, that she's listening and taking in what I'm saying, so she can then give her opinion. And we can both be blunt with each other, which I really value. I don't have to pretty up what I'm saying to her, because it's understood that the things we say to each other, even if it's not what the other person wants to hear, it's spoken out of genuine concern. We can disagree because it's not the end of the world.

[Bougal]

I think I’m a good and very approachable individual, and I think that ENTJs are simply misunderstood.

I am very opinionated, and I assert those opinions, but I’m not too overbearing. I do think I am right until I am proven wrong, and I can usually persuade others to my way of thinking. If I think someone I respect is questioning my competence, I can try far too hard to try to prove myself to them.

I get along with most people, and most of my peers respect me for taking the reins in group projects and class discussions. I would say I am well liked, and am not seen as being too domineering.

When it comes to meeting people, I try to get to know them without forming preconceptions. I commonly find people who have beautiful personalities, but I don’t connect with intellectually. When I come across someone I can connect with intellectually, I am usually turned off by their arrogance. Because of this I have a wide range of acquaintances, but very few close friends that I can talk and debate with, which is a very important pass time for me. All of these people are very strong Ns.

I can be an internal bitch, and commonly have an urge to say things that are critical and could be perceived as hurtful, but I have learned that that kind of behavior gets me nowhere in life, so I repress it about 85% of the time. In turn, most everyone thinks I’m a sweetheart. When I do unleash my tongue, I think it is warranted, and it is usually because of inefficiency or ignorance. I hate hate HATE both inefficiently and ignorance.

I think that meanness is a sign of a lack of self control.

I like to argue the unpopular unrepresented side of a topic in discussion just for fun. I like for the people I surround my self with to be truly aware of the topic, so I see it as my job to educate them.

I am open minded, and I am always looking to learn, and it is easy for me to forgive and forget.

[Lucifer]

This is who I am.
-I believe that most people are idiots and are not worth listening too

-I only listen to people who speak in unbiased factual information, the others
I simply take apart their argument one piece at a time until they cry

-People who care about feelings and soap operas and the like intrigue me then are found to be mainly downright masochists

-I am arrogant and care nothing for people who can not live up to my standards

-I am arrogant because I am good at anything that I set my mind too and no person is my superior

-Simple folk (Guardians and Artisans) are so caught up in themselves it is laughable

-Idealists always look at something from the wrong side, and rationals view something as it should be, simply

-Soceity is a hypocritical joke

-ENTJ and INTJ ARE the evilest types in the way other types describe evil, but we know better, we know evil is something they call what they do not understand and can never accomplish

-We are also the evilest types because we have the power to cause so much `evil` (or good if it was desired)

-I care for only those who share my dream of a world that should be

-I have no patience for the dumb or ignorant

-I am not a racist or sexist, intelligent people and the rest is how I break down the population

-Excuses and defeat is for the weak mind and body

-Victory in any form is the ultimate endeavour, showing it off is close second

-Knowledge is the only universal truth and I wished that eveyone would
understand that there is no God and you are brainashed by the most sinister corperation on the planent:the church

-I have no real wish to destroy men or belittle them, it is just they are so dumb and ignorant about this little world they live in and have no grasp on reality they just ask for it

-they assume they are right when they outnumber someone, when really the fact is they become even more incorrect because they have more morons supporting their beliefs

-I believe everyone should geta vote for every I.Q. they have because there is no way my vote should be equal to Joe Blow`s vote down the street who can only manage to drink alcohol and beat his wife and family in a day.

-homosexuality is opposite to existence and is alot more terrible then people realize

-I feel no reason to live as others do or be controlled by the propganda aimed at people to make them a certain way

-I find things like advertisements to be so hollow, you can see the multi-angled approachthey take to convince people to buy things, and it saddens me that it works

-I want to create a world free of religion and people who cannot help themselves

-I think people should have a chance to succed but in failure they are on their own

-ENTJ and INTJ have a duty to run the world because no one else can, or they can burn it to the ground

-I do not need to rule the world, the world needs me to rule it

[Fuent]

This is who I am.
-I believe that most poeple are idiots and are not worth listening too

-I only listen to people who speak in unbiased factual information, the others
I simply take apart their argument one piece at a time until they cry

-People who care about feelings and soap operas and the like intrigue me then are found to be mainly downright masochists

-I am arrogant and care nothing for people who can not live up to my standards

-I am arrogant because I am good at anything that I set my mind too and no person is my superior

-Simple folk (Guardians and Artisans) are so caught up in themselves it is laughable

-Idealists always look at something from the wrong side, and rationals view something as it should be, simply

-Soceity is a hypocritical joke

-ENTJ and INTJ ARE the evilest types in the way other types describe evil, but we know better, we know evil is something they call what they do not understand and can never accomplish

-We are also the evilest types because we have the power to cause so much `evil` (or good if it was desired)

-I care for only those who share my dream of a world that should be

-I have no patience for the dumb or ignorant

-I am not a racist or sexist, intelligent people and the rest is how I break down the population

-Excuses and defeat is for the weak mind and body

-Victory in any form is the ultimate endeavour, showing it off is close second

-Knowledge is the only universal truth and I wished that eveyone would
understand that there is no God and you are brainashed by the most sinister corperation on the planent:the church

-I have no real wish to destroy men or belittle them, it is just they are so dumb and ignorant about this little world they live in and have no grasp on reality they just ask for it

-they assume they are right when they outnumber someone, when really the fact is they become even more incorrect because they have more morons supporting their beliefs

-I believe everyone should geta vote for every I.Q. they have because there is no way my vote should be equal to Joe Blow`s vote down the street who can only manage to drink alcohol and beat his wife and family in a day.

-homosexuality is opposite to existence and is alot more terrible then people realize

-I feel no reason to live as others do or be controlled by the propganda aimed at people to make them a certain way

-I find things like advertisements to be so hollow, you can see the multi-angled approachthey take to convince people to buy things, and it saddens me that it works

-I want to create a world free of religion and people who cannot help themselves

-I think people should have a chance to succed but in failure they are on their own

-ENTJ and INTJ have a duty to run the world because no one else can, or they can burn it to the ground

-I do not need to rule the world, the world needs me to rule it

Lol. Such an angry person.

[Gen]

-I am arrogant and care nothing for people who can not live up to my standards

-I want to create a world free of religion and people who cannot help themselves

-I do not need to rule the world, the world needs me to rule it

:shock:

To the OP - this is why ENTJ's are "misunderstood". lol

[FDG]

This is who I am.
-I believe that most people are idiots and are not worth listening too

-I only listen to people who speak in unbiased factual information, the others
I simply take apart their argument one piece at a time until they cry

-People who care about feelings and soap operas and the like intrigue me then are found to be mainly downright masochists

-I am arrogant and care nothing for people who can not live up to my standards

-I am arrogant because I am good at anything that I set my mind too and no person is my superior

-Simple folk (Guardians and Artisans) are so caught up in themselves it is laughable

-Idealists always look at something from the wrong side, and rationals view something as it should be, simply

-Soceity is a hypocritical joke

-ENTJ and INTJ ARE the evilest types in the way other types describe evil, but we know better, we know evil is something they call what they do not understand and can never accomplish

-We are also the evilest types because we have the power to cause so much `evil` (or good if it was desired)

-I care for only those who share my dream of a world that should be

-I have no patience for the dumb or ignorant

-I am not a racist or sexist, intelligent people and the rest is how I break down the population

-Excuses and defeat is for the weak mind and body

-Victory in any form is the ultimate endeavour, showing it off is close second

-Knowledge is the only universal truth and I wished that eveyone would
understand that there is no God and you are brainashed by the most sinister corperation on the planent:the church

-I have no real wish to destroy men or belittle them, it is just they are so dumb and ignorant about this little world they live in and have no grasp on reality they just ask for it

-they assume they are right when they outnumber someone, when really the fact is they become even more incorrect because they have more morons supporting their beliefs

-I believe everyone should geta vote for every I.Q. they have because there is no way my vote should be equal to Joe Blow`s vote down the street who can only manage to drink alcohol and beat his wife and family in a day.

-homosexuality is opposite to existence and is alot more terrible then people realize

-I feel no reason to live as others do or be controlled by the propganda aimed at people to make them a certain way

-I find things like advertisements to be so hollow, you can see the multi-angled approachthey take to convince people to buy things, and it saddens me that it works

-I want to create a world free of religion and people who cannot help themselves

-I think people should have a chance to succed but in failure they are on their own

-ENTJ and INTJ have a duty to run the world because no one else can, or they can burn it to the ground

-I do not need to rule the world, the world needs me to rule it

You're a shame for our type.

[Lucifer]

It is not my fault you cannot accept who you are FDG.

[FDG]

It is not my fault you cannot accept who you are FDG.

It's not my fault if you cannot accept that I am a superior specimen of ENTj.

[evan]

-homosexuality is opposite to existence and is alot more terrible then people realize

I honestly don't have a problem with most of what you said, but I don't get this.

You are very rational, so can you make an argument for this?

To me, it seems like sex is one thing that doesn't affect anyone else. No harm, no foul, right? If they don't want to have biological children, well, who cares?

[Lucifer]

Alright,

If you are a man of science, as I am, you will follow this quite easily.
Man has evolved from the smallest micro-organism on this planet, as has all life on this planet, and this life has EVOLVED, being the key word.

Evolution is the process of increasing a creatures ability to survive by adapting to a changing enviroment whether it is the climate or another species.

The only way evolution can exist in mammalian species is by the transfer of genes from a father and mother.

The thing that all creatures on this planet have in common and is the single driving function to this macro-organism that is humanity is:
Survival.

Now on our planet no living creature can exist past a certain time period and it expires once this time period elapses.

You may be asking: "well if everthing dies how can life exist?"

Good question Billy. Well you see that before an organism dies it is driven by a genetic inlay in their instincts to procreate.

Hence the only way from a species to survive is to procreate since a lifeform can only exist for a certain period of time.

This process leads me to the conclusion that homosexuals represent the death of our species. Whether it is a mental or genetic factor, it still exists and is the complete opposite of survival for the species.

[nonsequitur]

Alright,

If you are a man of science, as I am, you will follow this quite easily.
Man has evolved from the smallest micro-organism on this planet, as has all life on this planet, and this life has EVOLVED, being the key word.

Evolution is the process of increasing a creatures ability to survive by adapting to a changing enviroment whether it is the climate or another species.

The only way evolution can exist in mammalian species is by the transfer of genes from a father and mother.

The thing that all creatures on this planet have in common and is the single driving function to this macro-organism that is humanity is:
Survival.

Now on our planet no living creature can exist past a certain time period and it expires once this time period elapses.

You may be asking: "well if everthing dies how can life exist?"

Good question Billy. Well you see that before an organism dies it is driven by a genetic inlay in their instincts to procreate.

Hence the only way from a species to survive is to procreate since a lifeform can only exist for a certain period of time.

This process leads me to the conclusion that homosexuals represent the death of our species. Whether it is a mental or genetic factor, it still exists and is the complete opposite of survival for the species.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. Biochemist/Molecular Biologist here on dinner break, I simply can't stand to see such fallacies perpetuated as "science".

Evolution has long been used by social darwinists and bigots to justify alienation and persecution of minorities.

Your understanding of evolution and the different facets of evolution is really narrow and... wrong. I am not saying that evolution does not take place. What I'm saying is that factors such as the survival of the fittest/evolution of a species takes place over millions of years. You cannot claim to be a fair judge of what is the "fittest". All you can do is claim that your individual type is the fittest and that is why you should be privileged. i.e. heterosexuals are surviving now, which indicates that we are the strongest, which means that everyone else is weaker. That is the anthropic principle speaking and circular logic. Which, of course, reflects more on your personality than evolution ever could.

Also, "mother" and "father" are extremely fluid (and homo sapiens-specific) terms. You may know that there are quite a few species of reptiles and fish that change sex several times over the course of their lifetime. Or you may not, and persist in thinking of the larger ecological world in terms that can only be applied from a human-centric (and therefore inaccurate) perspective.

You may be interested to know that many species of birds and mammals mate for life in a homosexual fashion. They continue to reproduce with opposite sexes, but biologists have observed that the offspring are raised by the committed homosexual partners. These species thrive and survive too, completely debunking your "theory". I suppose following your logic, because everything is genetic, straight people never have gay children, because it would go against the survival of the species.

I get really annoyed when people claim to be "individuals of science" and then follow it with a whole lot of ill-substantiated and ignorant nonsense about evolution and social darwinism.

/after-dinner rant.

Oh btw, I think after reading this thread that ENTJs are probably as misunderstood as any other type on earth. Some individuals make the stereotype.

[Lucifer]

Also, "mother" and "father" are extremely fluid (and homo sapiens-specific) terms. You may know that there are quite a few species of reptiles and fish that change sex several times over the course of their lifetime. Or you may not, and persist in thinking of the larger ecological world in terms that can only be applied from a human-centric (and therefore inaccurate) perspective.

I do believe I said mammalian species and I am aware of the difference from reptilians and used mother and father as a simple reference to gene transfer, another substitute could have been male female.

Also you missed how I said mental or genetic, so you opened up on some comment in my argument that was never made. You insisted I am an idiot because I said "straight families don't have gay children" when I never said anything about that.

My base theory isn't darwinism its the fact that everything tries to survive not that things that do, are in it of themselves their reason for existing because they can. My argument is that everythings purpose is to survive and that homosexuality is counter productive.

Might I add that your dinner has you rather worked up, or that you have a homosexual close to you that you are somehow defending which is hampering your ability to respond.

[nonsequitur]

I do believe I said mammalian species and I am aware of the difference from reptilians and used mother and father as a simple reference to gene transfer, another substitute could have been male female.

Also you missed how I said mental or genetic, so you opened up on some comment in my argument that was never made. You insisted I am an idiot because I said "straight families don't have gay children" when I never said anything about that.

My base theory isn't darwinism its the fact that everything tries to survive not that things that do, are in it of themselves their reason for existing because they can. My argument is that everythings purpose is to survive and that homosexuality is counter productive.

Might I add that your dinner has you rather worked up, or that you have a homosexual close to you that you are somehow defending which is hampering your ability to respond.
True enough. You did say mammalian, and I'm sorry I raised an irrelevant example. I'd just like to ask though... What makes mammals so special with regards to gene transfer and evolution? Why do we have specific mother/father terms? I still think it goes back to a human-centric view of other species, especially those more closely related to us, i.e. mammals. Reptiles have survived far longer, so by definition they are a lot "fitter", are they not? Should evolution not drive everyone towards being a hermaphrodite? Wouldn't it be a lot more efficient?

Is mental not genetic? Please prove otherwise. Also, in no way did I say that you were an idiot. I did say that you were ignorant. There is a difference. I also did not say that you said that straight families do not have gay children. I used that example to illustrate that "fitness" and "survival" of a species are not dependent on reproduction and genetic transfer alone. If homosexuals were "counter-productive", why is it that it persists and is increasingly observed (in other species apart from homo sapiens too)? Your argument is that: If we survive, we are efficient (you said that evolution was the driving force behind speciation)... Therefore we have to be efficient (heterosexual) to survive. I am just pointing out that it's not true and bad logic.

Actually, I think the fact that two of my best friends are gay does not hamper my argument or response. If anything, it made me more certain that social darwinists are wrong... and that science and evolution must be kept in its scientific context.

Dinner was really spicy though.

[Lucifer]

I used the example in mammalian species particularly homo-sapien because that was the question, asking why I believe homosexuals in our culture are wrong.

I cannot stress enough that there is no social darwinist perspective here, although the differences are minimal, it is also key. I am not stating that things that survive are for sure superior, there are other factors that control species and that can come down to mere chance. I am merely expressing the fact that everthing on this planet strives TO survive.

Once more I never said anything was superior to reptiles or vice versa, in which case fish would be a shining example of evolution over time.

An example of genetic in lamens terms would something your born with, born a homosexual.
Where as I used mental to discern such a thing as a girl being beaten to the point where she is no longer attrcted to men and then become a homosexual.

Heterosexuality is essential in our species, for the survival of our species. If male and females are not attracted to each other then they won't procreate and henceforth humanity doesn't survive.

Everything you are criticising my argument for, isnt actually in my argument. You are turning my argument into something it is not.

Please respond if something doesn't fit, because I think you are seeing something else then what I am writing.

What kind of spicy we talking here?

[MacGuffin]

ENTJs = clearly understood.

[runvardh]

Wow, we're starting to have enough ENTJs to observe their maturity levels and possible directions of maturity. I wonder if we could cram a few more in here for observation.

[YourLocalJesus]

ENTJs = clearly understood.

Oh, that's rude to say ;) I'm sure many of us are quite hard to understand. At least the innermost thoughts and feelings that hardly ever escapes out into the world ;) But those are few. :D

[Uberfuhrer]

-ENTJ and INTJ have a duty to run the world because no one else can, or they can burn it to the ground

I love this one!

[evan]

Alright,

If you are a man of science, as I am, you will follow this quite easily.
Man has evolved from the smallest micro-organism on this planet, as has all life on this planet, and this life has EVOLVED, being the key word.

Evolution is the process of increasing a creatures ability to survive by adapting to a changing enviroment whether it is the climate or another species.

The only way evolution can exist in mammalian species is by the transfer of genes from a father and mother.

The thing that all creatures on this planet have in common and is the single driving function to this macro-organism that is humanity is:
Survival.

Now on our planet no living creature can exist past a certain time period and it expires once this time period elapses.

You may be asking: "well if everthing dies how can life exist?"

Good question Billy. Well you see that before an organism dies it is driven by a genetic inlay in their instincts to procreate.

Hence the only way from a species to survive is to procreate since a lifeform can only exist for a certain period of time.

This process leads me to the conclusion that homosexuals represent the death of our species. Whether it is a mental or genetic factor, it still exists and is the complete opposite of survival for the species.

So your same logic would apply to everyone that doesn't have children, not just homosexuals. Correct?

Do you actively hold something against these people? Or do you just think the overall effect is negative?

[Lucifer]

I believe they do have an overall effect that is negative, and the same does go for parents ho do not have children, especially western families that do not.

[Jennifer]

I used the example in mammalian species particularly homo-sapien because that was the question, asking why I believe homosexuals in our culture are wrong.

I cannot stress enough that there is no social darwinist perspective here, although the differences are minimal, it is also key. I am not stating that things that survive are for sure superior, there are other factors that control species and that can come down to mere chance. I am merely expressing the fact that everthing on this planet strives TO survive.

Once more I never said anything was superior to reptiles or vice versa, in which case fish would be a shining example of evolution over time.

An example of genetic in lamens terms would something your born with, born a homosexual.
Where as I used mental to discern such a thing as a girl being beaten to the point where she is no longer attrcted to men and then become a homosexual.

Heterosexuality is essential in our species, for the survival of our species. If male and females are not attracted to each other then they won't procreate and henceforth humanity doesn't survive.

Look: If evolution is what is in charge here, you have nothing to worry about.

The homosexual genetics inevitably kill themselves off, as you have described.
Leaving only heterosexuals.
(That's what you want, right?)

And if they do not kill themselves off, then there is no threat to the human race.
Because obviously homosexuals can procreate just fine, even if they're not particularly interested in het sex.

What's the issue?
As far as I can tell, using just basic logic, there is none.
You can just sit back and twiddle your thumbs or whatever and not worry about the threat of homosexuals destroying the human race.

Now, as far as "social conditioning" for example where a female is abused by men enough that she no longer feels safe enough to make herself vulnerable in sexual relationships with males and decides instead to build a love bond with another woman, well, what's that have to do with evolution?

Evolution is about natural selection, based on genetics.
Not pure social conditioning.
The woman's genes are still 'straight.'

Again, why bring that up at all?
It seems irrelevant to your case.

I believe they do have an overall effect that is negative, and the same does go for parents ho do not have children, especially western families that do not.

Hmmm.
I'm not seeing a lot of "logic" here yet.
Just fear of Other.

Wow, we're starting to have enough ENTJs to observe their maturity levels and possible directions of maturity. I wonder if we could cram a few more in here for observation.

Yeah, I really do think it's fascinating to see such a wide degree of speciments in one jar, I've only ever seen 2-3 ENTJs altogether on an entire forum -- and suddenly they're all showing up in this thread! :) Cool beans.

[Lucifer]

Well you see it is all extremely relevent.

I do not believe homosexuality is completely genetic or is even mainly genetic. And that is the point, thatsomething that is not part of our evolution and opposes the basic system of survival: life;procreate;death;life;procreate;death;ad infinitum.

I don't know if you understood that I do not fear it as a genetic disposition, I fear it as a social one, that people are opposed to something such as their opposite gender, are in fact merely rebelling against life, and that does bother me.

[Kora]

There are kids that at a very early age feel attracted to the same sex. Sometimes it's a choice, but it's in its majority something gen-

Wait. Wasn't this a thread about ENTJs?

[FDG]

I do not believe homosexuality is completely genetic or is even mainly genetic. And that is the point, thatsomething that is not part of our evolution and opposes the basic system of survival: life;procreate;death;life;procreate;death;ad infinitum.


Everything that happens to humans is part of our evolution (in a very broad sense). Read Stuart Mill's "On Nature" for a philosophical-logical discussion on the matter. Homosexuality could simply be a positive feedback mechanism to ensue some degree of sustainability to population growth; namely, we could easily think about a society where 30 percent of the newborns were homosexuals and this society would be more easily able to achieve a steady-state of population growth (given that space in the earth is not unlimited, this is a reasonable goal).

[runvardh]

Everything that happens to humans is part of our evolution (in a very broad sense). Read Stuart Mill's "On Nature" for a philosophical-logical discussion on the matter. Homosexuality could simply be a positive feedback mechanism to ensue some degree of sustainability to population growth; namely, we could easily think about a society where 30 percent of the newborns were homosexuals and this society would be more easily able to achieve a steady-state of population growth (given that space in the earth is not unlimited, this is a reasonable goal).

That's why we need to colonize the Moon and Mars! :D *still wants his maritan asperagus garden*

[evan]

I believe they do have an overall effect that is negative, and the same does go for parents ho do not have children, especially western families that do not.

Do you think that there is anything worse about a random homosexual than a heterosexual person that chooses not to have kids?

[Lucifer]

They are both equally troubling. I believe that homosexuality is choice and not genetic. People are born with different levels of estrogen and testosterone to the point where you have the part of our species that have male and female sexual organs. These are mutants of the species and are a part of the system experimenting.

But men who have a higher level of estrogen compared to the norm are not necessarily homosexuals, in fact I would put forth that because they are more feminine they are ostricised by their differences and then in that system they may choose to become homosexuals because they do not live up to the constant pressure of father figures and friends who judge them compared to the heterosexual stereotypical male.

The point dissonance is that both are choice and therefore are equally detrimental and similar. Now any viewers may want to jump all over my argument, as many people feel the need to respond to posts, saying that people dont choose etc. etc., but I am not talkingtoyou, and dissonance asked my opinon and I am giving it to him.

Especially if you are a feminist don't respond because I am growing weary of the blabber and non-sensical patterns that are your arguments.

[htb]

Apropos the thread about verbally articulating, every type has the potential to be misunderstood in mixed company. For ENTJs, the question is why and how they're misunderstood; and what action, based on an understanding of the given situation, can resolve conflicts.

Edit: For example --

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/jojo_ape/htb_ram.jpg

[Xander]

Basing my responses on ENTJs as a type.. and deliberately going for the stereotype..
I do have strong opinions
You don't say. I had almost forgotten that but fortunately you scribed it in my forehead with a mallet so I remembered
I will voice those opinions. However I do my best to listen to any reasoned answer, I don't think I am always right. (Well, Ok, I concede.. I am right until someone can give me a decent reason why I am not..)
You listen? Hah! You spend five seconds waiting for them to grab you and if they don't you suffer from a neat for of narcolepsy. Micro sleeping through the boring bits.
I don't suffer fools gladly
Oh you do if you decided previously that they weren't fools.
I will walk away from meaningless conversations (To me meaningless is mundane conversations where no fact is actually exchanged for quite some time, Like chatting about TV Soaps.. why? It's fiction and it's not even very good fiction at that.) However I'd never do it to a friend or someone that has 'proved' themselve to me.
Read as "entertain me or lose me".
I don't raise my voice
Oh I quite believe you. That I am partially deaf is purely my own fault for being in the same room as your reasoned diatribe about the lack of organisation.
I consider my thoughts before I speak
As long as it's not so important that it needs saying NOW!
I will argue a point.. but I think I'm respectful.
Reads as "You're a dumbass, I'm sorry to say. I stopped listening hours ago."
I listen carefully to your response, I validate, I Give my response
Which is usually "No".
I can take criticism, things don't always have to be done my way, Just give me a reason why yours is better.
Ie, unless I'm beaten to the floor I'm not listening lah lah lah lah lah.
I'm civil, I don't interrupt or laugh etc
Speak when you're spoken to. Got it.
That said, I'm not one for trivial social 'nice-ities'
= Sod off I don't value your input at present as it is interrupting my own.
I'm not a control freak, I respect your opinion, I respect that you can live your life the way you want to.. I just expect a bit of understanding when I tell you why I think you are wrong. If you can take onboard my opinion and give me a decent rebuttal.. You gain respect and and you have a place in my house any day. If you can't, You're a close minded moron?
= I respect you as long as you fit into my paradigm. Otherwise you are just stoopid.
I wouldn't say I am goal-chasing or shallow too much. I enjoy nice things, I enjoy having money in the bank, I aspire to better things, However I could do without it.. I just don't see why I should?
Too much = all consuming?
I don't set out to take over the world, I agree that if the opportunity was handed to me.. I'd have a go, Wouldn't everyone?
= I'm coming through unless you post guards on ALL the entrances.
I don't pretend to be good at everything, However I think I am good at leading, explaining and organizing. I don't see why I should have to know every detail of your business and every detail of someone else's business just to be good at getting you working together?
= If you know what's good for you you'll just shut up and get with the program. Capisce?
I care deeply about my friends, and family who have proven themselves worthy
If you're useful then I'll speak to you...

I should point out, before I get shot, that my father is an ENTJ and breaks most of the rules for ENTJs. The thing is that people only react to poorly developed ENTJs as ENTJs because the good one's are nothing like what people say they are.

Sure he still decides that some people are just idiots and treats them as such but they have to earn that label through sheer hard work and stupidity and even then he's quite prepared for the idea that even a fool can have a genius idea.

He does follow your "prove yourself" pattern but moreso from the idea that people can prove themselves worth listening to and if you manage to do so then he will listen even if it sounds like you're wrong.

I should also point out that this man knows the MBTI inside and out and that this knowledge has improved his development ten fold.

Developed ENTJs are caring and creative. When they plan it is a plan to encompass everyone's wants and needs and is not just some power trip. They are also often happy being in an advisers role and are much happier giving over control than their less developed bretheren.

[Xander]

-ENTJ and INTJ have a duty to run the world because no one else can, or they can burn it to the ground
So would it frighten you to know that the perfect adviser for an ENTJ is often an INTP? You see all your strategies and structures have a tendency to not see the problems they will encounter thinking that they can break through any resistance. Us INTPs, however, can show you where you will fail before you get there.
(This is of course based on the idea that both persons are adequately developed otherwise all bets are off.)

[Didums]

-homosexuality is opposite to existence and is alot more terrible then people realize



Evolution of Homosexuality (by a Biologist)

[Lateralus]

That reminds me... What are you all doing here? I cannot imagine any of the ENTJs I know, with one exception and she doesn't practice steamrolling (anymore ;)), spending their precious time hanging out on an internet forum. :huh:
Heh, I'm never just browsing the forum. I'm always doing at least a couple other things when I'm on here.

[Fuent]

Alright,

If you are a man of science, as I am, you will follow this quite easily.
Man has evolved from the smallest micro-organism on this planet, as has all life on this planet, and this life has EVOLVED, being the key word.

Evolution is the process of increasing a creatures ability to survive by adapting to a changing enviroment whether it is the climate or another species.

The only way evolution can exist in mammalian species is by the transfer of genes from a father and mother.

The thing that all creatures on this planet have in common and is the single driving function to this macro-organism that is humanity is:
Survival.

Now on our planet no living creature can exist past a certain time period and it expires once this time period elapses.

You may be asking: "well if everthing dies how can life exist?"

Good question Billy. Well you see that before an organism dies it is driven by a genetic inlay in their instincts to procreate.

Hence the only way from a species to survive is to procreate since a lifeform can only exist for a certain period of time.

This process leads me to the conclusion that homosexuals represent the death of our species. Whether it is a mental or genetic factor, it still exists and is the complete opposite of survival for the species.

Yeah man good luck to you finding a mate and procreating. You won't be doing the whole "surviving" thing you're so obsessed about when you can't find a mate because of your attitude. Your not gonna be helping the survival of the species just like those homosexuals you loathe for probably one of the dumbest reasons I've ever heard. You're a little too caught up in your theory of superiority. Snap out of it. No one likes a pompous sourpuss. This shit doesn't attract the ladies. It attracts bullets.

[Didums]

-I believe that most people are idiots and are not worth listening too

Yes by definition there is a disproportionate amount of intelligent people compared to average people, however it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't worth listening to them, you can learn about their psyche by determining the mistakes in their reasoning.


-I only listen to people who speak in unbiased factual information, the others
I simply take apart their argument one piece at a time until they cry

Well that depends on what Unbiased Factual Information means. I understand that you mean Objectively viewed information, but objectivity in itself is limited by the human perception. Bias itself is a hypocritical concept. I understand and relate to you on this, I'm just clarifying :)

-I care for only those who share my dream of a world that should be

What happens when your dream reaches fruition?

-homosexuality is opposite to existence and is alot more terrible then people realize

-I am not a racist or sexist...

Oh really? ;)

-I am arrogant and care nothing for people who can not live up to my standards

-I am arrogant because I am good at anything that I set my mind too and no person is my superior

In a power situation, I'm your superior :) (INTP oversees the ENTJ) But then again I need you to get the work done, so its mutual.

-ENTJ and INTJ ARE the evilest types in the way other types describe evil, but we know better, we know evil is something they call what they do not understand and can never accomplish

-We are also the evilest types because we have the power to cause so much `evil` (or good if it was desired)

-ENTJ and INTJ have a duty to run the world because no one else can, or they can burn it to the ground

ENTJ = Te Ni Se Fi
INTJ = Ni Te Fi Se

INTP = Ti Ne Si Fe

ENTJ and INTP make a better team. INTJ has more Feeling than us.

-I feel no reason to live as others do or be controlled by the propganda aimed at people to make them a certain way

-Soceity is a hypocritical joke

-I have no patience for the dumb or ignorant

-Knowledge is the only universal truth and I wished that eveyone would
understand that there is no God and you are brainashed by the most sinister corperation on the planent:the church

-I want to create a world free of religion and people who cannot help themselves

-I find things like advertisements to be so hollow, you can see the multi-angled approachthey take to convince people to buy things, and it saddens me that it works

Agreed.

-they assume they are right when they outnumber someone, when really the fact is they become even more incorrect because they have more morons supporting their beliefs

Yes, its quite sad. One genius cannot win an argument against a mob of morons with irrationality guiding their beliefs, they simply won't listen, and will say that 'the majority rules'.

-I believe everyone should geta vote for every I.Q. they have because there is no way my vote should be equal to Joe Blow`s vote down the street who can only manage to drink alcohol and beat his wife and family in a day.

Interesting idea, it has logical basis, but it would be rather difficult to implement. Which test would be used? What values assigned? How would you keep the masses from revolting?

-I do not need to rule the world, the world needs me to rule it

I never say never (irony), but I'll say that I highly doubt the ability for a world-monarch to rule for an extended period of time. It could happen, but it would soon break apart into smaller factions like all empires.

-I think people should have a chance to succeed but in failure they are on their own

In what sense? What if the person learns from his/her mistake and now you see more potential in him/her? Will they still be thrown under-the-bus?

-Excuses and defeat is for the weak mind and body

Defeat is a learning experience.

[evan]

They are both equally troubling. I believe that homosexuality is choice and not genetic. People are born with different levels of estrogen and testosterone to the point where you have the part of our species that have male and female sexual organs. These are mutants of the species and are a part of the system experimenting.

But men who have a higher level of estrogen compared to the norm are not necessarily homosexuals, in fact I would put forth that because they are more feminine they are ostricised by their differences and then in that system they may choose to become homosexuals because they do not live up to the constant pressure of father figures and friends who judge them compared to the heterosexual stereotypical male.

The point dissonance is that both are choice and therefore are equally detrimental and similar. Now any viewers may want to jump all over my argument, as many people feel the need to respond to posts, saying that people dont choose etc. etc., but I am not talkingtoyou, and dissonance asked my opinon and I am giving it to him.

Especially if you are a feminist don't respond because I am growing weary of the blabber and non-sensical patterns that are your arguments.

I see the consistency of your point of view (although I personally disagree, but whatever). Does it then follow that you choose who you are attracted to? That you could personally choose to be attracted to males?

I think the argument most people would use against yours is that sexual desire isn't within the reigns of rational thought. You have sexual impulses, and those impulses differ from person to person. Just as I see certain females and get a welling of desire, homosexual males see certain males and get that same effect. I know that I am not consciously choosing who causes that welling of desire -- for me, the trend is that only females have brought that out in me. I definitely didn't choose to be attracted to them, though, I just notice that I am.

If that is the way my attraction works, it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that a homosexual would have the same mechanism for attraction -- an unconscious one. They would just notice that their trend for attraction is pointed towards those of the same gender.

Another idea -- what about those homosexuals who still choose to reproduce through sperm donation (either males or females)? Do you find anything "wrong" about them?

[FDG]

So would it frighten you to know that the perfect adviser for an ENTJ is often an INTP? You see all your strategies and structures have a tendency to not see the problems they will encounter thinking that they can break through any resistance. Us INTPs, however, can show you where you will fail before you get there.
(This is of course based on the idea that both persons are adequately developed otherwise all bets are off.)

Yeah, I agree with this. For the same reason INTPs are also quite good when I am learning a new subject and I am not sure if my understanding is proceeding in the correct direction.

[untypable]

This is who I am.
-I believe that most people are idiots and are not worth listening too

-I only listen to people who speak in unbiased factual information, the others
I simply take apart their argument one piece at a time until they cry

-People who care about feelings and soap operas and the like intrigue me then are found to be mainly downright masochists

-I am arrogant and care nothing for people who can not live up to my standards

-I am arrogant because I am good at anything that I set my mind too and no person is my superior

-Simple folk (Guardians and Artisans) are so caught up in themselves it is laughable

-Idealists always look at something from the wrong side, and rationals view something as it should be, simply

-Soceity is a hypocritical joke

-ENTJ and INTJ ARE the evilest types in the way other types describe evil, but we know better, we know evil is something they call what they do not understand and can never accomplish

-We are also the evilest types because we have the power to cause so much `evil` (or good if it was desired)

-I care for only those who share my dream of a world that should be

-I have no patience for the dumb or ignorant

-I am not a racist or sexist, intelligent people and the rest is how I break down the population

-Excuses and defeat is for the weak mind and body

-Victory in any form is the ultimate endeavour, showing it off is close second

-Knowledge is the only universal truth and I wished that eveyone would
understand that there is no God and you are brainashed by the most sinister corperation on the planent:the church

-I have no real wish to destroy men or belittle them, it is just they are so dumb and ignorant about this little world they live in and have no grasp on reality they just ask for it

-they assume they are right when they outnumber someone, when really the fact is they become even more incorrect because they have more morons supporting their beliefs

-I believe everyone should geta vote for every I.Q. they have because there is no way my vote should be equal to Joe Blow`s vote down the street who can only manage to drink alcohol and beat his wife and family in a day.

-homosexuality is opposite to existence and is alot more terrible then people realize

-I feel no reason to live as others do or be controlled by the propganda aimed at people to make them a certain way

-I find things like advertisements to be so hollow, you can see the multi-angled approachthey take to convince people to buy things, and it saddens me that it works

-I want to create a world free of religion and people who cannot help themselves

-I think people should have a chance to succed but in failure they are on their own

-ENTJ and INTJ have a duty to run the world because no one else can, or they can burn it to the ground

-I do not need to rule the world, the world needs me to rule it

You cannot change the world with hate, much less to rule it. Forgive your enemy. becasuse they can never destroy you. Only you can destroy yourself.

Whatever plan you have in mind, you cannot do it all alone. Sooner or later you will have to cooperate with someone, and that someone is often someone you hate intensely.

[Kora]

Oh my, this is funny.
Exactly how do you plan to 'change' the world? Because, hello, the world is ruled by the richest. Are you rich? Or even better, do you have a nuclear arsenal in your house?
You're only a dude venting in a forum. Better stay in the reality and try to change the things that are on your reach... You're not going to rule the world, sorry.
And I don't think you don't say those things because you're an ENTJ. ENTJs can be... ENTJs, but you're a little bit out of line. Just my opinion.

Btw I smell a troll.

[Xander]

Btw I smell a troll.
Don't say that! There has to be someone to play with!! Besides I think it's more a case of an ENTJ going a little rampant. All you have to do is burst the bubble and they soon come down again.

It's just one of those points when you have to lay it on the table. Sure it's wrinkly and ugly but, damn it, it's a good friend!

[booya moon]

Alright,

If you are a man of science, as I am, you will follow this quite easily.
Man has evolved from the smallest micro-organism on this planet, as has all life on this planet, and this life has EVOLVED, being the key word.

Evolution is the process of increasing a creatures ability to survive by adapting to a changing enviroment whether it is the climate or another species.

The only way evolution can exist in mammalian species is by the transfer of genes from a father and mother.

The thing that all creatures on this planet have in common and is the single driving function to this macro-organism that is humanity is:
Survival.

Now on our planet no living creature can exist past a certain time period and it expires once this time period elapses.

You may be asking: "well if everthing dies how can life exist?"

Good question Billy. Well you see that before an organism dies it is driven by a genetic inlay in their instincts to procreate.

Hence the only way from a species to survive is to procreate since a life-form can only exist for a certain period of time.

This process leads me to the conclusion that homosexuals represent the death of our species. Whether it is a mental or genetic factor, it still exists and is the complete opposite of survival for the species.

Hey Lucy! Has someone been reading too much of Richard Dawkins lately? C`mon admit it :D
In my honest opinion, your arguments are just a bunch of populistic phrases with no real scientific proof (and I say this as a scientist).

To the topic of ENTJs: When you get to know them, most are really likable people. And yes, I think they are misunderstood - but is at least in part their own fault. Let me explain: they are so busy, that they think minding the feelings of others is a pure waste of time - they simply don`t have the time for that (it`s not that they want to hurt your feelings on purpose). I get along well with most of them. One ENTJ told me, she liked me because I don`t get offended easily - this proves my point :yes:

[OneWithSoul]

Hey! I have no problems with ENTJs! I find that for a balanced situation, ENTJs are needed..my step sister is an ENTJ and only lives with my and my family for half of the time..my father's an ENFP, and me and my sister are INFPs..and it seems that when my step sister is here, that things go over more "smoothly" and we stay in line better..which we love, because she's awesome!

[Fuent]

You cannot change the world with hate, much less to rule it. Forgive your enemy. becasuse they can never destroy you. Only you can destroy yourself.

Whatever plan you have in mind, you cannot do it all alone. Sooner or later you will have to cooperate with someone, and that someone is often someone you hate intensely.

What he/she said.

[Fuent]

Oh my, this is funny.
Exactly how do you plan to 'change' the world? Because, hello, the world is ruled by the richest. Are you rich? Or even better, do you have a nuclear arsenal in your house?
You're only a dude venting in a forum. Better stay in the reality and try to change the things that are on your reach... You're not going to rule the world, sorry.
And I don't think you don't say those things because you're an ENTJ. ENTJs can be... ENTJs, but you're a little bit out of line. Just my opinion.

Btw I smell a troll.

What he/she said.

[Lucifer]

I make no excuse for myself, I am who I am. This threads is about ENTJ's, and the starter of this thread described himself as ENTJ and listed all that entailed of him personally. I only did the same to useas information on this thread.

I do not needyour criticism, for it is a waste of all of our time. The rest of my posts are in response to direct questions by dissonance and his questions are rational questions about my beliefs and how to interpret them.

I do not care what you think, unless you have some particular question that involves actual points and thesis, and expects a response based on what I have said, and doesn't involve attacking my personality then you waste your time. You cannot change me, and I critiscise myself to make sure I am staying inline with my beliefs and informaton.

[tblood]

ENTJs are very true to themselves - in fact they may well be the proverbial "honest man" -- the problem is that the most dangerous man is an honest man.

[Lucifer]

Agreed.

[Eldanen]

Some ENTJs can be a bit like time bombs, so I don't really feel all that comfortable around them. But they do have a lot of internal material to work with and aren't as dependent on superifical externals :).

[Lucifer]

Eldanen and tblood where were you guys at the start of this thread?

Finally we have some constructive input, and it is also very true.

And it is also unbiased, instead of directed at me, anymore input would be great guys!

[Fuent]

:dry:

[Lucifer]

Its the truth.

[FDG]

Its the truth.

You're also ugly as fuck. It is the truth. Like it?

[Mitzy]

=o!

:popc1:

[FDG]

Something to add: some people hate the fact that I am almost always calm when I speak and I don't worry about anything. They take it as "arrogance", something akin "you just think you know everything". Well, I personally am just done that way: my biochemistry is such that I am not an anxious person, and that is all. I find completely ridiculous that somebody can get pissed for this reason.

[Lucifer]

You're also ugly as fuck. It is the truth. Like it?

Ah, you are gay, I'm sorry that I don't fit your metrosexual taste in men.

Yea I have muscles, sorry bud.

[YourLocalJesus]

Being the agitator that I am, at times, I thought i'd be the last person to say this: CALM DOWN, LADS! Our reputation is bad enough as it is. If you start to fight - wich I guess you're both pretty good at - and go all steamroller on eachother, you might be banned and shit like that. Ranting at homosexuals isn't popular, I did it once and I had to apologize, erase the post and be real nice. So not worth it. You're too far away from eachother anyway, and I know words isn't satisfying enough. Just face it, you'll never be able to beat the crap out of eachother IRL. :D

[Lucifer]

You're too far away from eachother anyway, and I know words isn't satisfying enough. Just face it, you'll never be able to beat the crap out of eachother IRL. :D

Yea that was on my mind, thanks for setting me straight Jesus.

Now I know why your dad keeps talking so highly of you.

:devil:

[YourLocalJesus]

Dude, my dad hates me, he sent me down to the jews and romans so that they collectively could nail me to some old dusty wood and sun dry me ! XD

Nah, but our dear moderators aren't too fond of these kinds of discussions. Would be nice with a thread or two where there were no restrictions, where cheap plane tickets were sold, and guns also. :D

[Fuent]

Dude, my dad hates me, he sent me down to the jews and romans so that they collectively could nail me to some old dusty wood and sun dry me ! XD

Nah, but our dear moderators aren't too fond of these kinds of discussions. Would be nice with a thread or two where there were no restrictions, where cheap plane tickets were sold, and guns also. :D

Preach.

:angry:

[IlyaK1986]

Dude, my dad hates me, he sent me down to the jews and romans so that they collectively could nail me to some old dusty wood and sun dry me ! XD

Nah, but our dear moderators aren't too fond of these kinds of discussions. Would be nice with a thread or two where there were no restrictions, where cheap plane tickets were sold, and guns also. :D

Jesus was a loudmouth schmuck that got crucified. The end.

Mohammed was a pedophile that fondled little girls and murdered pregnant women and probably killed kittens and ate babies. And you have 1.2 billion people across the world believing his bullshit which he used as an excuse to do that.

Shintoism believes there are little invisible people not just living in the sky--BUT EVERYWHERE! Though frankly, I happen to think this religion is fascinating from an outside-looking-in standpoint just by how there are these tranquil temples and tiny little elaborate shrines in the most out-of-the-way beautiful places I've ever seen in photographs.

Buddhism believes that in order to stop living meaningless existences, we have to lose our humanity!

Hinduism believes in 8-armed naked women being responsible for the creation of the world.

The Greeks and Romans believed their head honcho god was the pimp of pimps that threw lightning bolts when he was drunk.

All religion is bullshit. But all but one don't try to kill people that don't believe in it.

[Lucifer]

Yeap, especially for the NTs, where we could just throw down without everyone getting emotional.

Thats why G unit likes you though Jesus, because you did what he said, your a good son.

Mammon on the other hand...

[IlyaK1986]

Hah someone reported me for my last post in this thread. If someone honestly wants to take me up on my stance on ridiculing dogmas from when people thought the world was flat and that the best way to cure a person was to drain all their blood with leeches (NOT!), they can be my guest.

[booya moon]

Jesus was a loudmouth schmuck that got crucified. The end.

Mohammed was a pedophile that fondled little girls and murdered pregnant women and probably killed kittens and ate babies. And you have 1.2 billion people across the world believing his bullshit which he used as an excuse to do that.

Shintoism believes there are little invisible people not just living in the sky--BUT EVERYWHERE! Though frankly, I happen to think this religion is fascinating from an outside-looking-in standpoint just by how there are these tranquil temples and tiny little elaborate shrines in the most out-of-the-way beautiful places I've ever seen in photographs.

Buddhism believes that in order to stop living meaningless existences, we have to lose our humanity!

Hinduism believes in 8-armed naked women being responsible for the creation of the world.

The Greeks and Romans believed their head honcho god was the pimp of pimps that threw lightning bolts when he was drunk.

All religion is bullshit. But all but one don't try to kill people that don't believe in it.

IIyaK, you crack me up :rofl1:
And I don`t find your post offensive, although I am (somewhat) religious person.

[Bella]

Hah someone reported me for my last post in this thread. If someone honestly wants to take me up on my stance on ridiculing dogmas from when people thought the world was flat and that the best way to cure a person was to drain all their blood with leeches (NOT!), they can be my guest.

It wasn't me

[Kora]

Jesus was a loudmouth schmuck that got crucified. The end.
I'm sure he'll come back in the second book.

[YourLocalJesus]

I've got the copyright for my name ;) That old fart will have to write "Jeebus" or something in the sequel :D

(EDIT: THIS WAS MY 666th POST)

[Kora]

I think G-Sus sounds cooler.

[YourLocalJesus]

Too close, could still sue him ;)

[PurpleCloud]

Based on the fact that most ENTJ's have great communication skills, I don't think it's likely that we are misunderstood. Most people react negatively to harsh criticism, and an overall arrogant attitude, that may be why ENTJ's think they are misunderstood, when in reality people understand them, but don't want to be around them (yes, I am generalizing).

I, for one, was raised by an INFP father, which helped me GREATLY in relating to others in a . . . less threatening manner, so to speak. I used to think certain people were not WORTHY of speaking to me, because of their abundant stupidity. But, since I thrive on challenge, I CHALLENGE myself to try to understand the psyche of every being, which in result has made me more likeable =), and in turn less fitting of the stereotype people have of ENTJ's.

Arrogance leaves no room for growth, which is what ENTJ's want in the end. . .

[LeonardoLestat]

The problem with ENTJs is that they usually act like they're forgiving the others. Things like blessing us with their presence, or taking the effort of listening to what we have to say and consequently correct us. And what's worse, they often won't see it.
But they can also be nice when they like someone... I guess.

We f*ck up alot when it comes to feelings and people; so we try to be accepting of f*ckups; and we are tightasses when it comes to that sometimes :blush:
That's why we look forgiving.
By nature, we are two sided people; friendlies and psycho's. We get so dark about people that we don't know who we are anymore, and we feel like we are with aliens. We get quiet...

The whole attitude of blessing you with blablabla, is to show that we are not bastards entirely and do try to adjust to your needs and be 'social'.

I remember when I was young, I had a big grudge against the world (it's still a scar I won't lose) and I could not respect the people; they also kept being bastards... so when I was nice it was in a robotic way -- I thought 'well I feel hateful even when I meet good people, so try to be nice' and it came out all fake and robotic.
Now, I can really forgive people and sometimes even open up :D and it's more genuine.

[YourLocalJesus]

Arrogance leaves no room for growth, which is what ENTJ's want in the end. . .

Depends on what growth the ENTJ in particular would want, doesn't it?
I've tried the whole "understanding retards" part several times, but it's too frustrating. I like hanging out with intelligent people, that stimulates growth for me. It might not bring out the nurturing sides of my personality, but nobody is perfect.

Some of you will believe that my view of "intelligent" would be clouded by different prejudices etc... While that is the case with one or two of the MBTI types, I don't really disfavor someone because of political opinion. My friends are a weird mix of sentients... :shock:

Best friend: Male ENFJ, 21 (same age as me), non-political, pretty rational for an NF. Most of the time. Regardless, he's intelligent and has the best social skills available.

Good friend: Male ISTJ, 22, libertarian (used to be a big racist, but age and intelligence eventually caught up with that), cynic, takes skepticism to a new level. Very, very poor social skills (pretty funny to watch). Will most likely become a serial killer sometime during his lifetime. I don't talk much about IQ, most of the time. But this guy is probably pushing 200. He's a complete freak. :D

Good friend: Male INTJ, 24, liberal, total geek. We became good friends a few years ago when he introduced me to roleplaying games. He's the best storyteller i've encountered. He often comes with very good advice of all kinds... But that's probably natural from an INTJ. :)

Good friend: Male INTP, 21, non-political, geeky INTJ's brother. The very image of a holy paladin... The guy haven't even commited sin inside his own head. Insane. He doesn't appear bright, but he spits out truth every now and then. I think that he does a lot of thinking that nobody gets to share... Kind of like "Silent Bob".
He talks a lot though, because he's socially awkward. Both brothers NT does this little thing, but they are clearly introverts.
Probably the most honest guy in Scandinavia. Sorry, girls he's taken though. His girlfriend would kill anyone who tried :D

Good friend: Female ENFP, couldn't spell the word politic for a thousand bucks, insanely goodlooking, very manipulative but does it more like a game, she isn't really mean at all. When I first met her, I fell in love, but learning more about her I thought "good lord! gotta stay away from that venomous spider!" too many times, so we ended up as friends. I think that she liked having someone around that wasn't enthralled by her looks, so we became good friends. She moved to a town about 80 kilometers away recently, though. Nowdays I don't meet her more than once every three months or something. Imagine her as a slightly less intelligent, blonde, illiterate CaptainChick with fangs. :D


Pretty varied selection... All they have in common is that they're fairly smart in some ways. Had an ISFP friend once, too, but she was mostly demanding and annoying in general, so I stopped talking to her completely. I actually hid behind a shelf at the grocery store a few days ago because I didn't want to say hello to her :doh:
I find all of them to be stimulating to be around. Knowledge and (to some degree) intelligence does rub off, I believe.

[Maverick]

It's a waste of time to make efforts to be appreciated by people as an ENTJ. ENTJ's are arrogant bastards. People will see through their half baked attempts at being "nice" and it's fake.

[Mycroft]

It's a waste of time to make efforts to be appreciated by people as an ENTJ. ENTJ's are arrogant bastards. People will see through their half baked attempts at being "nice" and it's fake.

What's more, there will always be a large swath of humanity who take the two-fold "grievance" of having direction and being competent as a personal affront, making the construction of such a facade doubly the waste of effort.

[PurpleCloud]

ANY type of growth requires humility. I'm not saying you should hanging out with people you deem idiotic. My comment was in general, intellectual growth, emotional growth, any kind of growth.

ANYWAYS, we are all idiotic in some sense. . . the point is admitting it. Nobody's perfect ;) Even ENTJ's say so =)!

I must admit, though, most of my closest friends are NT's, so even though I try to relate to other people, my closest friends are usually very "intellectually active".

[Maverick]

Yes...

I think ENTJ's need to develop a "volume knob" and tone it down around people who don't value the same things that they do. That doesn't mean changing themselves and being super-friendly-social-nice (which they aren't and will seem fake), but rather adopting a more laid back and cool approach. Practically speaking, it means keeping their opinions for themselves, not arguing with others, giving up on controlling things, letting other people take the lead, and providing positive appreciation to others... unless otherwise required to do so (i.e. job, social role, etc.).

With other NT and/or assertive/self-confident types, the volume knob can come back up.

[Jae Rae]

Mav, I wish I knew you IRL. You're very wise and probably fun at parties, too.

[ZiL]

I know one ENTJ. He can be a total steamroller, but I admire his ability to get things done. He also upholds his values vehemently (environmental protection, taking care of others), though he doesn't seem comfortable with overt emotion.

His "volume" was set way too loud a few years ago, making hanging out with him a taxing experience, but in only a couple of hears he's mellowed a lot. He's only 19 now, so; so far he's off to a pretty good start in the maturity department.

[Maverick]

Mav, I wish I knew you IRL. You're very wise and probably fun at parties, too.

Thank you very much!

You're a very wise person too and I wish I knew you too IRL.

If you like people being silly, then I'm fun at parties:)

Cheers!