SJ/NT similarities?

[EJCC]

This may sound a bit farfetched, but I know that there are some.

For instance, I've noticed that my INTP dad and I both tend to put off really important things like sleep in order to do more work. We both tend to think sleep isn't nearly as important as getting that LAST THING DONE... and then that last thing turns into ten last things, and it's four in the morning and there you are.

What do you guys think?

[disregard]

I think you and your dad have that in common because he is your dad and you are his son.

[EJCC]

I think you and your dad have that in common because he is your dad and you are his son.

Daughter, actually.

Well, I feel totally shut down. I'd like to think my idea has some validity... I mean, I thought of it because people focus more on differences here than on similarities, but, you know...

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[disregard]

Well, INTP and ESTJ are both dominant thinkers. That's all I can come up with.

[booyalab]

There are some ideals that SJs and NTs share, like correctness and practicality. But they are obviously motivated by diametrically opposite learning and decision-making processes. You could say that SJs are just NTs turned inside out. SJs like concrete rules and principles like laws and traditions. NTs like abstract rules and principles like logic and systems.

[MEC]

Daughter, actually.

Well, I feel totally shut down. I'd like to think my idea has some validity... I mean, I thought of it because people focus more on differences here than on similarities, but, you know...

Anyone else have any thoughts?
Any chance you're both J?

[mlittrell]

their intelligences are similar

For example (this is general):

SJ -> logistical, tactical, strategical, diplomatic
SP -> tactical, logistical, strategical, diplomatic
NT -> strategical, diplomatic, tactical, logistical
NF -> diplomatic, strategical, logistical, tactical

I sort of look at strategical and tactical to be in the same ball park and logistical and diplomatic in another. This is a very very very vague description because it's too early in the morning and im not awake lol.

[EJCC]

There are some ideals that SJs and NTs share, like correctness and practicality. But they are obviously motivated by diametrically opposite learning and decision-making processes. You could say that SJs are just NTs turned inside out. SJs like concrete rules and principles like laws and traditions. NTs like abstract rules and principles like logic and systems.

This was what I was looking for, with my question. (Thanks, booyalab :)) Yes, their thought processes are drastically different, but what about values? Interests? What shared ideas would they bond over, if they became friends?

Any other thoughts?

[Jack Flak]

If I want to like an SJ, I minimize contact, precisely because we value opposing things. People are innately different, and can't be changed, so everyone has to be reckoned with somehow.

Like booyalab said, SJs and NTs often agree, but almost always for different reasons.

["?"]

Well, I feel totally shut down. I'd like to think my idea has some validity... I mean, I thought of it because people focus more on differences here than on similarities, but, you know...

Anyone else have any thoughts?As usual people want to give the system too much credence. Disregard is correct in my opinion, that your dad's work ethic greatly influenced you which is no different from generational welfare recipients, creating legacies, etc. This has nothing to do with type.

[cafe]

Some of the things I like about my NT husband are traits shared by my favorite SJs. Like others have said, they do what they do for different reasons, but the outcome is the same. For instance, my husband values competence, so he is conscientious like my favorite SJs. Both types can be very loyal and hold to their principals very staunchly, if for different reasons.

Also, both INTs and ISJs can have kind of a grumpy, stubborn, pessimistic vibe and dry/sardonic sense of humor. :wubbie:

[Mondo]

Also, both INTs and ISJs can have kind of a grumpy, stubborn, pessimistic vibe and dry/sardonic sense of humor.

This is true. ISTJs can be especially dry and sarcastic. I have a friend who I thought was an INTJ from some time for that reason. In terms of intelligence, I would say he has high strategic and logistical intelligence. Some things that make him different from the NT though is that he seems to get a lot of joy from planning social events and he is definitely more interested in the concrete than the abstract (engineer rather than getting a math degree). He also tends to get along the best with other more easily-typed-as-Guardian people. Guardians also have a much stronger sense of duty than Rationals. However, Guardians can be very geeky and science-oriented. If a Guardian is more naturally intelligent than a Rational, that Guardian will likely excel more in the sciences.

Also I also talked about MBTI with him and he said that he sees himself as an ISTJ over INTJ. However, he is someone who can seem very INTJ from first meeting him just from the fact that he's really smart.

[substitute]

I'm not sure about SJ, but ST and NT yes, have many things in common. Valuing logic and reason, things making sense, being the main common ground there.

The two of my closest friends whom I've known the longest and who are my first choices to do anything with are both ST's - one ISTJ and one ISTP. I can see that in some ways I have more in common with the ISTP because of there being two letters in common; but in other ways I have more in common with the ISTJ - a sense of duty being the main thing, though yes, usually for totally different reasons.

I find the place me and ISTJ butt heads most often is when it comes to me seeing different kinds of truth, whilst he only sees truth is truth is truth, and there is no place for lies in truthful behaviour/thought patterns. That is, to him, 'true' means 'factually true', whilst to me it's more along the lines of 'in the spirit of truth'... meaning that if keeping integrity to a root principle entails telling a lie, I don't see that as dishonesty, whilst he does.

However, as long as we don't examine each other's movitations, we tend to agree and get along very well 90% of the time. The trouble is that if he looks into my motivations, he tends to find me more and more 'unpredictable', 'untrustworthy' and other unflattering adjectives, and to see me more and more as 'fickle' and 'a loose canon'. These are things that my actual behaviour doesn't provide any evidence for at all! He only thinks these things of me when we discuss the reasons for the behaviour he previously approved of and even praised in me!! :wtf:

I don't think the clashes between us are down to NT vs SJ, but more NP vs SJ. When it comes to the T part, we seldom disagree on anything.

[Mondo]

I'm not sure about SJ, but ST and NT yes, have many things in common. Valuing logic and reason, things making sense, being the main common ground there.

I agree with substitute here. An ISTJ will seem much more like an NT than an ESFJ, for instance.
All the XXTJ types are stubborn sonuvabitches for sure! :newwink:

[substitute]

Yeah it's difficult to say what values an NT and SJ would share because I find the groupings of the temperaments quite arbitrary anyway... like I say, I can think of plenty of values STJ's share, but it's more on the T front than anything else - plain speaking, saying what you mean, being reasonable, being objective, avoiding emotional outbursts/pleas, making sense, judging things as good/bad/desirable/undesirable by usefulness and practicality as opposed to "how they make you feel"... but these things wouldn't be as deeply shared between an NT and SFJ.

[Mondo]

I think the intelligences Keirsey use are arbitrary as well because one can be equally skillful at strategy and logistics AND one can be equally skillful at diplomacy and tactics.

They are not opposites.
However, I agree with the idea that all Guardians will be skillful at logistics, all Rationals will be skillful at strategy, etc...

[entropie]

I think the intelligences Keirsey use are arbitrary as well because one can be equally skillful at strategy and logistics AND one can be equally skillful at diplomacy and tactics.

They are not opposites.
However, I agree with the idea that all Guardians will be skillful at logistics, all Rationals will be skillful at strategy, etc...

I tend to see it from this point of view. Diplomacy is more about finding common ground of two opposing systems, while tactics are about finding weak spots in another system. Logistics are about ressource managment, for example, while strategy is maximizing the effort in one direction to reach a goal; what can mean to sacrifice ressources and to speculate.

---

My ISTJ homie :D and I like to have harmony and predictable outcomes, when we meet in our circle of friends. We both value logic above all else and while he tends to be realistic, I tend to be idealistic. I would say I trust him until this point, where I know he would betray me. Maybe I am doing him wrong in thinking so, but he is a very private man and I am not sure about his intentions everytime, so I try to keep him at safe distance.

But for the simple going out on weekends having a beer marathon, he is really a great guy. He is easy going and has his basics rules, like "I would never drink dutch beer" but with that everybody can perfectly go along. In our group I accepted him as the boss and leader, because he is steady and everyone can rely on him.

We get along on those weekend trips pretty well, until I am drunk and launch one of my crusades :D. But he is used to it, as he saies, by now :yes:

[ygolo]

Well, theoretically. SJs and NTs have a focus on structure, while SPs and NF have a focus on motive.

I am not entirely sure how that translates to reality.

But in my interpretation of the theory (stereotypes)...

SJs have a focus on roles, responsibilities, duties, etc. NTs have a focus on principles, models, and truths. Both these create a focus on what may be called "structure" when looking at how people interact, and how the "ought" to interact.

SPs focus on courage, impact, impression, action, etc. while NFs focus on significance and meaning. Both these create a focus on what may be called "motive" when looking at how people interact, and how they "ought" to interact.

This may sound a bit farfetched, but I know that there are some.

For instance, I've noticed that my INTP dad and I both tend to put off really important things like sleep in order to do more work. We both tend to think sleep isn't nearly as important as getting that LAST THING DONE... and then that last thing turns into ten last things, and it's four in the morning and there you are.

What do you guys think?

To add more "meat" to what I am saying. This would be a good example of overriding personal motives in submission to duty, or some principle. SJs don't want to shirk their duties or let people down, while NTs know the objective consequences while neglecting the personal ones.

Granted, there are likely workaholics of all types, but theoretically, SPs would overwork due to a constant crisis situation, and NFs over a need to feel significant.

I think we all share a bit of the motives for each temperament.

[Nighthawk]

My ISFJ wife and I are both very low drama ... most of the time. We both value a stable home life that is free of conflict. The fact that we're both introverts also helps us give each other the alone time that both need.

[Recoleta]

Lots of interesting responses here. Subs, I am very inclined to agree with everything you said, because I have had many similar experiences with my INTJ and ENTP friends. You're right, the problem or disconnect comes when we start talking about truth and the different motivations for our beliefs. My INTJ friend gets really hung up on epistomology and things of that nature, when really, I don't heavily concern myself with such things because I feel that for the most part I have those things worked out to the point where I am content and it all makes sense...he however, is not. Same with my ENTP friend...it's the motivations thing all over again...we just don't see eye to eye there.

It really is amazing though, because I get along with both of them remarkably well and they are 2 of my most favorite people in the world. So long as the INTJ and I don't talk about motivations and stuff, on the outside you'd think we are the same person. We pretty much enjoy the same hobbies, our tv/movie watching partterns are very similar, we're both easy-going, logical, straitforward, need alone time and reading time, we both share dry, sarcastic humor, and we both have perfectionistic tendencies. I feel there's lots of common ground we share, it's just our thought processes are very different.

One of the funniest debates/arguments I've ever had with him was on something we both concluded the same on, but did not agree on the process to get there. After awhile of back-and-forth debate I was just like, "Can we just agree to agree, and leave it at that?" :rolleyes2: :laugh:

[Uberfuhrer]

Also, both INTs and ISJs can have kind of a grumpy, stubborn, pessimistic vibe and dry/sardonic sense of humor. :wubbie:

This is true. ISTJs can be especially dry and sarcastic.

It is generally SJs who are dry and NTs who are more into wordplay. SPs are more into physical humor and NFs tend to be self-deprecating.

[Jack Flak]

It is generally SJs who are dry and NTs who are more into wordplay. SPs are more into physical humor and NFs tend to be self-deprecating.
GENERALIZATION ERROR

[EJCC]

GENERALIZATION ERROR

I'm inclined to agree... Humor usually isn't that constrained to type. I know many people who use all those methods.

I also agree with Recoleta and Substitute. See? This wasn't such a stretch of the brain after all!

Ygolo, you have an interesting point, but actually I'd say that my dad's motivation is about the same as mine (sleep=not as high on the priority list). However, his priorities are very different from mine (I might actually put that down as a J vs. P difference, since he considers getting that last thing done to be more important than getting to work on time).

Come to think of it, maybe I should have left out that anecdote. This discussion would be more fun without it. (My first thread... what do you expect?)

[Bella]

My ISFJ wife and I are both very low drama ... most of the time. We both value a stable home life that is free of conflict. The fact that we're both introverts also helps us give each other the alone time that both need.

Sounds like paradise....

[oasispaw]

My ISFJ wife and I are both very low drama ... most of the time. We both value a stable home life that is free of conflict. The fact that we're both introverts also helps us give each other the alone time that both need.

i think my intp boyfriend and i have a similar type of thing going.

also, we are both procrastinators, like staying up late, have similar humor styles, and are easy going. yeah, sure our brains work differently but that can be said about many people. i think he values neatness more than me, though from a purely practical veiwpoint... :alttongue: