So when do you stop trusting your elders and start blaming age and/or dementia?

[kyuuei]

My grandmother on my mother's side was born in 1916, which makes her a bit of 100. She came to us from Pennsylvania to live, and she did for 8 years. As she aged and got worse, our schedules proved we could not take care of her as well as she needed to be, but she insisted on staying at home with us anyways, so we let her. The doctors recently told us her body has stopped producing white blood cells.. In a crowded home like ours, if she gets sick, she could not recover from it. She was given 6 months, and we were told we ought to put her in a nursing home for 24 hour care.

We agreed and did this, but she hated the decision. She's been ruthless to us about complaining about her situation, and we do visit her at least once a week, if not more. The second visit she said there was a man running around on the rooftops and stealing guests.. Today my Aunt calls my house to tell me my Grandmother called her crying and saying she had heard on the news they were putting Rat Poison in their food at the home she was in, and that she and a bunch of people were sick and everyone's in a bustle and on the phones. We go there though... and everything seems absolutely normal. There's no police, no calls to come get her, and everyone is working just as usual.

... My aunt says my grandmother has awesome memory and there's no way she makes stories up, but I don't know what to think anymore. She's not been herself and acting very odd and rude which is very unlike her since she's usually very gracious and always very accepting and understanding. I'm just the granddaughter, I have no say into whats going on, but I see both points.

Anyone else been having trouble with their elders and put into awkward situations like this?

[heart]

Yes, my father had mild dementia for the last nine years of his life, stories like this could come out of the blue at any time, more likely when he was "sundowning" and also he had very vivid waking dreams of natural disasters and such.

Just had to always listen to him, let him vent out his feelings and always check into anything that caused alarm, it's important to realize that the people who work with them usually know their state of mind and if one is polite questions shouldn't be a cause for friction because they understand that you are simply being the person's advocate. It is important to not let the fanatisical stuff (like my father saying his letters were all full of white powder after the anthrax attacks) make one insensitive to the rest of what your person is saying (like my father saying someone came in at night and stole his glasses...they did! It was another resident)

Your grandmother may not be making anything up, but maybe has vivid daydreams that seem very real to her and she may even realize that she's unclear where reality begins and ends and this may be very scary to her and hurt her pride etc. If she's just recently been moved there, she may be worst about this at first because of the emotional shake up of the changes are a big stress and making any dementia worse temporarily.

Ask her nurses or doctors if they think she may have dementia, look on her chart, it may already say "mild dementia", it is pretty common and not that hard to work with. It doesn't automatically mean it will get worse. Try talking to her in the mornings when you need her to be at her clearest. Some days probably worse than others too.

:hug:

[Hmm]

Anyone else been having trouble with their elders and put into awkward situations like this?

I think it's very common and there's not much you can do.

[heart]

^There's always coping skills. It is just always so important to see the dementia for what it is and not discount the whole person, because usually they can be reached (especially with *mild* dementia and especially by someone who knows them well) if done at the right time and with patience.

Confusion and Daily Tasks: Tips for Dealing with Dementia (http://www.agingcare.com/Featured-Stories/94930/Confusion-and-Daily-Tasks-Tips-for-Dealing-with-Dementia.htm)

It's a very emotional topic for me. I had trouble with non-medical people not understanding the nature of mild dementia, like a sibling who was afraid to see or talk to my Dad because they couldn't bear the changes in him and I would try to explain, "Dad's still there you just have to coax him out and be patient" or people would see Dad on one of his best days and accuse me of making the whole business up! Mild dementia is not all that cut and dried.

[LadyJaye]

My best friend's grandmother had a pronounced case of dementia before she died, and it got to the point that having conversations with her were a struggle if they needed to get actual information out of her, like if she had eaten, or needed to use the bathroom. She had trouble with falling quite a lot as well. Dementia essentially shuts the person off from the rest of reality, which is terrible to watch.

[kyuuei]

heart - Right, that would make both of my grandmothers now with Dementia, my other one (on my dad's side) having very blatant signs of Alzheimers. It started when she couldnt recognize scissors, even though she's a seamstress. She doesn't recognize me at all anymore, etc. My mother asked me once if this upset me, and I asked her "Why should it? *She* didn't forget me. She knows who I am. There's just some fog in her brain mussin' up the information." The demetia never upsets me, albeit a shame to notice it.. but I didn't think my older grandmother had it until today when my Aunt called me.

She's very prideful, so its a sensitive subject telling her things.. Now that I think about it, she was always trying to say that we (my parents) were trying to take all her money and hiding her bank account information from her no matter how many times my dad went over the statements with her. I guess that should have been my first clue she was losing it a bit. Thank you for the site btw. Some of those would have been REALLY useful when she was still living with us, like the blowing bubbles thing.

Hmm - It is quite common I'm sure.. but at the same time, my parents have a very apathetic "There's nothing we can do but visit her now." attitude which is fine with me, and my aunt and uncle always hear these horror stories from their mother which make us look bad, and my grandma always tries to go through me to get things done that she wants, like moving in back at home.

LadyJaye - She has the same problems now.. she doesn't remember when she's taken pain medication, and often complains about not getting it although we've checked in with the nurse everytime we visit asking if she's been taking her pills. She'll complain suddenly of things like a nurse throwing her onto the toilet, which I'm sure wasn't the case as she bruises easily and we'd be able to see it.. but I can't say for sure either because Heart's right, sometimes they ARE telling the truth, and it's hard to tell which times are true or not.

[heart]

She'll complain suddenly of things like a nurse throwing her onto the toilet, which I'm sure wasn't the case as she bruises easily and we'd be able to see it.. but I can't say for sure either because Heart's right, sometimes they ARE telling the truth, and it's hard to tell which times are true or not.

It can be so draining. Just have to be very aware and interactive with the staff and get to know them and also come and go at odd hours to get an overall picture of what's really going on.

For me, my father's passivity was a real problem. I usually called him first thing in the morning when I woke up and last thing at night before bed to make sure no problems at his end because I knew if he had a concern or felt sick or whatever he wouldn't tell the staff. They understood this about him.

Like with the story of the nurse throwing her on the toliet, could be that the nurse slipped while helping her and Grandma fell onto the toliet (and accidents do happen even in the best of care) but then one has to ask is it a one time mistake or is it a pattern because they really needed two nurses to help her or whatever...or then again maybe it didn't happen at all and you're right the bruise issue is important to check out. If there was an incident where Grandma fell on the toliet hard enough to bruise I would have expected a phone call from the nurses explaining that there had been an accident and they were taking care of it. Because once or twice in six years an accident DID happen and the staff was very upfront about it and very concerned to make sure I was aware and that he was cared for.

So like if my father had given me a story like this and I hadn't been informed of an accident and I actually saw a bruse on him, that would have alarmed me and then I would have brought the issue up with the nurses in the most tactful way I could and if for any reason they didn't satisfy me with their answers then I would talk to the head nurse and then if that wasn't satisfactory then the administrator.

I did have to move him once. That wasn't pleasant for anyone. I realize this may be deeper than you want to talk about the subject.

Who is the health care POA for this grandmother Your parents?

Edit: The nurses told me that the adjustment for women seemed to be harder than for men, the loss of control over domestic things and such. It's got to be just such a hard adjustment. It's painful for everyone involved. :hug:

[runvardh]

I'm hoping to take classes as I age to help keep the neurons from losing their zap; but yeah, your family is going to have to accept it, as much as some won't want to. :hug:

[kyuuei]

My mother is the primary caregiver, everything to do with my Grandmother goes through her... but I am paid by my parents to take care of things around the house while they work. (My dad said it like this: Why hire a nanny, maid, and lawn mower when you can do all of those for a salary and work your own schedule?) so often I am the one dealing with the nurses and such at Park Manor (The home she's at.)

Right, everytime I talk to her, it's something else and I just don't really know what to make of it. The nurses are very understanding, because they know that to us, she hasn't always been delusional about things, so when she says something we've really taken her word for it until recently when we started to notice the decline ourselves. I always feel like I just need fresh air after I get done being there and talking to her to clear my own head.

Thanks though! I imagine it would be for her, she even hated sitting around the house when she lived here, and would wash dishes (which we'd have to re-wash when she was done lol) and fold clothes from the dryer and be upset if we somehow infringed on her house work. Not having to do anything at all now, I'm sure she isn't liking all the free time and lack of independence. I know I wouldn't.

[heart]

I am glad to hear that they (the staff) are understanding and your family seems to have a level of comfort with their professionalism and standard of care. If you can build a relationship of trust with the nurses that's going to make all so much easier.

Yes, your mental/emotional reserves will feel very drained after dealing with the issues. It can be such a one-way exchange and so many conflicting emotions and just :hug: to you on this. It is so important to find ways to recharge afterwards like you say.

If you are the one dealing with the nurses and your grandmother's daily issues on a regular basis then you are in a caregiver/patient advocate role and you might (if haven't done so) look into finding a caregiver's support group or something where you can talk and vent with people who understand what you're going through.

[Anja]

This is a tough call. I lived through five very difficult years while my parents were declining and refusing to relocate to assisted care. I consulted with various family members, spiritual counselors, a geriatric doctor, and took a short course on Alzheimer's.

Ultimately it was necessary to call in the social services who refused to commit them to me because on the particular day that mom and dad were interviewed by them they were able to name the date and the president of the US! Incredible.

Their mental faculties, as they so often do, would leave and return on any given day so often they appeared rational.

Dad was driving on a revoked license, often on the sidewalk. He nearly ran over me in a parking lot one day.

They were both falling, sometimes outdoors in the winter. Not going to their doctor's appointments and their Meals on Wheels were piling up on the front porch because they had barricaded themselves in their home. Garbage was piling up on the back porch and different family members were taking turns driving 120 miles to clean it out once a week because they sent anyone away who wasn't familiar to them.

They were aware of their decline and were very frightened I believe, but they responded to efforts to help them with anger and refusal.

Yet they'd call me from 60 miles away to bring them bread and milk when they lived two blocks from the grocery store.

The county refused, as I guess they often do now, and this is unfortunate. But they are afraid of law suits and my mother had threatened to sue them if they took any action. My parents threatened me more than once about "interferring" with their independence.

It was very much like having two toddlers out there somewhere in the world. And I just hoped that they wouldn't run over someone or set their house on fire.

The county sheriff and the county nurse both told me I'd just have to wait for the crisis.

Finally Mom fell and broke her hip and we were able to move her from the hospital directly into a care center. Dad went along to "take care of her."

He's now died and it was difficult to watch how swiftly he went downhill in the care center, mourning his independence. He was dead in three months.

Mother now is quite physically healthy but her awareness of self and others and surroundings still comes and goes. I've learned it best not to contradict her or question her too much as it agitates her. I just go with the flow. We laugh a lot - me about some of the absurd things she says and she laughing along with me. It works.

When she tells me about the woman who came into her room and stole her cashew I sympathize, ask her what she did and travel along with her while she relives something or other from her past. Later I'll check it out with her social worker and there is often still a grain of truth. She had offered the woman some and the other old soul had thought that meant she could take the whole can home! It got straightened out.

I see that the staff is pretty observant and seems to know her habits and what is going on.

Here's a sort of INFPy story:

I brought my cat to visit her. Samantha sat in her lap for a while and then sneaked under her bed for a brief nap. When I was ready to go home stubborn Samantha would not come out from under the bed. So I slid it away from the wall, got between the wall and bed, down on my hands and knees, rump in the air and said loudly and very sternly, "You come out from there RIGHT NOW. I'm taking you home."

The words were scarcely out of my mouth and the door opened. A nurse was checking to see what was going on.

I presented quite a sight and initially the nurse thought my mom had crawled under the bed. All three of us just lost it!

Good to know how attendant they are. Should be, she pays $4,000 of her own money every month for the same thing others have paid by the county! And that's the rate for someone who is ambulatory and able to take her own baths and feed herself. Good grief.

[Anja]

Bless your heart, kyueei. I hope that we all have somebody left by the time we get there. Hardly anyone wants to do that kind of care anymore.

[Anja]

Yeah, heart mentions a caregiver's support group. If you can find the time. VINE offers excellent ones here. That's where I took the classes and we were a mixed age group.

Voluntary Interfaith Network. Don't know if you have them there.

[heart]

Good to know how attendant they are. Should be, she pays $4,000 of her own money every month for the same thing others have paid by the county! And that's the rate for someone who is ambulatory and able to take her own baths and feed herself. Good grief.

As far as I know, in the USA this is the case for everyone if they have their own money to pay, they pay and if they don't then medicaid pays. My father paid his own money for his care, we were on "spend down" when he passed on.

There are complicated rules about like 90 days past a hospitalization medicare pays for certain things related to that stay, but most people have to pay for their care until they reach a certain level of poverty. It is just the way it is.

I think support group is very important. If I hadn't had my sister, who understood so much of what I was going through, It would have been so much worse. Support groups usually meet once a month or they are online and you can find people to email and/or phone.

[kyuuei]

Thanks for the stories, Anja. I knew other people had to deal with it, but it's always assuring to see the same traits happening to others. As the saying goes, Misery loves company.

I also do hope that someone wants to take care of me when I am older XD too often do I hear very apathetic youngsters saying "Just throw them in the home when they're incapable." It's a bit heartbreaking to hear.

[heart]

I always hear this "dump them off at the home" but it's not the real way it goes for most folks. You're constantly back and forth from the facility and constantly in phone contact.

[kyuuei]

I always hear this "dump them off at the home" but it's not the real way it goes for most folks. You're constantly back and forth from the facility and constantly in phone contact.

Such is the case for us. We have to bring her new clothes all the time to wear, we re-fill and take up her perscriptions and medication ourselves, and they're always calling us to inform us if she didn't take her pills, or if they think she's getting sick or refuses to eat. If I'm not there at least once a week to do these tasks and errands, I think someone's slacking or something's wrong lol.

[heart]

:hug: for Kyuuei


Anja have you ever seen: I Never Sang For My Father with Gene Hackman? :hug:

[kyuuei]

<Revels in glee from the hugs!>

[whatever]

My aunt had a disorder that worked like a super fast version of alzheimer's- and she started to insist that things that were obviously NOT true were indeed true. I remember sitting over Christmas dinner one year when she told the family 8 different stories about her life :doh:

We really knew that she was slipping when she asked for my dad to come over and see if he could help her to get her cat to eat, since he hadn't for a few days. He was really dead :shock: Everyone kept a really close watch on her then, but she refused to go into a home since she said that there was absolutley nothing wrong with her.

Not long after that she fell and broke her hip and was admitted into the hospital. They fixed her hip, but she refused to ever walk again, claiming that if she walked the other people in her wing would trip her. She also claimed that the nurses were stealing from her and that we were keeping her in the hospital in order to sell all of her belongings (not true- not that she had anything worth selling if we DID want to :dry:) Since she refused to walk, she went into a home, and from there into a home for the mentally ill elderly, where she died (certainly not from mistreatment). My identity was one of the first she forgot, so she always would ask other relatives in an accusing manner why they were bringing a stranger into the room- I was not welcome.

So yes- the senile can be pretty tough to deal with. The best you can do is just realize that at a certain point they are no longer who they once were *shrug*

[kyuuei]

My grandmothers, both of them, swear we're robbing them blind. I told her one time "Grandma, when we have a plasma TV and Walker Texas Ranger can shake our walls with surround sound, you have grounds to assume we've taken from you.. We're eating Ramen again for dinner."

[Udog]

My warmest wishes go out to you, kyuuei.

I've noticed the monetary paranoia from my grandmother with Alzheimer's, and understand it to be common. My mother and I have both spent a healthy chunk of our money towards her care (she lives with my mom, but we have to pay a caretaker while my mom is at work). Yet, because we are the ones caring for her, and the ones that have to occasionally upset her by not allowing her to have candy, whenever she gets to stressing about money we are often accused of taking it from her. Then, she praises the family across the country as being saints... the same family that tried to steal her house away from her.

In other words, she is stressed about money and you are convenient targets. Try your best to not take it personally; it usually breezes over.

[Hmm]

In other words, she is stressed about money and you are convenient targets. Try your best to not take it personally; it usually breezes over.

Yes :yes:

Or it may not breeze over but you still should try not to take it personally. Think about it this way... she does not have a choice in the matter because she does not have all of her faculties, but you do, and you should use them to help calm her and/or the rest of your family.

[Anja]

No, heart, I haven't seen "I Never Sang For My Father" but have heard it is good.

One I saw which left an impression on me was "Da" with Martin Sheen. He returns to his homeland in Ireland. IIRC his father is already dead but he's working through some of his old issues with his dad.

It's a good idea to get some of this done, if possible before they are no longer around. People who have had parents who died with some things left unsaid have a tougher time with grief, I think.

I only had one thing with my Dad and we got it done. Before he died he lived with me for two weeks. He had never struck me but for once. And pretty hard. I'd stuck my tongue out at him and he chased me and spanked me.

I was tiptoeing on how to bring it up without something defensive happening. It was always difficult to talk to Dad about anything with emotional content. I said, "You know, Dad, in all the time we've been together you only hit me once. Pretty good job we did."

He was silent for a moment and then he said, "Oh, Anja. I hope I didn't hurt you." Gosh. That was one of the neatest things he ever said to me. Made everything all better.

Yeah, Whatever, that not knowing you stuff is pretty strange. It's almost like losing them before they're gone.

The thing is death is something we're all going to do and do alone no matter how many people are around. And I've appreciated being in a few people's lives while they were dying. I watch and learn something for when it's my turn. Sometimes what I learn is what I don't want to do!

I used to hide things from my parents thinking that they were too fragile to handle them. Hah. Old people look frail but by the time they've gotten to seventy or eighty, they're damn tough. And dying from disease or old age is not an easy task.

Sigh.

[Anja]

Here's an observation that came to mind as I read here today. The care-taking of the elderly task often falls to a female. Sometimes not even a blood relative but a wife of a son.

And often there is that one sibling who has stayed close to home who needs to handle all the inconveniences and expense of the care. And there are plenty of those.

Then the siblings from afar will challenge what's being done back home, send instructions and orders and, in general, complain how things are being handled. But they aren't the ones doing the hard work.

I've talked to a quite a few primary caretakers who have this problem. One more thing to deal with.

[kyuuei]

Udog - I think you have something there with the target thing. I guess it's easier to attack someone that isn't going to get pissed and hate you afterwards than some stranger.. It's a safe, easy way of venting their anger and confusion. It never bothered me when Grandma was mad at me.. but it did bother me that she'd ask me to go behind my parents back to take her to the bank. Like, even when I was younger, she'd make requests like that.. Obviously I'd have to make an excuse as to why I could not, but it made me upset to be put in that situation.

Anja - i've noticed this as well since I *am* the one close at home! My sister and brother are free to run off and do whatever, and I have always been the one relied upon to come through for my family as a whole.. but then they get upset when I do things my way XD.

My aunt and uncle are prime examples of those whom complain. I've had to even tell them straight up "If you don't like it, take Grandma right now to your house, and have your way of it all." Of course they backed down on the offer, making my eye twitch.

[Anja]

Good for you, Kyuuei. I'm an only child and all the aunts and uncles are dead so there were no family to criticize me. But for several years, while Mom and Dad were still at home, I'd get about a call a month from townspeople who complained just short of saying I was a bad daughter for leaving them to survive on their own down there.

I finally said that I couldn't influence my parents any further and would they please take their concerns directly to my parents themselves.

That ended the phone calls!

[Udog]

And often there is that one sibling who has stayed close to home who needs to handle all the inconveniences and expense of the care. And there are plenty of those.

Then the siblings from afar will challenge what's being done back home, send instructions and orders and, in general, complain how things are being handled. But they aren't the ones doing the hard work.


Yes! It's not quite what happened to us, but I've seen it happen that way. In our case, after my grandfather, the primary caretaker, passed away the remaining family pretty much said, "So when are you taking her?" They wouldn't even care for her for 1 or 2 weeks so we could rearrange my mothers house to make room for her, and said she could go into a home for those 2 weeks. Naturally, we took my grandmother home with us.

Yet, everything else you say is true. Family tends to run away or dump the responsibility, yet feel they have an equal say in the care.

A funny side effect: the family that lives far away becomes almost angelic. I've seen this a couple of times, both with my grandmother and with a friend of mine going through a somewhat similar situation. First, my grandmother misses them... then on top of that it's easy for family to be on their bestest behavior when they only talk to her or see her for only a few hours at a time, sometimes many months apart.

Udog - I think you have something there with the target thing. I guess it's easier to attack someone that isn't going to get pissed and hate you afterwards than some stranger.. It's a safe, easy way of venting their anger and confusion. It never bothered me when Grandma was mad at me.. but it did bother me that she'd ask me to go behind my parents back to take her to the bank. Like, even when I was younger, she'd make requests like that.. Obviously I'd have to make an excuse as to why I could not, but it made me upset to be put in that situation.

Actually, with dementia the answer is often much simpler than that. They are aggravated, and you are right there in front of them. Lacking the facility to go much deeper than that, they connect you with their mood.

Now, in your case your grandma isn't as far gone as mine so this may or may not apply to you. It's something to ask yourself, though.

Also, my grandma does very similar things with money and other things. She's become incredibly devious, and I wonder if it's the Alzheimer's, or if she was always like this and has only recently lost her cunning to pull it off without being caught.

My aunt and uncle are prime examples of those whom complain. I've had to even tell them straight up "If you don't like it, take Grandma right now to your house, and have your way of it all." Of course they backed down on the offer, making my eye twitch.


Actually, that's the key! My mother and I have had to play that card a couple of times when aunt was getting out of control, and it always brings her back down to reality.

[heart]

Also, my grandma does very similar things with money and other things. She's become incredibly devious, and I wonder if it's the Alzheimer's, or if she was always like this and has only recently lost her cunning to pull it off without being caught.

I think it is just loss of inhibitions. Comes out in a lot of ways. Like anxiety etc.

[Udog]

I think it is just loss of inhibitions. Comes out in a lot of ways. Like anxiety etc.

Good answer... I find myself agreeing.

[Anja]

I think so too. When my dad was in hospice he tried in secret to pay the nurse $50. to get him out of there! Funny and sad.

This is a whole other thread but that "absent one becomes angelic stuff" is something you see in divorces a lot as well. The dad runs off with another woman. But all the kids want to think that he's the good guy and mom's the problem.

I see some of that with my mom and my son. She totally glorifies him but he rarely goes to see her or calls her. (Actually I think he avoids how much it affects him to see her old and "strange.") Maybe it's a defense against feeling like they have been abandoned by someone they love?

[Udog]

I think that's part of it. When I found out how deep into Alzheimer's my grandmother was (my grandfather covered for her, so none of us had any real idea), I basically had to come to terms with the fact that the grandma I knew was no longer with us. It was very difficult, but it makes dealing with her sooo much easier now. Plus, when my grandmother shows signs of her old self it's a wonderful surprise!