Are Intelligent Men Threatened by Intelligent Women?

[CaptainChick]

`

I think that the answer is yes, absolutely, yes they are.

The acquisition of information/knowledge amongst human beings should be an intrinsically motivated goal while the sharing of information/knowledge between human beings should be the result of an altruistic intent on behalf of the distributor.

The reason why I value the scientific method is due to the fact that it more or less embodies my personal philosophies on what I view to be man's inherent desire to increase his level of consciousness fostered and facilitated by his undying search to obtain and comprehend an intelligible catalog of information/knowledge.

Why are people threatened by intelligent and, or insightful people?

I honestly don't get it.

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE BEING TAUGHT NEW THINGS AS WELL AS HAVING MY PREVIOUSLY HELD BELIEFS BE CHALLENGED.

It is never about the person, it is always about the "truth" of the matter, or the reality of the situation being discussed or disputed. I am concerned with the content not the person who is acting as a vessel for communication.

I try to use my intelligence as a means to accurately assess the world and to inform others by sharing what I know. I do not use it as a means to selfishly, and self-righteously horde information as if it was exclusively mine to have and to own, nor do I use my intelligence as a means to intimidate and put down others in order to gain a (false) sense of superiority.

Sorry, tangent. :/

The point is this:

Most intelligent men suck at having their ideas challenged by a women.

And most intelligent men have incredible difficulty separating their egos from what should be their non-subjective pursuit of acquiring accurate information.

Why do men feel so belittled and threatened when a woman happens to know more than they do in a particular academic field/arena?

Hmm, to be continued...

[BerberElla]

Are Intelligent Men Threatened by Intelligent Women?

They wouldn't be intelligent then, so no. :newwink:

[6sticks]

lolno

[Oberon]

`

I think that the answer is yes, absolutely, yes they are.



It depends. If the intelligent woman is aggressive and has something to prove to every bright guy around her, then yes. As far as I'm concerned she can go score points on somebody who gives a sh!t.

If on the other hand she's more collaborational than confrontational, then I welcome her company wholeheartedly. I can always use help from people who are smarter than me.

Captain, I like you okay here on the board, but in real life I'd flee screaming from you in a matter of hours.

EDIT: Maybe minutes.

[Mycroft]

Captain Chick, I'm afraid I'd have to agree with Oberon. You are clearly an intelligent person but you are also a rather confrontational person. I think this combination of traits has led to experiences which color your estimation.

[heart]

Why do men feel so belittled and threatened when a woman happens to know more than they do in a particular academic field/arena?

My husband gets a kick out of my history and biology geekism. He did from the start. *shrug* but then I'm not really like outta this world brainy either so maybe it doesn't apply. ;)

[cafe]

Not usually.

[FDG]

I will not respond positively to confrontational behavior both from men and women. So as some others posters have said, this could be the root cause of the issue.

[bluemonday]

`

I think that the answer is yes, absolutely, yes they are.

The acquisition of information/knowledge amongst human beings should be an intrinsically motivated goal while the sharing of information/knowledge between human beings should be the result of an altruistic intent on behalf of the distributor.

The reason why I value the scientific method is due to the fact that it more or less embodies my personal philosophies on what I view to be man's inherent desire to increase his level of consciousness fostered and facilitated by his undying search to obtain and comprehend an intelligible catalog of information/knowledge.

Why are people threatened by intelligent and, or insightful people?

I honestly don't get it.

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE BEING TAUGHT NEW THINGS AS WELL AS HAVING MY PREVIOUSLY HELD BELIEFS BE CHALLENGED.

It is never about the person, it is always about the "truth" of the matter, or the reality of the situation being discussed or disputed. I am concerned with the content not the person who is acting as a vessel for communication.

I try to use my intelligence as a means to accurately assess the world and to inform others by sharing what I know. I do not use it as a means to selfishly, and self-righteously horde information as if it was exclusively mine to have and to own, nor do I use my intelligence as a means to intimidate and put down others in order to gain a (false) sense of superiority.

Sorry, tangent. :/

The point is this:

Most intelligent men suck at having their ideas challenged by a women.

And most intelligent men have incredible difficulty separating their egos from what should be their non-subjective pursuit of acquiring accurate information.

Why do men feel so belittled and threatened when a woman happens to know more than they do in a particular academic field/arena?

Hmm, to be continued...

That's a rather categorical rant. Whether a man feels threatened by a woman or a woman feels threatened by a man has little if anything to do with how intelligent either party is. It is a question of self esteem. To be threatened by something which is intrinsically harmless is both unintelligent and irrational. Are intelligent people sometimes irrational? Not infrequently.

[pure_mercury]

I am not threatened by intelligent women, but I also feel as if I am not around highly intelligent women (or men) IRL on a regular basis. Hopefully, this will change as I get into the adult working world. The one time I was in life, I was attending (occasionally, when not stoned) an Ivy League university, and I seemed to get along with women just as well or better than the males.

Perhaps I was threatening to intelligent women? I was also very intelligent, but I was a crazy partier and rather intense emotionally.

[Silently Honest]

lolno

+1

[runvardh]

Only if her subconscious lack of self-esteem causes her to constantly compete with me. I'm more turned on my smart girls, but I want to be loved - not faught with.

[Usehername]

I've seen males confused or nervous regarding how to socially interact with an intelligent female they're in competition with; they respect her and aren't threatened so much as befuddled because they don't think ribbing her or throwing around typical friendly put-downs like they would toward males would be appropriate.

That's way different than threatened, though.

[Jack Flak]

Re: OP: No. I enjoy the company of very intelligent people, male or female.

I feel threatened by stupid people, because at any moment, they could do something stupid.

There is, however, an even more dangerous being: one of average intelligence who believes they are incredibly insightful. DO NOT WANT.

[miggies]

I think that the main reason that us men feel threatened by women with brains is because it has been drilled into our heads that women are inferior to us, this all started back in the cave man days when the two sexes battles for dominance over the other and of course the man won at that point due to brute force and also the fact that the man was the hunter in "clan" so women have been suppressed since the dawn of time simply due to the face of there size and strength compared to men...that is until the last hundred years where women have started to show that they are a force to be reckoned with in the intellect areas cause that all they had going for them was to sit at home, cook clean and read books so that they are able to assist there children with there school work while the respected father of the house hold is out bringing home the proverbial bacon.

studies are showing that because of the current changes and the less need for brute force in society that the roles that both men and women grew up/forced into are changing and more and more men are becoming the stay at home "mom" and women are becoming the company head figures due to there lets work it out method where as with men in the business field its all about lets drive them into the ground then buy them out when there company is worth nothing...its a sad world we live in :cry:

[Bella]

I think an intelligent man with some measure of depth can't help but enjoy intelligent woman.

[Silently Honest]

Re: OP: No. I enjoy the company of very intelligent people, male or female.

I feel threatened by stupid people, because at any moment, they could do something stupid.

There is, however, an even more dangerous being: one of average intelligence who believes they are incredibly insightful. DO NOT WANT.

You won a place in my sig today.

[FDG]

I think that the main reason that us men feel threatened by women with brains is because it has been drilled into our heads that women are inferior to us

It hasn't really been drilled into mine, really. The only thing that I'm pretty sure women are (on average) inferior at, is maximal strenght, but as far as intelligence goes nothing was said to me

[runvardh]

I think an intelligent man with some measure of depth can't help but enjoy intelligent woman.

Yup :drool: :wubbie: :devil:

[Lateralus]

`

I think that the answer is yes, absolutely, yes they are.
I think you're absolutely wrong. Insecure men are threatened by intelligent women.

[ptgatsby]

Are Intelligent Men Threatened by more Intelligent Women?


Odds are, yes. At least as far as mating goes, which seems to spill over.

However, you shouldn't generalise this to the whole population - at most, it is a bias towards it.

[booyalab]

I think intelligent men are annoyed by intelligent women who are in love with the smell of their farts, and annoyed may look like threatened to said women who could never do anything that isn't brilliant and wonderful. But my farts aren't brilliant and wonderful, so what do I know?

[ajblaise]

I am not threatened by intelligent women in the slightest.

However, I can see a man who perceives, even if he won't admit it to himself, a women who is smarter than him as threatening. It's similar to a man being threatened by another man who is more intelligent than himself, not all about gender.

[colmena]

I have been, therefore I am not an intelligent man.

[Anja]

The word "threatened" implies to me something more primal than an intelligence issue. I'd think that anyone who felt "threatened" by another human of any sex about anything other than personal physical safety is operating under an undeveloped coping system.

So I see it less a matter of "who" or "what" and more a matter of "how." How do we live comfortably with others with more developed/different skills and coping strategies?

[SolitaryPenguin]

I rely on an intelligent woman because I am an idiot most of the time. I say be smarter than me at everything, it is less I have to think about while I am chasing shiny objects.

[Uberfuhrer]

It depends on the intelligent woman in question.

I'd probably be more threatened by a woman who knows more on a subject that I'm passionate about, but if she knows more about a subject that doesn't interest me, chances are I wouldn't be as threatened. Of course, there are exceptions.

Although if a woman I'm not attracted to knows more than me on a subject that interests me, I probably wouldn't think as much of it.

If I find a woman I'm attracted to, for whatever reason, I have a habit of being rebellious against her interests, sometimes even if her interests are shared with me. I'm not exactly sure why, though.

[whatever]

From my experience, some are and some aren't. It just depends on thier level of confidence and maturity and it depends on the manner in which the woman slings her brain around (confrontational manners are not generally favored, but then again I don't like for intelligent men to be confrontational intellectually with me either :dry:).

[Nocapszy]

I think that the answer is yes, absolutely, yes they are.I'm assuming you're talking about yourself being one of the intelligent women who threatens intelligent men.

Out of curiosity MissChick, (you've been demoted), has my conduct toward you indicated anything even reminiscent of feeling threatened?

[Hirsch63]

From my experience, some are and some aren't. It just depends on thier level of confidence and maturity and it depends on the manner in which the woman slings her brain around (confrontational manners are not generally favored, but then again I don't like for intelligent men to be confrontational intellectually with me either :dry:).

I agree here...nothing is more disappointing than finding out you are attracted to a nitwit:doh: Intelligent women are very sexy especially when their are passionate about a field where they can be fully expressed. But this would seem true about either gender...just a well developed human is nice, y'know?

[miggies]

It hasn't really been drilled into mine, really. The only thing that I'm pretty sure women are (on average) inferior at, is maximal strenght, but as far as intelligence goes nothing was said to me


one shoule read the full comment


"that is until the last hundred years where women have started to show that they are a force to be reckoned with in the intellect areas cause that all they had going for them was to sit at home, cook clean and read books so that they are able to assist there children with there school work while the respected father of the house hold is out bringing home the proverbial bacon."

:doh: :hi: :cheese: :newwink:

[Firelie]

I've only had stupid men feel threatened by my intelligence.

I think the first few responses were dead on -- the guys you're encountering are probably more threatened by your confrontational style than your intelligence.

[disregard]

If someone has an imposing nature and an aura that communicates that they value something (intelligence, money, popularity, talent) in a major way, the awareness that they may be sizing you up can be threatening.

[Udog]

If a man defines himself solely on his intelligence, he may feel threatened by a woman who may be more intelligent than him. This is doubly so if he believes that men are smarter than women.

[FDG]

one shoule read the full comment


"that is until the last hundred years where women have started to show that they are a force to be reckoned with in the intellect areas cause that all they had going for them was to sit at home, cook clean and read books so that they are able to assist there children with there school work while the respected father of the house hold is out bringing home the proverbial bacon."

:doh: :hi: :cheese: :newwink:

I still don't understand the point...

[Lithium]

To the question, No. But it bothers me when an intelligent girl isn't willing to take on board other views due to their own arrogance.

[bluemonday]

If a man defines himself solely on his intelligence, he may feel threatened by a woman who may be more intelligent than him. This is doubly so if he believes that men are smarter than women.

Good point. Emasculating.

although if he believes that then he must be sufficiently delusional not to recognise a more intelligent female when he meets one

[Jack Flak]

"that is until the last hundred years where women have started to show that they are a force to be reckoned with in the intellect areas cause that all they had going for them was to sit at home, cook clean and read books so that they are able to assist there children with there school work while the respected father of the house hold is out bringing home the proverbial bacon."
Sexist. I seem to remember historical accounts of intellectual excellence in women, and men recognizing this, going back as far as any records, despite any cultural pressure to the contrary.

[Bella]

I wonder if a really dumb man would be bothered by an intelligent woman? Probably not. He probably doesn't realise how dumb he is and how smart she is.

[EffEmDoubleyou]

I'd say that perhaps some intelligent men are threatened by intelligent women. But I'd also say that those men are probably intimidated by skilled/accomplished/ambitious women in general. It's probably a paternalistic POV and not intelligence itself that is the culprit.

That said, I don't think it's warranted to make a blanket statement that "intelligent men are threatened by intelligent women". There are a multitude of factors that could inform why a man feels threatened by a woman, including a giant chip on the woman's shoulder. There's a difference between an intelligent woman and an intelligent woman who is hellbent on proving she's intelligent every waking minute.

When someone reacts negatively to us, I think it's natural that we attribute that negativity to a sore spot; an aspect of ourselves that we feel underappreciated or under attack for. i.e., "He's threatened by me, it must be because I'm so smart." It's similar to that old joke, "Oh, it's cause I'm black, right?"

So in the end, I think that perhaps some intelligent women who feel society doesn't want or expect them to be smart are always on the lookout for someone who is going to be intimidated by them. And in this way, when someone reacts negatively to them, that's the first place they go.

[disregard]

Sexist. I seem to remember historical accounts of intellectual excellence in women, and men recognizing this, going back as far as any records, despite any cultural pressure to the contrary.

Miggies is right. You seem to be forgetting about the woman question (which wouldn't have existed if their excellence had always been recognised).

[Jack Flak]

Miggies is right. You seem to be forgetting about the woman question (which wouldn't have existed if their excellence had always been recognised).
Bah. I didn't say anyone was wrong. I said that it's sexist to state that women are only recently showing they're an intellectual force to be reckoned with, hence my bolding of the phrase.

[bluemonday]

I wonder if a really dumb man would be bothered by an intelligent woman? Probably not. He probably doesn't realise how dumb he is and how smart she is.

:D men who hit on me are supersmart or superstupid
sadly the latter outnumber the former by about ten to one

[Grayscale]

terrified


edit: more seriously, i find genuinely intelligent people in any form delightful, it's the self-righteous and pseudo-intellectual i can do without

[MacGuffin]

Nope, I'm turned on by it. (notice I and every man that answered similar believes they are, in fact, intelligent)


There is, however, an even more dangerous being: one of average intelligence who believes they are incredibly insightful. DO NOT WANT.
+1

[miggies]

Sexist. I seem to remember historical accounts of intellectual excellence in women, and men recognizing this, going back as far as any records, despite any cultural pressure to the contrary.



the comment was based on the fact that women of the last hundred years have decided that there not going to sit back and take shit any more, i didn't dismiss that there have been inteligent women through out history dating back futher, it was just a point that prior to that most women feared for there lives if most of the men in power of any nature found out that they had interests other then the common "house" wife, and it wasn't a sexist comment

[Jack Flak]

i didn't dismiss that there have been inteligent women through out history dating back futher
Silence Dogood comes to mind. Incredible.

[FDG]

Btw, I don't really "like" very ambitious women. I am not very socially ambitious (although I wouldn't mind making decent money) myself, and I wouldn't want a girlfriend that preferred her career/studies/whatever to doing things with me.

[runvardh]

Feared for their lives or used their brains to prod their weaker minded husbands into things. Smart girls also seem to be pretty good at hiding it when the need to.

[miggies]

Silence Dogood comes to mind. Incredible.


If you also read the full statement i had made and the history of Silence Dogood you will notice Unfortunately for her would-be suitors, Silence Dogood did not exist. She was the invention of sixteen year-old Benjamin Franklin, who was working at the time as an apprentice to his older brother, James, a Boston printer.

[EffEmDoubleyou]

Silence Dogood comes to mind. Incredible.

Hahahaha. Nice one.

[Jack Flak]

If you also read the full statement i had made and the history of Silence Dogood you will notice Unfortunately for her would-be suitors, Silence Dogood did not exist. She was the invention of sixteen year-old Benjamin Franklin, who was working at the time as an apprentice to his older brother, James, a Boston printer.
It appears then, that I stand corrected. Women have just become an intellectual force only recently. *serious face*

[Firelie]

It appears then, that I stand corrected. Women have just become an intellectual force only recently. *serious face*

The evolution of women's brains into thinking machines started around the time we gained the right to vote. .. ... ... ..... ... Yep.

[Alpha Prime]

The key issue here is insecurity, not intelligence.

Personally, I love it when a woman can throw the ball back, curved. Go figure!

[booyalab]

Women were actually better represented in academia in the decades before the Feminist movement "rescued" them from male repression.

The Grand Fraud: Affirmative Action for Women by Thomas Sowell -- Capitalism Magazine (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2639)


Women had achieved a higher representation in higher education and in many professions in earlier decades of the twentieth century than they had when the feminist movement became prominent in the 1960s.



The percentage of master's degrees and doctoral degrees that went to women was never as great during any year of the 1950s or 1960s as that percentage was back in 1930. The percentage of women who were listed in "Who's Who in America" was twice as high in 1902 as in 1958.

Women were also better represented in higher education and in a number of professions in the 1920s or 1930s than they were in the 1950s or 1960s, though none of this fits the fashionable fairy tales of the feminists.

Women received 34 percent of the bachelor's degrees in 1920 but only 24 percent in 1950. In mathematics, women's share of doctorates declined from 15 percent to 5 percent over a span of decades, and in economics from 10 percent to 2 percent.


What really happened was that, as the birth rate fell from the late nineteenth century into the 1930s, women rose in the professions and in the postgraduate education necessary for these professions. Then, as women began marrying younger and having more children during the years of the baby boom, their representation in both the professions and in the education that led to those professions fell.

[Jack Flak]

The evolution of women's brains into thinking machines started around the time we gained the right to vote. .. ... ... ..... ... Yep.

Since some have apparently been outclassed by my incredible humor:

My mention of Silence Dogood, and my next post, were unbelievably funny, and not serious at all.

[dissonance]

`

I think that the answer is yes, absolutely, yes they are.

The acquisition of information/knowledge amongst human beings should be an intrinsically motivated goal while the sharing of information/knowledge between human beings should be the result of an altruistic intent on behalf of the distributor.

The reason why I value the scientific method is due to the fact that it more or less embodies my personal philosophies on what I view to be man's inherent desire to increase his level of consciousness fostered and facilitated by his undying search to obtain and comprehend an intelligible catalog of information/knowledge.

Why are people threatened by intelligent and, or insightful people?

I honestly don't get it.

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE BEING TAUGHT NEW THINGS AS WELL AS HAVING MY PREVIOUSLY HELD BELIEFS BE CHALLENGED.

It is never about the person, it is always about the "truth" of the matter, or the reality of the situation being discussed or disputed. I am concerned with the content not the person who is acting as a vessel for communication.

I try to use my intelligence as a means to accurately assess the world and to inform others by sharing what I know. I do not use it as a means to selfishly, and self-righteously horde information as if it was exclusively mine to have and to own, nor do I use my intelligence as a means to intimidate and put down others in order to gain a (false) sense of superiority.

Sorry, tangent. :/

The point is this:

Most intelligent men suck at having their ideas challenged by a women.

And most intelligent men have incredible difficulty separating their egos from what should be their non-subjective pursuit of acquiring accurate information.

Why do men feel so belittled and threatened when a woman happens to know more than they do in a particular academic field/arena?

Hmm, to be continued...

I know that I'm personally more attracted to intelligent female friends than intelligent male ones.

I love being proven wrong by women. It's fun.

It's certainly true that there is sexism that exists in the intellectual world.

But since I know this thread was inspired by me, I feel the need to defend myself. I think you're trippin'. Projection?

The only person that's brought up gender as a factor is you.

It's really the sense of superiority and entitlement that bothers me about anyone, no matter what their intelligence is or what gender they are. And the need to assert that superiority.

[Anonymous]

Intelligent women who I also get along well with are great. Not only do I like them, but they can also teach me stuff. Not threatened by them unless they're pointing a gun at me or something.

[kuranes]

My idea of not being threatened by smart women was subtly planted there by a smart woman, but I now think of it as my idea. :)

[Tallulah]

You also might be encountering people who aren't all that interested in discussing Serious Issues That Plague Our Society all the time. I got really bored with all that in grad school, saw the futility of discussing it at length with others, and now try to avoid it when I can. If someone's particular brand of intelligence lends itself to debating hot button issues, I tend to not really engage with that person. I'll come back and talk to them when there's a subject we both like to talk about.

I have found guys that like my intelligence quite a lot, and I've also found others that seemed a bit intimidated. We've all seen really intelligent guys who choose to mate with the airhead or the Susie Homemaker type. No way to fully account for personal taste, though. If that's the type a guy likes, I certainly don't want to try and change his mind. An intelligent woman could only lose in that scenario.

I think Oberon made a good point, though. Intelligent men generally like intelligent women if they are on the same team. If the relationship feels like a boxing match all the time, it could be draining, but collaboration is fun.

[runvardh]

Collaboration is fun; intelligent collaboration turns me on.

[dissonance]

^yup.

I even like a little bit of combativeness. As long as it's playful.

[EffEmDoubleyou]

I think Oberon made a good point, though. Intelligent men generally like intelligent women if they are on the same team. If the relationship feels like a boxing match all the time, it could be draining, but collaboration is fun.

+1. Nobody likes to be in a meat grinder all the time. Part of the joy of having a girlfriend or boyfriend is that you don't have to be "on" all the time and you can just be. If your refuge stops being a refuge, then it can be very tiring. That's not to say you can't discuss serious issues. I just don't think it's fun to always feel like you're squaring off on Meet The Press with your confidant and partner.

[dissonance]

My last relationship with an ENTP was a pretty good blend of combativeness and collaboration. I knew when it came down to it, we were on the same team, but mock-fighting about an intellectual issue was our way of flirting.

She loved to "win" arguments against me in front of other people. It was fine; I wasn't threatened in the least. (Mostly because we could out argue anyone else anyways :))

[Edahn]

Some but not all men assess their self-worth by the quality of their intellect. Anything that threatens that will be met with resistance. With a woman, I think, men are more likely to be a bit bossy and try to call a bluff. Maybe.

[MacGuffin]

ntelligent men generally like intelligent women if they are on the same team. If the relationship feels like a boxing match all the time, it could be draining, but collaboration is fun.

Let's write MBTI-oriented Battlestar Galactica fanfic! :wubbie:

[Jack Flak]

+1. Nobody likes to be in a meat grinder all the time. Part of the joy of having a girlfriend or boyfriend is that you don't have to be "on" all the time and you can just be. If your refuge stops being a refuge, then it can be very tiring. That's not to say you can't discuss serious issues. I just don't think it's fun to always feel like you're squaring off on Meet The Press with your confidant and partner.
A perfectly stated point, and why I don't specifically look for intellectuals as date material. Brilliance in itself is...brilliant, but if you're both "practicing intellectuals," the potentially chronic disagreement may prove disadvantageous.

[particularsolution]

insecure people who place their value on their intelligence will be threatened by other intelligent people, regardless of sex.

[Tallulah]

Let's write MBTI-oriented Battlestar Galactica fanfic! :wubbie:

w00t!

A perfectly stated point, and why I don't specifically look for intellectuals as date material. Brilliance in itself is...brilliant, but if you're both "practicing intellectuals," the potentially chronic disagreement may prove disadvantageous.

Yeah, it's a fine line. I think it's best to find someone who matches your intelligence, but doesn't have something to prove. I think I'd run screaming from anyone who called himself an intellectual, though. Those are usually the guys that tell you how to think, make a point of saying that they're intelligent, and make you address them by their titles, if they have one. Douchebags, in other words.

Martoon needs to weigh in on this discussion. He has a good theory about intelligence.

[Little Linguist]

`

I think that the answer is yes, absolutely, yes they are.

The acquisition of information/knowledge amongst human beings should be an intrinsically motivated goal while the sharing of information/knowledge between human beings should be the result of an altruistic intent on behalf of the distributor.

The reason why I value the scientific method is due to the fact that it more or less embodies my personal philosophies on what I view to be man's inherent desire to increase his level of consciousness fostered and facilitated by his undying search to obtain and comprehend an intelligible catalog of information/knowledge.

Why are people threatened by intelligent and, or insightful people?

I honestly don't get it.

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE BEING TAUGHT NEW THINGS AS WELL AS HAVING MY PREVIOUSLY HELD BELIEFS BE CHALLENGED.

It is never about the person, it is always about the "truth" of the matter, or the reality of the situation being discussed or disputed. I am concerned with the content not the person who is acting as a vessel for communication.

I try to use my intelligence as a means to accurately assess the world and to inform others by sharing what I know. I do not use it as a means to selfishly, and self-righteously horde information as if it was exclusively mine to have and to own, nor do I use my intelligence as a means to intimidate and put down others in order to gain a (false) sense of superiority.

Sorry, tangent. :/

The point is this:

Most intelligent men suck at having their ideas challenged by a women.

And most intelligent men have incredible difficulty separating their egos from what should be their non-subjective pursuit of acquiring accurate information.

Why do men feel so belittled and threatened when a woman happens to know more than they do in a particular academic field/arena?

Hmm, to be continued...

Eh? They are???

I beg to differ. Although I'm not a brainiac, my husband really appreciates me, and he's very intelligent. However, we have a totally different perspective and outlook on things, so we can both learn from each other.

Healthy people respect each other, regardless of certain kinds of capabilities. Unhealthy people do not, regardless of capabilities.

I think *women* are more likely to be assholes to *women*. Again, though, that's probably only with people who lack self-esteem.
__________________

[kuranes]

She loved to "win" arguments against me in front of other people.
This is the hot button for some guys ( not you, dissonance ) versus private disagreements.

I remember Mike Wallace saying that he was a believer in feminism, but that having a woman as his "equal" or "superior" was something he might choose more in a woman business partner than in a wife. Interesting distinction.

On the other hand, there was a study quite a while back ( I do not have a link ) that showed that husbands found their wives more desirable or sexy ( or they had sex more often each week, I forget ) if the wife had a job outside of being a home maker, in the "working world". This study came out during the era when a lot of men were complaining about how it was "unnecessary" for their wives to take such jobs, and vocally resenting them doing so, as if it showed their masculine "bringing home the bacon' was inadequate.

[Jack Flak]

Eh? They are??? :shock:

I beg to differ. Although I'm not a brainiac, my husband really appreciates me, and he's very intelligent. However, we have a totally different perspective and outlook on things, so we can both learn from each other.
That's the pleasant variation of what we've discussed. I have a vague theoretical system of interaction in my head which I've never clarified, but it goes something like:

If two people attack the same problem in different ways, conflict results.
If two people attack the same problem in similar ways, no conflict results.
If two people attack different problems entirely, no conflict results.

Huge generalizations, all, and unrefined.

[dissonance]

This is the hot button for some guys ( not you, dissonance ) versus private disagreements.

Well it would always be intellectual, never personal. Personal stuff we would deal with behind the scenes (neither of us wanted anyone else to see our business, and we actually would be angry if one of us slipped in front of people).

Intellectual debate is like a sport.

[Little Linguist]

That's the pleasant variation of what we've discussed. I have a vague theoretical system of interaction in my head which I've never clarified, but it goes something like:

If two people attack the same problem in different ways, conflict results.
If two people attack the same problem in similar ways, no conflict results.
If two people attack different problems entirely, no conflict results.

Huge generalizations, all, and unrefined.

Eh, good point. :D

[dissonance]

If two people attack different problems entirely, no conflict results.

Unless they think the problems are related, which happens all the time. People are so damn defensive that they'll jump on other people even when disagreement isn't necessary.

[Little Linguist]

Unless they think the problems are related, which happens all the time. People are so damn defensive that they'll jump on other people even when disagreement isn't necessary.

I just call those people PITA for short. ;)

[phoenix13]

Women were actually better represented in academia in the decades before the Feminist movement "rescued" them from male repression.

The Grand Fraud: Affirmative Action for Women by Thomas Sowell -- Capitalism Magazine (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2639)

"'rescued'"? If the numbers were down right before the movement and are higher today, then it was a rescue (and if the #s in the 50s were low enough, they probably necessatated/prompted the movement in the first place). It'd be interesting to see how the numbers from the 1920s compare to those in the decades following the movement. K, back to work...

[miggies]

no one is doubting that women are inteligent, what we are commenting on is that they have only started to show there true genious in the last hundred years

[kuranes]

no one is doubting that women are inteligent, what we are commenting on is that they have only started to show there true genious in the last hundred years
Hour opinion or yorz ? :D



I just couldn't resist

[strawberryfields]

I think it really depends on the individual man, and how much weight he puts in feeling superior to others. Particularly with regard to intelligence you can get men who like to have the upper-hand, and enjoy an adoring woman who says just how intelligent they are and won't challenge them. I think it would be a sweeping generalisation to say that intelligent men as a whole are threatened by intelligent women though. In reality a great deal of men say what attracted them to their partner was her intelligence, and value their partners capacity to connect with them on the same intellectual level. Interestingly though, I was playing the old classic game 'Would you rather?' (!) recently with a large group of mixed sex (unmarried) friends. I asked the question 'Would you rather marry someone more or less intelligent than you?'. Almost every female said more intelligent than her, almost every male said less intelligent than him. There was a very noticeable difference based on gender, and I had anticipated it (and I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, just a preference difference.) I think provided you're roughly the same level most males would prefer to be slightly more intelligent, and most females slightly less (I certainly would want to marry someone more intelligent than me, ideally.)

[heart]

the comment was based on the fact that women of the last hundred years have decided that there not going to sit back and take shit any more, i didn't dismiss that there have been inteligent women through out history dating back futher, it was just a point that prior to that most women feared for there lives if most of the men in power of any nature found out that they had interests other then the common "house" wife, and it wasn't a sexist comment

How does having interests outside of raising children and taking care of the home (BIG jobs in the past that required many skills and creativity) relate to whether or not a woman is intelligent? :huh:

Did most women in western culture really "fear for their lives" if they got into a commerical venture to raise money for their families? :shock: We've been reading vastly different social history materials!

[Beat]

No. I think intelligent men like and are intrigued with intelligent women.

[GZA]

I've seen males confused or nervous regarding how to socially interact with an intelligent female they're in competition with; they respect her and aren't threatened so much as befuddled because they don't think ribbing her or throwing around typical friendly put-downs like they would toward males would be appropriate.

That's way different than threatened, though.
I agree with this, I think it's very accurate.

For example, in my schools Model UN club, a friend of mine was grouped together with a new girl to the club. Last year, he had won the award for "best speach" at the regional competition, but when she started talking, he felt intimidated. He was in the same group as her so he could have spoken as well in the debates, but instead he remained silent and did not speak, which I found very strange. He told me after that he felt intimidated by her, even after I reassured him that not only is he just as good but he is probably a better speaker anyway (which is true -she was good, but she was too grandiose and she said some silly things like "nuclear weapons had nothing to do with the end of WW2" among other misinformation.) Sounds like he was just nervous and taken off gaurd...

Personally, I think the whole men being intimidated by women thing is a thing of the past. The entire sexism thing... thing of the past where I come from.

[Anja]

My vote's with kuranes, Little Linguist and Tallulah. Once you get where you guys are about it the sailing's pretty smooth.

There's lightness there. . .

[Nocapszy]

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE BEING TAUGHT NEW THINGS AS WELL AS HAVING MY PREVIOUSLY HELD BELIEFS BE CHALLENGED.

Err... seriously? You do? I... 'm not really sure I know how to respond.

Man I really should read the whole post before I respond and ignore these things...


I try to use my intelligence as a means to accurately assess the world and to inform others by sharing what I know. I do not use it as a means to selfishly, and self-righteously horde information as if it was exclusively mine to have and to own, nor do I use my intelligence as a means to intimidate and put down others in order to gain a (false) sense of superiority.

Yeah I know what you mean.

On the other hand, I actually am superior, so it's not so bad when I put people down. They were already below me to begin with. Exactly where below is of little concern to me.

[Jack Flak]

LMAO

[dissonance]

On the other hand, I actually am superior, so it's not so bad when I put people down. They were already below me to begin with. Exactly where below is of little concern to me.

At least you admit it! And when people fight you back, you don't claim it's because you're a male...

[CaptainChick]

Thank you to all that have responded, I have yet to read all the replies which, by the way, I am very excited to do, (I don't feel like being argumentative or confrontational right now, so I will wait till I'm in a less fluffy mood).

:)

Anyhow,

I guess I should sort of add this addendum to my OP.

My father was a certifiable genius, (an INTP) and he fell in love with my mother, who happens to be a certifiable moron, (she suffered some brain damage as an infant or toddler when she almost died of influenza), and she is cognitively functional but pretty fucking slow. And ever since I was a kid I found this disparity between their intellectual aptitudes fascinating, and by the time I was a teenager, I just found it downright disgusting.

In my father's eyes, I was never viewed as being anything other than a girl of average intelligence, (I know this because he had explicitly told me this on multiple occasions).

Ugh, I could NEVER be with a mate whom I deemed to be my intellectual inferior, NEVER.

I guess my issue really is with what I find to be male's relatively shallow/superficial mating preferences.

In order for me to truly love and respect my partner, I have to be mentally stimulated and challenged by his intellect/world view (amongst other things, of course, that don't pertain to this particular thread topic).

Why am I such a sapiosexual, it sucks because it really is limiting the size of my prospective pool of mates.

I apologize for my incoherent ramblings, I am a bit fatigued right now.

Um, yeah.

[disregard]

Incoherent ramblings? Yours are the only really long posts that I never have to force myself to read. Content; check. Delivery; check.

Edit: Okay, so it wasn't that long. But still.

[dissonance]

Thank you to all that have responded, I have yet to read all the replies which, by the way, I am very excited to do, (I don't feel like being argumentative or confrontational right now, so I will wait till I'm in a less fluffy mood).

:)

Anyhow,

I guess I should sort of add this addendum to my OP.

My father was a certifiable genius, (an INTP) and he fell in love with my mother, who happens to be a certifiable moron, (she suffered some brain damage as an infant or toddler when she almost died of influenza), and she is cognitively functional but pretty fucking slow. And ever since I was a kid I found this disparity between their intellectual aptitudes fascinating, and by the time I was a teenager, I just found it downright disgusting.

Interesting. My INTP father is also a genius. My ISTJ mother always seemed like a downright idiot next to him and I always wondered what the hell he was doing with her.

Ugh, I could NEVER be with a mate whom I deemed to be my intellectual inferior, NEVER.

In order for me to truly love and respect my partner, I have to be mentally stimulated and challenged by his intellect/world view (amongst other things, of course, that don't pertain to this particular thread topic).

Why am I such a sapiosexual, it sucks because it really is limiting the size of my prospective pool of mates.

Yuuuuup.

I guess my issue really is with what I find to be male's relatively shallow/superficial mating preferences.

Yeah most guys suck. Most girls do too; what can you do?

[Peguy]

No I generally don't find intelligent women threatening per se. It's only annoying if they nit-pick your every thought, in a vain attempt to prove a point about how a woman can be just as smart as a man. And as I said, it's more annoying than "intelligent".

Most intelligent women I talk to on a personal level never seem to act like this. They seem very interesting in having a geniune friendly discussion on various topics, and often compliment me on my intelligence and erudition. Of course, I always give the same compliments to them back.

[dissonance]

No I generally don't find intelligent women threatening per se. It's only annoying if they nit-pick your every thought, in a vain attempt to prove a point about how a woman can be just as smart as a man. And as I said, it's more annoying than "intelligent".

Lol. My ex does this to me now that she's mad at me for avoiding her. I guess not for a crusade of women against men, but a crusade of her against me.

[Hmm]

Make love not war.

[disregard]

Why must the two be mutually exclusive? ;)

[whatever]

For an interesting flip on this issue, I've most recently been involved with someone with no college education and who might not be as conventionally "intelligent" as I am. He's definitley quick and witty though, which is the attraction. He loves the fact that I know things and can spar with him verbally and then break down the news into every day explanations afterwords- and has bragged about his involvement with a really smart girl.

Am I bothered by this disparity? Not really... if I want to discuss a delightfully nerdy topic it's easy to find someone to chat with. I feel comfortable and desired (I guess that's the best word for the place there).

It usually seems to me that theres also a disparity between women looking down on men... just saying relating to some comments that I've received from others :)

[Peguy]

The problem I often have is that I have to prop up the women I'm talking to.

Just a few days ago, I was chatting with one girl, and when I complimented on her knowledge on MBTI, she replied "well compared to all the stuff you know, that's not much of an accomplishment."

She's not the only girl I've talked to make those kinds of remarks to me. I guess I make them look stupid by comparison. Not my intention. :(

[CaptainChick]

No I generally don't find intelligent women threatening per se. It's only annoying if they nit-pick your every thought, in a vain attempt to prove a point about how a woman can be just as smart as a man. And as I said, it's more annoying than "intelligent".

Most intelligent women I talk to on a personal level never seem to act like this. They seem very interesting in having a geniune friendly discussion on various topics, and often compliment me on my intelligence and erudition. Of course, I always give the same compliments to them back.
Asinus asinum fricat.

[Peguy]

Asinus asinum fricat.

Hey for once you've made a witty reply. Congrats!

[CaptainChick]

Yeah most guys suck. Most girls do tooThis is true, unfortunately.

:sad:

what can you do?
I dunno, search for exceptional people, I guess.

Make love not war.

Why must the two be mutually exclusive? ;)They mustn't! ;)

The problem I often have is that I have to prop up the women I'm talking to.

Just a few days ago, I was chatting with one girl, and when I complimented on her knowledge on MBTI, she replied "well compared to all the stuff you know, that's not much of an accomplishment."

She's not the only girl I've talked to make those kinds of remarks to me. I guess I make them look stupid by comparison. Not my intention. :(
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!

:D

Pure comedy, thanks! :)

[CaptainChick]

For an interesting flip on this issue, I've most recently been involved with someone with no college education and who might not be as conventionally "intelligent" as I am. He's definitley quick and witty though, which is the attraction. He loves the fact that I know things and can spar with him verbally and then break down the news into every day explanations afterwords- and has bragged about his involvement with a really smart girl.

Am I bothered by this disparity? Not really... if I want to discuss a delightfully nerdy topic it's easy to find someone to chat with. I feel comfortable and desired (I guess that's the best word for the place there).
You bring up excellent points.

But he is *quick* and *witty* which kinda means, at least in my books, that he *is* intelligent.

It usually seems to me that theres also a disparity between women looking down on men... just saying relating to some comments that I've received from others :)
Me no understand, explain, please! :)

[Peguy]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!

:D

Pure comedy, thanks! :)

So what's with all these pointless two cents you constantly throw in everytime I make a post? Fufilling a kind of quota or something?

[CaptainChick]

Working overtime to fill some bitch quota or something?
Gee, Peguy, you are just soooooooooooo damn clever!!!

:wubbie:

:blush:

:wubbie:

Your posts are always so, hmm, what's the word, illuminating!!!

God, I could only dream of what it would be like to have your stellar reasoning skills!

:wubbie:

:blush:

:wub:

[whatever]

I've had quite a few people ask me "why I'm wasting my time with someone who is obviously intellectually inferior to me" :dry: because he isn't known for doing things like debating the pros and cons of mid century literature or different tax systems. One of my own best friends told me "girl- you'd better get yourself a REAL smart man!"

I really don't get it though- if I'm happy that's what matters- and anyone who is that quick with innuendo and comebacks is good in my book! :)

The general attitude I get is the whole "you can do better and get a SMART man" though :(

[CaptainChick]

I've had quite a few people ask me "why I'm wasting my time with someone who is obviously intellectually inferior to me" :dry: because he isn't known for doing things like debating the pros and cons of mid century literature or different tax systems. One of my own best friends told me "girl- you'd better get yourself a REAL smart man!"

I really don't get it though- if I'm happy that's what matters- and anyone who is that quick with innuendo and comebacks is good in my book! :)

The general attitude I get is the whole "you can do better and get a SMART man" though :(
A REAL smart man, what, like an M.D., a D.D.S.? LOL!!!

Educated idiots are the most annoying people out there! :rolli:

Human intelligence and idiocy pretty much transcend most degrees and occupations, imo.

[disregard]

whatever: People just insult the person you're dating to your face?

What do you say?

[whatever]

Yeah- the whole judging people by thier intelligence isn't really the property of either men or women really I guess. Happiness should really be the goal instead of finding a proper match on paper, but too many people get hung up on stupid things.

I guess I just felt like making the point that it's not only men who judge that way- women just don't get as much attention on that matter. :)

[whatever]

whatever: People just insult the person you're dating to your face?

What do you say?

I just point out that I'm happy, it's none of thier business and that if they're going to talk that way they can go and fuck themselves.

I don't really get it- I did work in a rather hostile, backbiting workplace for a few months though and most of the comments I heard were there.

[heart]

People are idiots and they just say shit to mess with you. You to please yourself in this world.

I still like the movie "Tim" and also the book. It's by the woman who wrote The Thorn Birds but I'm too lazy right now to look up her name.

[Anja]

Thank you. . .

Ugh, I could NEVER be with a mate whom I deemed to be my intellectual inferior, NEVER.

Laffin' out loud here, CC. It's quite a statement. Just wait til you find Mr. Right, are married for a few years and then find out that sometimes this smart man, smart enough to pick you, for heaven's sake, can be downright effiin' dumb at times! Hee. :newwink:

[heart]

I'd always go for idealism and angst over intellect...not sure I spelled that right and right now don't cqre

Nothing can beat a beautiful angry heart in a man, raging at the machine and the heavens by day and staring wistfully at the stars at night but still very much a man.

[CzeCze]

I have to say, I'm kinda taken aback by the seeming subtext of the responses to the OP -- basically it's like, "Settle down Feminazi and stop stirring stuff up". Almost like, "It's okay if you're intelligent, as you long as you know your place, woman." Or, "I'll decide who's intelligent, and if you confront me, then you can't be intelligent."

Tsk, tsk.

I like intelligent women who are in your face and combative, particularly to guys. It makes me smile. Like so :D Even if they aren't "intelligent" I'm sure every time they get "confrontational" another angel is born in heaven. :laugh:

I do agree with Little Linguist that women can be much cattier and destrcutive to each other than men. Can women be insecure? For sure.

But, FTR, I dislike pushy, arrogant men and women just as equally, 'cause I'm *that* progressive. LOL. So if a woman is just as bastardly, insecure, condescending, defensive, territorial, smug as her male counterparts (because c'mon now, we all know *guys* like this IRL, at least I've always encountered them at work) more power to her. I'm not going to slam her any more than I do the guy.

So I'm not really sure what the OP was trying to get at or where the ensuing conversation is going but my initial response to the question was, "Yes, it is ingrained in and supported in society for men to choose non-threatening and even easly controlled female partners, and perceived and expressed 'intelligence' is a big factor in that. And 'combativeness.' LOL" (<-- seriously, I was even gonna put an 'LOL' in there somewhere.)

Honestly, most women who have been pegged as 'intelligent' by school, community, etc. already know this. You can argue it's not true, but lived experience and observation tells you different. True, a man may appreciate intelligence and acknoweldge a woman's keen intelligence that rivals his own -- but that often puts the woman out of romance territory. In some ways, it stops making her a [dateable/mateable] woman.

You know how guys complain that they're so sensitive and nice that girls stop seeing them as 'guys'. Maybe we can try to draw some crude comparisons and parallels.

And we're not really talking "pure intelligence" here so much as how someone expresses and carries themselves. Intelligence, for it to be functional and effective -- also pairs with confidence and independence -- because *expressed* intelligence does not bow to popular opinion and will disagree to prove its point. Perhaps that's where some accusations of 'combativeness' come in?

I think what the OP question spoke to me about is the concept of *equal partnership*. And that opens up a whole new fascinating discussion territory, especially when talking about [het] men and [het] women.

[CaptainChick]

I have to say, I'm kinda taken aback by the seeming subtext of the responses to the OP -- basically it's like, "Settle down Feminazi and stop stirring stuff up". Almost like, "It's okay if you're intelligent, as you long as you know your place, woman." Or, "I'll decide who's intelligent, and if you confront me, then you can't be intelligent."

Tsk, tsk.

I like intelligent women who are in your face and combative, particularly to guys. It makes me smile. Like so :D Even if they aren't "intelligent" I'm sure every time they get "confrontational" another angel is born in heaven. :laugh:

I do agree with Little Linguist that women can be much cattier and destrcutive to each other than men. Can women be insecure? For sure.

But, FTR, I dislike pushy, arrogant men and women just as equally, 'cause I'm *that* progressive. LOL. So if a woman is just as bastardly, insecure, condescending, defensive, territorial, smug as her male counterparts (because c'mon now, we all know *guys* like this IRL, at least I've always encountered them at work) more power to her. I'm not going to slam her any more than I do the guy.

So I'm not really sure what the OP was trying to get at or where the ensuing conversation is going but my initial response to the question was, "Yes, it is ingrained in and supported in society for men to choose non-threatening and even easly controlled female partners, and perceived and expressed 'intelligence' is a big factor in that. And 'combativeness.' LOL" (<-- seriously, I was even gonna put an 'LOL' in there somewhere.)

Honestly, most women who have been pegged as 'intelligent' by school, community, etc. already know this. You can argue it's not true, but lived experience and observation tells you different. True, a man may appreciate intelligence and acknoweldge a woman's keen intelligence that rivals his own -- but that often puts the woman out of romance territory. In some ways, it stops making her a [dateable/mateable] woman.

You know how guys complain that they're so sensitive and nice that girls stop seeing them as 'guys'. Maybe we can try to draw some crude comparisons and parallels.

And we're not really talking "pure intelligence" here so much as how someone expresses and carries themselves. Intelligence, for it to be functional and effective -- also pairs with confidence and independence -- because *expressed* intelligence does not bow to popular opinion and will disagree to prove its point. Perhaps that's where some accusations of 'combativeness' come in?

I think what the OP question spoke to me about is the concept of *equal partnership*. And that opens up a whole new fascinating discussion territory, especially when talking about [het] men and [het] women.
:wubbie:

[CzeCze]

PS -- re Whatever's situation -- that actually seems more like classism to me than pure 'intellectual superiority' or at work. I've known 2 other cases of college educated women who had degrees from 'name schools' who got flak (not Jack Flak, please, no puns) for dating or getting engaged to guys who didn't have a degree or were "just working" somewhere in town.

In one case, it was strange because the woman said her fiancee had a successful IT career and people would still comment, "He needs to go back to school to get his degree" and she was just like, "Why? He doesn't need it, he's already there in his career where a degree is supposed to take you."

And it was more about formal education vs. "intelligence".

I think people could also criticize along the lines of ambition and where a guy is headed. 'Cause you know, a man is supposed to support his wife and a family, not the other way around.

I also know another college educated woman who was in a LTR with a contractor. The contactor is pretty successful, has her own business. But the college degreed woman would said, "My gf doesn't have a real degree, she didn't go to a real school" or something like that. A mutual friend overheard her and was taken aback by how dismissive she was.

[Tallulah]

This is the hot button for some guys ( not you, dissonance ) versus private disagreements.

I remember Mike Wallace saying that he was a believer in feminism, but that having a woman as his "equal" or "superior" was something he might choose more in a woman business partner than in a wife. Interesting distinction.

On the other hand, there was a study quite a while back ( I do not have a link ) that showed that husbands found their wives more desirable or sexy ( or they had sex more often each week, I forget ) if the wife had a job outside of being a home maker, in the "working world". This study came out during the era when a lot of men were complaining about how it was "unnecessary" for their wives to take such jobs, and vocally resenting them doing so, as if it showed their masculine "bringing home the bacon' was inadequate.

This drives me nuts. I can't respect a man who wouldn't want his wife to be an equal. I just picture someone benevolently deigning to regale his adoring, but idiotic wife with his fascinating stories of life in the boardroom. Pardon me while I throw up, Mike Wallace. Of course, he is older than dirt.

[FDG]

You also might be encountering people who aren't all that interested in discussing Serious Issues That Plague Our Society all the time.

+1 I don't even like serious discussions anymore. When I was in high school and I could never do them anywhere, I liked them more - but now that every day I have to hear about them, I prefer to talk about bullshit in my free time

[Anja]

"Older than dirt" is no excuse!

[animenagai]

lol intimidated? i wish there were more of them. too many air-headed ones out there.

[Anja]

I didn't know we were going into this territory but as long as we're here, I've seen little in the way of advancement for women.

Political correctness has silenced some intelligent men but it hasn't changed attitudes all that much from what I've noticed..

The glass ceiling is still alive and well. Where is our woman President? Isn't it our turn pretty soon.?

When I started my career I was making 67 cents on my male colleague's dollar and had more education than some of them. What's the percentage these days? I don't think we've quite made it to a dollar for a dollar yet. But it's only been a few decades.

I used to enjoy a good mental sparring match with a colleague and his favorite comeback was that men had to go out and fight the wars. And this was a brilliant man! My reminder to him was that it was the men who started the wars.

I am of the opinion, after years of a feminist focus, that as long as there is testosterone we will have these attitudes and differences.

Don't, dear male readers, draw any rash conclusions from that statement!

[Kaizer]

This drives me nuts. I can't respect a man who wouldn't want his wife to be an equal. I just picture someone benevolently deigning to regale his adoring, but idiotic wife with his fascinating stories of life in the boardroom. Pardon me while I throw up, Mike Wallace. Of course, he is older than dirt.

The concept of 'equals' is tricky and so it is popularized as 'the same' and the natural level at which it eventually evens out is generally neither 'equal' nor 'the same'. It isn't 'equal' because a majority of ppl don't quite get what that would be and it isn't 'the same' since well (stating the seeming obvious here!) we're all individuals and with gender divide manifesting itself in a more divisive manner when it comes to those who don't naturally see intricacies, the concept of equals gets mangled and distorted esp given the seeming comfort offered by tradition and so called culture etc.

Awareness and more importantly self awareness (read maturity etc) is more likely to lead to 'equals' otherwise its more likely to end up as a tussle for achieving selfish ends.

for whatever these 2 cents are worth.

[dissonance]

I have to say, I'm kinda taken aback by the seeming subtext of the responses to the OP -- basically it's like, "Settle down Feminazi and stop stirring stuff up". Almost like, "It's okay if you're intelligent, as you long as you know your place, woman." Or, "I'll decide who's intelligent, and if you confront me, then you can't be intelligent."

Tsk, tsk.

In my defense, there is subtext.

[CzeCze]

In my defense, there is subtext.

Har har :harhar:

And no need to defend yourself, you defensive sensitive man, you! (Unless it's about Cal vs Stanford) LOL

The concept of 'equals' is tricky...


^^ I'm glad you brought up that 'equal' doesn't mean 'same'.

What 'equal' means is equanimity or balance. And that doesn't necessarily mean 50/50 balance necessarily. It just means that a status quo in the relationships is understood and maintained so that it works in whichever way it was intended (who gets to decide how the relationship works is another thread!)

In a relationship, it's understood who brings what to the table. A trophy wife will probably become an ex-wife if she say, becomes horribly disfigured or becomes morbidly obese. Or *gasp* ages. Likewise, the billionaire CEO with the trophy wife might find himself single and not nearly as eligible a bachelor once he loses his fortunes and downsizes his Benz for a Toyota Corolla.

So there is a 'balance' -- but the equation can be lopsided from the beginning.

[CaptainChick]

My idea of not being threatened by smart women was subtly planted there by a smart woman, but I now think of it as my idea. :)
HAHHAAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!

Brilliant post!

:)

[EffEmDoubleyou]

I have to say, I'm kinda taken aback by the seeming subtext of the responses to the OP -- basically it's like, "Settle down Feminazi and stop stirring stuff up". Almost like, "It's okay if you're intelligent, as you long as you know your place, woman." Or, "I'll decide who's intelligent, and if you confront me, then you can't be intelligent."

Tsk, tsk.

I like intelligent women who are in your face and combative, particularly to guys. It makes me smile.

:dry:

[dissonance]

I agree with the theme of this thread, btw.

My ex always had problems with guys being threatened by her, and was quite hated by a lot of them (more girls than guys, probably, but that's a separate point). She is also an ENTP and has ridiculously underdeveloped Fe, so she would run people over in debate without thinking of the consequences. Meh.

So a point I want to make -- I think there's a huge difference in male reactions between reserved intelligent women and extremely extroverted intelligent women. ENPs in particular -- it just shows so much more.

[CaptainChick]

Nothing can beat a beautiful angry heart in a man, raging at the machine and the heavens by day and staring wistfully at the stars at night but still very much a man.
"A beautiful angry heart in a man"... with a quiet burning intensity.

(swoons)

:wubbie:

[CaptainChick]

So a point I want to make -- I think there's a huge difference in male reactions between reserved intelligent women and extremely extroverted intelligent women. ENPs in particular -- it just shows so much more.
Great point.

I also would like to add, that aside from my genetic and personality type influences on the manifestations of my intellect, my having also been raised predominantly with and among Jews, and being half ethnically Jewish myself, I have kind of been culturally raised to engage in discourse and debate.

Granted, in communication style, I am a bit more like your stereotypical, skeptically dissenting, gesticulating Jewish dude than I am like a stereotypical Jewess, but still, critical thinking and constantly questioning the validity of things has been ingrained in me since I was in kindergarten or so.

So, yeah...

[Terian]

To be perfectly honest, and perhaps a bit pretentious, I will say that I don't think I've ever met a female in my group of peers (within say, 3 years of my age) that was smarter, more intelligent, than me. Sure, I've had female classmates get better grades than me, but I never really tried anyway- better grades just meant more dedication.

As for a potential mate, I think that if she were more intelligent than me (which is unlikely, as I'm within the top 2-3 percentile of intelligence within the United States), I'd be a little intimidated. I would be content with someone who was at my level of intelligence, but any more than that and I'll feel threatened. It has everything to do with my personal drive for one-upmanship.

[CaptainChick]

^Lol, it must be nice to have testicles.

[Ivy]

I think some of the posts that pinpoint the additional variable of "confrontational" as the source of the intimidation are probably right. Subtract "confrontational" from the equation and you still get discriminated against by dumb smart guys, it's just not in the form of intimidation. They just don't really care what you have to say. I've had this with a few guys, in particular the male half of a couple my husband and I tried to befriend a few years back. He was a scientist, she was a fashion designer, and I really liked them both, but when we visited with them he would take Noah into The Dude Room and leave me and the fashionista to talk mom stuff in the kitchen. I didn't like that very much at all. I talked to Noah about it and the next time we went to their house he declined the invitation to The Dude Room and the guy was pissy for the rest of the night. We haven't seen them again.

[substitute]

For me (flattering myself with the assumption that I count as an intelligent man lol), in a companion, high intelligence is absolutely prerequisite.

I could probably make a relationship with someone much less intelligent than me work - but it'd depend on that person acknowledging their inferior intelligence and having an agreed sorta policy where in case of doubt, my way's probably assumed to be best haha... which would mean I'd feel more sorta like her parent than soul mate... BUT being a person of a) wide social circles and b) ability to slip into Edwardian mode at will, I could probably cope with this since I'd get my intelligent conversation from friends and stuff.

But that's by no means ideal. Though... the idea of someone just taking care of the household stuff whilst deferring important decisions to me does sound kinda wickedly tempting, revolting as it is to modern values hahahahah.... as a bisexual though, I couldn't care less if this person were male or female. It doesn't have to do with gender, just relationship dynamics, or what the most realistic role for them to take leaves me with as a role to play myself.

Ideally, honestly though, I'd want somebody whose judgement and thought processes I could trust in, not to fuck up all the time. And if someone's an actual companion then I sorta do need them to be able to follow what I'm talking about and bounce things back to me that I hadn't thought of, etc... I can't imagine spending time with someone who can't even follow my train of thought most of the time being a very fulfilling experience...

[Owl]

I think some of the posts that pinpoint the additional variable of "confrontational" as the source of the intimidation are probably right. Subtract "confrontational" from the equation and you still get discriminated against by dumb smart guys, it's just not in the form of intimidation. They just don't really care what you have to say. I've had this with a few guys, in particular the male half of a couple my husband and I tried to befriend a few years back. He was a scientist, she was a fashion designer, and I really liked them both, but when we visited with them he would take Noah into The Dude Room and leave me and the fashionista to talk mom stuff in the kitchen. I didn't like that very much at all. I talked to Noah about it and the next time we went to their house he declined the invitation to The Dude Room and the guy was pissy for the rest of the night. We haven't seen them again.

A friend recently told me that she and another mutual friend of ours (also a she) were talking to a group of guys, and these guys totally blew off what they were saying as wrong-headed until another guy (also a mutual friend) entered the room and, without any prior knowledge of the conversation, said what the two girls had been saying all along, and suddenly all the guys changed their tune and agreed that he was right. WTF?

[substitute]

Sometimes it has nothing to do though, with not wanting to listen to women or not thinking they have anything worth saying, or not thinking they're intelligent or anything else. Sometimes it just has to do with guys just wanting to be guys for a while, in a guy space. Women do it too - there are countless female only support groups, clubs, parties, whatever, constantly advertized in our local newspapers; sometimes girls just wanna be girls without the guys around.

I find it frustrating though, that when the girls wanna have a girls' night or whatever, that's all fine, it's the girls wanting some space. But when the guys do it, it's sexist and put down to them feeling 'threatened' by women or whatever... bs.

Actually I've lost count of the number of times when I've been to dinner at a friend's house, and simply the fact that I'm male has made me elligible for expectations of great experience at carving roast meat whilst everyone looks on (never done it before, made a mess of it, was assumed to be stupid); also, I've many times been, along with the other guys, sent away BY the women who've basically figured that it's okay to just plonk a crate of beer in my arms and tell me to go and watch the football on TV with the other guys because it's their 'girl time' now, when I'm bored to tears by football and had valuable things I could've contributed to their conversation.

It happens both ways you know.

[nonsequitur]

I'm not sure if "threatened" is the right word.

I know a few males in academia (usually >40 years old) who just treat women like they're brainless toys to be used and thrown away. They usually take a "why don't you take your toys and go home to rest" kind of attitude that's completely condescending and pisses me off. On the other hand, I do find that it's a lot easier being accepted if you're androgynous and non-confrontational. When I want my supervisor to agree with me, I "sell" him an idea. But I don't tell him what my idea is, right off because I get blown off. I give him the facts, allow him to come to the same conclusion as me, and act all excited about it when he does. When I disagree with him, I say that I agree with him, but bring up my concerns in a way that frames it as "what would people say about this inconsistent fact and that inconsistent fact?" and allow him time to think it over. So he tends to think of me as "conventional" and "supportive", which allows us to get along on the surface. (under the surface, I hate that I can't be honest with him like I can with the male postdoc in my lab who's always happy to hear my ideas)

My sister's (INTJ too) a lot smarter than I am, and intimidates even the most secure of guys (but she also intimidates girls). I think it's because she's a lot more confrontational about it, and wants to be acknowledged to be right ALL THE TIME. But I agree that ENPs tend to be a lot more... aggressive? I'm not sure if that's the right word. They seem to be a lot more upfront about how they feel and what they think. Personally, I find it a little bit intrusive. It's like, if you're just looking for a night to chill out, talk about nothing in particular, and this person comes along to tell you that "you're wrong, and you're illogical, and I don't care what you think because... etc", it's not so much intimidating as a turn-off. I don't care to be right, I just want to feel like the interaction goes both ways instead of being preached to.

FTR, I am a female. And what I wrote above applies to both males and females.

[Jack Flak]

I'd always go for idealism and angst over intellect...not sure I spelled that right and right now don't care

Nothing can beat a beautiful angry heart in a man, raging at the machine and the heavens by day and staring wistfully at the stars at night but still very much a man.
Well...Is it okay if he's smart too?

[pure_mercury]

Multiple posters on here have commented on having brilliant fathers. I am not used to being around that type of example. My father is a decent and devoted man (both of my parents are great people), but he is not an intellectual. Most people in my family are not. My friends are, and I see their interactions with their families to an extent, but not so much. My mother is a very sharp woman, however. On that side of my family, the women tend to be the more functional in the relationships.

[bluemonday]

When I want my supervisor to agree with me, I "sell" him an idea. But I don't tell him what my idea is, right off because I get blown off. I give him the facts, allow him to come to the same conclusion as me, and act all excited about it when he does. When I disagree with him, I say that I agree with him, but bring up my concerns in a way that frames it as "what would people say about this inconsistent fact and that inconsistent fact?" and allow him time to think it over. So he tends to think of me as "conventional" and "supportive", which allows us to get along on the surface. (under the surface, I hate that I can't be honest with him like I can with the male postdoc in my lab who's always happy to hear my ideas)


I think this is really sleazy. In some ways it is worse than the male insecurity that makes such tactics seem necessary. Some women want to have it both ways; they want to get their own way and they want to keep everyone sweet all the time. In the process they do nothing to break down prejudices or further the interests of gender equality, but they still complain about the lack thereof! Better to have a bit of conflict, than to shamelessly sacrifice your integrity.

[Ivy]

Sometimes it has nothing to do though, with not wanting to listen to women or not thinking they have anything worth saying, or not thinking they're intelligent or anything else. Sometimes it just has to do with guys just wanting to be guys for a while, in a guy space. Women do it too - there are countless female only support groups, clubs, parties, whatever, constantly advertized in our local newspapers; sometimes girls just wanna be girls without the guys around.

I find it frustrating though, that when the girls wanna have a girls' night or whatever, that's all fine, it's the girls wanting some space. But when the guys do it, it's sexist and put down to them feeling 'threatened' by women or whatever... bs.

Actually I've lost count of the number of times when I've been to dinner at a friend's house, and simply the fact that I'm male has made me elligible for expectations of great experience at carving roast meat whilst everyone looks on (never done it before, made a mess of it, was assumed to be stupid); also, I've many times been, along with the other guys, sent away BY the women who've basically figured that it's okay to just plonk a crate of beer in my arms and tell me to go and watch the football on TV with the other guys because it's their 'girl time' now, when I'm bored to tears by football and had valuable things I could've contributed to their conversation.

It happens both ways you know.

Oh, I have no problem with guys getting together and doing guy stuff. Noah does it all the time, as do I with my women friends. But it wasn't the format I was expecting when a couple I wanted to be friends with both members of invited us over.

[nonsequitur]

I think this is really sleazy. In some ways it is worse than the male insecurity that makes such tactics seem necessary. Some women want to have it both ways; they want to get their own way and they want to keep everyone sweet all the time. In the process they do nothing to break down prejudices or further the interests of gender equality, but they still complain about the lack thereof! Better to have a bit of conflict, than to shamelessly sacrifice your integrity.

That's a lot easier said than done.

I've seen plenty of my female-colleagues get taken down for being confrontational. They DON'T get their way, don't get promoted, get a reputation as the "bitch" and are generally ignored. At least I voice my opinion, albeit in "socially acceptable" ways. Most of the female colleagues I've spoken to have problems even disagreeing with their supervisors.

"Breaking down gender inequality" is a nice thing in principle, but your voice is much louder when you're not a grunt. Guess who gets to move up the chain? It's not the ones who shout the loudest, make their voices the most shrill. It's the ones who will work within the system. It's a lot less idealistic, but I've learnt that idealism doesn't get you anywhere unless it's coupled with pragmatism and hard work.

I guess the point of this is: I used to think like you, but have grown up since.

Edited for "point of this", because that wasn't really the point.

[Ivy]

Multiple posters on here have commented on having brilliant fathers. I am not used to being around that type of example. My father is a decent and devoted man (both of my parents are great people), but he is not an intellectual. Most people in my family are not. My friends are, and I see their interactions with their families to an extent, but not so much. My mother is a very sharp woman, however. On that side of my family, the women tend to be the more functional in the relationships.

My dad will come out of left field with these brilliant gems of wisdom or some incisive analysis of a political situation, but otherwise it's easy to forget he has an intellect because I think it embarrasses him. He wants to be a salt of the earth kind of guy, which is why he left his former job in city government to be a mailman. The one thing he has continued to cultivate is his weird dark sense of humor. (My dad is probably an INFJ and it's the salt of the earth thing that I think is why I used to think ISFJ for him.)

But in a lot of ways, he lets mom run the show, and hell yes she is intimidating, but he loves it. :D

[bluemonday]

That's a lot easier said than done.

I've seen plenty of my female-colleagues get taken down for being confrontational. They DON'T get their way, don't get promoted, get a reputation as the "bitch" and are generally ignored. At least I voice my opinion, albeit in "socially acceptable" ways. Most of the female colleagues I've spoken to have problems even disagreeing with their supervisors.

"Breaking down gender inequality" is a nice thing in principle, but your voice is much louder when you're not a grunt. Guess who gets to move up the chain? It's not the ones who shout the loudest, make their voices the most shrill. It's the ones who will work within the system. It's a lot less idealistic, but I've learnt that idealism doesn't get you anywhere unless it's coupled with pragmatism and hard work.

I guess the point of this is: I used to think like you, but have grown up since.

Edited for "point of this", because that wasn't really the point.

If growing up involves corrupting my ideals, I hope I never grow up. For some people, there are more important things in life than "moving up the chain". And since when does honesty and transparency = "bitch" ?

Of course it is more expedient to play the system, but how does that promote the greater good?

Most real progress in gender/racial/other equality has been brought about as a result of people who were not afraid to make their voices heard, even though personal sacrifices were involved. A world without those people isn't one I would want to live in.

[ajblaise]

If growing up involves corrupting my ideals, I hope I never grow up. For some people, there are more important things in life than "moving up the chain". And since when does honesty and transparency = "bitch" ?

Of course it is more expedient to play the system, but how does that promote the greater good?

Most real progress in gender/racial/other equality has been brought about as a result of people who were not afraid to make their voices heard, even though personal sacrifices were involved. A world without those people isn't one I would want to live in.

I see nothing wrong with what nonsequitur does. If the system your in is disadvantageous to you, there nothing wrong with playing the system.

[nonsequitur]

If growing up involves corrupting my ideals, I hope I never grow up. For some people, there are more important things in life than "moving up the chain". And since when does honesty and transparency = "bitch" ?

Of course it is more expedient to play the system, but how does that promote the greater good?

Most real progress in gender/racial/other equality has been brought about as a result of people who were not afraid to make their voices heard, even though personal sacrifices were involved. A world without those people isn't one I would want to live in.

Funny thing is, that sounds completely familiar to me. I was saying exactly the same thing about a year ago. I didn't want to grow up. It happened despite my protests. I won't argue with you further about being self-sacrificial and "giving up my integrity" because I wouldn't have convinced myself even a few months back. I guess it takes some personal experiences to change a person.

[bluemonday]

I see nothing wrong with what nonsequitur does. If the system your in is disadvantageous to you, there nothing wrong with playing the system.

There is if it involves sacrificing your integrity. (Crikey - I sound like an idealist, wtf?)

Women have always manipulated men in this way. By massaging (and maintaining) their egos and sense of entitlement. It's every bit as wrong as the way some men try to manipulate, coerce, subjugate women. Wrong if you believe in honesty and respect between the sexes, that is. People who behave manipulatively don't deserve respect, IMO, and rarely get it.

[bluemonday]

Funny thing is, that sounds completely familiar to me. I was saying exactly the same thing about a year ago. I didn't want to grow up. It happened despite my protests. I won't argue with you further about being self-sacrificial and "giving up my integrity" because I wouldn't have convinced myself even a few months back. I guess it takes some personal experiences to change a person.

growing up <> selling out

[ajblaise]

There is if it involves sacrificing your integrity. (Crikey - I sound like an idealist, wtf?)

Women have always manipulated men in this way. By massaging (and maintaining) their egos and sense of entitlement. It's every bit as wrong as the way some men try to manipulate, coerce, subjugate women. Wrong if you believe in honesty and respect between the sexes, that is. People who behave manipulatively don't deserve respect, IMO, and rarely get it.

What if this kind of manipulation of certain men is the only way they know about which gets them the results they need?

And it seems that she will only act this way with men who already have that possibly discriminatory mentality, not all men. She's not the original perpetrator in this case.

[nonsequitur]

There is if it involves sacrificing your integrity. (Crikey - I sound like an idealist, wtf?)

Women have always manipulated men in this way. By massaging (and maintaining) their egos and sense of entitlement. It's every bit as wrong as the way some men try to manipulate, coerce, subjugate women. Wrong if you believe in honesty and respect between the sexes, that is. People who behave manipulatively don't deserve respect, IMO, and rarely get it.

You are falling to a stereotype. I will tell you that men who are known as "leaders" in my industry do exactly the same thing. I don't see it as "manipulation", more of "greasing the wheels" of interaction. If I can get my point across while being pleasant and not cutting the other person down, why not do so? The others who thrive on conflict and "being right" are known very succinctly as "assholes".

And I'll be the first to inform you that I get a LOT more respect for being able to stand up for myself and my views, getting them accepted in a "respectful" manner than by direct conflict.

BTW, if I was going to be "honest" (and not "manipulative" as you so kindly labeled me earlier here) I'd say that your definition of "selling out" is very narrow and incredibly juvenile. But that wouldn't convince you, would it? No, you have to take the moral high ground - because it's so much easier debating when you actually have morals, unlike the other person.

[bluemonday]

What if this kind of manipulation of certain men is the only way they know about which gets them the results they need?

And it seems that she will only act this way with men who already have that possibly discriminatory mentality, not all men. She's not the original perpetrator in this case.

What if the only way of getting results from a man is to drop your knickers?
I know men like that, believe it or not :yes:

[ajblaise]

What if the only way of getting results from a man is to drop your knickers?
I know men like that, believe it or not :yes:

That puts women in a way more compromising position. I respect ambitious women usually no matter what they have to do, but I would hope that a women wouldn't go that far.

[bluemonday]

You are falling to a stereotype. I will tell you that men who are known as "leaders" in my industry do exactly the same thing. I don't see it as "manipulation", more of "greasing the wheels" of interaction. If I can get my point across while being pleasant and not cutting the other person down, why not do so? The others who thrive on conflict and "being right" are known very succinctly as "assholes".

And I'll be the first to inform you that I get a LOT more respect for being able to stand up for myself and my views, getting them accepted in a "respectful" manner than by direct conflict.

BTW, if I was going to be "honest" (and not "manipulative" as you so kindly labeled me earlier here) I'd say that your definition of "selling out" is very narrow and incredibly juvenile. But that wouldn't convince you, would it? No, you have to take the moral high ground - because it's so much easier debating when you actually have morals, unlike the other person.

? Why are you getting upset if you are so certain of your moral integrity?
Just because men/leaders/orks do it, doesn't make it right.
I don't make personal attacks. I merely said the behaviour is manipulative. I don't think that is in question. Different strokes for different folks. Wouldn't work for me is all.

[bluemonday]

That puts women in a way more compromising position. I respect ambitious women usually no matter what they have to do, but I would hope that a women wouldn't go that far.

who's the idealist now?

[ajblaise]

who's the idealist now?

Not me..I don't think. :huh:

[Anja]

What if the only way of getting results from a man is to drop your knickers?
I know men like that, believe it or not :yes:

You said what I've been thinking, bluemonday.

That works both ways too.

I've noticed that some men are able to, or attempt to, level the playing field by sexualizing the conversation.

[Anja]

Example : Newt Gingrich arguing against women fighting in the trenches because they were subject to certain "infections." Whoa.

All of a sudden the intelligence of whether a woman can make a good soldier is reduced to something about her sexuality.

[Jack Flak]

You said what I've been thinking, bluemonday.

That works both ways too.

I've noticed that some men are able to, or attempt to, level the playing field by sexualizing the conversation.
Yeah, well that works both ways also! (Actually, I don't know what the other way of your way is, so I could be going in circles...)

I've noticed that some women are able to level the playing field by sexualizing 99% of a man's brain just by entering the room. It's a painful experience. :)

[Anja]

Another: A male colleague whom I loved and could hold my own with in private conversation instantly shifting his stance with me in public, encroaching on my private space and making comments like, "This is the person I'd love to be stranded on a desert island with." That was something he'd have never done in private discourse.

It always felt like, among other things, he somehow was defusing my equal relationship with him when the boyz were around.

Yeah, well that works both ways also! (Actually, I don't know what the other way of your way is, so I could be going in circles...)

I've noticed that some women are able to level the playing field by sexualizing 99% of a man's brain just by entering the room. It's a painful experience. :)

I hear that, Jack. Can really throw a monkey wrench of confusion into what's going on!

And I'm thinking that when it happens to me, somehow it feels like a power-pulling maneuver.

Does it feel that way to men, also, or does it feel like empowerment?

Distrust that the issue is being clouded?
An invitation that flushes the issue down the toilet?

Hee.

[Terian]

^Lol, it must be nice to have testicles.

It feels just as good as being a gangsta.;)

[bluemonday]

maybe nonseq is right, maybe in this age and in this civilization, women don't have many options open to them and making yourself non-threatening and submissive is the most effective and the most legitimate.

I can't argue because I seem to p*ss everybody off all the time because I'm so bloody high-minded and scrupulous. I rely on my competence, like a good NT, but it only gets me so far. Fortunately, I'm not ambitious. And the wheels do need to be greased. I just don't want to get my hands dirty.
It's not entirely that I'm pure of heart - I'm also not that humble..:)

[Jack Flak]

Does it feel that way to men, also, or does it feel like empowerment?
When you only have 1% of your brain to work with, it doesn't really matter.

[nonsequitur]

? Why are you getting upset if you are so certain of your moral integrity?
Just because men/leaders/orks do it, doesn't make it right.
I don't make personal attacks. I merely said the behaviour is manipulative. I don't think that is in question. Different strokes for different folks. Wouldn't work for me is all.

I'm not upset, strangely enough. I'm quite amused, and wonder if I was this much of a sanctimonious jackass before I did my honours year. You do realise that you just compared me to someone whoring herself out for professional benefit. Which is really charming, actually. I don't know anyone who's ever done that before.

With regards to personal attack:
You said that I was sleazy. Ref. first post right there. And that my behavior was manipulative. i.e. I am a manipulative person, much like the "many women" who do similar things. Essentially, you reduced me to "manipulative women portrayed everywhere since the dawn of time" right there. When I pointed out that it was a stereotype, you said that "oh, even so, that's not right". i.e. you changed your line of logic, saying "it's STILL WRONG even if the stereotype doesn't hold". Your underlying attitude was, "I still think that even if it's the industry standard, you're still doing something wrong (even though I have no idea what it's actually like to have to pay bills, etc.)"

Further, the only thing that you assert is that "it's wrong" because "it's manipulative". As far as I can see, the only difference in that and "being honest" is in the means that I portray the information. What I convey is exactly the same; the difference is how I convey it. You can judge that to be "manipulative", but you haven't exactly backed up that claim beyond "it's what women have done since forever" and "you have no integrity".

I don't particularly care what you think about me, or even if you respect me, to be honest. I'm just pointing out the way that I'd go about dissecting people at work "being honest". Not that it'd do me any good at all.

[Ivy]

nonsequitur : bluemonday :: assertive : confrontational

[bluemonday]

I'm not ups