Holden Caulfield

[dynamiteninja]

The infamous protagonist of JD Salinger's classic novel, Catcher In The Rye.

Personally I always saw him as a kind of INFP, whilst having no clear idea of his type. This could be a case of most readers projecting their own type onto him? However I think that the author is typed as INFP, and authors tend to write from the point of view of people like themselves :)

Here goes:

I: Hates almost everyone he meets; I'm not saying that Is are anti-social, but they don't require as much social interaction as Es.
N: Constantly making connections, hates sport (Ns are more likely to dislike sport)
F: Always reacts with feelings to situations
P: Pretty much aimless, goes against the grain, hates his schools, runs away etc

However Holden is under some interpretations of the book, insane, at least by the end of the book, which could affect his projected personality.

[placebo]

Haven't read it in a while, but INFP I think. Quite disillusioned isn't he.

Oh and from wikipedia:

The boy himself is at once too simple and too complex for us to make any final comment about him or his story. Perhaps the safest thing we can say about Holden is that he was born in the world not just strongly attracted to beauty but, almost, hopelessly impaled on it.
—Original book jacket copy, possibly partially written by Salinger[1]

Totally, totally...

[Usehername]

I always saw him as an immature ENFP just about ready to start maturing.

[dynamiteninja]

I always saw him as an immature ENFP just about ready to start maturing.

What do you mean by that?

[Usehername]

What do you mean by that?

I mean you could tell he was beginning to start asking meaningful questions and get his life on track, but then he'd do something really stupid and knee-jerk and adolescent egocentric, etc.


He was beginning to be a healthy version of whatever his type was, but at the point of the story, he was still an adolescent egocentric and givethefingertotheman kinda kid.

ENFPs are said to be the most intraverted of the extraverts. Food for thought.

[Haphazard]

I always saw him as an ISTP.

A very, very fucked up ISTP.

[htb]

ISTP. A pretty normal one, actually.

[JivinJeffJones]

Definitely an XNFP imo, but I'm guessing he's an extravert despite the reclusive log-cabin fantasy. It exhausted me just reading the book how often he sought out people even when he'd finally reached a place of solitude. So I'm pegging him as an ENFP in the grip of a mighty fit of Fi. I really can't see him being a T at all.

[dynamiteninja]

I can see him as a fucked up ISTP, although he would seem quite a gregarious one. I think INFP fits better

[Haphazard]

Holden Caufield is pure bad Fe. Not a drop of Fi in 'im.

[JivinJeffJones]

Holden Caufield is pure bad Fe. Not a drop of Fi in 'im.

The thing he hates most about people is when they're phoney. That's very Fi. I can't see much Fe in him at all. Could you give examples to back up your mystifying assertions?

[Haphazard]

The thing he hates most about people is when they're phoney. I can't see much Fe in him at all. Could you give examples to back up your mystifying assertions?

He believes them to be phoney purely because of the way they act. He doesn't give consideration at all as to what's within them, except for Phoebe and that one girl, and even then his assertions are shallow...

I suppose if one takes him to be a reliable narrator, he's Fi, but if he's unreliable, he's totally, totally, totally bad Fe. Depends on interpretation. :devil:

[Magic Poriferan]

I haven't quite figured out any of the four letters yet, but I have determined that he is some kind of anoying bitch.

Enneagram-wise... almost surely a Four.

[JivinJeffJones]

He believes them to be phoney purely because of the way they act. He doesn't give consideration at all as to what's within them, except for Phoebe and that one girl, and even then his assertions are shallow...

I haven't read the book in a few years, so I can't treat this assertion with the crossreferenced disrespect that I'm pretty sure it deserves. But surely you can't call someone "phoney" without giving consideration to what's really within them? Since phoneyness is when the appearance doesn't seem to match the (internal) substance.

I suppose if one takes him to be a reliable narrator, he's Fi, but if he's unreliable, he's totally, totally, totally bad Fe. Depends on interpretation. :devil:

Tell me about this bad Fe then.

[Haphazard]

I haven't quite figured out any of the four letters yet, but I have determined that he is some kind of anoying bitch.

Enneagram-wise... almost surely a Four.

Caufield's MBTI Type: BRAT :nerd:

[Haphazard]

I haven't read the book in a few years, so I can't treat this assertion with the crossreferenced disrespect that I'm pretty sure it deserves. But surely you can't call someone "phoney" without giving consideration to what's really within them? Since phoneyness is when the appearance doesn't seem to match the (internal) substance.

But the point of the book is that this is exactly what he DOES.

The way he defines 'real' and 'phoney' are completely arbitrary and shallow. He has absolutely no acceptance for the fact that this is simply 'what people do' not for a defined moral reason but simply BECAUSE it is 'what people do.'

If he had had well-developed principles and complained about how they didn't match up to reality, then I would support the argument of him being an INFP, but he doesn't. The only way I can justify this negative thing being so much a part of his nature is if it were anima. It's obviously extroverted (and I couldn't imagine him as an ETJ), so he's some kind of ITP, and his antics were a lot more S than N, so ISTP.

And I just read the book a few months ago. This sort of thing is still relatively fresh in my mind...

An ISTP E4 is an unusual combination, but still possible, I suppose.

[dynamiteninja]

Holden's objections to people tends to be a clash of values. This lends itself to INFP. Would an ISTP really smash every window in the house if they were angry? Also, is ISTP really the type to run away from school?

[JivinJeffJones]

HH: I disagree with everything you just said, but I'll have to reread the book so I can remember exactly why I'm coming from where I'm coming from. Don't forget, however, that he's young and immature. I think that's where a lot of your confusion is coming from. And though I haven't read the book recently, I've read it about 4 or 5 times.

[Haphazard]

Would an ISTP really smash every window in the house if they were angry? Also, is ISTP really the type to run away from school?

...yes.

JJJ: My interpretations have no mercy. And why would he being 'young and immature' confuse me?

[JivinJeffJones]

And why would he being 'young and immature' confuse me?

Because this is quite common in immature Fi in my experience (especially the bolded):


The way he defines 'real' and 'phoney' are completely arbitrary and shallow. He has absolutely no acceptance for the fact that this is simply 'what people do' not for a defined moral reason but simply BECAUSE it is 'what people do.'

Yet you're taking it as evidence that he isn't an Fi user.

[dynamiteninja]

Holden Caulfield is an Idealist. He constantly has high expectations and events or people fail to live up to them, causing him frustration. See also, the grafitti on his sister's school wall. He attempts to preserve the minds of the young children. He is NF.

[Haphazard]

Because this is quite common in immature Fi in my experience (especially the bolded):

Yet you're taking it as evidence that he isn't an Fi user.

If he were an Fi DOMINANT, then Fi would be his most mature function. :doh:

Unless you are trying to tell me that at 16, he's not responsible for one shred of maturity, in which case I'd guess he'd have developmental issues, in which case we shouldn't even be trying to type him in the first place.

[JivinJeffJones]

If he were an Fi DOMINANT, then Fi would be his most mature function. :doh:

I never said he was Fi dominant. My claim is that he's an ENFP, which would make him Ne dominant. And the Fi types tend to look very immature in their dealings with values at a young age. Very prone to go the Emo/goth route. Angst and more angst. Fi lends itself to a very simplistic view of the world at a young age. All idealism does, I guess.

[Haphazard]

I never said he was Fi dominant. My claim is that he's an ENFP, which would make him Ne dominant. And the Fi types tend to look very immature in their dealings with values at a young age. Very prone to go the Emo/goth route. Angst and more angst. Fi lends itself to a very simplistic view of the world at a young age. All idealism does, I guess.

And other types cannot do this?

[Edahn]

ISFP, but I haven't read it in years

[CaptainChick]

INFP or ENFP, no ifs ands or buts!!!

Seriously!!!!

[Haphazard]

I can't believe that you guys think INFPs have a monopoly on this stuff...

[CaptainChick]

Definitely an XNFP imo, but I'm guessing he's an extravert despite the reclusive log-cabin fantasy. It exhausted me just reading the book how often he sought out people even when he'd finally reached a place of solitude. So I'm pegging him as an ENFP in the grip of a mighty fit of Fi. I really can't see him being a T at all.
Cha-ching!!!

Spot on!!!

[Jack Flak]

I can't believe that you guys think INFPs have a monopoly on this stuff...
Seconded! As long as Fs get to have thoughts, Ts get to have feelings.

[CaptainChick]

Oy vey!!!

Holden is an _NFP!!!

How many times have you guys read the book?

How deep of an impact did it have on you???

[Jack Flak]

I've never read it. I was responding to Haphazard's post only.

[Haphazard]

Oy vey!!!

Holden is an _NFP!!!

How many times have you guys read the book?

How deep of an impact did it have on you???

No... he's not an NFP.

See, this is why I fail literature classes. Because my interpretations are always WRONG. Even though they say that I won't be told that my interpretations are ever flat-out WRONG. They are liars.

He sounds like no NFPs I've met. He sounds like the ISTPs I've met, however. Unless you want to argue that he's full of crazy by the beginning of the book, in which case I don't really think we can try to type him...

[strawberryfields]

I think he's an xNFP, leaning more towards I than E by just a little. I adore that book, and read it six times within the first year of picking it up, and I did my english research project on it when I was at school and got full marks. (I am not saying that to say 'whoa I'm awesome!' I just mean I think people *can* have a different perspective to you, and know the book well.)

I'm an NFP and I identified with him, certainly. I think calling him an S is to totally misunderstand him. A huge element of that book is that Holden is confused and lost, since he is asking big questions about the world and not finding answers. Think of the ever famous ducks; Holden is asking questions about them because on an intuitive level he feels a connection with them. He desperately seeks to 'connect' with people, and Mr Antolini is clearly an N and that is a teacher who's had a great deal of influence over him. Holden despises 'phoniness' and part of that is shallowness and convention. Of course he fails to truly grapple with peoples motives, and ironically is a bit of a hypocrite as a result, but I think J.D Salinger wants to portray Holden as someone who in a sense realises he's a hypocrite. He feels lost in the world and isolates himself by feeling different to everyone else and labelling it because of their phoniness. But his insights can be incredibly perceptive -particularly about people - and he obviously has a lot of depth. He loves fiction and getting caught up in another world through reading a book, again that seems fairly NF to me; escapism through literature.

I think he's an NF; he seems to fit the idealist portrait. He's obviously highly traumatised by the death of his younger brother, and has an emotional response to that (smashing all the windows in the garage). He has a strong sense of how the world 'ought' to be, and has a deep caring side which is demonstrated in how he treats his sister and the fact at regular times in the book there are people who he empathises and sympathises with (the Head teachers daughter, Ackley, Jane). Holden really values the nuns for altruistically caring for others, and what he perceives as authenticity; desire for authenticity is very NF.

In terms of I/E, I think it's difficult to tell because Holden is depressed and that has a natural impact on whether or not you appear extroverted. He certainly has extroverted traits; he seeks out the company of others throughout the book, sometimes people he doesn't even know very well, and obviously has a wide circle of acquaintances. However, I think part of that is in hope they will elucidate things for him and help him to understand why he is as he is, and at other times he simply wants distraction from how bad he feels. I think he's possibly an I though, since he's very introspective, wants time alone, reads a lot, sometimes can't be bothered with humanity as a whole, and seeks deep meaningful connections on a one-on-one level. I think he is hesitant to share his inner world with others, which can also be an introverted thing. I am not sure socialising for the sake of socialising would appeal to him. The log cabin fantasy at the end could be seen as an introverted thing, but I think that's his idea of the ultimate way of cutting himself off from humanity in order to avoid pain. There's a great paradox throughout the book; Holden longs for people to understand and accept him, but equally he despises many elements of the human condition and isolates himself from people. He spends the book vacillating between the two, hence E/I being difficult to determine.

I see nobody has questioned if he's a P, I think that's pretty self-evident :)

I think this book is grossly misunderstood. Teenagers who say 'I love Holden, finally someone who understands me!' and adults who say 'What a whiny brat', in my opinion, miss J.D Salinger's point. I don't think J.D Salinger is endorsing everything Holden says. You're *meant* to recognise that Holden is a bit of a hypocrite and isolating himself from the world through a pseudo-superiority complex. I think you're meant to look beyond that and question why he is so lost, and it particularly relates back to unexpressed grief regarding his brother and other traumatic events. I can genuinely say that 'The Catcher in the Rye' is the only fictional book to change my life, not 'cause I agreed with Holden, but cause I saw elements of himself he was blind to that related to moi.

It's quite pathetic how defensive I get when people criticise Holden Caulfield, I just want to give him a hug.

[Haphazard]

I tip my hat to Strawberries. She wins the thread.

[JivinJeffJones]

I tip my hat to Strawberries. She wins the thread.

Excellent. Because I can't find my copy of CITR and frankly it was all a bit too much effort for this P to go through to prove you wrong anyway. ;)

[Haphazard]

Excellent. Because I can't find my copy of CITR and frankly it was all a bit too much effort for this P to go through to prove you wrong anyway. ;)

Oh, I'm not saying she proved me wrong, I'm saying that she's the first one here that actually made some very good points.

[CaptainChick]

Oh, I'm not saying she proved me wrong, I'm saying that she's the first one here that actually made some very good points.
That's it!!!

:azdaja:

I have officially pulled out my O.G. copy!!!

Brace yourself and prepare to be thoroughly defeated!!!!

:nerd:

[Haphazard]

That's it!!!

:azdaja:

I have officially pulled out my O.G. copy!!!

Brace yourself and prepare to be thoroughly defeated!!!!

:nerd:

Bring it.

You seem to be forgetting that INTJ is shorthand for 'incorrigible being.'

[JivinJeffJones]

Oh, I'm not saying she proved me wrong, I'm saying that she's the first one here that actually made some very good points.

I see. So when you said "wins the thread", you didn't actually mean wins the thread. Gotcha. :doh:

[Haphazard]

I see. So when you said "wins the thread", you didn't actually mean wins the thread. Gotcha. :doh:

I mean, when somebody says "wins the internet", do they actually get the internet delivered to them on their doorstep the next day?

Because if you do, I'm still waiting on it.

[CaptainChick]

Bring it.

You seem to be forgetting that INTJ is shorthand for 'incorrigible being.'
I have an exam tomorrow on three chapters in which I have yet to read, so I will be a bit delayed in my bringing it and hence beating the incorrigibleness out of your very being, so enjoy your throne of righteous ignorance while you can.

:smooch:

[JivinJeffJones]

I mean, when somebody says "wins the internet", do they actually get the internet delivered to them on their doorstep the next day?

Because if you do, I'm still waiting on it.

:huh:

[CaptainChick]

OMG!!!!

FUCK, I AM SUPPOSED TO BE STUDYING!!!!

I already have five _NFP money excerpts and I have only gone through 60 pages.

SOOOOOOOOOO GOOD!!!

Gah!!!

Nostalgia.

[Haphazard]

CaptainChick, why did this book change your life?

[CaptainChick]

CaptainChick, why did this book change your life?
It didn't change my life but it did have a profound affect on me. (lol, so perhaps it did)

I was 16 when I first read it and I read it in one sitting, taking my time with it, rereading passages that I found to be almost eerily comforting and familiar. I identified with Holden to such an extent that it was the first time that I *truly* felt connected to someone.

I understood him, I felt him, and he was not crazy but in fact was rather quite sane!!!

As an idealist, the existential depression that ensued after my "fall from innocence" was an incredibly painful one, and this pain was not in vain, for I was not the only one...

An intelligent idealist is an agonizing thing to be at times.

The older we become, the less real and authentic our lives become.

Gah, Fi overload, to be continued...

[Haphazard]

You identified with Holden Caufield?

...I'm sorry.

[strawberryfields]

How disappointing, when you said I won the thread I was going to say "Who says INTJ's can't admit when they're wrong?" ;)

I identified with Holden Caulfield too, to a degree, and I don't need any sympathy. Merci for saying I made some good points :) I am fully open to the idea you disagree with me on good merit, but I'd like it if you substantiated your position that he's an ISTP with reference to the book. I'm also presuming you disagreed with some of the conclusions I reached since I think he's an NFP, which bits did you disagree with?

Oh dear my laptop just burned my leg... never good!

[Haphazard]

How disappointing, when you said I won the thread I was going to say "Who says INTJ's can't admit when they're wrong?" ;)

Ah, there we go again! My claims can be 'unsubstantiated,' but it would be well, wrong, to call them wrong.

I identified with Holden Caulfield too, to a degree, and I don't need any sympathy. Merci for saying I made some good points :) I am fully open to the idea you disagree with me on good merit, but I'd like it if you substantiated your position that he's an ISTP with reference to the book. I'm also presuming you disagreed with some of the conclusions I reached since I think he's an NFP, which bits did you disagree with?


Okay, where to start...

I think he's an xNFP, leaning more towards I than E by just a little. I adore that book, and read it six times within the first year of picking it up, and I did my english research project on it when I was at school and got full marks. (I am not saying that to say 'whoa I'm awesome!' I just mean I think people *can* have a different perspective to you, and know the book well.)

I'm an NFP and I identified with him, certainly. I think calling him an S is to totally misunderstand him.

NFP would mean that he had Ne. I see a lot more Se than Ne. He's more an opportunist in nature than what I've seen of Ne types (particularly INPs).

A huge element of that book is that Holden is confused and lost, since he is asking big questions about the world and not finding answers. Think of the ever famous ducks; Holden is asking questions about them because on an intuitive level he feels a connection with them. He desperately seeks to 'connect' with people, and Mr Antolini is clearly an N and that is a teacher who's had a great deal of influence over him.

And yet he immediately runs when he starts to think that he's a 'flit'. For the connection to be broken so easily doesn't seem, well, very NFP-ish.

Holden despises 'phoniness' and part of that is shallowness and convention. Of course he fails to truly grapple with peoples motives, and ironically is a bit of a hypocrite as a result, but I think J.D Salinger wants to portray Holden as someone who in a sense realises he's a hypocrite. He feels lost in the world and isolates himself by feeling different to everyone else and labelling it because of their phoniness. But his insights can be incredibly perceptive -particularly about people -

He is? :shock: What I saw was a closed system, when he thought about people.

and he obviously has a lot of depth. He loves fiction and getting caught up in another world through reading a book, again that seems fairly NF to me; escapism through literature.

I think he's an NF; he seems to fit the idealist portrait. He's obviously highly traumatised by the death of his younger brother, and has an emotional response to that (smashing all the windows in the garage).

Having an emotional response like this I don't think can be monopolized by NF types.

He has a strong sense of how the world 'ought' to be,

Introverted judgment. IxxP.

and has a deep caring side which is demonstrated in how he treats his sister and the fact at regular times in the book there are people who he empathises and sympathises with (the Head teachers daughter, Ackley, Jane). Holden really values the nuns for altruistically caring for others, and what he perceives as authenticity; desire for authenticity is very NF.

In terms of I/E, I think it's difficult to tell because Holden is depressed and that has a natural impact on whether or not you appear extroverted. He certainly has extroverted traits; he seeks out the company of others throughout the book, sometimes people he doesn't even know very well, and obviously has a wide circle of acquaintances. However, I think part of that is in hope they will elucidate things for him and help him to understand why he is as he is, and at other times he simply wants distraction from how bad he feels. I think he's possibly an I though, since he's very introspective, wants time alone, reads a lot, sometimes can't be bothered with humanity as a whole, and seeks deep meaningful connections on a one-on-one level. I think he is hesitant to share his inner world with others, which can also be an introverted thing. I am not sure socialising for the sake of socialising would appeal to him. The log cabin fantasy at the end could be seen as an introverted thing, but I think that's his idea of the ultimate way of cutting himself off from humanity in order to avoid pain. There's a great paradox throughout the book; Holden longs for people to understand and accept him, but equally he despises many elements of the human condition and isolates himself from people. He spends the book vacillating between the two, hence E/I being difficult to determine.

I see nobody has questioned if he's a P, I think that's pretty self-evident :)

I think this book is grossly misunderstood. Teenagers who say 'I love Holden, finally someone who understands me!' and adults who say 'What a whiny brat', in my opinion, miss J.D Salinger's point. I don't think J.D Salinger is endorsing everything Holden says. You're *meant* to recognise that Holden is a bit of a hypocrite and isolating himself from the world through a pseudo-superiority complex. I think you're meant to look beyond that and question why he is so lost, and it particularly relates back to unexpressed grief regarding his brother and other traumatic events. I can genuinely say that 'The Catcher in the Rye' is the only fictional book to change my life, not 'cause I agreed with Holden, but cause I saw elements of himself he was blind to that related to moi.

This last part made me very happy. :)

I know this isn't very substantial... but let me try to state my point.

His voice sounds like an ISTP. I can't quite put my finger on why. He takes advantage of everything he finds (except for girls -- and I think the only reason why he seems 'extroverted' at all is because of this). I know there's the stereotype that STPs don't read, but I know enough to know otherwise. They can end up in existentialism...

Now there's the question as to where the trauma came from. I guess one could say that it was all his little brother, but I got the impression that it was more diffuse than that. His brother may have started the spiral, but after that it just got worse.

What I see is that the guy had a framework that developed a few cracks when his brother died, and then it just got weaker and weaker from there, until it finally just broke, and he was still trying to use it (thus the constant hypocrisy).

Whether this original framework was more Fi or Ti with a layer of awful Fe over it, I can't tell. The thing is that I just don't see any standards as to how Caufield's approval can be reached. If there is Fi, there must be Te -- no matter how awful or corrupted.

I wonder if I make any sense?

[Magic Poriferan]

You identified with Holden Caufield?

...I'm sorry.

That is the fundamental answer as to why anyone likes that book, that they "identify" with it. That is by far the most common response when asked why the book is good, and I've never heard it said even remotely as often about any other book, or story at all for that matter.

That's fascinating and confusing to me. I didn't relate to Holden much at all, and I kind of hated him. It's not a very long book, but I slogged through it in like two weeks. Characters aside, I thought the whole story was really boring and hated the way it was told. But anyway, my ENFP friend says it's one of her favorite books and (surprise, surprise) she said she had this "I'm not alone moment" when she first read it. I then told her that I found Holden insufferably irritating in his hypocracy, inconsistency, and lack of reasoning. I also thought he was self-absorbed.

The main things I and Holden seemed to have in common is that we both hated society, and felt a lot of frustration, but that's it. Those are only two, rather general things. Our way of handling those opinions are entirely different. One of my theories is that being home-schooled has made it harder for me to connect with him. Maybe his experiences with public school and it's impact on his life (which is apparently very large) is one of the things that people relate to, and it's one that I obviously wouldn't know. One thing that struck me as funny though, was that my friend defended a number of Holden's character flaws by saying "he's only seventeen". I said, "yeah?..."
I was eighteen when I read the book, and I could tell you I was more mature than Holden when I was fifteen...

[CaptainChick]

FWIW: My INTJ best friend in high school absolutely loved Catcher in the Rye , too.

"Take cars," I said. I said it in this very quiet voice. "Take most people, they're crazy about cars. They worry if they get a little scratch on them, and they're always talking about how many miles they get to a gallon, and if they get a brand-new car already they start thinking about trading it in for one that's even newer. I don't even like old cars. I mean they don't even interest me. I'd rather have a goddamn horse. A horse is at least human, for God's sake. A horse you can at least-"

"I don't know what you're even talking about," old Sally said. " You jump from one-"

<more dialog>

""You ought to go to a boy' school sometime. Try it sometime," I said. " It's full of phonies, and all you do is study so you can learn enough to be smart enough to be able to buy a goddamn Cadillac some day, and you have to keep making believe you give a damn if the football team loses, and all you do is talk about girls and liquor and sex all day, and everybody sticks together in these dirty little goddamn cliques. The guys that are on the basketball team stick together, the Catholics stick together, the goddamn intellectuals stick together, the guys that play bridge stick together. Even the guys that belong to the goddamn Book-of-the-Month Club stick together. If you try to have a little intelligent-"

[CaptainChick]

I'm not too sure what the name of the song was that he was playing when I came in, but whatever it was, he was really stinking it up. He was putting all these dumb, show-offy ripples in the high notes, and a lot of other very tricky stuff that gives me a pain in the ass. You should've heard the crowd, though, when he was finished. You would've puked. They went mad. *They were exactly the same morons that laugh like hyenas in the movies at stuff that isn't funny.* I swear to God, if I were a piano player or an actor or something and all those dopes thought I was terrific, I'd hate it. I wouldn't even want them to clap for me. *People always clap for the wrong things*

If I were a piano player, I'd play it in the goddamn closet.

[Haphazard]

One thing that struck me as funny though, was that my friend defended a number of Holden's character flaws by saying "he's only seventeen". I said, "yeah?..."
I was eighteen when I read the book, and I could tell you I was more mature than Holden when I was fifteen...

I tend to not identify with people.

I read this book for the second time at 16 -- I can't really count the first time because I was too young. But even so, I do not identify with him.

It's more disgust and pity towards the character I feel. But mostly... pity. And it's not easy to earn my pity.

And CaptainChick, if it pleases, will you tell me what the Hell you're doing?

[CaptainChick]

Lol, I am prepping. I am going to analyze those in a sec.

And lol, my close friend in high school couldn't stand Holden and neither could my English teacher.

The truth is this, there is in fact a select few of us human beings who are, for reasons unknown, genetically predisposed and hard-wired towards being empathetic idealists.

Sensitive souls do not fare well in this cold, industrialized, bureaucratic, super colony we call modern civilization.

When you actually care about people and things, and the inherent fucked-upness and seemingly endless human suffering deeply lodged and integrated in a society that basically functions and operates on dissociating its people from one and other into foreign and discrete factions in order for designated people to exploit "other" designated people strictly for selfish gain from just far enough of a distance so as to not affect everyone's ability to sleep at night, well, when you care in a system that cares not for you or anything really, that is, to say the very least, incredibly difficult to bite, swallow and chew.

Tangent, sorry :/

[Magic Poriferan]

I strenously object to the notion that I do not have empathy, ideals, or an awareness of how much is wrong in the world, just because I despise Holden Caulfield. His conceit and his inability to critical analyze his own personality (and largely that of others, to tell you the truth) is one of the things I dislike about him. It has little to do with him being empathic or idealistic.

[CaptainChick]

Oy vey, you just love jumping to (false) conclusions, doncha MP!!!

[Haphazard]

Holden Caufield is stuck in an infinite loop. He does not know enough to get out, and he does not know how he got in -- in fact, he does not know he's stuck at all. And yet, there he is, slowly losing everything, intensely aware of every stinging pain yet oblivious to those he inflicts on others...

There is a time to cry, and there is a time to at least try to pick one's self up. All he's succeeds in doing is hurting himself and systematically locking himself in further.

He has two exits: maturity, or death. By the fact that he ends up in therapy, the best part of it is that he ends up with the better exit... but then again, you never know.

There is no sign of anything gained when he's telling the story. He just says that he ends up sick and in therapy... there are no embellishments to the story to give the impression that he's learned anything. So, I cannot help but pity him.

[OneWithSoul]

I tend to think of him maybe as an INFP, but I hear what everyone's saying..