E vs I and Hormones

[nolla]

I watched this documentary about testosterone and how it affects behavior. Nothing new really, but it got me thinking that many of the traits related to high testosterone are also related to MBTIs extroverted types.

Basically it goes like this. When you are in the womb, your body starts pumping up the testosterone at a certain point. If the level is high, you end up being a boy, if the level is low, you are girl. After this the hormone plays a big role at puberty.

So I'm thinking, could the womb testosterone level be the crucial factor in making you extrovert? Or, are these two things linked in other ways? Are there studies?

If it was so, it wouldn't mean that every introvert is a low testosterone guy, since after you are born your mind already is set to a certain behavior but your bodys testosterone level is affected by your surroundings.

(I'm not too sure how this would work out for a girl, though)

[Jennifer]

I watched this documentary about testosterone and how it affects behavior. Nothing new really, but it got me thinking that many of the traits related to high testosterone are also related to MBTIs extroverted types.

Basically it goes like this. When you are in the womb, your body starts pumping up the testosterone at a certain point. If the level is high, you end up being a boy, if the level is low, you are girl.

A little sloppy of an assessment.

It's true that the androgens virilize you as male. Those XY males who are androgen-insensitive will proceed along an externally female path physically even if they have crudely developed testes inside.

There are many things that can derail this process.

So I'm thinking, could the womb testosterone level be the crucial factor in making you extrovert? Or, are these two things linked in other ways? Are there studies?

Even just logically thinking through it, it doesn't seem like that would be the case.

What testosterone does is make you more aggressive and/or direct in your approach with the world. I don't think that's the same as "extroversion," although you would be extroverting your desires actively.

If it was so, it wouldn't mean that every introvert is a low testosterone guy, since after you are born your mind already is set to a certain behavior but your body's testosterone level is affected by your surroundings.

This concept sounds like it has a lot of holes in it.

What of extroverted women who might be more extroverted than extroverted men? They certainly do not have MORE testosterone than the male(s). That in itself is enough to derail this way of thinking. I'd recommend more reading on the actual impact of testosterone in human behavior, in general.

[nolla]

Yes, it is hazy, I admit. I'm just interested if there is anyone out here who has tried to link these two. I don't understand anything about hormones (except the common knowledge). But, MBTI is a way to box behaviors and the hormones are what make some behavior patterns to come forward, right? So, there should be some connection..?

What of extroverted women who might be more extroverted than extroverted men? They certainly do not have MORE testosterone than the male(s). That in itself is enough to derail this way of thinking. I'd recommend more reading on the actual impact of testosterone in human behavior, in general.

Yeah, this is a tough one. I don't know. Could the relative level of testosterone for a girl be an answer?

[Haphazard]

Yeah, this is a tough one. I don't know. Could the relative level of testosterone for a girl be an answer?

No. You would be able to tell because the most extroverted girls would be much hairier, and this is certainly not the case.

[Nocapszy]

A little sloppy of an assessment.

It's true that the androgens virilize you as male. Those XY males who are androgen-insensitive will proceed along an externally female path physically even if they have crudely developed testes inside.

There are many things that can derail this process. Interesting...
Hmmm...
Yes...

To my knowledge, which is admittedly limited, that doesn't happen very often.
I mean you're right, but it seems odd to use something so obscure in a rebuttal.
Maybe a personal factor has heightened your awareness of the phenomenon?


Even just logically thinking through it, it doesn't seem like that would be the case. Yeah... that would mean all women are Is right? That's... not even close.


This concept sounds like it has a lot of holes in it. Just like all of psychology. Who's idea was it to make physical correlations with any kind of archetypes anyway? This isn't the first time I've heard of this kind of stuff.

[nolla]

No. You would be able to tell because the most extroverted girls would be much hairier, and this is certainly not the case.

:) Well, yeah, I guess. But, this doesn't explain why the high testosterone "alpha males" are definitely extroverted.

[Jack Flak]

I don't think your theory holds water, personally, but there's no argument that hormones control personality. For example, healthy females with a preference for Thinking are more ruled by emotion than healthy "T" males. Estrogen.

[nolla]

Who's idea was it to make physical correlations with any kind of archetypes anyway?

MINE! :yes:

This isn't the first time I've heard of this kind of stuff.

You haven't seen it here. I searched. There wasn't any topic named anything close to this one.

[Haphazard]

:) Well, yeah, I guess. But, this doesn't explain why the high testosterone "alpha males" are definitely extroverted.

"Alpha male"-dom has to do with aggressiveness, not introversion versus extroversion. Not all extroverts are aggressive, and certainly not all introverts are passive -- however, introverts tend not to be aggressive unless things fall onto 'their turf,' and a passive extrovert will still be more aware and interacting with the world around them (though not forcing it).

Extroversion would be a plus if trying to manage a pack, but it's certainly not the only factor in becoming an 'alpha.' Remember, there are a lot of extroverts out there, but only a few alphas.

[nolla]

I don't think your theory holds water, personally, but there's no argument that hormones control personality.

I don't have a theory. I just want to know how they are related, if they are related.

For example, healthy females with a preference for Thinking are more ruled by emotion than healthy "T" males. Estrogen.

This is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. You are saying that the ultimate thinker needs to be a man, basically. Quite a claim. Interesting.

[Jack Flak]

This is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. You are saying that the ultimate thinker needs to be a man, basically. Quite a claim. Interesting.
I would much appreciate not to have controversial statements which never crossed my mind extrapolated from my post and credited to me.

[booyalab]

For example, healthy females with a preference for Thinking are more ruled by emotion than healthy "T" males. Estrogen.
Unless you count anger and lust as emotions.

[Jack Flak]

It's a fuckin' tightrope, Spud.

[nolla]

"Alpha male"-dom has to do with aggressiveness, not introversion versus extroversion. Not all extroverts are aggressive, and certainly not all introverts are passive -- however, introverts tend not to be aggressive unless things fall onto 'their turf,' and a passive extrovert will still be more aware and interacting with the world around them (though not forcing it).

Extroversion would be a plus if trying to manage a pack, but it's certainly not the only factor in becoming an 'alpha.' Remember, there are a lot of extroverts out there, but only a few alphas.

Ok, sounds right.

I would much appreciate not to have controversial statements which never crossed my mind extrapolated from my post and credited to me.

Well, I think it was already somewhat controversial. Might be true, though. But, anyways, testosterone is also linked to irrational behavior, so, the ultimate thinker wouldn't be alpha male either.

[CzeCze]

Calm down Max, and fix the hair. You waaaaaaay over did it on the gel. ;)

I think the flesh the theory out more, you'd need to look at the effects of testosterone on otherwise 'testosterone level normal' women.

Testosterone is attributed with producing higher levels of energy and higher libido in women. In fact, testosterone therapy can be prescribed by doctors for middle aged women for these 'conditions' and there are bootleg and mail order varieties of testosterone for women. I think even in those 'forever young' clinics testosterone can be used to maintain a 'youthful vitality' in patients - both male and female. T is also being looked at for its diet/metabolism effects in women as well as men.

Also, 'overdosing' on T is attributed with irritability, short tempers, territoriality - basically standard 'alpha male' symptoms. The funny thing is when women get like that, we're called 'overly sensitive'. :laugh:

Also, even in women who produce higher levels of testosterone (naturally) the levels of testosterone are WAY lower than the baseline levels for a man. Even in women who take 'performanc enhancing drugs' to affect their hormone levels, you'd probably find their T levels are still much lower than the average males. So low that if they were men, they'd be put on T therapy to bring it up to 'normal levels'.

So you're still not really comparing apples to apples.

I will say though that I think T and any other drug or hormone that makes you more alert and energetic will lend itself massively to any extroverted tendencies you may have (think about overdosing on caffeine pills!)

I think that level of alertness can seem like confidence.

Also, if you can attribute all that to testosterone,I wold wonder -- how much of your 'extraverting' is actually you and your personality and how much of it is 'hormones'? But then, what are people if not (at least) the sum of all their parts?

[Jack Flak]

Here is some information regarding the effects of hormones on emotional states (it even mentions extroversion) in the transgendered. Taken from: IJ TRANSGENDER - Effects of Cross-Sex Hormone Treatment on Emotionality in Transsexuals (http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtvo05no03_02.htm)

Effects of cross-sex hormone treatment on emotional functioning

Little is known about the influence of cross-sex hormones on the psychological functioning of transsexuals. Although physical changes during hormone treatment are thoroughly documented, research on psychological changes has lagged behind. In a review of 30 years of studies on the psychological functioning of transsexuals (Lothstein, 1984), it was concluded that, prior to hormone therapy, MtFs, when compared to FtMs, were less stable and showed more psychopathology. However, after the start of hormone treatment during the 'real-life' test, the emotional stability of MtFs clearly increased, a process which continued until after the sex reassignment (Lothstein, 1984). This emotional adjustment, as a result of a decrease of depression and psychastenia, has been ascribed to the direct effects of the estrogen treatment (Leavitt et al., 1980). In keeping with these observations, others (Van Kemanade et al., 1989) observed an increase in energy and relaxation after eight weeks of anti-androgen treatment in MtFs, and a decrease in feelings of fear and exhaustion. In a large study, the psychological functioning of three groups of transsexuals were compared, before, during and after their sex reassignment (Kuiper, 1991). MtFs in the pre-treatment phase showed as much somatization as MtFs during and after their sex reassignment, whereas FtMs somatized less during and after sex reassignment than pre-treatment FtMs. Also, the further the sex reassignment had proceeded in these three groups, the more extrovert FtMs were, and the less extroversion was observed in MtFs. In general, transsexuals who had finished sex reassignment were more content than those who were still going through the process, and the latter group were more content than those who had not yet begun sex reassignment. Occasionally, shortly after the onset of hormone therapy, MtFs experience increased feelings of lability and depression. This phenomenon has been ascribed to the direct influence of hormone treatment (Asscheman and Gooren, 1992): the rapid rise of the estrogen level in the early stages of hormone treatment causing sudden changes in hormone levels. After stabilisation MtFs supposedly experience an emotional adjustment to estrogen.

It has been suggested more recently that there is a direct relationship between exogenous sex hormones and sex-specific behavior in both MtFs and FtMs (Van Goozen et al., 1995). After three months of cross-gender sex hormone treatment, MtFs showed a decrease in irritability and sexual arousability. After three months of androgen-intake, FtMs became more prone to anger and aggression, and their sexual motivation and arousability increased. According to their diaries, in which they reported their feelings on a daily basis, neither group experienced remarkable mood swings. However, MtFs reported more mood swings than FtMs, showing a peak in the second month.

While many studies have focused on the relationship between sex hormones and emotionality in general, little is known about how affect intensity is influenced. It has been found that women experience emotional reactions to both negative and positive life events more intensively than do men (Larsen and Diener, 1987; Manstead, 1992). Furthermore, there are indications that the non-verbal emotional expressiveness of women is greater than that of men (Friedman et al., 1980; Reinisch and Sanders, 1986; Manstead, 1992). In contrast, the anger intensity is reported to be more pronounced in men than in women (Reinisch and Sanders, 1986; Gladue and Bailey, 1995). The purpose of the present study was to investigate whether cross-sex hormones influence affect intensity of negative and positive emotions in general, thereby addressing aggressive feelings, anger readiness, and non-verbal emotional expressiveness in particular. We predicted that affect intensity and non-verbal emotional expressiveness would increase in MtFs and would decrease in FtMs as a result of their hormone treatments.

It was found that testosterone therapy in FtMs clearly stimulated aggression and sexual feelings, and had a diminishing effect on their affect intensity in general. Although FtMs derive large benefits from their sex reassignment, they seemed to be less emotionally susceptible to either positive or negative life events, but more to situations with a provocative or sexual content. In contrast, the influence of estrogen treatment in MtFs was less clear. Although their sensitivity to negative life events remained high over time, they reported experiencing more positive feelings, and they were more emotionally expressive and anger prone, after the start of hormone treatment. None of these results could be attributed to the fact that transsexuals changed in a manner they believed to be stereotypical of their desired sex or according to their expectations.

In a small subgroup of six FtMs that we intensively examined on a daily basis, rapid physical changes were found after the start of testosterone therapy. Feelings of depression, irritation, impulsiveness, well being, withdrawal, tiredness, and sexual interest did not vary systematically with changing testosterone levels during the two-week cycle of hormone treatment. However, sexual behavior clearly occurred more frequently seven to ten days after Free Testosterone levels were at their maximum (the so called FT-peak, approximately two days after testosterone injection). It is therefore suggested that testosterone has a delayed effect on sexuality.

[substitute]

Yeah, I was gonna correct the sloppiness of the OP but I see Jennifer did a grand job, so I'll leave that for the time being.

All I can say is that I've been on stupidly high doses of testosterone for over 6 years now and all those stereotypical traits seem to have passed me by... though the body changes have indeed taken place as scheduled. I haven't become any more competitive or aggressive than I ever was before - in fact, most people remark that I've become a heck of a lot LESS aggressive, more positive, more energetic and enthusiastic.

Jack - there is evidence of hormones controlling personality, lots of it. The transsexual community is ripe with people who, having had just one hormone changed for another, usually tend to look back at their own past and find they can't even relate to their own actions or choices, who take up totally different interests, lose old interests and can't imagine any longer what they used to see in them, and behave towards others in entirely different ways. Sorry :)

I know a number of women in a local PCOS support group who suffer with heightened levels of testosterone... and they tend to be some of the calmest women I've ever met... lol

[Jack Flak]

Jack - there is evidence of hormones controlling personality, lots of it...... Sorry :)
It sounds like you're agreeing with me, but finish with "Sorry." Pardon? I think one of us has misread something.

[substitute]

I was disagreeing with your earlier post. I didn't see that one yet... sorry (snicker) :D

but it's not true as in that article that "little is known". Actually a huge amount is known, just not by the official scientific community, because although there is ample data out there waiting for them to collect it, nobody's done the official research. but those who live amongst it all have plenty of experience and face to face opportunities to know far more than "little" about it :)

[Jack Flak]

I was disagreeing with your earlier post. I didn't see that one yet... sorry (snicker) :D
In retrospect, I realize I used poor phrasing, but what I meant to say was "There is no arguing against the fact that hormones control personality."

[Night]

"There is no arguing against the fact that hormones control personality."

Precisely correct.

External factors influence, but internal biochemistry is ultimately responsible for personality traits.

[substitute]

Precisely correct.

External factors influence, but internal biochemistry is ultimately responsible for personality traits.

...by the same token, I think the reason why I've been less aggressive since I've been injected with testosterone regularly is that before, I was stupidly aggressive and that aggression was largely due to the frustration I felt with living my life in the wrong gender, both the internal and external effects of that (ie both other people treating me 'wrong' AND just feeling completely confused in my own head). When my new life began, none of that was a problem any more, so I chilled out a whole lot more.

[Nocapszy]

Precisely correct.

External factors influence, but internal biochemistry is ultimately responsible for personality traits.

What do you speculated triggers the internal biochemical reactions?

[YourLocalJesus]

I watched this documentary about testosterone and how it affects behavior. Nothing new really, but it got me thinking that many of the traits related to high testosterone are also related to MBTIs extroverted types.

Basically it goes like this. When you are in the womb, your body starts pumping up the testosterone at a certain point. If the level is high, you end up being a boy, if the level is low, you are girl. After this the hormone plays a big role at puberty.

So I'm thinking, could the womb testosterone level be the crucial factor in making you extrovert? Or, are these two things linked in other ways? Are there studies?

If it was so, it wouldn't mean that every introvert is a low testosterone guy, since after you are born your mind already is set to a certain behavior but your bodys testosterone level is affected by your surroundings.

(I'm not too sure how this would work out for a girl, though)


Actually, i don't think this has much to do with it. I have a friend who has recently tested his testosterone level(yesterday I think?), and it was sky-high. And I could never, ever have guessed. He's IXTJ. Very, very introverted. He lives in the flat above me, and I've known him since I didn't have a beard (<14). He's got some real feminine sides. :huh: His apartment looks like an IKEA type example, very vain, removes all body hair all the time (even on his head!). ETC. This is just one example, but I don't really see the correlation between hormones and extroversion/introversion.

[Night]

What do you speculated triggers the internal biochemical reactions?

Sorry, Nocaps.

I should have specified that I was referring to inborn biochemistry - the webbing that we're created with, as the catalyst for external behavior.

[nolla]

So... we agree they make the personality but don't have any idea how?

[Night]

Speak for yourself, nolla.

[TheLastMohican]

When you are in the womb, your body starts pumping up the testosterone at a certain point. If the level is high, you end up being a boy, if the level is low, you are girl.

Isn't sex determined by the DNA of the sperm? I thought you are either male or female according to your chromosomes starting at conception.