The order of your functions

[animenagai]

i don't just mean the 4 you get in the literature in your type, i mean the other 4 as well. i've been trying to figure out if we can formulate a general rule for all 8 functions for particular types, so if you will, post your order of the 8 functions (loosely). mine's something like Ne, Fi, Fe, Ni, Ti, Se, Te, Si.

[nonsequitur]

Ni, Ti, Fi, Ne, Te, Se, Si, Fe.

Yes, I know. I can't help being deeply introverted.

[Bella]

Do, Re, Me, Fa, So, La, Ti

[InaF3157]

Do, Re, Me, Fa, So, La, Ti

Doh!

You forgot that part. :D
Ah, choir days
. . . and . . .
Doh-Ti-La-So-Fa-Me-Re-Doh.

[Xander]

After discussing and arguing the precise function order with Wildcat for about 3 months solid came to a conclusion. The four functions stated are stated because they are the most prominent in that type. I think that the other four functions aren't commonly in the same order of preference and so are left out for clarity.

[Bella]

Doh!

You forgot that part. :D
Ah, choir days

Doh-Ti-La-So-Fa-Me-Re-Doh.


Ah, I sang in the choir too...I nearly forgot about that. I used to get so lost in my mind and thoughts while singing.

[InaF3157]

Ah, I sang in the choir too...I nearly forgot about that. I used to get so lost in my mind and thoughts while singing.
That's one of the best parts.
Alto, soprano?

[Bella]

That's one of the best parts.
Alto, soprano?

Oh goodness, can I remember....I wasn't in the middle of the choir, closer to the side....uhm, I think it was alto, but not the very deep alto.

[edcoaching]

After discussing and arguing the precise function order with Wildcat for about 3 months solid came to a conclusion. The four functions stated are stated because they are the most prominent in that type. I think that the other four functions aren't commonly in the same order of preference and so are left out for clarity.

Back to the real question in this thread...:hi:

There are experts out there who propose a single order of preference development, especially those who only work with the 8-function model. Beebe for example ties each function to an archetype to indicate how it helps and hinders us.

But I'm with Xander. The first two are, by virtue of how the type codes are defined, your first two functions. Then it can vary by individual.

[Sytpg]

Back to the real question in this thread...:hi:

There are experts out there who propose a single order of preference development, especially those who only work with the 8-function model. Beebe for example ties each function to an archetype to indicate how it helps and hinders us.

But I'm with Xander. The first two are, by virtue of how the type codes are defined, your first two functions. Then it can vary by individual.

And yet my Fi is greater than my Ne (and I'm an ENFP) :

Fi, Ne, Ti, Se, Fe, Te, Ni, Si

46, 43.2, 39.8, 33.6, 28.3, 19, 16.1, 14.2 respectively.

[Jack Flak]

"Ti," "Ne," all else.

[mlittrell]

And yet my Fi is greater than my Ne (and I'm an ENFP) :

Fi, Ne, Ti, Se, Fe, Te, Ni, Si

46, 43.2, 39.8, 33.6, 28.3, 19, 16.1, 14.2 respectively.

then your an INFP lol

and in that case your functions would be Fi, Ne, Si, Te, Fe, Ni, Se, Ti

not too sure about the last four actually, i tend to not care bout those

[Lateralus]

Te Fi N. I don't use other functions! (insert 'serious' emoticon here)


I'm not sure if I use Ni or Ne, but the fact that I'm a bit crazy might mean that I'm Ni dominant.

[phoenix13]

And yet my Fi is greater than my Ne (and I'm an ENFP) :

Fi, Ne, Ti, Se, Fe, Te, Ni, Si

46, 43.2, 39.8, 33.6, 28.3, 19, 16.1, 14.2 respectively.

How can this be? I thought the 4-letter code was a short-hand for your top four functions, not a personality in itself apart from that. The E means that your dominant function is extroverted, and the P means your extroverted function is a perception function, which is N. Thus, your dominant function has to be Ne, or else you're INFP, which still doesn't work with the functions you have listed.

Perhaps I don't understand the question. Is the OP in fact asking where these orders came from in the first place, or perhaps why it is they tend to develop that way? I've been thinking about that lately...

[Nocapszy]

Ne > Ti > Ni > Se > Te > Fi > Fe > Si assuming I figured correctly.


Now it all makes sense!

[Nocapszy]

Te Fi N. I don't use other functions! (insert 'serious' emoticon here)


I'm not sure if I use Ni or Ne, but the fact that I'm a bit crazy might mean that I'm Ni dominant.

Your real function use:

Ne > Fi > Te > .... I'll let you sit on the delusion that you don't sense.


You're not a T.
Seriously.

[phoenix13]

Ne > Ti > Ni > Se > Te > Fi > Fe > Si assuming I figured correctly.

Nope, you're a confused lad.

Ne > Ti > Fe > Si

[Sytpg]

then your an INFP lol

and in that case your functions would be Fi, Ne, Si, Te, Fe, Ni, Se, Ti

not too sure about the last four actually, i tend to not care bout those


How can this be? I thought the 4-letter code was a short-hand for your top four functions, not a personality in itself apart from that. The E means that your dominant function is extroverted, and the P means your extroverted function is a perception function, which is N. Thus, your dominant function has to be Ne, or else you're INFP, which still doesn't work with the functions you have listed.

Perhaps I don't understand the question. Is the OP in fact asking where these orders came from in the first place, or perhaps why it is they tend to develop that way? I've been thinking about that lately...


Well I mentioned this in the "Cognitive Processes" topic where we took the "functions" test and the test rated me like that. BUT, it also said :

Summary Analysis of Profile
By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this
type: ENFP

Lead (Dominant) Process
Extraverted Intuiting (Ne): Exploring the emerging patterns. Wondering about patterns of interaction across various
situations. Checking what hypotheses and meanings fit best. Trusting what emerges as you shift a situation’s dynamics.

Support (Auxilliary) Process
Introverted Feeling (Fi): Staying true to who you really are. Paying close attention to your personal identity, values and
beliefs. Checking with your conscience. Choosing behavior congruent with what is important to you.

As you can see it lists Ne as my dominant function.


Eric B said :

But it is decided by the relative strengths of the other functions as well. For instance, Te is above Si and Ti is over Se. Everything else is out of place, but that is probably how that is determined. For me, Ne was above Ti, yet I still came out INTP, because the other functions were in more in an introverted order. And that's very accurate, because Ne does seem the strongest, though the role is still supporting.

Since the test did type me as an ENFP, despite Fi>Ne, it seems how the functions relate to each other also matters.

[Negative_]

How can this be? I thought the 4-letter code was a short-hand for your top four functions, not a personality in itself apart from that. The E means that your dominant function is extroverted, and the P means your extroverted function is a perception function, which is N. Thus, your dominant function has to be Ne, or else you're INFP, which still doesn't work with the functions you have listed.

Perhaps I don't understand the question. Is the OP in fact asking where these orders came from in the first place, or perhaps why it is they tend to develop that way? I've been thinking about that lately...

he's just asking people to rank their 8 functions in order of strongest to weakest.

also, a fi > ne > te > si could still mean enfp, as the last is Si - not Te, which is an INFPs inferior. there's a lot of ways to look at it. you could go by just the first two functions (or the first 2 and the inferior, in which case the inferior would decide which of the first 2 was dominant, changing the E/I), all 8, just 4 and one of each 'letter', all 4/8 compared against an archetypal/perfect example of a type, etc.....personally i can't decide between "how should i look at it?" and "look away, it's all bullshit" :D

anyway, using the 8 function test as a starter and critiquing what doesn't seem to fit with my limited understanding of both myself and the functions, i'd say mine are

ti > ne > se > ni > te > fi > si > fe

[ajblaise]

Ne, Ti, Si, Fe

[Kora]

Ne, Ti, Si, Te, Fi, Ni, Fe, Se.

[mlittrell]

christ, no one seems to understand functions even a little

EDIT:

ENFP -> Ne, Fi, Te, Si
INFP -> Fi, Ne, Si, Te
ENTP -> Ne, Ti, Fe, Si
INTP -> Ti, Ne, Si, Fe
ENFJ -> Fe, Ni, Se, Ti

and so on...

if you are an INFP, those are your functions and those are the order they are in.

In an ENFP the first function receives the information. The auxiliary function determines what to do with the information. The tertiary does two things: it allows the first two functions to communicate freely (this is true for any type) and in the ENFPs case it brings order to decision making. The shadow is just a backup to Te and is an un(sub)conscious process. thats functions in a nutshell...at least for an ENFP

EDIT 2:

Don't mean to sound so "brash".

[Jack Flak]

christ, no one seems to understand functions even a little
Brash. I certainly learned the rules before I started breaking them. ommv.

[Kora]

I'm free to decide in which order I'd rather use my functions, thanks. Being an INTP doesn't make me exactly like an INTP book description.

[mlittrell]

ok whatever floats your boat, just informing how the functions actually work

im not using the book description, in fact, i shun book descriptions

[Lateralus]

christ, no one seems to understand functions even a little
I find function order to be restrictive. To say that everyone fits into exactly 16 "well-defined" categories is pretty ambitious, especially for something so ambiguous.

[Kora]

ok whatever floats your boat, just informing how the functions actually work

im not using the book description, in fact, i shun book descriptions

I know, but I just don't think the way functions work doesn't actually work 100% with me.

[mlittrell]

it's not that they work anyway with anyone, once you treat functions as individual entities they lose their usefulness and thus are pretty pointless. an individual function is nothing, it doesn't tell you anything. if you can explain how your functions work together (like i did with ENFP) then go for it. you might know much more then I do because I can't figure out a way that it would be possible.

[Jeffster]

Boy, this topic sure does bring out the "I know you better than you know yourself" crowd, doesn't it? :rolli:

Anyway, according to that cognitive processes test thingy, mine go like this:

Fi-Se-Si-Fe-Ne-Te-Ni-Ti

Which, when I read the descriptions of what the functions mean/do pretty much makes sense in the way I approach stuff mentally.

[mlittrell]

Boy, this topic sure does bring out the "I know you better than you know yourself" crowd, doesn't it?

Ya it does :) Thank God I'm not part of that group.

[phoenix13]

Eric B said :



Since the test did type me as an ENFP, despite Fi>Ne, it seems how the functions relate to each other also matters.

The idea of type determined via. "relative" functions is intuitively satisfying. After looking into it, I just might buy it.

[Evan]

Ni, Ti, Fe, Se

The other four are basically rolled up into the first four. I don't think of it as 8 separate functions. I think of it as 4, and then spectrums of direction for each.

[mlittrell]

I think of it as 4, and then spectrums of direction for each.

Explain. I may have a similar approach. For example, in my list of fuctions (Ne, Fi, Te, Si) I do not have Fe. But of course I can create a "synthetic" version of Fe with Ne and Fi.

[Eric B]

christ, no one seems to understand functions even a little

EDIT:

ENFP -> Ne, Fi, Te, Si
INFP -> Fi, Ne, Si, Te
ENTP -> Ne, Ti, Fe, Si
INTP -> Ti, Ne, Si, Fe
ENFJ -> Fe, Ni, Se, Ti

and so on...

if you are an INFP, those are your functions and those are the order they are in.

In an ENFP the first function receives the information. The auxiliary function determines what to do with the information. The tertiary does two things: it allows the first two functions to communicate freely (this is true for any type) and in the ENFPs case it brings order to decision making. The shadow is just a backup to Te and is an un(sub)conscious process. thats functions in a nutshell...at least for an ENFP
What you're describing there are actually roles, not necessarily strengths. That's why people's CP results are coming out all out of order. So an ENFP can have his Fi measured as the strongest, and what that would suggest is that his decision making is stronger then his receiving of information. I guess he "does more with less". ;)

I find both my Ne-Ti-Si-Fi-Te-Fe-Se-Ni relative strengths, plus the Ti-Ne-Si-Fe-Te-Ni-Se-Fi roles to be very accurate.

[GZA]

Mine would be:

Fi
Ne
Si
Te and Ti are probably tied. Si is pretty close to being tied, too, actually.
Se
Fe
Ni

[Evan]

Explain. I may have a similar approach. For example, in my list of fuctions (Ne, Fi, Te, Si) I do not have Fe. But of course I can create a "synthetic" version of Fe with Ne and Fi.

Well it makes sense that when one perceiving or judging function goes in one direction, it should be used with the opposite one going the other direction (ie. Ti and Fe, Ni and Se).

Let's take ESFP as an example. I seriously doubt any of them gives equal attention to all sensory data in the environment. Even the most P people still filter data through their internal standard to some extent (they're more likely to pick up on sensory data that is more important to their current thought process and unconscious tendencies). So they are S dominant with extroversion being the preferred direction for sensing. Maybe call it 90% extroverted sensing. 100% extroversion in a function doesn't seem possible.

I don't think it makes sense to call Se and Si different functions since neither of them seem to be theoretically possible. I'd rather call it sensing and include a spectrum of introversion to extroversion.

I do think that generally people tend to be 90% or more on either side, just due to our tendency to specialize. I doubt anyone could maintain any sort of balance in the middle of a function. So it still makes sense to think of functions as having a direction. Just not entirely one direction.

This is actually another reason I feel comfortable listing my function order as Ni, Ti, Fe, Se. Not all of them are pointing in exactly one direction. There is a bit of extroversion in my first two functions, and there is a bit of introversion in my second two.

Another thing: the MBTI system is flawed. We think of people that use T more comfortably than F as Ts, but I'm not an INTJ. Either the code should include less common orders, or we should throw out the code altogether and just list functions. There are definitely rules that apply to order of functions, but I don't like the rule for the order of the middle two functions. I think that should be thrown out.

People are raised in all sorts of different ways. If someone is raised in an environment where their auxiliary is constantly negatively reinforced and their tertiary constantly positively enforced, they are definitely going to be more comfortable with their tertiary than their auxiliary.

So what does "order" really mean? Does it mean comfortability? Or does it just mean MBTI perscribed order... If it means comfortability, the rules are too strict. If its about functions pairing in some sort of specific way, I guess we can use the MBTI order, it just can't be applied that far.

[animenagai]

whoever keeps giving my threads 1 star, please go kill yourself.

okay back on topic, if you think your 4 functions are your top 4 functions i simply CANNOT agree, nor do i think the literature ever says this. you seriously telling me that for an ENFP your Te will be higher than your Fe? Te is my tertiary function isn't it? yet will power is especially bad with us ENFP's. furthermore, the 4th function that the standard literature gives often isn't called your 4th function at all but your WEAKEST function. for my money, that doesn't mean that it's my 4th function at all, but my 8th. unless we can somehow say that we only use 4 functions, i can't see how this makes sense. i think the 4 functions that they give us only indicate the order of those 4 functions itself (perhaps the top 2 and bottom 2), that's it. i WILL NOT accept that they are my top 4 functions because they are obviously not. Te and Si are strong suits of an ENFP? give me a break.

[Evan]

1)Thinking depends on Feeling in the following regard, when a Thinker comes across a piece of good reasoning, he experiences a positive sentiment with respect to the thought he just entertained. If this were not the case, and we had only Thinking operating and no Feeling, the Thinker would have no relationship to his thoughts. He simply would have no motivation to explore them.
2)Intuition depends on Sensation in the following regard, in order for you to imagine something, you need to have an observation imprinted in your mind of something that you have seen before. As otherwise your vision does not have a starting point.
3)Feeling depends on Thinking in the following regard, Thinking provides structure for the sentiments the feeler has experienced. A feeler is able to say that X is good or bad because Thinking has identified what X is and focused the sentiments onto X. Feeling without Thinking would simply be a conglomeration of passions.
4)Sensing depends on Intuition in the following regard, concrete sensations are only possible to be recalled if one has made a mental note of them, this requires intuition. Pure element of sensation goes only as far as the physical act of touching, or smelling an entity, yet when the mind quite inevitably makes a mental note of the entity interacted with, intuition comes into the act.

Re: above post: You must use all four functions all the time. Feeling depends on thinking. You certainly use Thinking more than you use both feeling functions, or else you've got some real bad problems.

There's a difference between amount of use and conscious awareness.

[dorareever]

According to the test thingy mine are Fi, Ne, Ni, Si, Ti, Se, Fe, Te it seems. Even thought Te should be way higher than it is in an INFP. I must be defective ;)

[Evan]

Don't take that test seriously. Learn the functions themselves.

[mlittrell]

whoever keeps giving my threads 1 star, please go kill yourself.

no thanks lol others can rate the thread according to how they view it and it may go up. considering it hasn't, i wouldn't complain about the one star, at least your getting input.

and dissonance you make some good points. I still believe that the order is predefined. like I said, individual functions are somewhat pointless, and I could come up with literally hundreds of logical but pointless systems that i could wallow (is that the right word?) in, in which case i would just ignore functions altogether if that were true. if someone can explain how the functions work together if it looks something like Ti, Ni, Se, Fe (idk? lol) i will gladly listen. if it cant be explained then im assuming everyone believes that functions are individual entities in which case there is no point debating the issue and I will leave and stop annoying all of you lol.

I don't think it makes sense to call Se and Si different functions since neither of them seem to be theoretically possible. I'd rather call it sensing and include a spectrum of introversion to extroversion.
im pretty sure Se means extroverted sensing and Si means introverted sensing. wouldn't that be sensing and including a spectrum?

if you think your 4 functions are your top 4 functions i simply CANNOT agree, nor do i think the literature ever says this. you seriously telling me that for an ENFP your Te will be higher than your Fe? Te is my tertiary function isn't it? yet will power is especially bad with us ENFP's.

your still looking at it like individual entities. Te will not manifest itself in an ENFP then say an ENTJ. Its more used to "translate" between Ne and Fi. Si would back it up in an off hand way. if your looking at functions as individual entities, an ENFP doesn't have Fe but Fi. If your looking at it as a team, an ENFP has every function but some are synthetically created by your first 4 main functions. to make Fe, it would be a mix of Ne and FI. etc.

EDIT:

Te isn't will power. and i dont think will power is bad with us ENFPs. just look at this debate.

i WILL NOT accept that they are my top 4 functions because they are obviously not. Te and Si are strong suits of an ENFP? give me a break.

thats why they call them "opinions" ... chill man. and they obviously are not for what reason?


Don't take that test seriously. Learn the functions themselves.

Thats what I like to hear

[animenagai]

mlittrell, i believe that it is a mistake to call the 'other' processes just a mix of your main ones. i'll take my Ti for example. ffor my type, according to your theory i would need to combine my Fi and Te to get my TI. however, my Te really isn't all that good but my Ti is. i don't really see how my crappy Te can create decent Ti when combined with a good Fi.

1. as i said, my Te is weak and hence i find it weird that it can be a good ingredient for good Ti.

2. F and T are opposite functions, therefore i find it odd that a good Fi can manifest itself smoothly into Ti.

about the Te function, it is will power of sorts. it's your 'get off your lazy ass' function and not simply thinking extrovertedly (saying all your thoughts) as one may assume. i've spoke to many ENFP's about this and pretty much all of them agree that they have trouble actually doing the stuff. why do you think we don't like finishing projects? why do we procrastinate as much as we do. Te is pretty much the J function. coincidentally, the types with Te as their primary or secondary function are all J's (ESTJ's and ENTJ's for primary, ISTJ's and INTJ's for secondary).

[Xander]

Star rating fixed..

Btw why would this function order be any different to the preference strengths that people display? Surely there is a correlation between which functions appear first and the observability of them. Ergo I may well use Fe quite a lot but if I hide it well then won't my function order according to those tests be wrong?

I agree with mlittrell that an individual function means little without context (I'd never really disagree with that approach) but I've seen too many people with too much variance in their results to believe that people can be accurately typed from the function order that the current slew of tests gives out.

[substitute]

Mine are all screwed up. I've got Te and Ti equal in second place after the mighty Ne, and Fi as my inferior rather than Si, and well, the rest is in my signature. I was described by the guy who assessed me as "an ENTP who can flip a switch and become an ENTJ in certain conditions" :huh:

[Evan]

I'm going to make a function definition thread. Jeez.

[Jack Flak]

I think I'll post some religious texts coz they're true and u must believe them.

[mlittrell]

mlittrell, i believe that it is a mistake to call the 'other' processes just a mix of your main ones. i'll take my Ti for example. ffor my type, according to your theory i would need to combine my Fi and Te to get my TI. however, my Te really isn't all that good but my Ti is. i don't really see how my crappy Te can create decent Ti when combined with a good Fi.

1. as i said, my Te is weak and hence i find it weird that it can be a good ingredient for good Ti.

2. F and T are opposite functions, therefore i find it odd that a good Fi can manifest itself smoothly into Ti.

about the Te function, it is will power of sorts. it's your 'get off your lazy ass' function and not simply thinking extrovertedly (saying all your thoughts) as one may assume. i've spoke to many ENFP's about this and pretty much all of them agree that they have trouble actually doing the stuff. why do you think we don't like finishing projects? why do we procrastinate as much as we do. Te is pretty much the J function. coincidentally, the types with Te as their primary or secondary function are all J's (ESTJ's and ENTJ's for primary, ISTJ's and INTJ's for secondary).

well i assume ur basing your functions off of a test. first off i cant debate the accuracy of tests. tests are flawed by ur environment and the nature of tests in general. once again Te is not will power. Fi and Ti are very different but they both work in the same way.

now lets assume u are correct and im just some bumbling fool. instead of trying to poke holes in what im saying and starting a big semantics debate, expain how ur functions all work together in a smooth and fluid way. if u do not believe that they work together and are different in function from type to type then just say so. i will shut up promptly after lol

also to get Ti u would mix Si and Te. also T and F arent functions. and Te is completely different in an ENFP then an ENTJ for example.

chill guys its just a debate. and a function definition sticky would be awsome...if well done

[FDG]

As far as cognitive processes go, I tend to score highest in Te and Se, then equally well in Ni and Ti, then I have all the others with Si as lowest.

[Mondo]

I took some time to really think about the strengths of my functions.
I think I'm an INFP based on this function order.

Ne/Fi/Ti/Ni/Se/Fe/Te/Si

Even though Ne is stronger than Fi, overall, I use a lot more introverted functions than extraverted ones and as a result- prefer Introversion over Extraversion. It is fairly obvious that I prefer Intuition over Sensing from this order. Thinking is just right behind Feeling but I think Fi>Ti and Fe>Te. However, Fi and Ti are the strongest of the four. Finally, three of my top eight are 'perceiver functions' with Se at #5.

Hence, INFP.

[Eric B]

These discussions have helped me be able to sort out how all eight roles actually play out in my own processes. I had been struggling with whether I preferred Ti or Fi (as suggested by some others, based largely on how "enthusiastic" I can be at times).
So the issue I have chosen to use to illustrate, is one that goes back to earliest childhood, and my dom. Si parents remember clearly, and had recently reminded me of, and when I began following the processes used, it fit as a perfect example.

"Girls First"

Rule is illogical; makes no sense according to internal standard (Ti)
Does not have to be done this way; why not boys first, then? (Ne)
From what I have learned about boys and girls, there is nothing in their essence that necessitates this rule (Si)
This is a form of discrimination. Nobody wants to be discriminated against (projecting with Fe)

Stubbornly oppose rule by arguing how things should be done differently. (Te)
Immobilize with thoughts of how in a disaster when this rule is followed; boys[or men, as on Titanic] will perish. The ramifications of this practice are that girls are more "worthy". (Ni)
Thus, deceived by the perceived reality of situation (Se)
Adds to self-destructive strong feelings of powerlessness (Fi)

I have had to weigh Ti vs Fi preference for so long for two primary reasons:

1 The strong "gut" feeling involved in "injustices" like this; "strength" of Fi mistaken as possible "preference"
2 Rules like this appear to be an "external standard" or "group value" (Fe) that I was critical of (as in the E-FP's "immobilizing" or I-FP's "opposing" role). However, "group" values can be very relative, and often contradictory (which is picked out by Ti!) Society on one hand speaks out against discrimination; such as the reverse case; men being favored over women: or also, race; both of which were in the final stages of being overturned (at least officially) during my ealy childhood.

So-called "chivalry", basically stemmed from the old concept of "woman as weaker vessel", which was also the basis of anti-female discrimination. So it was sort of a counter balance: Man is dominant, but in return, he must treat the woman with additional repect and deference. But even this was being challenged as "chauvinistic" by some feminists.
So the discarding of all forms of discrimination seemed to be driven by an external value standard based on universal logic, while the old tradition seemed to be driven by an external logic system (organizing people by gender) based on supposed universal values. "Universals" are associated with introverted processes. In any case, external values will naturally take a back seat to internal logic in a young INTP. They will be more associated with negative "shoulds".

Overall, the process growing up was always logic judgment first; value (how important, etc) later. The first thing I was always complaining of was things like this being illogical, and asking "why?" Then, when the STJ adults would get frustrated and counter back with their hallmark cliché "that's just the way it is!"; THEN the strong feelings of personal devaluation (powerlessness) would come. A hero or parent use of Fi would probably just evaluate the situation and determine that it's not really important; not anything to get annoyed about; nothing is really lost, and (as I knew deep down inside), if there was a disaster, they would not take the time to separate out the girls and abandon the boys, but try to get everyone out as fast as they could. This was the aspect of Fi that I realized I was not in touch with, and hence I turned from the NFP suggestion others had given, back to my initial choice of INTP a few months ago. Fi is only good like that when all else fails, and it then transforms the negative thought pattern with an evaluation of importance.

Clearly, my initial evaluations was based all on logic. And the logic was based on an internal standard, which was often criticized heavily in an environment that believed that logic must be based on external standards to have any credibility (and only self-worth, ethics, importance, etc. should be based on an internal standard). This would then also increase my Te use in defense.

This also seems to match the out of place strengths picked up by the CP test: Ne 47.2 Ti 44.3 Si 37.8 Fi 30.9 Te 27.7 Fe 21.7 Se 19 Ni 10.6

I scored highest on Ne because I had marked a few questions "exactly me"; where I did not on Ti. This is because I am more aware of Ne use; partly because it is both extraverted; and a perception function (which tend to be easier to detect than the true nature of the standards we judge by).
Also, because Ti is probably simply not as strong as it might be in others who do score with it as the strongest. But otherwise, the internal logic standard clearly comes first, and type is all about the "preference".
Si falls in place
Fi and Te above Fe: because Fe does not even develop fully until midlife; but again, circumstances necessitated internal value standards and external logic becoming stronger; mostly in a defensive stance. As we see here and especially on INTPc, most INTPs have both Fi and Te as stronger than Fe. Still, Fe is what is aspired to; while Te and Fi are more negative (yet at least one INTP over there is claiming his Fi is good, Fe is negative only).
Se over Ni; again; (a few Ni questions marked "not me"); because an extraverted function being more noticeable than an introverted one; plus Se (external concrete perception; here and now focused) being easier to comprehend than Ni (internal abstract perception; future focus) anyway.

[Colors]

Ti > Se > Fi/Ne > Te > Si/Ni > Fe

[mlittrell]

These discussions have helped me be able to sort out how all eight roles actually play out in my own processes. I had been struggling with whether I preferred Ti or Fi (as suggested by some others, based largely on how "enthusiastic" I can be at times).
So the issue I have chosen to use to illustrate, is one that goes back to earliest childhood, and my dom. Si parents remember clearly, and had recently reminded me of, and when I began following the processes used, it fit as a perfect example.

"Girls First"

Rule is illogical; makes no sense according to internal standard (Ti)
Does not have to be done this way; why not boys first, then? (Ne)
From what I have learned about boys and girls, there is nothing in their essence that necessitates this rule (Si)
This is a form of discrimination. Nobody wants to be discriminated against (projecting with Fe)

Stubbornly oppose rule by arguing how things should be done differently. (Te)
Immobilize with thoughts of how in a disaster when this rule is followed; boys[or men, as on Titanic] will perish. The ramifications of this practice are that girls are more "worthy". (Ni)
Thus, deceived by the perceived reality of situation (Se)
Adds to self-destructive strong feelings of powerlessness (Fi)

I have had to weigh Ti vs Fi preference for so long for two primary reasons:

1 The strong "gut" feeling involved in "injustices" like this; "strength" of Fi mistaken as possible "preference"
2 Rules like this appear to be an "external standard" or "group value" (Fe) that I was critical of (as in the E-FP's "immobilizing" or I-FP's "opposing" role). However, "group" values can be very relative, and often contradictory (which is picked out by Ti!) Society on one hand speaks out against discrimination; such as the reverse case; men being favored over women: or also, race; both of which were in the final stages of being overturned (at least officially) during my ealy childhood.

So-called "chivalry", basically stemmed from the old concept of "woman as weaker vessel", which was also the basis of anti-female discrimination. So it was sort of a counter balance: Man is dominant, but in return, he must treat the woman with additional repect and deference. But even this was being challenged as "chauvinistic" by some feminists.
So the discarding of all forms of discrimination seemed to be driven by an external value standard based on universal logic, while the old tradition seemed to be driven by an external logic system (organizing people by gender) based on supposed universal values. "Universals" are associated with introverted processes. In any case, external values will naturally take a back seat to internal logic in a young INTP. They will be more associated with negative "shoulds".

Overall, the process growing up was always logic judgment first; value (how important, etc) later. The first thing I was always complaining of was things like this being illogical, and asking "why?" Then, when the STJ adults would get frustrated and counter back with their hallmark cliché "that's just the way it is!"; THEN the strong feelings of personal devaluation (powerlessness) would come. A hero or parent use of Fi would probably just evaluate the situation and determine that it's not really important; not anything to get annoyed about; nothing is really lost, and (as I knew deep down inside), if there was a disaster, they would not take the time to separate out the girls and abandon the boys, but try to get everyone out as fast as they could. This was the aspect of Fi that I realized I was not in touch with, and hence I turned from the NFP suggestion others had given, back to my initial choice of INTP a few months ago. Fi is only good like that when all else fails, and it then transforms the negative thought pattern with an evaluation of importance.

Clearly, my initial evaluations was based all on logic. And the logic was based on an internal standard, which was often criticized heavily in an environment that believed that logic must be based on external standards to have any credibility (and only self-worth, ethics, importance, etc. should be based on an internal standard). This would then also increase my Te use in defense.

This also seems to match the out of place strengths picked up by the CP test: Ne 47.2 Ti 44.3 Si 37.8 Fi 30.9 Te 27.7 Fe 21.7 Se 19 Ni 10.6

I scored highest on Ne because I had marked a few questions "exactly me"; where I did not on Ti. This is because I am more aware of Ne use; partly because it is both extraverted; and a perception function (which tend to be easier to detect than the true nature of the standards we judge by).
Also, because Ti is probably simply not as strong as it might be in others who do score with it as the strongest. But otherwise, the internal logic standard clearly comes first, and type is all about the "preference".
Si falls in place
Fi and Te above Fe: because Fe does not even develop fully until midlife; but again, circumstances necessitated internal value standards and external logic becoming stronger; mostly in a defensive stance. As we see here and especially on INTPc, most INTPs have both Fi and Te as stronger than Fe. Still, Fe is what is aspired to; while Te and Fi are more negative (yet at least one INTP over there is claiming his Fi is good, Fe is negative only).
Se over Ni; again; (a few Ni questions marked "not me"); because an extraverted function being more noticeable than an introverted one; plus Se (external concrete perception; here and now focused) being easier to comprehend than Ni (internal abstract perception; future focus) anyway.

good view on the functions and how they work together.

[animenagai]

well i assume ur basing your functions off of a test. first off i cant debate the accuracy of tests. tests are flawed by ur environment and the nature of tests in general. once again Te is not will power. Fi and Ti are very different but they both work in the same way.

now lets assume u are correct and im just some bumbling fool. instead of trying to poke holes in what im saying and starting a big semantics debate, expain how ur functions all work together in a smooth and fluid way. if u do not believe that they work together and are different in function from type to type then just say so. i will shut up promptly after lol

also to get Ti u would mix Si and Te. also T and F arent functions. and Te is completely different in an ENFP then an ENTJ for example.

chill guys its just a debate. and a function definition sticky would be awsome...if well done

i'm not basing this off a test, i know the functions. i have a decent guess of where they lie. plus, most of the orders i talked about is in the literature.

i did not say you were a bumbling fool, i don't do ad homenim. i want to have a good view of how the functions work together, but that's exactly why i want to see all my functions and their respective strength. that's why i made the thread in the first place.

Te IS will power in a very logical, results based sense. there IS a sticky for all the functions, it's right here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/1966-mbti-tutorial.html. it even gives the description of Te, which i was pretty much quoting directly.

Ti = Si + Te also makes little sense in my case. my Ti really isn't that bad. Si and Te is both bad.

last but not least, i have a feeling that you think i'm destroying my keyboard in rage. i'm not. i'm just more dogmatic than the standard F.

[Mondo]

Scratch what I had before.
In my analysis, I realize a mistake I made in ordering the functions.
There really is no way of differentiating between an Introverted type and an Extraverted type that way. So I decided that Fi must be up in front.

Fi/Ne/Ti/Ni/Se/Fe/Si/Te

This is under the impression that my preference for iNtuition is strongest, followed by Perceiving, followed by Introversion, and then Feeling. As a result, my Fi, Ne, Ti, and Ni all are fairly strong- the question was figuring out who was in charge.

Here is what the 'opposite' INFP would like in terms of cognitive functions.
Fi/Ni/Ti/(Ne=Si)/Fe/Se/Te

The preference for Feeling would be so strong that Fi would be completely in charge. Te would hardly be used.
The difference here is that Fi is very strong and Te is very weak. The other six functions are used about equally (neither strongly nor weakly) while in my profile, there are four clear winners.

A strong preference for Introversion and a weak preference for Intuition and Perceiving for the 'opposite' INFP allow for Si and Ne to be equally strong- even though Ne is normally an Auxiliary function for the INFP. It is still the winner in terms of extraverted functions and thus INFP is still valid for this person.

[mlittrell]

i'm not basing this off a test, i know the functions. i have a decent guess of where they lie. plus, most of the orders i talked about is in the literature.

i did not say you were a bumbling fool, i don't do ad homenim. i want to have a good view of how the functions work together, but that's exactly why i want to see all my functions and their respective strength. that's why i made the thread in the first place.

Te IS will power in a very logical, results based sense. there IS a sticky for all the functions, it's right here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/1966-mbti-tutorial.html. it even gives the description of Te, which i was pretty much quoting directly.

Ti = Si + Te also makes little sense in my case. my Ti really isn't that bad. Si and Te is both bad.

last but not least, i have a feeling that you think i'm destroying my keyboard in rage. i'm not. i'm just more dogmatic than the standard F.

nahhh i dont think your destroying your keyboard in rage dude...its cool. and i called myself a bumbling fool, which many times, i often am. i will hold true to what i believe because (in the nicest way possible) I dont understand how functions could possibly NOT have an orientation, and think you are wrong. you might be right though, and thus, an explanation of how a) your functions work as only individual entities b) how your functions work as a team or c) (my belief) define the functions individually (which is pointless because we all already know what they are) and how they work together

the only reason i would like an explanations is because ive been on way to many threads where people make up little function theories that on paper look nice, but have no application to the real world, and generally lack a full explaination

if your side makes complete sense i will admit you are right, i have no problem with being wrong, it happens all to often, especially when i get a little over-zealous

PS- lets assume Te is what you say it is (and i suppose that it is true in an EXTREMELY summed up version), Te is still used very differently between ENFPs and ENTJs or ESFPs and ESTJs. This is why I think orientation of functions is so important. Lets say, according to your theory, that my (ENFP) functions are Te, xx, xx, xx and an ENTJs functions are as i defined them. would this mean that we both use Te in the same way. if so, what is differentiating me from being an ENTJ? true, i use Te, but i use it more to keep my other first two functions working together to get jobs accomplished. I believe that sure, functions are individual entities but on a team. they must work together and there is a hierarchy to how the team functions (kind of like captains and assistant captains etc...idk i dont play team sports lol).

[animenagai]

obviously functions do function together, ad different people will use them in different ways. however, i think it can be simplified. Ne is my dominant function, Fi is me secondary. therefore, i can analyze the strengths of my other functions in terms of it.

i have weak Si, Si is a function i don't really want to develop. why? because it is a polar opposite to Ne. i like being creative, i i like seeing possibilities. i don't want to see the world as a series of norms.

here's another example. i have weak Te because the actual doing of a project is not as fun as the planning. my Ne is focused on new and fresh ideas, not the product itself. my Fi tells me that i should stay true to this. so, my Te can be weak in terms of dominant functions. i can go on, but you get my drift.

[mlittrell]

ok thats fine (though i think the conditioning of your/our other functions is generally healthy, and (im going to get flack for this) lends to emotional development/intelligence (this might not be true, just a personal thing ive noticed)). now the way your explaining Si is in terms of an ISTJ or ISFJ where Si is their dominant function. like you (and i) stated above, the functions are used differently between each type. Si in an ENFP will have a completely different function then in an ISTJ and thus defining Si as defined in an ISTJ or ISFJ as a function of an ENFP is a little too general. it will have similar attributes of an ISXJ but it is still used very differently. all this to say it will not stunt your creativity, but will (with use of Te) give it grounding and foundation. having structure will let your ideas attach to something and thus thrive. allllllll of this to say Si is unconscious so its not like you have much of a choice if it develops or not lol (its not something you can control like Ne or Fi). functions will NEVER hurt you or stunt your creativity. Te will pull your ideas together and lend them some order. with all your ideas together you can then see how they all relate (Ne) and come up with other new ideas based on these ideas. you can continually add more ideas together and build on old ideas. Te is a very very very important function to an ENFP in terms of coming up with ideas (or anything really). you can come up with all the ideas in the world but if your ideas dont have grounding or application, then who gives, they are just ideas floating around doing nothing, but if you pull them together you may actually be able to make something.

[Eric B]

Yeah, The "preferred" (hero, parent) functions generally are more "serious" (especially something like Si or Te), while the next pair tend to be less serious. Like the tertiary being "relief". So my Si is even a step above an EN-P's, and it is still more associated with "distraction" from life than the way the SJ's use it. Their "rigid" use of it gets on my nerves as well. Likewise, Te in an E-FP is quite different than in a TJ. The types are in some respects diametrically opposite, with the TJ's generally the most serious, and the FP's, the least so.

So whenever your Si fully develops, it will be more like mine, where it is used for nostalgia and such, plus you'll get better at remembering details as well. (thus it will work well with your Te). Its use should be getting more positive, not more negative, because it is when younger that the aspirational function is more negative, projecting "shoulds", fears, etc. on others.

[mlittrell]

Yeah, The "preferred" (hero, parent) functions generally are more "serious" (especially something like Si or Te), while the next pair tend to be less serious. Like the tertiary being "relief". So my Si is even a step above an EN-P's, and it is still more associated with "distraction" from life than the way the SJ's use it. Their "rigid" use of it gets on my nerves as well. Likewise, Te in an E-FP is quite different than in a TJ. The types are in some respects diametrically opposite, with the TJ's generally the most serious, and the FP's, the least so.

So whenever your Si fully develops, it will be more like mine, where it is used for nostalgia and such, plus you'll get better at remembering details as well. (thus it will work well with your Te). Its use should be getting more positive, not more negative, because it is when younger that the aspirational function is more negative, projecting "shoulds", fears, etc. on others.

very true. developing the functions is never a bad thing. well said sir. this is what i mean by explaining each aspect of the functions. it is why function orientation is so important.

[Apollanaut]

Ni, Fe, Ti, Se, Ne, Fi, Te, Si

Just the same as the eight function model predicts. Si is DEFINITELY my weakest function. If dominant Si is good at remembering and recalling facts and information, then 8th position Si is good at the exact opposite: forgetting things! It is the source of my considerable absent-mindedness. I have been know to "forget" to do the most basic sensing-type functions:

Eating
Sleeping
Going home from work at a sensible time
Going to the toilet

and many others!