Bringing you out of your shell

[substitute]

Reading the Jack Flak vs Mighty Mouse thread in the Graveyard triggered some thoughts...

A few years ago, when I was just beginning to start a new life, from previously being very isolated and having next to no social experience, skills or confidence, I had an ENFP brother and an ESFP friend who took it on themselves to bring me out of my shell... and their methods ended up driving me totally crazy until I finally exploded and sorta had to fire them both from my life temporarily and closet myself away again for several months.

Then I emerged again, gradually, and did things my way... and within a year it started to become clear that I had all the time been an extravert, just a severely stunted one... and I made such huge progress that by the end of that year people were not believing me when I said I related to them if they told me they had social anxiety.

Hmm... I've no doubt that if I hadn't stood up to my self-appointed mentors and carried on doing things their way, then to this day I'd probably still be riddled with anxieties and complexes... in fact, one of the reasons why I hermit-ed myself for so long after my explosion was because I had so many NEW anxieties that had only been put in place BY the things they put me through.

I know they only meant well, but the effect of their good intentions was disastrous. The amazing thing is, they still to this day don't acknowledge any fault in this, and hold that their methods were 'fine', and the only problem was me. Despite the fact that, through different methods, I've become very much a social creature!

Does anyone else have experience of being forced out of their shell? Did it work for anyone? Anyone have experience of doing it for themselves?

[wildcat]

Reading the Jack Flak vs Mighty Mouse thread in the Graveyard triggered some thoughts...

A few years ago, when I was just beginning to start a new life, from previously being very isolated and having next to no social experience, skills or confidence, I had an ENFP brother and an ESFP friend who took it on themselves to bring me out of my shell... and their methods ended up driving me totally crazy until I finally exploded and sorta had to fire them both from my life temporarily and closet myself away again for several months.

Then I emerged again, gradually, and did things my way... and within a year it started to become clear that I had all the time been an extravert, just a severely stunted one... and I made such huge progress that by the end of that year people were not believing me when I said I related to them if they told me they had social anxiety.

Hmm... I've no doubt that if I hadn't stood up to my self-appointed mentors and carried on doing things their way, then to this day I'd probably still be riddled with anxieties and complexes... in fact, one of the reasons why I hermit-ed myself for so long after my explosion was because I had so many NEW anxieties that had only been put in place BY the things they put me through.

I know they only meant well, but the effect of their good intentions was disastrous. The amazing thing is, they still to this day don't acknowledge any fault in this, and hold that their methods were 'fine', and the only problem was me. Despite the fact that, through different methods, I've become very much a social creature!

Does anyone else have experience of being forced out of their shell? Did it work for anyone? Anyone have experience of doing it for themselves?
Reflections in a Golden Eye.

[substitute]

I'll take that as a yes.

[Jack Flak]

Consider my agreement noted. People of different psyches can have similar problems, but there is no single ideal solution for everyone.

[substitute]

Consider my agreement noted. People of different psyches can have similar problems, but there is no single ideal solution for everyone.

Care to elaborate somewhat? I mean like what methods have not worked for you and why, and have you tried anything that has worked/is working? Or any ideas about what might, for you? do you want me to fuck off and stop asking you personal questions? :cheese:

I don't really wanna go the whole "I advise this for you" type route, but just hoping if people share their own individual experiences of what has worked/would/might work for them, it might be good to turn up various different methods besides the "desensitization via bombardment" method that seemed to be what my ex-mentors were using for me!! :laugh:

[Jack Flak]

I don't really wanna go the whole "I advise this for you" type route, but just hoping if people share their own individual experiences of what has worked/would/might work for them, it might be good to turn up various different methods besides the "desensitization via bombardment" method that seemed to be what my ex-mentors were using for me!! :laugh:
For anyone like me (or you it seems), external pressure is useless, as is forcing oneself into forseeably fairly awkward situations. Both methods will increase frustration, and distrust of others, and therefore the reverse of the intended outcome is likely.

To socialize the anti-social is not light work. I advise using ones strengths, excelling in areas of expertise, in addition to comfortably improving oneself in areas of weakness--such as athletics, perhaps. When you do these things, in my experience, good friends have a way of finding you.

[Orangey]

For anyone like me (or you it seems), external pressure is useless, as is forcing oneself into forseeably fairly awkward situations. Both methods will increase frustration, and distrust of others, and therefore the reverse of the intended outcome is likely.

This is true for me at least. I once tried to train myself out of social anxiety (or introversion, or shyness, or whatever else you want to call it...I'm not entirely sure what the distinctions are) by forcing myself into more awkward social situations than I would have normally had part in, but it only served to increase my level of fear.

substitute:

I'm not sure I understand your post. You're saying that your friend's methods were in general bad (and I get the feeling that you wouldn't recommend them for others), but at the same time you're saying that they sort-of worked (albeit in an indirect way). So is the moral of your story that the bombardment method does work? Or that it doesn't usually, but that your particular circumstances were such that everything turned out favorably in the end?

[Jeffster]

I don't entirely understand either. The "shell" is what, staying home by yourself? Or not being open with people or talking, or what?

[dnivera]

Graduate school forced me to no longer be quiet in class. I just don't care about what people think of me anymore. I say what's on my mind, even if I think it's not a meaningful contribution, and sometimes people go, "that's a great idea."

[Haphazard]

Wouldn't having a filter between your brain and your mouth be a good thing, though?

[Jack Flak]

Wouldn't having a filter between your brain and your mouth be a good thing, though?
Yeah, a decent filter. I was very introverted, objective, abstract, and unknowledgeable of social norms as a kid. I kept what I should've said to myself, and said the things which could piss someone off proper, and did. Which is part of the reason that for some, I don't recommend "just getting out there and meeting people!" I learned mostly through observation how to "behave," but I still have nowhere near the skill of the typical ESFP, say, of the same age. (ESFPs generally know what to say to be polite, though they may choose not to.)

[prplchknz]

I'm beginning to come out of my shell, I don't know what changed. But I think being forced to take care of issues by calling helped alot. Though I will still say I'm an introvert because though I often feel fine now around large groups of people I find my self yawning about an hour or two in and just needing to find a quiet spot. It doesn't matter how exciting what is going on I eventually need to just find some quiet place for 5 minutes just to absorb everything. the 5 minutes is minimal just so I don't become cranky and end up hurting a bunch of people. I also found having a book for those 5 minutes help.

[entropie]

I was never into myself much or how I relate to other people. I was until the late age of 20 living in my own conceptual world that was in many ways not related to anything from the real world.

People tend to like me, I have never had any problems with anyone and I today mainly can say that this was partly because I just did not care about anyone. I wa snot egoistic or something, I just did have no intrest in people's feelings, opinions, how they tick or whatsoever. The same was with myself, I had no intrest. (But issues !)

In the age of 21 I started to smoke some pot for like one year and combined with my small grasp on reality, I lost it completly. By this time people were starting to think of me being strange and I got more and more involved into finding out, who I am and what I am doing wrong.

It took me a long way until today to reach a new form of stability again. I have destroyed in the process of becoming an adult, the way I tend to see the world. I even cant remember what it was like when I was a kid.

Today I have a new and good form of stability. I understand more of myself and other people and this gives me a good base to operate from in society. Maybe in MBTI means the whole thing can be understood as a development of the Ti function.

When I was a kid, besides the lack of intrest, a very great lack of intrest in reality at all, there was. I am just glad I was cared good for and left alone by people, otherwise my way would have been different.

[substitute]

I'm not sure I understand your post. You're saying that your friend's methods were in general bad (and I get the feeling that you wouldn't recommend them for others), but at the same time you're saying that they sort-of worked (albeit in an indirect way). So is the moral of your story that the bombardment method does work? Or that it doesn't usually, but that your particular circumstances were such that everything turned out favorably in the end?

No, their methods didn't work in any way at all, I thought I made that quite clear - their methods caused me to almost have a total breakdown and isolate myself more than ever before, for a long time. I can't think how that could be construed as me saying they were in any way, directly or indirectly, successful!!

There isn't a moral of my story lol I'm not trying to say what always does or doesn't work. Unless the moral is that whilst some things work for some people, those same things can be disastrous when applied to people for whom they're not suited. But I wasn't really trying to impress a moral so much as asking for other people's experiences.

I don't entirely understand either. The "shell" is what, staying home by yourself? Or not being open with people or talking, or what?

At the time "the shell" was quite simply that I a) avoided contact with other people wherever possible and b) if unavoidable, I never spoke, rebutted any approaches or friendly overtures, and just felt incredibly anxious and panicky any time anyone spoke to me. Even immediate family.

But I'm not here just to talk about my experience. I'm sure that many other people have been told they need to "come out of their shell", and I'm just interested in the various methods others might've used to achieve this in someone, or that they've used to achieve it in themselves, and their responses, etc... IOW I'm just exploring the subject generally, and my story was just by way of 'sharing first'.

Wouldn't having a filter between your brain and your mouth be a good thing, though?

Not always. My problem used to be that I had a filter that was all too stringent. IOW I just never said any damn thing. I had to learn to actually take that filter off and be able to RISK sounding stupid, or whatever it was i feared might happen if I spoke in any given situation, in order to actually have any relationship with human beings at all besides a mobile piece of furniture! :laugh:

[Haphazard]

Oh.

I guess I don't have this sort of shell, then.

[substitute]

Oh.

I guess I don't have this sort of shell, then.

so what sort do you have then, if any?

[substitute]

I really don't want people using my personal experience as a model for "the sort of thing I'm looking for", firstly because the reason for my anxiety was unique-ish, and therefore not applicable in most cases (gender identity crisis?), and secondly, because all I'm looking for is for people to share their own experiences in the arena of a) being told you're in a shell and b) coming out of it, successfully or unsuccessfully, and c) the various methods used to achieve this.

if it's a thought you have, triggered by these phrases, then it's relevant and what I'm looking for. :)

[Haphazard]

so what sort do you have then, if any?

It's very difficult to convince me to get out because I'm usually convinced that I don't have time (even though I usually do). Also there's that whole matter of if I have to get something done in a group I tend to take over and people... don't like it. At all. By the time the group gets to over five people in size I generally stay in the background and work quietly, figuring that I can't say anything that won't automatically be shot down by people who really honestly don't care for anything I say just because of the way I say it.

I guess I generally don't talk much unless somebody talks to me first, but... that definitely doesn't sound like what you're talking about.

[FDG]

I don't think that anybody can be brought out of his/her shell without his/her willingness to do so, and ability. So, basically, to give an example: if I am a good dancer, and socially unhinibited, but a bit shy to approach a girl, then if I'm pushed to dance with the girl everything will end up well, because it's only a small step required.
If I'm a shitty dancer, socially anxious, and shy to approach a girl, then if I'm pushed to dance with the girls I will just look stupid and reinforce the positive feedback mechanism that ends in social isolation.

As far as myself goes, I think that I have gotten a lot better at getting along with people as I became older. I've always been very extraverted, a bit to the point of annoyance sometimes, but I could easily piss people off in an unitended way. Nowadays I still piss people off, but purposefully :D

[substitute]

if I am a good dancer, and socially unhinibited, but a bit shy to approach a girl, then if I'm pushed to dance with the girl everything will end up well, because it's only a small step required.
If I'm a shitty dancer, socially anxious, and shy to approach a girl, then if I'm pushed to dance with the girls I will just look stupid and reinforce the positive feedback mechanism that ends in social isolation.


EXACTLY!!!

[substitute]

I'm beginning to come out of my shell, I don't know what changed. But I think being forced to take care of issues by calling helped alot.

Yeah that was a big hurdle for me too, years ago, when I left home I had to confront the whole 'using the telephone' thing to get my shit together. I still really hate calling to sort bills and stuff but it's for a different reason now, I'm not shy any more it's just that the companies are incompetent and the call centre people are usually badly trained and it's just frustrating dealing with them lol

Though I will still say I'm an introvert because though I often feel fine now around large groups of people I find my self yawning about an hour or two in and just needing to find a quiet spot.

Yeah I don't mean to seem like I'm saying people can be turned into extraverts, I wasn't turned into one, I was one all the time, I wasn't avoiding people because of needing time alone to recharge my batteries and stuff, the time I spent alone didn't make me feel good at all and I was depressed all the time. I was only avoiding people because of social anxiety and now that anxiety is largely 'cured', socializing energizes me totally as it would've done before if not for the issues I had.

But even introverts need friends and people to relate to, in smaller numbers and shorter periods than extraverts, granted, but all the same, the principle of needing to overcome anxiety applies... if anything my story just goes to show that extraverts can be just as much victims of social anxiety and often have to go through similarly painful processes in order to be 'trained' :)

entropie - your story echoes my own in that it took a total breakdown and then the drive to 'come back' stronger, to give you the will and whatever, to push yourself 'out there'.

[Orangey]

No, their methods didn't work in any way at all, I thought I made that quite clear - their methods caused me to almost have a total breakdown and isolate myself more than ever before, for a long time. I can't think how that could be construed as me saying they were in any way, directly or indirectly, successful!!

There isn't a moral of my story lol I'm not trying to say what always does or doesn't work. Unless the moral is that whilst some things work for some people, those same things can be disastrous when applied to people for whom they're not suited. But I wasn't really trying to impress a moral so much as asking for other people's experiences.

Oh okay, I misunderstood your post then :). I read it as saying that while their methods were damaging in the short run, it prompted you to eventually make a change where you probably wouldn't have before (before the whole ordeal, that is). Sorry.

[substitute]

Oh okay, I misunderstood your post then :). I read it as saying that while their methods were damaging in the short run, it prompted you to eventually make a change where you probably wouldn't have before (before the whole ordeal, that is). Sorry.

Ah right. No, I did actually start making moves on my own before the 'ordeal' haha, but as soon as I hit an obstacle these guys decided it was time for me to receive some, ahem, expert guidance... it's not just that their methods of socializing didn't suit me, but the ends, not just the means, were something that were not suited to my character. They seemed to want me to reach a sort of Fi-underpinned relationship with the general public and individual people, that was their ideal, it was where they wanted me to be headed and it was for signs of this that they were looking in order to judge what level of success I had achieved.

I later took a more Ti/Fe approach... it wasn't Ne that was an issue for me because I didn't really have much trouble in perceiving what was going on, but it was my judging functions, knowing which ones to use and in what way, so to speak, that I needed to work on. Ti and Fe were more natural for me and in line with the sort of relationship that I wanted and was most capable of, with other people, as opposed to the Fi/Te one they were pushing me towards...

[Kyrielle]

Well, I've had people try to tell me what it was to be confident and relaxed and social, but the way they did it never worked. I had someone tell me I must always, always, always formally introduce myself, shake hands, ask how they are...all that. Which does not work for me and throws me off (I will: forget my own name, not ask their name, forget to shake their hand, not ask how they are in response to them asking me how I am...). I realise it's somewhat required in business relations, but, dammit, most social relations are not business, and trying to box them in as such just makes the situation unbearably awkward for me.

I had another person tell me to go join a club, which might have worked, except I was looking at interfacing with more than three people at a time (and when you've gotten to be quite shy, anything more than three people is very, very daunting...actually it still is sometimes). I would have been sensory overload the entire time and spent most of my time hiding in the back feeling miserable.

What ended up working was replicating in my head what it felt like to feel confident and relaxed and what it felt like to laugh and enjoy myself around one person. I found that if I made myself remember that feeling and then mentally apply it like an overlay to a situation involving multiple people, that it was indeed possible to feel completely at ease and able to be myself in all my imperfections. This revalation is very recent, though. I've put it through some practical testing, and it's worked so far. However, I think the idea comes apart at the seams with large groups of people. I suspect it always will, and that's okay. This also doesn't change that I can only take small bites of time with groups of people before I start getting tired (as is evidenced if I'm sitting on a couch...I gradually become more slouched and horizontal the more tired I am until I'm eventually almost sliding off onto the floor).

[LostInNerSpace]

Reading the Jack Flak vs Mighty Mouse thread in the Graveyard triggered some thoughts...

A few years ago, when I was just beginning to start a new life, from previously being very isolated and having next to no social experience, skills or confidence, I had an ENFP brother and an ESFP friend who took it on themselves to bring me out of my shell... and their methods ended up driving me totally crazy until I finally exploded and sorta had to fire them both from my life temporarily and closet myself away again for several months.

Then I emerged again, gradually, and did things my way... and within a year it started to become clear that I had all the time been an extravert, just a severely stunted one... and I made such huge progress that by the end of that year people were not believing me when I said I related to them if they told me they had social anxiety.

Hmm... I've no doubt that if I hadn't stood up to my self-appointed mentors and carried on doing things their way, then to this day I'd probably still be riddled with anxieties and complexes... in fact, one of the reasons why I hermit-ed myself for so long after my explosion was because I had so many NEW anxieties that had only been put in place BY the things they put me through.

I know they only meant well, but the effect of their good intentions was disastrous. The amazing thing is, they still to this day don't acknowledge any fault in this, and hold that their methods were 'fine', and the only problem was me. Despite the fact that, through different methods, I've become very much a social creature!

Does anyone else have experience of being forced out of their shell? Did it work for anyone? Anyone have experience of doing it for themselves?

With a little commentary your post could be used to answer this thread:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/other-psychology-topics/8640-what-about-hypnosis.html

[substitute]

Well, I've had people try to tell me what it was to be confident and relaxed and social, but the way they did it never worked. I had someone tell me I must always, always, always formally introduce myself, shake hands, ask how they are...all that. Which does not work for me and throws me off (I will: forget my own name, not ask their name, forget to shake their hand, not ask how they are in response to them asking me how I am...). I realise it's somewhat required in business relations, but, dammit, most social relations are not business, and trying to box them in as such just makes the situation unbearably awkward for me.

Right. And y'know, when I meet people who are like that, I tend to find them really kinda weird, their businesslike, super-polite approach sorta creeps me out a bit and I can't help questioning their sincerity... so it's not necessarily good advice either, even if you can follow it successfully...

What ended up working was replicating in my head what it felt like to feel confident and relaxed and what it felt like to laugh and enjoy myself around one person. I found that if I made myself remember that feeling and then mentally apply it like an overlay to a situation involving multiple people, that it was indeed possible to feel completely at ease and able to be myself in all my imperfections.

That's a superb idea!!

However, I think the idea comes apart at the seams with large groups of people. I suspect it always will, and that's okay.

yeah, I tend to be the other way round... my risk is that I end up talking too much and then worrying that I've accidentally dominated the conversation and people think I'm some sorta ego maniac or something... so big groups are more comfortable for me because it's more likely that there'll be enough other people who are willing to talk a lot and interrupt me and stuff, so I talk about the right amount. In smaller groups though, I can feel quite sorta awkward because I can find myself with nobody else there who's comfy with talking much or interrupting me or whatever, it's easier to end up talking too much and thinking :doh: afterwards... I dunno, somehow it often seems to me that people find it easier to rapid fire/throw things out in a big group where it's all sorta multi-energy kinda thing, a brainstorming vibe can occur more easily, whilst in smaller groups people revert back to politeness and not interrupting, and I can realize with horror all of a sudden that these guys have just sat and let me talk solidly for ages... lol

[Haphazard]

I can't speak in groups of more than three people.

My voice doesn't carry. I get trampled.

[Kyrielle]

yeah, I tend to be the other way round... my risk is that I end up talking too much and then worrying that I've accidentally dominated the conversation and people think I'm some sorta ego maniac or something... so big groups are more comfortable for me because it's more likely that there'll be enough other people who are willing to talk a lot and interrupt me and stuff, so I talk about the right amount. In smaller groups though, I can feel quite sorta awkward because I can find myself with nobody else there who's comfy with talking much or interrupting me or whatever, it's easier to end up talking too much and thinking :doh: afterwards... I dunno, somehow it often seems to me that people find it easier to rapid fire/throw things out in a big group where it's all sorta multi-energy kinda thing, a brainstorming vibe can occur more easily, whilst in smaller groups people revert back to politeness and not interrupting, and I can realize with horror all of a sudden that these guys have just sat and let me talk solidly for ages... lol

(Am experiencing a deja vu of having a deja vu of this conversation before. Mind bending...)

Anyway. I think in smaller groups there's sort of this expectation/natural inclination for a more turn-based kind of discussion. Since there are fewer people, there's more time and energy to the conversation. I think there might also be the "bursts of talking and then abrupt silence" thing going on with small groups. Where in the abrupt silence, everyone contemplates the next thing to say, and then another burst comes with another topic or a related topic then silence again. Sort of like ocean breakers.

Where with larger groups, there's a consistent stream of discussion because the moments of silence are not synchronised with the group as a whole. You may have three people talking excitedly, and then they go quiet but immediately two other people pick up the slack, then another group, then the first group again. Of course it's not nearly that organised, just there's less energy being put into the group by each person so the discussion is more dispersed and consistent.

I guess you could also relate it to mob mentality/hive-think. In that in a larger group, people are less likely to be polite and not interrupt because the responisibility for each person is dispersed throughout the group. Maybe in a larger group, the entirety of the group acts as a sort of external brain. Whereas in a smaller group you have each person's brain connecting to each others (and sometimes you have people who sort of pair off without consciously meaning to).


This could all be hogwash.

[substitute]

I dunno... I just find that for me, personally, it's sorta a load off my shoulders that, should I fail to realize that I've been talking too much or that I'm rambling, there's bound to be someone else present in such a large group who has the nerve to point it out lol

This ESFP guy used to keep inviting me out to places 'where people are', without really giving much thought as to what kinds of people they were, what kinds of events they were... the trouble with the things he dragged me to was that I ended up feeling not only socially inadequate but just generally inadequate as well, because his friends are largely high achievers, people of high social status and stuff, and of course it hardly did wonders for my confidence when the infamous "so what do you do?" question came and I had to say "nothing really, I don't work, I'm a single parent".

In my case I also had the issue that 90% of my past is off limits for polite conversation. A guy mentioning that he went to an all girls' school, or relating to the experience some woman is talking about regarding giving birth, or having been married to a man... and without even going into gender territory there's my criminal past... these things don't go down very well... this is still an issue for me and I guess it always will be. But as time's gone by since I began my new life and I've built up a body of experiences and interests to talk about, I can generally redirect things away from talking about my past. It's a pain to have to do that as I'd always rather be open about it. I generally am in fact, about my shady/criminal/homeless past, cos you can pull it off with a "but I've turned around now and am a model citizen" and people applaud you for that, generally. But the gender stuff will never be smalltalk material!!

This was just one of the things those guys just didn't take into account when pushing me out to socialize.

[runvardh]

I am currently doing what Jack Flack has listed as a good thing to try. Aikido is slowly helping me interact with other people and the more I go, the better I get to know them. Also I get to improve myself with the help of others and in the end I may get a friend or two out of it. I'm also starting to take continued education classes where I have a strength that just needs application to bloom. I can admit to a little desire to be looked at in awe at my skills.

Some of the social situations my roommate has tried to get me into has, on the other hand, failed as I really couldn't connect with a lot of those people. This resulted in a lot of people just looking at me weird and further defining me as an alien.

[sade]

I don't have the type of shell that was initially described, at least I no longer have it. My own shell is more of a privacy thing. You know : a line in my mind over what type of tones, words, emotions, issues, things I'm comfortable expressing with xxx in xxx situation. The usual, but I'll be using the first described one in the following:

I started initially coming out of my shell after joining a small theatre group around 12 y/o. I'd had some bullying & friend issues etc. before that which had made me withdraw into my shell some more. The theatre group was a warm and comfy setting in which I didn't feel pressured into anything (well except the occational group performances), so I started opening up slowly and engaging more. Chatting with people, expressing ideas. I managed to form friendships with three people from the group that have lasted about 8 years now. :D

The second thing that affected me was when I got a job from a supermarket cashier/clerk, part time for a 1½ and full time for a year. That was extremely taxing, no private space (except inside my head), new people all the time, blah. But I've noticed it's helped me in dealing with complete strangers and iniating, and also bossing people around.


The funny thing is, I have a cousin & her mother who are very extroverted and view introverson as a bad thing, still pressure me into more activity or whatever and giving advice on where I should go, what I should say, what I should say. Not helping. Idiots, good meaning idiots. After that I normally need a while to clear up my head out of all the stuff they've been feeding me, the standards etc. I normally go walking alone to the downtown, and start feeling better after that. Aka braking their advice right away.

[prplchknz]

why do I repeatly read the title of this thread as "Bringing you to your hell" is it my subconscious telling me to fully expose myself would be a mistake or that I feel that way unknowingly? that I'm not as out of my shell as I think?

[LostInNerSpace]

why do I repeatly read the title of this thread as "Bringing you to your hell" is it my subconscious telling me to fully expose myself would be a mistake or that I feel that way unknowingly? that I'm not as out of my shell as I think?

Just a wild guess might be that somehow mirror neurons in your Amyglada are wired up to anger somewhere in your sub/unconcious. Are you an angry person?

[prplchknz]

Just a wild guess might be that somehow mirror neurons in your Amyglada are wired up to anger somewhere in your sub/unconcious. Are you an angry person?

not really. unless I'm stuck with people for longer then planned. and that's more annoyance then actual anger.

[kelric]

Sometimes I think that my shell isn't strong enough to *force* me to break through or abandon it, yet too strong to really allow me any sense of comfort at all in interacting with people socially - particularly when it comes to meeting new people in social situations. It's not even so much that I put a lot of effort into avoiding social situations (although I will, sometimes) - it's that I'm so rarely in a position to even *have* to. On the rare occasions when it comes up, I'm very easily overwhelmed and find myself leaving the situation.

For oh, the last 15-20 years or so, the vast majority of my friendships have been the "one of a group" types of things - classmates in college and grad school, my volleyball team(s), etc. While they lasted, they were great - but people's lives have changed, and they've largely moved on. The friendships are still there, and they're still important, but instead of seeing them 2-3 times a week, I see them 2-3 times a year... at best. I was pretty happy socially being "one of the pack" - but now that the packs are gone I'm somewhat lost, and the "shell" has become more of an issue. I'm pretty much a hermit these days.

I don't have trouble at work, or in other situations where I'm involved in some sort of activity (I don't get nervous going grocery shopping in a crowd, etc.), but I'm all business - I do my thing, then I leave. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've never had anyone really tell me that I needed to "get out of my shell" - but social anxiety, a shell, whatever, I wish I had a better way of trying to get out from underneath it.

[colmena]

I think life's conventions are my shell. Everything everyone does and is supposed to do feel unnatural to me. It's cyclically suppressing.

Idealism is very claustrophobic when you don't have skills.

[substitute]

yeah it's pretty difficult for adults to make friends anyway at least in urban Britain. Most people have their family, their friends they've known since school/college and then people they work with. If you move to a new town where you've no family or other connections and then you either don't work or have a solitary job, the only other place I can think of to meet people is church, and only about 6% of people in the UK go to church anyway so there you're stuck with people several generations older than you and they're often very cliquish and closed off to outsiders.

The pub culture is also dying (round these parts anyway), and whereas people used to spend many an evening playing darts or taking part in a pub quiz and socializing, flexi-hours has pretty much put paid to that and even when they're not working they're too tired to go out and tend to slump in front of the TV. Neighbours don't talk to each other either.

So all the traditional avenues for coming out of one's shell seem to be eroding away and it takes a very extraverted, very determined and very confident person indeed to build a social life here from nothing, as a stranger in town.

Even not as a stranger, as kelric mentioned, your old friends from school and stuff tend to also move on and become absorbed in life pursuits and you see less and less of them.

It's a lonely old world, innit? :(

[colmena]

My vision of outside my shell has very little to do with social banter, intellectual discussion, or anything the similar.

I think it's a case of mismatched culture.

[prplchknz]

I've never gotten those people who can make friends with out trying. I'm like do you have some hypnotic power?

[InaF3157]

I think it's a case of mismatched culture.
:wtf: Should you be rollicking with the pygmies or something?

[substitute]

I've never gotten those people who can make friends with out trying. I'm like do you have some hypnotic power?

Like Fe people you mean? I figure it's because they actually really attach to people so easily/quickly, they actually really can care about someone and want to see them and miss them and stuff even if they've only known them like a month. Always seems odd to me when I get people like that attaching to me because I just find I'm at a loss as to explain how on earth or why on earth this person keeps asking my opinions on this or that or why they call me to go on a trip with them or something, rather than any of their many other friends that they've known for much longer. I also find it difficult to determine whether/when it's "my place" to start doing stuff like helping, offering help or initiating discussions about personal areas of their life, like at what point do I cease to be the noob in their life and become somebody who's officially a close enough friend to do these things without seeming to be acting out of place or coming on too strong?

I get people doing those things with me sometimes, WAY before I consider them even a friend, let alone a close one... in fact sometimes I barely consider them an acquaintance before they're calling me their best friend... very odd...
(then again I do have attachment issues, i even question sometimes whether I'm actually even attached to my own family :unsure:)

[colmena]

:wtf: Should you be rollicking with the pygmies or something?

Yes.

[InaF3157]

Cute. I just checked out some pygmy art, and I can see why :laugh:

http://www.whipper-snapper.com/pygmies/images/crane.jpg

[Jack Flak]

I can't even tell what's going on there, but I don't think it's my kind of scene.

[Victor]

I think life's conventions are my shell. Everything everyone does and is supposed to do feel unnatural to me. It's cyclically suppressing.

Idealism is very claustrophobic when you don't have skills.

This is an extraordinary position to be in.

Just to maintain yourself, just to keep your eyes open, requires an enormous inner strength.

And yet you see quite clearly - your vision is not clouded.

You rest, though, in a very old tradition. That is all around you but remains unseen.

And it is a tradition that welcomes you with delight. Because this tradition can breathe in you.

With every breath you take, you bring the tradition alive; yet you won't tickle it under the ears or take it for a walk. It must trail after you - unacknowledged - eyes downcast - hoping you will give a sign of recognition.

It is almost as though the whole world is holding its breath waiting for you to breathe.

While you, in your ineffable politeness, are waiting for the world to breathe first.

[Condor]

I've had people (when I was younger) take me to parties, reunions, etc. with the idea that "You'll have a good time". So much of what is perceived as "the social norm" of the masses is skewed through the eyes of a mass of individuals.

"I'll have a good time...? According to who???"

I often wonder about "social norms" and whether they were created by a bunch of people who were simply not happy with themselves unless they were propped up with compliments about how well they "fit in". The more people try to "bring someone out of their shell" (no matter what the shell is) the more those same people seem to need someone else who is just like them.

I think that if anyone asks me to "come out of my shell" again, I'll say yes, but only if they go inside of it themselves and stay there...

[ThatGirl]

can somebody help me come out of my shell?

[Jack Flak]

I think that if anyone asks me to "come out of my shell" again, I'll say yes, but only if they go inside of it themselves and stay there...
To be sigged.

[Kyrielle]

can somebody help me come out of my shell?

http://shop.legalseafoods.com/images/images/CrackerPick.jpg


Sure! Hold very still. :devil:

[Haphazard]

Is it considered being in a shell if one speaks, but nobody listens?

[substitute]

Is it considered being in a shell if one speaks, but nobody listens?

Uh no, not really... I think everyone gets that feeling cos I think people, generally, don't fucking listen no matter how outgoing you are lol

[Haphazard]

Uh no, not really... I think everyone gets that feeling cos I think people, generally, don't fucking listen no matter how outgoing you are lol

Then what's the POINT of getting out of a shell and saying what fucking needs to be said if it doesn't do a damn thing?!

[substitute]

The more people try to "bring someone out of their shell" (no matter what the shell is) the more those same people seem to need someone else who is just like them.


I concur with this. This is also my experience.
When I've had a friend whom I've noticed is quite shy, my first thought is to figure out whether he's happy that way, first off. Then, if it transpires that maybe he is a bit on the lonely side and would like to be a bit more confident socially, the LAST thing I do is say to him "you should come out of your shell" or "just get out there and MEET PEOPLE and it'll come naturally" and that sorta crap.
If someone lacks confidence it's often because they haven't had a big enough sample of people responding to them positively. Accepting them
So my thing that I do is I just accept them. I don't say "I'm accepting you as a PROJECT" but "I accept you as a human being, sane, reasonably intelligent and able to make your own decisions".
Often by simply just having someone around who accepts them for who they are, doesn't judge them, likes to hang out with them and doesn't try to change them, this can cause a person to change from the inside of their own accord, change in the sense of become more confident in themselves, and I've noticed most of the people I've known like this have gradually become more outgoing or at least less anxious.
And many of them have said to me subsequently that it was me simply accepting them as they were that gave them the vote of confidence in their worth as a person being something others could perceive or appreciate.

FFS, just let the guy hang out, let him do what he likes doing. Don't drag him out and try to convert him into a mini-you. If you're doing it for him, rather than for your own gratification, this should make all the difference.

[runvardh]

Yeah, I always try to gage how much people are actually listening to what I'm saying and shut off if the listening does not happen. Why waste breath on those who don't care...

[substitute]

yeah, and why drag someone out if they're not ready?
I reckon if someone lacks confidence in their own social judgement, telling them that you don't even trust their judgement of their own mental/emotional state of readiness to 'get out there', it only undermines their self-confidence even more... perhaps... lol
If you're gonna challenge someone's self-image you've got to do better than just saying "oh no I think everyone loves you, no don't put yourself down, you're a great person", that's just generic BS that nobody buys. You've got to give them some evidence and a vote of genuine confidence like "well, I thought you handled Bob pretty well earlier today" and give reasons or "Sue said to me she always likes it when you're around, she finds you relaxing because you're not as loudmouthed as me", but it's gotta be genuine, gotta be true.

[Haphazard]

yeah, and why drag someone out if they're not ready?
I reckon if someone lacks confidence in their own social judgement, telling them that you don't even trust their judgement of their own mental/emotional state of readiness to 'get out there', it only undermines their self-confidence even more... perhaps... lol
If you're gonna challenge someone's self-image you've got to do better than just saying "oh no I think everyone loves you, no don't put yourself down, you're a great person", that's just generic BS that nobody buys. You've got to give them some evidence and a vote of genuine confidence like "well, I thought you handled Bob pretty well earlier today" and give reasons or "Sue said to me she always likes it when you're around, she finds you relaxing because you're not as loudmouthed as me", but it's gotta be genuine, gotta be true.

...what? :huh:

[substitute]

...what? :huh:

LOL I'm talking about better ways to achieve the end result of someone coming out of their shell, or should I say, of helping them achieve it themselves than the "throw into deep water" techniques discussed earlier. And basically saying that peppering someone with generic buzzwords, empty compliments (i.e. things you have no proof for and are just saying to make them feel better) doesn't help boost people's confidence IME. But raising specific points of specific things they did that contradict their "I'm useless with people" self-image can help more...

[Haphazard]

LOL I'm talking about better ways to achieve the end result of someone coming out of their shell, or should I say, of helping them achieve it themselves than the "throw into deep water" techniques discussed earlier. And basically saying that peppering someone with generic buzzwords, empty compliments (i.e. things you have no proof for and are just saying to make them feel better) doesn't help boost people's confidence IME. But raising specific points of specific things they did that contradict their "I'm useless with people" self-image can help more...

Deep water does not work. In fact, with a lot of people, even shallow water does not work. Remember, people can drown in two inches of bathwater. I almost did, and now I'm too afraid to wash my face.

[substitute]

Deep water does not work. In fact, with a lot of people, even shallow water does not work. Remember, people can drown in two inches of bathwater. I almost did, and now I'm too afraid to wash my face.

Totally. That was... deep, maaaan.

That's what I mean about letting a person make their own decisions about when they're ready and not insulting their intelligence. They're just shy ffs, they're not retards, they're not fucking stupid. Don't talk to shy people like they're morons. Just cos I might not have the right experience to know certain social conventions doesn't mean you should talk to me like I'm ten years old and treat me like some mental patient who isn't fit to decide things for themselves.

[runvardh]

Deep water does not work. In fact, with a lot of people, even shallow water does not work. Remember, people can drown in two inches of bathwater. I almost did, and now I'm too afraid to wash my face.

Probably would help if you had access to better water; sewage is not fun swimming in.

[substitute]

Probably would help if you had access to better water; sewage is not fun swimming in.

That's deep too, but a tricky path to navigate if you go down it, without falling down the slippery slope of "it's not me, it's all these idiots around me, I just need to go to a new place, this place, that place and everything will be fine"... failing to realize people are people wherever you go and if you've trouble with people in one place you're likely to anywhere... number of times I had to run away and start over before I realized the problem was me and my fucking shell... :cry:

[runvardh]

I like being picky, I've managed good quality friends that way. Ones I actually desire to spend my limited energy on. And no, I have not required some E friend to introduce me ;)

[substitute]

haha cool! you know I absolutely HATE introducing people? It's like totally sticking my neck out for someone... dammit, I won't introduce anyone unless I figure it's likely to have any good come of it... I hate being remembered as the one who brought the social retard to the party that brought everyone down or the one people think twice about inviting "in case he brings that moron with him" hahaha... so there you go, if I introduce you to anyone it's genuine, cos I actually like you and want you to join us, not an act of pity lol

[Haphazard]

It's kind of funny because people have a tendency to gravitate towards me on their own.

And... well, that I wasn't even talking about being social.

[runvardh]

Never really looked at it as an act of pitty; I'm just able to sniff out what I like, what I don't like and approach the former on my own energy. It can be a bit judgemental and cruel if you actually look into my thought process, but I figure "that's life".

[runvardh]

It's kind of funny because people have a tendency to gravitate towards me on their own.

And... well, that I wasn't even talking about being social.

You must be an interesting person, or just freaky enough to warrent investigation. :D

[Haphazard]

You must be an interesting person, or just freaky enough to warrent investigation. :D

I get that all the time. ;)

[runvardh]

I get that all the time. ;)

Also, if I remember right, you're female which will also afford you some interest points no matter how much of a recluse you try to be. That is unless you pull some kind of psycho bitch act about once every few weeks to scare everyone. That would take quite a bit of energy, though, I'd think.

[colmena]

This is an extraordinary position to be in.

Just to maintain yourself, just to keep your eyes open, requires an enormous inner strength.

And yet you see quite clearly - your vision is not clouded.

You rest, though, in a very old tradition. That is all around you but remains unseen.

And it is a tradition that welcomes you with delight. Because this tradition can breathe in you.

With every breath you take, you bring the tradition alive; yet you won't tickle it under the ears or take it for a walk. It must trail after you - unacknowledged - eyes downcast - hoping you will give a sign of recognition.

It is almost as though the whole world is holding its breath waiting for you to breathe.

While you, in your ineffable politeness, are waiting for the world to breathe first.

I had to let this simmer for a while. You have a way of breaking me out of my escapism. I thought, and played, and watched Bruce Parry have ayahuasca induced spiritual visions, and also just stared into the eyes of your avatar for a while. And now I'm thinking, and noticing how the skin on my hand is made up of lots of triangles.

But I do have an arrogant sense of wisdom; that by my own logic, I shouldn't/cannot have. And doubt is crippling when you wish to share with the world.

Yet I am the hypocrite, as it is others' imposition and judgment that I fear the most. I need to be able to trust humanity before I can feel a sense of peace and freedom.

I can't help but outsource my shell. Perhaps my vision is not quite so clear.

[01011010]

I like being picky, I've managed good quality friends that way. Ones I actually desire to spend my limited energy on. And no, I have not required some E friend to introduce me ;)

Yes, indeed.

[prplchknz]

Like Fe people you mean? I figure it's because they actually really attach to people so easily/quickly, they actually really can care about someone and want to see them and miss them and stuff even if they've only known them like a month. Always seems odd to me when I get people like that attaching to me because I just find I'm at a loss as to explain how on earth or why on earth this person keeps asking my opinions on this or that or why they call me to go on a trip with them or something, rather than any of their many other friends that they've known for much longer. I also find it difficult to determine whether/when it's "my place" to start doing stuff like helping, offering help or initiating discussions about personal areas of their life, like at what point do I cease to be the noob in their life and become somebody who's officially a close enough friend to do these things without seeming to be acting out of place or coming on too strong?

I get people doing those things with me sometimes, WAY before I consider them even a friend, let alone a close one... in fact sometimes I barely consider them an acquaintance before they're calling me their best friend... very odd...
(then again I do have attachment issues, i even question sometimes whether I'm actually even attached to my own family :unsure:)
that answers a question what type my best friend is. she is defiently Fe dom.

[Jack Flak]

that answers a question what type my best friend is. she is defiently Fe dom.
If it happens all the time, possibly. Once every few years, could even be INTP.

[prplchknz]

If it happens all the time, possibly. Once every few years, could even be INTP.

nope all the time. plus she calls me weekly to make sure I'm still alive, and constantly tells me how much I mean to her, and can't wait til I come home again.personally I find it annoying. And I get accused of not telling her how I feel enough. But I show her, but she wants me to tell her.

[Jack Flak]

I meant to say does she act this way with more than one or two people? It seems that's probably what you're getting at, and if so: Hey, that's no INTP!

[Victor]

But I do have an arrogant sense of wisdom; that by my own logic, I shouldn't/cannot have.

Well, I am partisan. I take the side of your wisdom and execrate your logic.

Look how wrong your logic is - it says your wisdom is arrogant - this is merely an insult - it is not even dressed up as logic - your logic is a fraud.

Why take any notice of fraudulent logic?

No, rather trust your wisdom.

Your wisdom has flexibility and depth and sensitivity - you can trust it.

And it is also humourous as well - so you can trust it and enjoy it.

And as you share your wisdom with us, we will enjoy it as well.

I already enjoy it.

Victor.

[Condor]

To be sigged.

Wow - glad you liked it.

I concur with this. This is also my experience.
When I've had a friend whom I've noticed is quite shy, my first thought is to figure out whether he's happy that way, first off. Then, if it transpires that maybe he is a bit on the lonely side and would like to be a bit more confident socially, the LAST thing I do is say to him "you should come out of your shell" or "just get out there and MEET PEOPLE and it'll come naturally" and that sorta crap.
If someone lacks confidence it's often because they haven't had a big enough sample of people responding to them positively. Accepting them
So my thing that I do is I just accept them. I don't say "I'm accepting you as a PROJECT" but "I accept you as a human being, sane, reasonably intelligent and able to make your own decisions".
Often by simply just having someone around who accepts them for who they are, doesn't judge them, likes to hang out with them and doesn't try to change them, this can cause a person to change from the inside of their own accord, change in the sense of become more confident in themselves, and I've noticed most of the people I've known like this have gradually become more outgoing or at least less anxious.
And many of them have said to me subsequently that it was me simply accepting them as they were that gave them the vote of confidence in their worth as a person being something others could perceive or appreciate.

FFS, just let the guy hang out, let him do what he likes doing. Don't drag him out and try to convert him into a mini-you. If you're doing it for him, rather than for your own gratification, this should make all the difference.

After reading the posts, I had to re-read this one. If someone "accepts you for who you are" and that acceptance leads to them changing, how can you accept them for who they were versus who they have become?

I'm trying not to get too deep here (and am probably going to fail miserably) but does acceptance matter? Do (the majority of) people really live their lives with acceptance of others in mind? Am I really missing the boat that badly?

When someone asks me "what do you think?" my initial response is "what do you care?". I know the reaction that gets, but is my perception of others enough to have an effect on what they do? If so, are they being honest with themselves? Or are they acting on the perceptions of others?

It's difficult to put into words, but if people can't be counted on to act honestly, then why would anyone want to interact with them at all? Is the person who "came out of their shell" (willingly or otherwise) still the same person? If I know someone who acted one way and then changed, I have to believe either the "old" or "new" version of the person was/is disingenuous. I would find it extremely difficult to interact with that person.

[substitute]

After reading the posts, I had to re-read this one. If someone "accepts you for who you are" and that acceptance leads to them changing, how can you accept them for who they were versus who they have become?

Because who they become is a product of their own choices, and consistent with who they were. IOW they're the same person, just more able to be that person around others. They've simply learned a new skill. Plus, when I say I accept people, I mean I accept them ALL, WHOEVER they are, it's not conditional. Trust me, in prison chaplaincy this concept takes on whole new meanings!!

This is why I advocate letting people make their own decisions rather than forcing them, because if you force them, then the end result is not authentic and doesn't integrate properly within their true personality.

It's difficult to put into words, but if people can't be counted on to act honestly, then why would anyone want to interact with them at all? Is the person who "came out of their shell" (willingly or otherwise) still the same person? If I know someone who acted one way and then changed, I have to believe either the "old" or "new" version of the person was/is disingenuous. I would find it extremely difficult to interact with that person.

See, that's the kind of judgement that makes people nervous. The person isn't deliberately hiding their true nature in order to deceive you. But bad past experiences can leave scars on people so that certain situations trigger nervous emotional reactions and they find it difficult to trust YOU not to judge them or reject them if they let their true selves out.

Bully for you if the opinion of others is so unimportant to you, if you can maintain a high self opinion despite no (or contrary) feedback from the outside world as to the validity of this opinion. But for us mortals, we need a bit of reassurance now and then. Some people err on the side of arrogance in their self-image, whilst I feel most err on the side of excessive humility. Except maybe teenage boys... lol

There have been times in my life when my self-esteem has been so shot down by bullying and various failures, all that kept me from giving up on myself entirely was the knowledge that one or two really awesome people accepted me and kept believing in me, so I figured if they were willing to be my friends then I couldn't be all that bad.

People grow and learn with time as new knowledge and understanding comes to them through experience (or other means). This *is* a universal principle. People who can't handle the idea of other people changing and view it as some sort of dishonesty often contribute to the fear of negative reactions holding a lot of people back from improving their lives. With that attitude, you're basically forbidding a person from improving. Is that rational?

[Condor]

I understand that the "old" version and "new" version of a person are the same person, and that most could still accept the person in spite of the changes. If the fact that I don't need "reassurance" from others to be happy with myself sets me up as "immortal" in the eyes of others, fine. But is the reassurance of another human being really worth that much that a person would be afraid to let their "true selves" out for fear of being judged by someone else? That's what I can't understand. Why would anyone ascribe so much power to someone else?

Your right, forbidding someone from improving - or even changing - is irrational. But is it rational to not improve oneself because someone else might not like it? I don't think I'm forbidding anyone from doing anything. If someone is going to worry about how I feel if they change, and then don't because of their perceptions about my response (or judgment), is that something I can be responsible for? I am responsible for my own actions and judgements, but isn't everyone else then responsible for their own as well?

This is what I find disingenuous. When people behave differently to seek reassurance is that honest? To themselves? If people simply acted who they are without regard to "fitting in" or being accepted pr being judged, wouldn't the people who like them then like them for who they really are?

Isn't that the point?

[substitute]

Uh, yeah the point is that nobody's perfect...

And yes, this might come as news to you, but an awful lot of people really are in great need of reassurance... in fact, quite often the 'shell' or 'wall' that people surround themselves with comes from having been knocked back, criticized, misunderstood and judged so often that they just can't bear to lay themselves on the line to that stuff any more, so they remain cautious and overly reserved in the presence of others.

Also, a lot of the time people are quite confused and they're not sure whether what they want to do would BE an improvement. If they believe they're inadequate in some way and not worthy of other people's respect (due to bullying or other factors), they might not feel that it *is* an improvement to come out of their shell and be more outgoing, or to share their thoughts with others. In fact it's often largely due to this belief that they build the shell in the first place - in the belief that they're protecting a) themselves from more hurt and b) others from the burdens of having to put up with their awful personality (as they see it).

And just to complicate matters more, people are often also in denial of how much reassurance they actually need, or how much others' opinions even affect them. This is usually going on subconsciously, so the person isn't even aware of it in order to make conscious decisions about the rightness or wrongness, honesty or dishonesty of it or to stop it from happening. The self-doubt and low self-esteem is very often covered up and overcompensated for by displays of fake arrogance, aggression, disdain for humanity and "I don't care!" declarations...

It's right that you're responsible for your own actions and judgements, but then this also means that we're all also at least partially responsible for the effects our actions and judgements have on others... which is why I'd say it's important to ensure, before having a strong or negative visible reaction to somebody, that your judgement is indeed justified. Not being able really to ever be sure about that, IMO, since we can't read others' minds, I'd say it's more constructive to reserve judgement.

I guess I just favour compassion over judgement... but that's not just words or some written ideal to me, it's a method or approach that's proven itself over and over in my work as being highly effective at helping people over their social anxieties... the effects of which I've observed in contrast with 'hardline' methods, backed by the mentality you describe, taken by others in similar work, and the low success rates these people get...

[Lithium]

Uh, yeah the point is that nobody's perfect...

And yes, this might come as news to you, but an awful lot of people really are in great need of reassurance... in fact, quite often the 'shell' or 'wall' that people surround themselves with comes from having been knocked back, criticized, misunderstood and judged so often that they just can't bear to lay themselves on the line to that stuff any more, so they remain cautious and overly reserved in the presence of others.



Everybody goes through this ritual, being tested by others. People who develop a shell do so because they have not developed any other strategy for defending themselves.

[substitute]

Everybody goes through this ritual, being tested by others. People who develop a shell do so because they have not developed any other strategy for defending themselves.

Agreed. They need help with finding or developing another strategy, or even noticing they have this one and understanding why it's counterproductive and what can be done.

IOW there's a shitload of psychological stuff going on here that needs unravelling, preferably with the aid of counsellors but failing that, just getting time and space to do so with informal support can help. It's a long and painful process. Not something that can be simply skipped, and solved by being dragged along to a party and told to "just go up and talk to people".

[Lithium]

Agreed. They need help with finding or developing another strategy, or even noticing they have this one and understanding why it's counterproductive and what can be done.

IOW there's a shitload of psychological stuff going on here that needs unravelling, preferably with the aid of counsellors but failing that, just getting time and space to do so with informal support can help. It's a long and painful process. Not something that can be simply skipped, and solved by being dragged along to a party and told to "just go up and talk to people".

Yes, it could be potentially damaging. The person might retreat further in to themselves. It all depends how much of a wall they have built. If it isn't so much they might well realize that the room full of people is actually not that bad after all then it might temporary solve the problem. The problem will arise only when they are verbally attacked in someway or put in the spot light and they don't know how to respond, society might then reject them and then they retreat again.

But are you sure counseling is a progressive step? You can only learn to swim by being in the water.

[substitute]

But are you sure counseling is a progressive step? You can only learn to swim by being in the water.

Yeah, well a good counsellor would be there to help them motivate themselves to get into the water or to figure out and realize why they're afraid. It's a phobia, basically... the causes of the fear need to be addressed first, in many cases, IMO, before confronting the fear itself. I find that in most cases, having realized and analyzed the causes of the fear usually makes the fear go away anyway by itself... they're raring to get out and give it a go once they realize the fear was based on stuff other than any actual genuine evidence that everyone hates them or that they're worthless or whatever...

My experience is sorta varied, in one respect I've supported people informally as a friend, but on the other hand I've also taken counselling training and had quite a bit of experience with varied cases, some pretty acute and some less severe, through chaplaincy and community support/mentoring work. The lines are blurry because of course I can't help applying what I know from my training and work experience to my friendships... and vice versa... I'm a bit like people who see no distinction between sacred and secular... to me there's no distinction between work and leisure, since I don't get paid for my work anyway...

[Condor]

Agreed - nobody is perfect - but we unfortunately live in a society that preaches perfection. And the fact that people try to attain that perfection at the cost of their own selves is unfortunate.

Agreed - the wall or shell is put up when people get rejected or knocked back causes people to sometimes to not lay themselves on the line for fear of judgement, but if - as a society - we stop preaching the need to fit in and to celebrate the individual then what would need to be feared? Being different isn't a sin. It shouldn't be treated that way. Changing to simply fit in is not being true to yourself. That's all I'm trying to say. But the perception that everyone must dress a certain way, have a certain look, live their lives a certain way or else they will be rejected or knocked back is the problem - not the fact that one person or another may not like what someone does or becomes. If someone doesn't like what someone else does or becomes, it isn't the end of the world.

With regard to visible negative judgements, again - agreed. I guess not interracting with a person is a visible negative judgement.

Looking back, I count three times I've agreed. Perhaps it's not the fact that I find it extremely difficult to interract with people who change.

Perhaps it's more to the point that, given how much emphasis in the world is put on "reassurance" and I don't really care about that, I simply find it extremely difficult to interract with people.

[substitute]

I agree that society's unrealistic ideals is the problem but here here's where I'm jumping from Te to Fi in one fell swoop hehehe... society is made up of individuals, and it's the reactions and interactions that each individual has with other individuals that forms their perception both of society and of what society expects/requires of them.

So... by a few individuals proving to somebody that society isn't to be feared or resented so much, because there are people in it that are non-judgemental, accepting, reasonable, who are willing to befriend them and who enjoy their company and are interested in what they have to say, this can cause a person to interact more positively with society, which in turn gradually makes society a better place... :D


edit - oh, plus I'd also venture to theorize that the unrealistic ideals of society at large stem at least partially from a tendency of individuals to prefer to focus on and judge other's shortcomings and to use the observation of flaws in others to bolster themselves up ("I'm a valid person and you're not because you cheated on your lover and I didn't") than to admit to and fix their own... ("I'm a valid person because I'm a human being despite my flaws, which means I have to forgive your flaws as well if you're to see me as valid")...hence the dominance of schadenfreude in the majority of the public's interest in celebrities...

[Condor]

I agree that society's unrealistic ideals is the problem but here here's where I'm jumping from Te to Fi in one fell swoop hehehe... society is made up of individuals, and it's the reactions and interactions that each individual has with other individuals that forms their perception both of society and of what society expects/requires of them.

So... by a few individuals proving to somebody that society isn't to be feared or resented so much, because there are people in it that are non-judgemental, accepting, reasonable, who are willing to befriend them and who enjoy their company and are interested in what they have to say, this can cause a person to interact more positively with society, which in turn gradually makes society a better place... :D


edit - oh, plus I'd also venture to theorize that the unrealistic ideals of society at large stem at least partially from a tendency of individuals to prefer to focus on and judge other's shortcomings and to use the observation of flaws in others to bolster themselves up ("I'm a valid person and you're not because you cheated on your lover and I didn't") than to admit to and fix their own... ("I'm a valid person because I'm a human being despite my flaws, which means I have to forgive your flaws as well if you're to see me as valid")...

(Would it be wrong of me to agree yet again?) Agreed, but conditionally. If the individuals in the society worried less about whether someone is judgemental, or non-accepting or unreasonable and just live their lives, perhaps the same thing could be accomplished. And they would be able to attain that goal by themselves. Self-assurance versus reassurance. :)

[substitute]

OMG alert the press... an ENTP and an ISTJ have just agreed SEVERAL TIMES IN A ROW!!! :laugh:

edit - I still think it starts with reassurance though, which should begin in the home and family. If given a strong start here, IMO, you'll be on the way to self-assurance by your 20's. If you're screwed up before you even get your formative years done with, you're gonna need that reassurance from elsewhere before you can start self-assuring.

[ZiL]

I'm familiar with those "we need to get you out of your shell" conversations, as I was subject to them for years by my best friend and others who came within my orbit. And like you, I found that I was more successful in breaking my shell on my own than I was with the help of "mentors."

Most of it had to do with the types of people and situations my friends dragged me into - they weren't the types of people I'd hang out with on my own volition, and the places they brought me to weren't the places I'd go to on my own volition. I'd get brought to this or that party or this or that club, and I'd be told to be confident and just make conversation, but all it would ever be was mounds of small-talk and I didn't feel like I could relate to anyone. That just made me more stubborn about reaching out. It was a misguided experiment in the end, but for the longest time, I thought my mentors were right and that that was the way I would have to learn to be over time.

But then I went to college and got to be a free agent. And things improved. The increased population pool helps, but even better is just the wide variety of new people with whom I can make my own new first impression with, instead of having some high school stigma following me around. In fact, I hate running into people from high school at college, because I always feel that I'm two seconds away from slipping back into shyness and underconfidence.

[Bella]

I do no longer tolerate ANYBODY telling me how to be. I have indeed perfected the Look Of Death for those who try. (and kids)

[entropie]

I do no longer tolerate ANYBODY telling me how to be. I have indeed perfected the Look Of Death for those who try. (and kids)

you still like me ? :cry: :)

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/di3010/Gestiefelter_Kater_Shrek2-1413.jpg