Christian cult in Arkansas compound raided. Child porn and abuse investigated.

[ajblaise]

I have a feeling there are a lot more "compounds" like this around the US.

Arkansas compound raided in child porn case

By JON GAMBRELL, Associated Press Writer 44 minutes ago

FOUKE, Ark. - Federal authorities conducting a child-porn investigation raided the headquarters Saturday of a ministry run by a convicted tax evader once labeled by prosecutors as a polygamist who preys on girls and women.

Social workers interviewed children who live at the Tony Alamo Christian Ministries complex, which critics call a cult, to find out whether they were abused. The two-year investigation involves a law that prohibits the transportation of children across state lines for criminal activity, said Tom Browne, who runs the FBI office in Little Rock.

"Children living at the facility may have been sexually and physically abused," Browne said.

The raid, conducted by state and federal authorities, started an hour before sunset at the complex in tiny Fouke, in southwestern Arkansas. Armed guards regularly patrol the headquarters, but there was no resistance as agents moved in, state police said.

No one was arrested, but U.S. Attorney Bob Balfe said before the raid that he expected an arrest warrant for Alamo to be issued later. The federal investigation centered on the production of child pornography, while state police were looking into allegations of other child abuse, he said.

In a phone call to The Associated Press from a friend's house in the Los Angeles area, Tony Alamo — who was also once accused of child abuse — denied involvement in pornography.

"We don't go into pornography; nobody in the church is into that," said Alamo, 73. "Where do these allegations stem from? The anti-Christ government. The Catholics don't like me because I have cut their congregation in half. They hate true Christianity."

About 100 state and federal law officers raided the 15-acre compound housing the ministry, which the Southern Poverty Law Center describes as a cult that opposes homosexuality, Catholicism and the government. The law center monitors the activities of extremist groups in the U.S.

The ministry's Web site says it is "dedicated to spreading the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the winning of souls worldwide."

John Selig, head of the Arkansas Department of Human Services, said state workers were talking to children.

A passenger van with about 12 people inside left the compound heading for Texarkana with a police escort shortly after 8 p.m. It appeared some of those inside were children, but Selig said he didn't know whether any children would be taken into state custody.

Police said the Alamo church complex would be allowed to open for Sunday services, although officers did not indicate when the search would end.

Alamo's church is in a single-story building that used to be a convenience store. A white cross stands atop the structure, with a small steeple to the right side.

Alamo and his wife Susan were street preachers along Hollywood's Sunset Strip in 1966 before forming a commune near Saugus, Calif. Susan Alamo died of cancer in 1982 and Alamo claimed she would be resurrected and kept her body on display for six months while their followers prayed.

In 1988, following a raid near Santa Ana, Calif., three boys whose mothers were Alamo followers were placed in the custody of their fathers. Justin Miller, then 11, told police that Alamo directed four men to strike him 140 times with a wooden paddle as punishment for minor offenses. Alamo was later charged with child abuse but prosecutors dropped the charge, citing a lack of evidence.

Alamo was convicted of tax-related charges in 1994 after the IRS said he owed the government $7.9 million. He served four years in prison.

Prosecutors in the tax case argued prior to sentencing that Alamo was a flight risk and a polygamist who preyed on married women and girls in his congregation.

Alamo told the AP that he believed Saturday's raid was part of a push by the federal government to make same-sex marriage legal while outlawing polygamy.

Alamo said he thought polygamy was allowed in the Bible but said he did not practice it himself. He also said that "consent is puberty" when it comes to sex.

There had been complaints about the ministry since Alamo arrived in Fouke in the late 1990s, said Terry Purvis, mayor of the town of about 850 residents. He has gotten calls from former ministry members with allegations of child abuse, polygamy and underage marriage, he said.

Purvis said he turned over all the complaints to the FBI.

___

Associated Press writer Thomas Watkins in Los Angeles contributed to this report.

Arkansas compound raided in child porn case - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080921/ap_on_re_us/evangelist_child_porn)

[V Profane]

Hallelujah.

[phoenix13]

Oh god... shit like that makes me feel so fucking hopeless. So fucking hopeless and helpless... it pisses me off. People like that... fuck it. I hope the bastard gets a taste of his own medicine in prison.

[ajblaise]

I hope the bastard gets a taste of his own medicine in prison.

I think he might enjoy that though.

[V Profane]

I hope the bastard gets a taste of his own medicine in prison.

Indignant advocacy of prison rape is both morally bankrupt and trite.

[Bella]

It'll just be repeat of "Yearning for Zion". Kids go back and it's bussines as usual.

[ajblaise]

Indignant advocacy of prison rape is both morally bankrupt and trite.

I don't think the Eye For An Eye philosophy is morally wrong at all.

[phoenix13]

Indignant advocacy of prison rape is both morally bankrupt and trite.

He raped children... I don't feel like arguing about this.

[V Profane]

I don't think the Eye For An Eye philosophy is morally wrong at all.

The canned response to the 'eye for an eye' argument: 'everyone ends up blind', is unusually sensible. It's a reflexive visceral reaction to wish revenge on the perpetrators of such revolting crimes, but revenge is hollow and destructive.

He raped children... I don't feel like arguing about this.

After I read the story of Stephen Donaldson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donny_the_Punk) it became something I wouldn't wish on my proverbial worst enemy.

[ajblaise]

The canned response to the 'eye for an eye' argument: 'everyone ends up blind', is unusually sensible. It's a reflexive visceral reaction to wish revenge on the perpetrators of such revolting crimes, but revenge is hollow and destructive.

It also gives a reason for people not to perpetrate in the first place.

That's the whole point; make people face harsh consequences for harsh actions, and less people will commit the action.

[Lateralus]

Indignant advocacy of prison rape is both morally bankrupt and trite.
LOL

I don't support prison rape, but not for those reasons.

[pure_mercury]

At least they didn't kill them all in a government firebombing. That seems to be the protocol.

[booyalab]

The canned response to the 'eye for an eye' argument: 'everyone ends up blind', is unusually sensible.

Not exactly. Historically, it began as a relatively mild-mannered alternative to acts of reckless vengeance. The philosophy was borne out of the fact that the natural tendency of someone, when their loved one has been slaughtered, is to go kill the murderer's entire family and shit on all their graves. The death penalty is a compromise.

[Oso Mocoso]

That's the whole point; make people face harsh consequences for harsh actions, and less people will commit the action.

Actually, the evidence doesn't support this. It just makes people both sneakier, and less respectful of the state. If you have any doubt of this, look up America's flirtation with Prohibition and the War on Some Drugs. Neither of them were effective in the least. In particular, pay attention to the Rockefeller laws in NY. As the sentences got stupider and the state paid more to incarcerate people, more people kept smoking pot.

[ajblaise]

Actually, the evidence doesn't support this. It just makes people both sneakier, and less respectful of the state. If you have any doubt of this, look up America's flirtation with Prohibition and the War on Some Drugs. Neither of them were effective in the least. In particular, pay attention to the Rockefeller laws in NY. As the sentences got stupider and the state paid more to incarcerate people, more people kept smoking pot.

As far as usage goes, the chances of getting caught are so slim that it shouldn't make much difference. For most people the positives outweigh the chances of facing legal consequences. And for pot, all you get is a $100 ticket for having under 25 grams. And I think after the 80s, pot use went up everywhere didn't it?

But for things like white collar crime, violence, rape..etc..punishment obviously serves are a disincentive.

[Oberon]

Y'know, he's just accused, not convicted. Nobody's actually shown that the guy is guilty. I'm not condoning anything here, but I would propose that maybe we ougtta not rush to judgment.

Who knows... be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it might be YOU doing the perp-walk in an orange jumpsuit on national TV.

[ajblaise]

Normally I would agree. But it looks like the children themselves have been some of the ones making these allegations.

I'm about 85% sure of his guilt.

[Magic Poriferan]

It also gives a reason for people not to perpetrate in the first place.

That's the whole point; make people face harsh consequences for harsh actions, and less people will commit the action.

That's evolutionary psychology's theory behind the development of vengeance. People were trying to figure out why someone so personally unhelpful and pointless as revenge would exist, and the best anyone could figure out was that it's like a doomsday device. It serves no purpose once activated, it's only there to deter people from activating it.

These are more complicated times, though. It's an undeniable fact that many things which were useful for us in our primitive days have becomes the source misery for us today. Just look out how various confused brains responses make people hopeless herione addicts. In modern society, it seems that social interaction is so complex that it's watered down the value of revenge. There are so many options, every step of the way, that a person does not have to feel deterred by sought revenge. It's so easy to run, and hide, and change your mind these days.

[Ivy]

Normally I would agree. But it looks like the children themselves have been some of the ones making these allegations.

I'm about 85% sure of his guilt.

I think we're all glad to hear ajblaise is sure of his guilt. Still, maybe we should still have a trial, maybe, just a little one?

Have you ever heard of the Fells Acre case? Fells Acres Day Care Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fells_Acres_Day_Care_Center)

[ajblaise]

That's evolutionary psychology's theory behind the development of vengeance. People were trying to figure out why someone so personally unhelpful and pointless as revenge would exist, and the best anyone could figure out was that it's like a doomsday device. It serves no purpose once activated, it's only there to deter people from activating it.

These are more complicated times, though. It's an undeniable fact that many things which were useful for us in our primitive days have becomes the source misery for us today. Just look out how various confused brains responses make people hopeless herione addicts. In modern society, it seems that social interaction is so complex that it's watered down the value of revenge. There are so many options, every step of the way, that a person does not have to feel deterred by sought revenge. It's so easy to run, and hide, and change your mind these days.

I'm not sure why you say revenge is/was pointless and unhelpful. If someone doesn't stand up for themselves to someone who has harmed them or someone close to them, it could happen again, because the perpetrator faced no consequences. Granted, with today's legal system, revenge isn't as important.

And how would someone's confused brains responses make them hopeless heroin addicts?

I think we're all glad to hear ajblaise is sure of his guilt. Still, maybe we should still have a trial, maybe, just a little one?

Have you ever heard of the Fells Acre case? Fells Acres Day Care Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fells_Acres_Day_Care_Center)

85% sure, not 100%. And with that case you are referring to, no innocence was proven. It's not like the alleged victims took back what they said, they still assert it happened.

[Oberon]

85% sure, not 100%. And with that case you are referring to, no innocence was proven. It's not like the alleged victims took back what they said, they still assert it happened.

That's a pretty low bar for conviction. I'm glad it's not the standard.

[ajblaise]

That's a pretty low bar for conviction. I'm glad it's not the standard.

I'm not saying it should be.

[Lateralus]

Then what are you saying?

[ajblaise]

Then what are you saying?

I expected the case Ivy posted to be about a wrongful trial, were the alleged perpetrator turned out to be innocent. I was just pointing out that that case is still under controversy that's all.

[Ivy]

There's no way to prove innocence when the children were, in many cases, led to their allegations by heavy suggestion. One of the mothers kept after her son for five months until he said something happened to him. Today, investigators have ways to ask children about their experiences without leading them to certain conclusions, but there's no way of knowing if professional investigators are the first to question a child in a case like this.

[ajblaise]

There's no way to prove innocence when the children were, in many cases, led to their allegations by heavy suggestion. One of the mothers kept after her son for five months until he said something happened to him. Today, investigators have ways to ask children about their experiences without leading them to certain conclusions, but there's no way of knowing if professional investigators are the first to question a child in a case like this.

Hey that's true. But how many children made the accusation? The more children making allegations, the more damning.

[Oberon]

Hey that's true. But how many children made the accusation? The more children making allegations, the more damning.

Are you sure you're an INTP?

[Ivy]

THE "FELLS ACRE" RITUAL ABUSE CASE (http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_fells1.htm)

At least 40 children made allegations. Many after at first saying that they liked school and wanted to go back, which led investigators to conclude that they just weren't ready to disclose what had happened to them. After being questioned numerous times and asked "Did X happen to you?" they started to say "Oh yeah, and all this other stuff, too."

To put this into perspective, here's a list of what the children said happened to them:

* sodomized.
* forced to engage in fellatio.
* Attacked by a green, yellow and silver robot with flashing lights like R2D2 from "Star Wars" who would bite them on the arm if they didn't submit to sexual attacks.
* Molested by a clown who "threw fire around the room."
* Abused by lobsters.
* Tied to a tree naked and upside down in full sight of the teachers and other children while "Miss Cheryl" cut the leg off a squirrel
* Watched a baby murdered and a dog killed
* Forced to eat a dead frog
* Forced to lick ice cream off of the trunk of an elephant
* Chased around the school yard naked in the presence of others.

[pure_mercury]

Hey that's true. But how many children made the accusation? The more children making allegations, the more damning.

Really?

McMartin preschool trial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial)

[ajblaise]

THE "FELLS ACRE" RITUAL ABUSE CASE (http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_fells1.htm)

At least 40 children made allegations. Many after at first saying that they liked school and wanted to go back, which led investigators to conclude that they just weren't ready to disclose what had happened to them. After being questioned numerous times and asked "Did X happen to you?" they started to say "Oh yeah, and all this other stuff, too."

To put this into perspective, here's a list of what the children said happened to them:

* sodomized.
* forced to engage in fellatio.
* Attacked by a green, yellow and silver robot with flashing lights like R2D2 from "Star Wars" who would bite them on the arm if they didn't submit to sexual attacks.
* Molested by a clown who "threw fire around the room."
* Abused by lobsters.
* Tied to a tree naked and upside down in full sight of the teachers and other children while "Miss Cheryl" cut the leg off a squirrel
* Watched a baby murdered and a dog killed
* Forced to eat a dead frog
* Forced to lick ice cream off of the trunk of an elephant
* Chased around the school yard naked in the presence of others.

Wow that's so odd, I'd like to know how the conversations went when the children were being questioned. Was he feeding LSD to the kids or something?

[Jack Flak]

I don't know the specific case, but it's not exactly uncommon for psychologists (or others) to convince children something took place which did not in reality.

[Ivy]

Kids don't need LSD, they're just naturally imaginative. And when they are continually and directly questioned about whether something happened to them, they can actually truly remember what they're being questioned about, as well as a host of other stuff they come up with because they're in the fantasy frame of mind. It's really an awful thing that was done to these children--they honestly remember abuse that probably never happened, but they're still affected negatively by the memories.

[Ivy]

Just an aside, but I have a very real and very frightening memory of being in the toy section of K-mart as a child when the bay doors burst open and a mean-looking clown on roller skates flew out pushing a shopping cart, scaring the bejesus out of me. I know there's no way this really happened but the memory is as real as can be. And nobody even had to suggest that one to me.

[ajblaise]

Kids don't need LSD, they're just naturally imaginative. And when they are continually and directly questioned about whether something happened to them, they can actually truly remember what they're being questioned about, as well as a host of other stuff they come up with because they're in the fantasy frame of mind. It's really an awful thing that was done to these children--they honestly remember abuse that probably never happened, but they're still affected negatively by the memories.

Was it just continual direct questions about whether something happened that produced those answers? Or was it something more than that, like suggesting that something did in fact happen to them and pressuring them to make something up?

[Jack Flak]

Children have a tendency to tell people what they want to hear...Just imagine the situation. If the kid's not stupid, he/she shouldn't have much trouble figuring out what the police officer wants them to say. And the child can then become convinced it happened, because they are more trusting than adults (They have to be in order to learn).

[Ivy]

I think it was a combination of the two factors. Continual and direct questioning about specific things, coupled with a clear implication that the adults would be very pleased with the children if they had something to report. Kids will do a lot for approval.

[Ivy]

Moved some posts hereabouts (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/graveyard/8773-ivy-owes-jack-flak-coke.html).

Instead of getting mad at me for splitting the thread, you can just thank me for not moving the whole discussion of implanted memories. It's tangentially relevant!