Dementia and "Duty to Die"

[heart]

Old people with dementia have a duty to die and should be pushed towards death, says Baroness Warnock | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1058404/Old-people-dementia-duty-die-pushed-death-says-Baroness-Warnock.html)


Well, my father lived with dementia for nine years and he was still a human being. If people allow humanity to be degraded, then they can have no complaint when the eugenics people come to their door and say that they aren't in the latest round of IQ or physical health status.

Thoughts of others?

[ygolo]

That seems awfully cruel. I would not want my relatives to dies simply because they were a "burden."

[iwakar]

Old people with dementia have a duty to die and should be pushed towards death, says Baroness Warnock | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1058404/Old-people-dementia-duty-die-pushed-death-says-Baroness-Warnock.html)


Well, my father lived with dementia for nine years and he was still a human being. If people allow humanity to be degraded, then they can have no complaint when the eugenics people come to their door and say that they aren't in the latest round of IQ or physical health status.

Thoughts of others?

I'm supportive of a person's "right to die" not "duty to die." As with many things, a firm distinction should be made. I'd hate to see the latter eclipse the first. Think "Logan's Run (http://www.netflix.com/WiMovie/Logan_s_Run/709163?trkid=438403)" people...

*shudders*

[proteanmix]

Hmmm, interesting.

Aside from my gut reaction of NO! I think when Warnock says 'If you are demented, you are wasting people's lives, your family's lives, and you are wasting the resources of the National Health Service.' we should probably think about how this plays out. The way she says it is a harsh but it's kind of true.

Do you know how many elderly citizens spend the rest of their years wasting away in retirement homes because no one in their family wants/has time to care for them? What kind of life is that? Who takes care of them? Who will give up their life in order to care for the elderly person?

I've had two experiences recently that has made me think about this a little harder. I was talking to a young woman who basically is about to give up going to graduate school to take care of the grandmother who raised her. The grandmother isn't near death but she has a illness that requires nearly 24/7 monitoring and attention. Can't afford a home and the grandma has still got a decade of life. But this woman is the one most available to take care of her grandmother in this situation. What are they to do? Would anyone be willing to give up the time that it takes to achieve their life successes in order to care for an aging relative? It's not an easy decision to make, which may be what Warnock is getting at.

[Jennifer]

Hmmm, interesting. Aside from my gut reaction of NO! I think when Warnock says we should probably think about how this plays out. The way she says it is a harsh but it's kind of true.

I didn't read the article; but yes, I agree that creating a "duty to die" is a bit ridiculous and just a bad precedent, and yet PM's points here are very valid.

Do you know how many elderly citizens spend the rest of their years wasting away in retirement homes because no one in their family wants/has time to care for them? What kind of life is that? Who takes care of them? Who will give up their life in order to care for the elderly person?

That's the thing. Families don't live together more. And people are living far longer than they used to. Hence we get a lot of elderly people surviving ailments that would have killed them young, when they were still self-sufficient, and this places new burdens on the young and old alike.

MY grandparents hated being in a home, and my grandmother was mobile so she took care of my grandfather when the help at the facility was bad... but then she died and he had to struggle on two more years, unable to see, unable to walk on his own, dress himself, or even go the bathroom alone, doing nothing but listening to the radio all day long until his strong heart finally gave out. He was even a man of very strong conservative faith, but he was complaining all the time about why God was letting him live, he didn't see the point in it. Just very sad. :(

And yet with the geography the way it was, no one lived nearby and no one had the time to be there all the time -- my uncle was there during the week when he could, and my mom made the four-hour one-way trip every other weekend when she could get off work.

I've had two experiences recently that has made me think about this a little harder. I was talking to a young woman who basically is about to give up going to graduate school to take care of the grandmother who raised her. The grandmother isn't near death but she has a illness that requires nearly 24/7 monitoring and attention. Can't afford a home and the grandma has still got a decade of life. But this woman is the one most available to take care of her grandmother in this situation. What are they to do? Would anyone be willing to give up the time that it takes to achieve their life successes in order to care for an aging relative? It's not an easy decision to make, which may be what Warnock is getting at.

Exactly it. There is no easy answer to it.

[heart]

If we start viewing the elderly like the PM suggests, we'll lose our humanity. My father spent nine years of his life with mild dementia but he still knew joy, still had a heart, it was part of his life and the people around him.

[Anja]

Ack. We just can't apply our personal standards onto others' situations even though we see what seems right to us.

It's unfortunate to watch some of the elderly who have lost their sense of purpose and wish to make an exit. I sometimes think there are ways, with a little effort from others in their live,s that they could regain some zest for life.

I'm veering some from the OP to say that modern medicine has proven to be a mixed blessing.

[heart]

Anyone who has had close experience with people with even mild dementia know how indecisive, confused and depressed they can get.

How anyone could believe that a person in that position could come to a decision to be put down like a unwanted dog in any reliable fashion that they weren't making a guilt based decision or being initmidated into it I just do not understand.

Healthcare POA already allow a family member to make judicious decisions about which heroic lifesaving measures are valid based on medical advice. This seems enough to me.

[Hmm]

I didn't read the article but I remember discussing this with a friend once and the conversation went something like this.... Remove your emotions for a minute and imagine that there is a group of 10 people made up of 5 males and 5 females ranging in ages from birth to age 75. And the particular circumstances of this scenario call for a downsizing of the group by 2 through extermination. Who should the 2 who are exterminated be?

[heart]

^Why should anyone have the right to decide if someone else is killed? This whole topic is on the level eugenics or genocide type thinking. Once that's out of the bag, who is to say where it should stop?

[Bella]

For realz, Baroness Warnock?
You obviously lost your marbles due to old age and should be taken to the vet to be put out.

[Jennifer]

I didn't read the article but I remember discussing this with a friend once and the conversation went something like this.... Remove your emotions for a minute and imagine that there is a group of 10 people made up of 5 males and 5 females ranging in ages from birth to age 75. And the particular circumstances of this scenario call for a downsizing of the group by 2 through extermination. Who should the 2 who are exterminated be?

Hopefully the volunteers.

[YourLocalJesus]

Aside from my gut reaction of NO! I think when Warnock says we should probably think about how this plays out. The way she says it is a harsh but it's kind of true.

I agree... The first thing I think about is that it's bad etc, but then again, how many lives are not fucked up by taking care of someone in a relative vegetable state? Not to mention the sacrifices everyone else has to make, how many other productive jobs all these caretakers could do. It's not a matter of touchy-feelyness it's a damn matter of the economics of the western world.
700.000 in little U.K. alone, wich will double to 1,4 million in a few decades. And that is just dementia.

When I've grown too old or become too ill to take care of myself, I will kill myself before I become a burden to those around me. I'll probably do it with narcotic medication overdose. Hopefully morphine.

[proteanmix]

I agree that no one should have their human dignity stolen from them and put down like chattel.

But as someone who is dealing with a similar situation (we're searching for assisted living homes for my grandmother who is in the early stages of dementia) there are some practical decisions you have to make. She was living with my parents until last year and is now living with her older sister (87). My main point is who will care and how will the elderly person be taken care of? What if the person in question has major health issues? What if they're on fixed income and can't afford assisted living or nursing homes? What if they have no family members available to be financially supportive? I guess that the person is human with human emotions is a given to me so it's not about that.

Hmmm, I did the same exercise in college to. We all voted to let the older people go. We don't live in a culture that venerates the elderly and it would run counter to the die-hard individualism we adhere to. Collectivistic cultures do a much better job and caring for family members (nuclear and extended) than our culture. You can simply look at the astounding numbers of homeless in our cities. Getting old is something we run away from kicking and screaming so I'm not really surprised that eventually we'd just want to sweep the elderly away like we do with other inconveniences (just to be clear, I'm being sarcastic). I've talked about this with my parents both of whom are in their late 60s. My parents are older than most of my peers and we've already had lengthy conversations about what they want when/if they reach the stage they can no longer care for themselves. A lot of this has to do with how much preparation and communication a family does for the inevitable aging process. It doesn't have to come out of nowhere and blindside everyone.

Fact Sheets - Assisted Living (http://www.eldercare.gov/eldercare/Public/resources/fact_sheets/assisted_living.asp)

WHAT IS THE COST FOR ASSISTED LIVING?
Although assisted living costs less than nursing home care, it is still fairly expensive. Depending on the kind of assisted living facility and type of services an older person chooses, the price costs can range from less than $10,000 a year to more than $50,000 a year. Across the U.S., monthly rates average $1,800 per month.

[Anja]

Good point, protean.

It's all a semi-useful exercise in humane decision-making until one has actually been there. Preparation is useful and probably necessary as when the moments arrive there will be some shock and confusion involved.

I'll interject a small story from experience about the emotional turmoil created in me when my father begn to die.

Dad just wore out, like "The one-horse shay." The cause of death was listed as pneumonia but it wasn't viral. His throat was just too tired to swallow anymore and he was aspirating his food into his lungs.

The doctor explained that dad was basically healthy for an eighty-six year-old and would still be able to live for a considerable period of time. He would need to be placed on life-support and fed intervaneously in order to do so.

His cognitive function was failing, but he was still in that grey area between clarity and confusion, probably failing because his brain wasn't receiving sufficient oxygen.

The family gathered and were in agreement that he should be allowed to die. But we also wanted Dad to make the final decision.

The doctor met with him and laid out the options and Dad chose not to be put on machinery.

This is where moral conflict set it for me. I sat in hospice with my dad for four days. He was to be kept comfortable but given not food or drink. Essentially the medical system expected him to starve himself to death. Much more they couldn't offer. And Dad did and I helped him as best I could.

But about the second night I began to feel angry as I lay in the dark with him listening to his struggle. My dad was an honorable and gentle man. He wouldn't have expected a creature which had outlived it's years to have to die the way he was having to.

You can imagine, being INFP, that I am one of the most tender-hearted spirits and have only killed a living thing once in my life - a mercy killing of a wounded bird. That was so painful to me that I determined that I would never again take the life of another living thing.

But there at night, hearing my father working so hard to die, I thought to place a pillow over his face! This is the first I've ever talked about it. I wouldn't expect many who haven't had the situation to understand the horror of that conflict. But I do understand it well now.

Why was a good man being forced to die in a situation one wouldn't place a beloved pet?

I asked the doctor how much longer it would go on and he said it could last past a week. This was a shock as I thought no one could live that long without food and water but apparently it's possible as the elderly need less.

I have no particular point other than that continued helpless feeling about how this problem can be solved in an ethical way. And a deeper understanding of people who "assist" in loved one's deaths.

[heart]

I agree... The first thing I think about is that it's bad etc, but then again, how many lives are not fucked up by taking care of someone in a relative vegetable state? Not to mention the sacrifices everyone else has to make, how many other productive jobs all these caretakers could do. It's not a matter of touchy-feelyness it's a damn matter of the economics of the western world.
700.000 in little U.K. alone, wich will double to 1,4 million in a few decades. And that is just dementia.

When I've grown too old or become too ill to take care of myself, I will kill myself before I become a burden to those around me. I'll probably do it with narcotic medication overdose. Hopefully morphine.

Demenita is not the same as vegatative state.




^Anja's story, though emotional and heart touching, is about a man who presumably has reached a terminal state of life, that's not the case for most with demenita and demenita in particular is what this whole article was about, the wanting to put people down like unwanted animals because they have demenita and are difficult for busy people to work into their schedules. Apples and oranges in this discussion.

I know it hurts to watch a loved one suffer, my own mother suffered with diabetic neurophy of the digestive tract in the last year of her life and it was awful to watch but she didn't wish to die and tried to fight it. And yeah it was a drain on our "resources" but she was a human being who deserved the right to fight to live if she wanted to. She'd been ill with lung disease (life long NON smoker) for about ten years and yes I am sure so many of these death advocates would be itching to get their hands on her and put her down because she wasn't "productive."

With comments like "duty to die" I foresee a future were people in weakened conditions are pressured into "doing the right thing" and just DIE already, let the people around them murder them.

[Anja]

I see, heart. I slipped some sideways there. Though I suppose some would say that my father had reached a state of social uselessness.

This idea of being "useless" is a hard one for me to buy. I trust all here to be of use to each other. And while I can't always see what the purpose of some humans is, I think there must be one. I sometimes do some volunteer work in a care center and there are people there who don't know who they are or who anyone else is. They can't dress themselves, etc. But sometimes two of them will sit together and absently hold each other's hands, beyond verbal communication; Perhaps even beyond understanding or caring. And I can't believe that they aren't serving a purpose at the moment.

Even more troubling to me is that so many of us buy the lie. That if we can't actively serve humankind that we are worthless. Disposable. One of the many pitfalls of our very materialistic social POV.

My mother is a Bible-reading Christian and she was, for a time, very troubled by the verse, "Faith, without works, is dead."

[YourLocalJesus]

Demenita is not the same as vegatative state.


Sorry, i'm just used to talking swedish all day long. We use our word for vegetable (grönsak) to describe a lot of bad traits, but usually it means something with heavy retardation. :D Gotta admit that it changes my view on the word "vegetable" in english a bit, too ;)

[kyuuei]

When you take what the article is saying for theoretical face-value, it makes perfect sense. The amount of time and effort taken into trying to keep someone unaware of reality takes away from the time people might be spending improving the society while they themselves still function in it.

The problem is, theories are only that. In reality.. when I grow old.. out of reality or not, I would like to have known someone cared about be enough to take time out of their day to at least care for me.. and when I can no longer be an asset to them, to at least visit me at the retirement home. In return, I do the same for my family. Currently, my grandmother has Dementia, (both of them do, but I only care for one.) and I insist on taking time to visit her, read to her and listen to her complain of things that don't exist because I know behind that, she knows we're visiting her and continuing to be in her life until the very end. There's a sort of selfless love to that and I feel it's acts like that that contribute to society on an entirely different level.

[Anja]

You make me grin and feel fuzzyallover, Kyuuei. Hee.

[Angry Ayrab]

On a related story:

My grandmother took care of my Grandfather for three years as he was calling it quits. My grandmother also raised me at a time before my grandfather called it quits. She now can't do the things she used too but mentally she is fine. Basically she needs a strapping young lad around the house to do many of the chores she used to. I could never ever ever imagine allowing her to leave the comfort of the home she has enjoyed for the last 30 years and the one she allowed me to live in and care for me when I needed the care at a younger age. I could never imagine letting a stranger care for her, because she never let a stranger handle me when I was younger. So I live with her and love it. She is funny entertaining and kind and I see it as a favor of hers to allow me to care for her in her home. I always thank her for allowing me to live free of charge in her house and she always tells me to shut the fuck up and quit being a prick.

Anyway, what I am trying to get at, is that we owe the people who cared for us and allowed us to become who we are, our lives. That is just the way it works. Now obviously as a person that practically lives in the hospital, I know that this isn't always possible, and a mobily challanged geriatric isn't like a demented one, but you should always try to care for them yourself as much as possible to the best of your abilities. I see it that each person is dealt a hand in life and each of us has to play with the hand we are dealt, and not just cop out of our bet. That is all. NOw this is just my opinion and I hope it does not bring offense to anyone.

PS: Let it be known that if I get old and am on my death bed, I want to go out with a shit load of morphine, that stuff rocks.

[The_Liquid_Laser]

I didn't read the article but I remember discussing this with a friend once and the conversation went something like this.... Remove your emotions for a minute and imagine that there is a group of 10 people made up of 5 males and 5 females ranging in ages from birth to age 75. And the particular circumstances of this scenario call for a downsizing of the group by 2 through extermination. Who should the 2 who are exterminated be?

If these were the last 10 people on Earth then I'd probably pick the two oldest males. Otherwise it seems kinda arbitrary to me. In modern society I'm not sure how you could say one person has more of a right to live than another, but that's just the way I see it. Who would you pick?

[Anja]

I agree, LL. There's nothing more disposable than an old male! Maybe we could save just one here and there as a donor of sperm of dubious quality and kill the young while they're still poisoned by testosterone.

*Takes tongue out of cheek*

Actually, I have a few thousand thoughts on how social pressure creates that in men and what a treacherous society we Western folk have for males in general. I suppose I'll soapbox on them sometime.

I'm with you on sense of duty and repayment, Ayrab. And your present avatar is leaving me speechless with laughter. Whacky!