Birth Order and Intellectual Independence

[Jack Flak]

A hypothesis has just occured to me:

First-borns and only children have greater intellectual independence, leading to conviction in judgment and higher skill in such things as debate.

Younger siblings rely heavily on older siblings for judgments, thus, on average, have reduced ability to think on their own.

This is purely concerned with environment, thus if children are raised separately, it doesn't apply.

What say you?

[ajblaise]

I am a first-born, and I like to debate. I have two younger sisters, with the younger one being less outspoken than the middle one.

I'm not sure how childhood social life might effect this, I had a big group of friends as a kid, but think it had no effect on mental independence.

[Ivy]

I can back it up anecdotally. I pretty much idolized my older brother and had to consciously form my own identity apart from him as a young adult. I had to decide whether I really liked music because I liked it, or because he liked it, things like that.

I have always kicked ass at debate (don't really do it much anymore because it's exhausting and I don't care to be right so much anymore), but even that was in part because he liked having a scrappy little sister who kicked ass.

[Lateralus]

A hypothesis has just occured to me:

First-borns and only children have greater intellectual independence, leading to conviction in judgment and higher skill in such things as debate.

Younger siblings rely heavily on older siblings for judgments, thus, on average, have reduced ability to think on their own.

This is purely concerned with environment, thus if children are raised separately, it doesn't apply.

What say you?
I'm the oldest and obviously love to debate, but I have 7 younger siblings and 3 of them love to debate, as well...and they're the three youngest. That doesn't necessarily contradict your hypothesis, but I'd have to think on it for a while to figure out exactly why.

[booyalab]

Older siblings don't have the cute factor so they have to try to convince parents on their level. I know I was the only one who could compel my dad to do anything. He would sometimes remark to my mom later "I don't know how she got me to let her do such-and-such, I was going to say no."

[Jennifer]

A hypothesis has just occured to me:

First-borns and only children have greater intellectual independence, leading to conviction in judgment and higher skill in such things as debate.

Younger siblings rely heavily on older siblings for judgments, thus, on average, have reduced ability to think on their own.

This is purely concerned with environment, thus if children are raised separately, it doesn't apply.

What say you?

It's not a bad idea for a research project; but I think the conclusion is so broad as to be meaningless if it's only going to be abstractly/informally debated, and that there is also a multiplicity of factors that can impact intellectual independence.

What strateg(ies) would you use to properly isolate the variable you're theorizing about?

Right now, the responses here -- while interesting anecdotes -- are mostly just begging the question.

[ajblaise]

I think first-borns might end up arguing with their parents more partly because since they are their parents first kid, they don't really know what they are doing, so the first-born will seize upon their child naivety and unsureness with argument to get what they want.

[Jack Flak]

It's not a bad idea for a research project...What strateg(ies) would you use to properly isolate the variable you're theorizing about?
None. I've no interest in conducting a study, nor discovering a purpose for the resulting data. I'll leave that to an ENTP.

If my idea and the resulting contemplation by others results in a greater awareness of the nuances of the human psyche by anyone, I consider my mission accomplished.

[ptgatsby]

It's not a bad idea for a research project; but I think the conclusion is so broad as to be meaningless if it's only going to be abstractly/informally debated, and that there is also a multiplicity of factors that can impact intellectual independence.

What strateg(ies) would you use to properly isolate the variable you're theorizing about?


Can I take credit for this? I so want to take credit for this :hug: Bah, I know I can't :D

(I actually have no idea how to isolate the environmental factors here! Perhaps age gap, assuming that older-older didn't step in like closer siblings... but that's weak, and you get into the resource issues again, etc.)

[Thursday]

i am the only childz

[Jack Flak]

i am the only childz
As am I, for the record.

[Thursday]

As am I, for the record.

the two of us together, with legos and $5 between us ?
all hell breaking loose

what else does this imply - the only child thingy ?

[Jennifer]

If my idea and the resulting contemplation by others results in a greater awareness of the nuances of the human psyche by anyone, I consider my mission accomplished.

Uh... what nuances? :huh:

Your idea: The eldest child might be more intellectual independent (because he's the eldest).

Opposing idea: The eldest child reflects the parents values because s/he is expected to champion the family.

At this level of conversation, both sound believable. And both can be supported via anecdote.

Without a more rigorous approach/discussion, we've learned nothing.

[Bella]

A hypothesis has just occured to me:

First-borns and only children have greater intellectual independence, leading to conviction in judgment and higher skill in such things as debate.

Younger siblings rely heavily on older siblings for judgments, thus, on average, have reduced ability to think on their own.

This is purely concerned with environment, thus if children are raised separately, it doesn't apply.

What say you?

In my family it is my brother, the youngest out of three, who is intellectualy independent. He also has the most eccentric personality. I think this had to do with him being allowed to just be because he was was the only boy.

[Jack Flak]

...what else does this imply - the only child thingy ?
Another hypothesis? So much pressure. ;)

I did note in the OP that higher intellectual independence also applies to only children. I think it's further increased, because we have to "stand on our own ground" even more. Perhaps we also have less of a need to convince others of our position--But this is even more hypothetical than the OP.

(Being an only child leads to many other differences probably best discussed in a more general thread.)

In my family it is my brother, the youngest out of three, who is intellectualy independent. He also has the most eccentric personality. I think this had to do with him being allowed to just be because he was was the only boy.
How many years younger is he than the next-oldest sibling? This matters. I would say, completely off the top of my head, that a three to five year difference would have the greatest impact on intellectual independence.

[entropie]

A hypothesis has just occured to me:

First-borns and only children have greater intellectual independence, leading to conviction in judgment and higher skill in such things as debate.

Younger siblings rely heavily on older siblings for judgments, thus, on average, have reduced ability to think on their own.

This is purely concerned with environment, thus if children are raised separately, it doesn't apply.

What say you?

I have a 15 year old sister and I am 25, so I was pretty much raised as single child. Your relation fits perfectly for my situation and my sister's aswell.

Intresting to see are the combinations, there are in my circle of friends. One friend was raised only child and he has a VERY strong conviction in judgement. While my girlfriend for example was raised as third child and had had, due to being a judgemental character, a very hard time with getting along with her family in the past. Her other character traits are Introversion, what pretty fits into the situation aswell.

Thought about birth order alot myself and I think there can be deep connection to it in relation with MBTI.

What would be really intresting are the mavericks in the theory. I myself was raised by two Introverted Sensors. My childhood was exemplary, I love my parents and I had everything a child needs. But I am pretty much Extrovert and sentences like "Our children are both the same, they always listen more to what their friends say than doing what is right" have grown a custom, within these walls here ..

[Thursday]

i wonder if there is a formula for parents to children
my mom is an ISFP, my father ENTP
i am an INFJ

any ideas ?

[Jack Flak]

...any ideas ?
Types of parents are significant in various ways because we tend to interact with them so much. (But I don't think it affects our type.)

[dorareever]

I'm an only child and very independent intellectually. But then again I've been raised by an ENTP mother an an INTP father. I've always been encouraged to debating ideas, and trying to find my own. Maybe it would have been different with SJ's parents. But then again my SJ's babysitter spent lots of time with me and the only thing she accomplished was giving me clinical depression :D

[Grayscale]

What say you?

I was a middle child and arguably the most independent (oldest son) followed by my older sister. my younger brother is the most family-oriented and similar to my parents out of the kids.

[Jack Flak]

I was a middle child and arguably the most independent (oldest son) followed by my older sister.
Older sister: introvert or extrovert? It's a bit of an aside, but introverts are already more independent on average, so it all overlaps.

[Grayscale]

Older sister: introvert or extrovert? It's a bit of an aside, but introverts are already more independent on average, so this all overlaps.

definitely introverted, I think ISFP

what i was insinuating was that perhaps this should be expanded to include the first born of each sex, it wouldnt make much sense for me to use her as an example.

[substitute]

uh... well speaking from personal experience, I'm the middle of 5 and easily the most uh... "different-thinking" in my family. My ENFP brother is very non-conventional too, but when you want someone who's totally unshockable and will say the thing that makes everyone stare, it's me you come to. And I don't do it on purpose. In fact, I'm usually trying my hardest NOT to do it!! Oh, and my relatives also often remark on how they never count on being able to persuade or convince me of anything. My aunt put it this way "he'll listen to your points and take them on board, but as to whether it'll make any difference, you just can't ever tell. sometimes he'll totally give in and accommodate you, other times he won't budge an inch, and you can never really tell what it was with him that clinched it either way."

Of my kids, of which there are two, the oldest is very much the sheep, she'll do anything to fit in, and the youngest really couldn't give a shit, she will always just be herself and makes no apologies for it to anyone.

My sister has 4 kids and it's the second youngest who's the most independently minded.

So... my experience tends to say that in fact younger kids are more likely to buck against expectations based on elder siblings' performances, plus they're also less likely to HAVE so much expectation placed on them anyway, and so perhaps would feel freer to pursue unconventional avenues...

[booyalab]

So... my experience tends to say that in fact younger kids are more likely to buck against expectations based on elder siblings' performances, plus they're also less likely to HAVE so much expectation placed on them anyway, and so perhaps would feel freer to pursue unconventional avenues...

I think you've got a slightly different idea of what it means to be independently minded than the OP. Being different for the sake of being different is not intellectual independence.

[Hmm]

I would think some of it also depends on how far apart in age the siblings are and how well they get along too.

[substitute]

I think you've got a slightly different idea of what it means to be independently minded than the OP. Being different for the sake of being different is not intellectual independence.

I think you've got a slightly different idea of what I meant to what I actually meant ;)
I was alluding to an idea that elder siblings might feel more pressurized by expectations of them being sensible, settings examples etc, so that if they genuinely ARE independently minded they might be more likely to repress it than a younger sibling.

edit - IOW I don't think independent mindedness has anything to do with birth order in itself, though how much a person's natural inclination that way would manifest itself externally might be affected. You can't tell by someone external behaviour alone, what processes lead to each action. For example, quite often I go along with expectations, but it's more by coincidence; I've decided for reasons of my own that this thing is what I want to do. It's just a coincidence (and added bonus, for brownie point potential useful for future leverage) if it happens to also be the thing that someone else expected/wanted/approved of me doing.

[FDG]

I'm a first born and I am intellectually very dependent on the size of the boobs of the person I am speaking to. My intellectual independence is a decreasing function of the aforementioned size.

[booyalab]

You can't tell by someone external behaviour alone, what processes lead to each action.

Weren't you just doing that with your kids?

You're probably right that I have a "different idea" of what you meant. I didn't get any clearer of a picture of what you were saying with your second or third explanation. For some reason the smiley didn't help either. I don't know.

[substitute]

Weren't you just doing that with your kids?

You're probably right that I have a "different idea" of what you are saying. I didn't get any clearer of a picture of what you were saying with your second explanation. For some reason the smiley didn't help either. I don't know.

If you're talking 'generally' about the general population, theorizing about people you don't know well or even at all, then it's unwise to assume that external behaviour tells all you need to know about the internal process that led to it.

However, with people you know very well, such as one's own kids, family members, closest friends etc, after a while it becomes safer to make educated guesses. It's still not conclusive though.

Not having done any serious research into the matter, but simply throwing things from experience onto the table in the brainstorming manner which Jack seemed to be inviting in the OP, my loose hypothesis was this:

Elder siblings are often expected to be responsible, sensible, to set examples for younger ones and tow the line. This together with younger ones tending to be seen as 'the baby' for longer often also means elder siblings receive stronger discipline and harsher punishments for stepping out of line. Being an independent thinker GENERALLY tends to mean a person spends a lot of time being misunderstood or seen as a trouble maker. I hypothesize that the pressures mentioned above which commonly fall on the shoulders of elder siblings might therefore make it less likely that they would externally manifest obvious signs of independent mindedness, should they possess it. Younger siblings however, being often freer from these heavy expectations and often more likely to have the 'symptoms' of independent mindedness, their 'little idiosyncrasies' indulged. they might therefore be more likely to externally manifest the results of their unconventional ways of thinking.

However, this is all taking it as read that any of these hypothetical people actually are naturally independently minded in the first place, which I don't believe results itself from anything to do with birth order.

[miked277]

First-borns and only children ... [are different than younger siblings]

i have adjusted your hypothesis to something more accurately reflecting reality.

that's like calling the first person to construct a computer the only one able to or with a chance think independently in the field that ever existed and all subsequent updates, upgrades or changes were done by people of lesser ability to think on their own or innovate. your argument about one group of people relying on the judgement of another group and thus becoming unable to judge wisely/appropriately/correctly/strongly themselves just seems really silly.

what first borns actually do is provide a standard to which further offspring are judged which says nothing about ability or performance. they have more independence in determining the standard but that's about as far as i would go in drawing conslusions of the type you are trying to draw. personality more so than birth order affects what you're talking about.

[substitute]

...but that's a good point too... ^^^

I guess it largely depends on the attitudes of the parents too. Do you have free spirited parents that encourage freedom, or do you have conservative, stern parents who prioritize instilling their own values?

[Tallulah]

I'm the oldest, and definitely the more independent thinker. My sister would watch me argue with my parents, trying to get my point across (I didn't care if I got punished, but I was going to make sure they understood where I was coming from.), while she would just agree with whatever they said, even if her actual stance was different. It wasn't important to her to be understood. It was more important to her not to be grounded, so she could talk on the phone and go out with her friends. I don't know if it's because of birth order, though. I think it's just the difference in our personalities.

[colmena]

I think there's very little difference between my older brother and I for intellectual independence.

[substitute]

I'm the oldest, and definitely the more independent thinker. My sister would watch me argue with my parents, trying to get my point across (I didn't care if I got punished, but I was going to make sure they understood where I was coming from.), while she would just agree with whatever they said, even if her actual stance was different. It wasn't important to her to be understood. It was more important to her not to be grounded, so she could talk on the phone and go out with her friends. I don't know if it's because of birth order, though. I think it's just the difference in our personalities.

But does that actually mean you're a more independent thinker, or does it just mean you're more stubborn??

[Tallulah]

But does that actually mean you're a more independent thinker, or does it just mean you're more stubborn??

Yeah, well, I am that, as well. I'm not sure what the OP means by independent thinker, but since I'm the INTP in a family of SJs, just about all my thoughts were radical to them, and I didn't know anything about MBTI until I was grown. I tended to take things situation by situation, evaluating whether X actually made sense, where they tended to weigh it against what society expects. Not knocking SJs in general, just saying that my thoughts and theirs didn't mesh very often.

[Haphazard]

HAHAHAHAHA no.

For this to hold true, my parents would have had to have had some trouble with a time machine and a condom.

The older sibling is certainly more vocal, however. And by 'vocal' I mean 'whiny.'

[Jack Flak]

i have adjusted your hypothesis to something more accurately reflecting reality....
Do I detect the debate skill of a "baby of the family?" j/k :D I take what seems to be disagreement with my hypothesis into consideration.

My hypothesis (and it is just that), in another way of speaking, refers to trust. When we are young, we trust our parents, and though I've never had an older sibling, I imagine they are trusted too. With the trust in someone else's conviction, one need not necessarily make one's own decision. It is the addition of elder siblings to the equation which I was contemplating.

[CaptainChick]

i have adjusted your hypothesis to something more accurately reflecting reality.

that's like calling the first person to construct a computer the only one able to or with a chance think independently in the field that ever existed and all subsequent updates, upgrades or changes were done by people of lesser ability to think on their own or innovate. your argument about one group of people relying on the judgement of another group and thus becoming unable to judge wisely/appropriately/correctly/strongly themselves just seems really silly.

what first borns actually do is provide a standard to which further offspring are judged which says nothing about ability or performance. they have more independence in determining the standard but that's about as far as i would go in drawing conslusions of the type you are trying to draw. personality more so than birth order affects what you're talking about.
Money post! :D

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And when I actually get up and shake this grogginess off, I'm gonna drop bombs disproving the, yes, false generalizations spewed in the OP!

HAHAHHHAHAHAHAHA

So laughable man!

I have several books that are just waiting to be quoted from!

:D

[Peguy]

My understanding was that the first-borns are usually more supportive of the status quo, while younger siblings are more the rebels. There's several other factors to consider.


For the record: I'm the youngest of two, and I seem to enjoy intellectual discourse more than my older sibling. As far as indendence goes: my sibling has a more visible external sense of independence, wheras mine is more internal is nature.

[miked277]

and on a side note, not to belittle any eldest or only children posting here but being the way you are compared to your siblings (embodying the traits mentioned in the OP) is a result of several variables which can't be simplified down to mere birth order.

i would consider myself fairly intelligent, i also have brown eyes. is there a correlation?

[Jack Flak]

and on a side note, not to belittle any eldest or only children posting here but being the way you are compared to your siblings (embodying the traits mentioned in the OP) is a result of several variables which can't be simplified down to mere birth order.
Indeed, that goes without saying. I attempted to isolate one variable in the equation, temporarily ignoring the others. It's difficult to do so in a subject which disallows access to pure data. It is merely meant for contemplation.

[Night]

I like your spirit here, Jack.

Trying to develop a positive connection between birth order and personality is a curious egg to crack.

I'd say my younger brother is fat with intellectual independence, as his reticule is firmly planted on developing himself outside of mainstream academia. With this same thought in tow, I could also argue that his bullheadedness towards this end renders him strangely bereft of independence, as his attitude creates a powerful weakness to the same mainstream culture he's trying to buck.

Damn ENTJ.

[Jack Flak]

...his reticule is firmly planted on developing himself outside of mainstream academia. With this same thought in tow, I could also argue that his bullheadedness towards this end renders him strangely bereft of independence, as his attitude creates a powerful weakness to the same mainstream culture he's trying to buck.
If I were trying to argue my case...which I may be...I would say he lacks the internal conviction I speak of. His "convictions" are somewhat based on those around him, and are therefore dependent.

[Night]

If I were trying to argue my case...which I may be...I would say he lacks the internal conviction I speak of. His "convictions" are somewhat based on those around him, and are therefore dependent.

I like this statement.

Is it ever possible to generate thought systems that are truly independent of external convictions taught to us?

[Jack Flak]

Is it ever possible to generate thought systems that are truly independent of external convictions taught to us?
I say "No." It's a question of degree.

[Evan]

I'm definitely more intellectually independent than my brother (not by that much though), but I don't think that would have changed had our genes been traded.

He's an ENTP, I'm an INFJ. I'd say it's hard to be more intellectually independent than an INxx type unless you're another INxx type.

Also, I think these results might be skewed because lots of people here are INxx.

[563 740]

My dad was the last of 5 and far & away the most intellectually independent of the entire bunch. Sorry mang. :)

[Night]

Would others agree that intellectual independence (such that this thread offers) is more commonly expressed in introverts than extroverts?

[Jack Flak]

The personal experiences of those in this thread are...basically irrelevant in making any assessment, unless we hear 10,000 more stories. To get any meaningful scientific average, the number of "test cases" would have to be large enough to outweigh the other variables such as MBTI type.

Would others agree that intellectual independence (such that this thread offers) is more commonly expressed in introverts than extroverts?
Yes.

[Night]

Are you ascribing this probability to function preference then, Jack?

The personal experiences of those in this thread are...basically irrelevant in making any assessment, unless we hear 10,000 more stories. To get any meaningful scientific average, the number of "test cases" would have to be large enough to outweigh the other variables such as MBTI type.


Agreed.

Even then, the criteria is pretty subjective. We are working with indefinite/unempirical terminology.

[563 740]

The personal experiences of those in this thread are...basically irrelevant in making any assessment, unless we hear 10,000 more stories. To get any meaningful scientific average, the number of "test cases" would have to be large enough to outweigh the other variables such as MBTI type.

No way dude, we're not leaving this thread until this issue gets resolved. ;)

But yeah, I could honestly argue it either way - is kid one going to develop his own "set" that's going to get aped by kid two, or is kid two, having seen 3 other sets, going to go off and develop his own unique approach?

I think it was already mentioned, but I'd reckon that age difference plays a huge part. I'm only a year older than my brother and there was really never any of that "Gosh golly gee my big bro' is so grown up & cool & I wanna be just like him some day" dynamic that you get when there's like a 5 year age gap.

[Jack Flak]

Are you ascribing this probability to function preference then, Jack?
Not necessarily, though it could be called that by others unerroneously.

Introverts are more contemplative (I hope that we can simply agree on that), and by Jung's definition, more concerned with the subject (self) than object, so higher conviction from within simply stands to reason.

[Nocapszy]

Would others agree that intellectual independence (such that this thread offers) is more commonly expressed in introverts than extroverts?

More commonly? Maybe.
ISFs... heh... uh... usually don't even know what independent means.
I'd probably attribute it to __TP quicker than anything else.
Though that is the stain of a specific introverted function, so... kinda.

Ni would be the only trump, but often enough its pairing judgement's extraverted ties ground them too firmly to conventional metrics to really allow them to be as unbound as a Ti.

[Jack Flak]

(I missed this)
Even then, the criteria is pretty subjective. We are working with indefinite/unempirical terminology.
Naturally. A study would be like some other socio-psychological studies without a hardcore foundation in science itself. And the results? Likely simply interesting as opposed to incredibly important.

[Aimahn]

Thats an interesting point. I think the open endedness and the T combine to create a love for verbal sparring, which usually ends up in forming a more independent opinion. While my oldest sister(ISFJ) is very independent and assertive in her actions a lot of her values and stances on things are just derivations of things.

I think since I like to take in information from everywhere and don't like closure I end up creating a very unique to myself opinon that incorporates a lot of things, while her sources are fewer and therefore more common to what others think.

[Thursday]

Would others agree that intellectual independence (such that this thread offers) is more commonly expressed in introverts than extroverts?

Here here, brother #2
i would venture to say the witholding of such gifts is more common among Introverts, too.

[Dwigie]

I'm kind of easy to persuade and convince..I'm very gullible. Sometimes I question my own independence of thought ...hm..yeah I'm a middle kid, and a girl so people pounded their beliefs hard on me, but I gained some detachment from these beliefs and opinions and I feel a little less dependent.

[Hmm]

I might be clingy and adhere to tradition but I'm the most independent thinker of my 4 siblings and I'm the youngest so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[heart]

tritto

I had a very mixed upbrining. Until age nine I was the youngest by ten years of five children and then after that I was the only child at home. I was my parent's only child they had together. I wouldn't even know what to consider myself. Only child, baby, mascot, lol.

[563 740]

Naturally. A study would be like some other socio-psychological studies without a hardcore foundation in science itself. And the results? Likely simply interesting as opposed to incredibly important.

Just to play :devil:'s Advocate, how the hell would one even quantify Intellectual Independence?

[ajblaise]

Just to play :devil:'s Advocate, how the hell would one even quantify Intellectual Independence?

Kant on Enlightenment: He described it "simply as freedom to use one's own intelligence".

I kinda like that way of thinking about it.

[Jack Flak]

Just to play :devil:'s Advocate, how the hell would one even quantify Intellectual Independence?
I hesitate to even use the term, as I physically hate Freud, but "Psychoanalysis, perhaps."

[edcoaching]

Yeah, how would you separate out...

I'm last of 5 but INTJ big bro is 13 years older than me, barely knew him
The 4 big bro's couldn't have cared less about school, so any meager attempt I made was great in my parents' eyes. They left me alone, no nagging!
My dad actually thought girls could be anything they wanted to be (a lot of my friends were still hearing "Why would we pay for college? You're just going to get married and have kids...")


In some birth order lit, since there's a five year gap between me and my next-oldest bro, I'm another firstborn.

But I'm definitely smarter than my brothers ;)

[Jack Flak]

...how would you...
Defining parameters would be the least of the worries. Include age difference range, etc.

*does not take 2-3 days on the beach*

[FDG]

Would others agree that intellectual independence (such that this thread offers) is more commonly expressed in introverts than extroverts?

It may be, but you have to check for a ceteris paribus condition of everything else. Thus, I expect that IRL the correlation becomes extremely spurious, to the point of non recognizability.

[Jack Flak]

It may be, but you have to check for a ceteris paribus condition of everything else. Thus, I expect that IRL the correlation becomes extremely spurious, to the point of non recognizability.
As I believe I said though, If it's possible to isolate one variable in a large enough study by determining the true/false value in every test case, the other variables will become statistically insignificant.

For example, if I want to figure out if red cubes are heavier on average than blue cubes, I simply split the cubes into two groups and weigh every cube. If I have 10,000 cubes total, the material and size of each cube becomes insignificant on the whole. (Though I suspect I would find red and blue cubes are approximately equal in weight, statistically ;))

[febrilesasha]

I think there is definitely something to this. My situation is a bit different, as I'm the youngest of two, but my older brother has always been mentally handicapped and so in a sense I've taken on the role of the older sibling --- but it's not the same as being an actual first born child. I'm an INFP but I'm very close (almost right on) the T border.

However, birth order is something I'm extremely interested in, largely because of my own uncommon experience. One thing I've recently noticed (without even having the MBTI in mind) is that every single person I've ever seriously dated (this is 4-5 people depending on what you consider "serious") has been the first born child with younger siblings. It just so happens that intellectual independence is extremely important/necessary to me in a partner, second only to if not tied with compassion. So obviously, all have had this trait. I've noticed a few posts on introversion and birth order, so I'll note that 80% of the time they've been introverted.

[mlittrell]

this is a nurture thing, not a nature thing. birth order itself would not be the cause of this. my older brother is ehh debating, i would like to say im ok, and my younger sister is good if she knows what she is talking about.

[Anja]

tritto

O solo mio.:violin: (Me too.)

___________________________________________

I saw this in my kids. Son thought his older sister was his mom. Thought she was God, actually.

But recently my son came near death and his sister was crying and saying, "He can't die! He's my twin." I never knew she felt that way.

[Usehername]

I'm lucky in that I have a very close friend who grew up in a startlingly similar family situation as I did; it's great for comparisons such as these.

He and I are 3 days apart in age, and the eldest of 4 kids. Our sisters are 3 years younger, our brothers are 5 years younger, and our youngest sisters are 7 (him) and 8 (me) years younger.


He: ENFP with ENFP mom and INTJ dad.
Me: INTJ with ENFP dad and ISFJ mom.



Basically, we both agree that our younger siblings get away with more than we did at their age, and also that as our parents get more practiced, it shows with their parenting skills. We both feel we had to "work them in" yet didn't reap the benefits because it took a while for our parents to get the hang of things.

From our conversations, I had the harder time of us two considering the fact that I grew up in a household full of very xxFx types (my iNtJ being a small "t" is learned, not natural). Our youngest sisters are both xSFJs, and I don't see any correlation to sibling order regarding intellectual independence, only MBTI.

[GZA]

How does sibling order correlate to MBTI?



I think in my own family me and my brother are more argumentative and everything than our older sister. My brother is a freak of nature when it comes to intellectual independance -he literally knows everything. He just explores it I guess. He's the middle child.

[Usehername]

How does sibling order correlate to MBTI?



I think in my own family me and my brother are more argumentative and everything than our older sister. My brother is a freak of nature when it comes to intellectual independance -he literally knows everything. He just explores it I guess. He's the middle child.

I phrased it badly; I meant to say that the only differences would be attributed to individual personality rather than order of siblings (i.e. the youngest two are xSFJs and us two eldest are generally more independent-thinking MBTI types).

[Kaizer]

I phrased it badly; I meant to say that the only differences would be attributed to individual personality rather than order of siblings (i.e. the youngest two are xSFJs and us two eldest are generally more independent-thinking MBTI types).

I agree & further that being younger would make it more difficult for thinking types given that elder/st sibs get first/earlier dibs by default and maybe across the board too.

Amongst family members though, which type do you think has a tougher time relating to the other?

[animenagai]

i'm a first born, i am very intellectually independent. my sister's fantastically nuts now, but she wasn't always like that. i do believe it had a lot with wanting to be like me. she's still not intellectually dependent though. she doesn't like to think about the bigger issues.

[mollyowens]

I'm the eldest with one younger brother; I'm more prone to debate with my parents but also probably more concerned with what they think than he is. He doesn't care to argue about very many things but he also does his own thing without worrying much about parental reactions. I think older children feel more pressure to perform; they may chafe under it by being somewhat argumentative but that doesn't mean they don't still feel the pressure to please and achieve.

[Condor]

As the oldest of four, I can totally relate to the "practice kid" concept. I am completely independent, intellectually and otherwise. I left home three weeks after I graduated high school and never looked back. There wasn't anything wrong, it was simply on my list of things to do.

I wouldn't say that my actions now are a result of how my parents raised me as the eldest, but watching them struggle to take care of us instilled the desire for me to get out of their way and take care of myself. I wonder if any of the other "oldests" had those same thoughts - to "get out of the way"...

As for debating, it never served a purpose.

[Mo_(operalover)]

Older siblings don't have the cute factor so they have to try to convince parents on their level. I know I was the only one who could compel my dad to do anything. He would sometimes remark to my mom later "I don't know how she got me to let her do such-and-such, I was going to say no."

My younger siblings always come to me when they want me to convince my mum to let them do something/go somewhere.