How rare are NT girls? Does society comdemn this personality type in females?

[ajblaise]

Most girls I seem to meet are SF's, as well as E's. The party scene is literally littered with them. Not that there aren't a lot of cool ESF's, but I sure wouldn't mind more INT's or NT's in general running around.

Do any of you think society rewards female ESF behavior over that of the INT? I am also wondering how rare they are in reality, I haven't found any stats on the issue.

[Didums]

NT

INTJ – Female: 0.8% ; Male: 3.3%

INTP – Female: 1.8% ; Male: 4.8%

ENTP – Female: 2.4% ; Male: 4.0%

ENTJ – Female: 0.9% ; Male: 2.7%

Source: Myers Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) Personality Traits (http://www.timeenoughforlove.org/MBTI.htm)


Never trust one source though however (this one happens to be old, from 1998), different sites tend to vary in their statistics. However, there is a general trend in most of them that there are significantly less NT females than NT males. It has to do with the differences in male and female brain structures/wirings.


**EDIT**: Jackpot:

Estimated Frequencies of Types - CAPT.org (http://www.capt.org/mbti-assessment/estimated-frequencies.htm)

[Jack Flak]

Official MBTI statistics are F'd. That's just my intuition speaking, but I trust it with my life every chance I get.

[Tallulah]

We are pretty rare. And if you met me in real life, just by chance, you might not realize I was NT, since I tend to chameleon a lot.

Life as an NT woman can generally be summed up like this:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l245/guitarmaven/squarepeg.jpg

People want you to be softer, less opinionated, less sarcastic, more supportive and maternal. They want you to care about concepts less and social activities more. They want you to spend your whole life dreaming of marriage and children, and pity you if you don't.

[animenagai]

these are some interesting stats. there are supposedly more J's than P in society (slightly), didn't know that. S vs N was kinda obvious, but these stats back it up quite well. they give a 1:2 ratio between N's and S's. that's significant. the F vs T divide in sexes is obvious too. i thought this may be a mainly S thing given the social norms in our society, but the same divide is amongst the N's. how interesting.

the one useful conclusion i've come to is that i'l jump the next N female i meet :D

[Jack Flak]

People taking the official MBTI are often doing so for other reasons than self-assessment, such as trying to impress an employer. Why on Earth do you think people test ISTJ more than ESFP?

[The_Liquid_Laser]

That's funny that ENTP is supposed to be the most common form of female NT, because I've known females of the other NT types, but I'm not sure if I've ever known an ENTP female.

[Jennifer]

That's funny that ENTP is supposed to be the most common form of female NT, because I've known females of the other NT types, but I'm not sure if I've ever known an ENTP female.

I have never known any in person.

(Then again, I don't think I've met any other INTP or ENTJ women in person either... just a few INTJs.)

Then again, look at how much "more common" it is.
Not really that much more at all.

[mlittrell]

Society looks well on NF girls, but looks at NF guys as sissies or not macho enough. They seem to think that, well, Talluha said it best
People want you to be softer, less opinionated, less sarcastic, more supportive and maternal. They want you to care about concepts less and social activities more. They want you to spend your whole life dreaming of marriage and children, and pity you if you don't

NT men seem to do fine.

SJs and SPs don't seem to have this problem.

[Jennifer]

People taking the official MBTI are often doing so for other reasons than self-assessment, such as trying to impress an employer. Why on Earth do you think people test ISTJ more than ESFP?

It depends on how they do the assess. If it's purely self-scoring, then yes, there's going to be bias (conscious or unconscious) in a situation where you have an idea of what the employer expects and what could happen to you if you do not conform to that. It does no good for people to risk their jobs (potentially) just to "be honest on a personality test."

[Jack Flak]

Haha. Go to the thread I just had a huge debate on that in....http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/8337-cultural-archetypes-stereotypes-modal-types.html

[Usehername]

The thing about NTs is that we're (generally) not that dumb.

Surface conformism can take you lots of places. After time you learn to read where and with whom you can be yourself.

I'd venture to guess there's lots of xNTx females we've all met whom we didn't recognize as such, because they were both intelligent enough and socially skilled enough to know that "being themselves" would be more hassle than just flying under the radar for an evening or an event.

[Haphazard]

How hard society is on an NT female depends entirely on who she associates with.

I have a feeling that it'd be hardest on INTP females. INTJs... not so much.

[Gen]

I find that anyone worth knowing actually finds NT females (me) a nice change of pace... even if I do say so myself :)

[ceecee]

I'd venture to guess there's lots of xNTx females we've all met whom we didn't recognize as such, because they were both intelligent enough and socially skilled enough to know that "being themselves" would be more hassle than just flying under the radar for an evening or an event.


Yep.

[Mondo]

NT girls are too rare, IMO.
NF girls aren't exactly common either.

[digesthisickness]

People want you to be softer, less opinionated, less sarcastic, more supportive and maternal. They want you to care about concepts less and social activities more. They want you to spend your whole life dreaming of marriage and children, and pity you if you don't.

i wouldn't mind someone pitying me if they'd keep it to themselves, but they seem to be compelled to let you know either by literally saying it or by trying to 'fix' you with pushy opinions, invites, suggestions, etc. males mostly seem to be like that when trying to convince you that going out with them is what you 'need'.

The thing about NTs is that we're (generally) not that dumb.

Surface conformism can take you lots of places. After time you learn to read where and with whom you can be yourself.

I'd venture to guess there's lots of xNTx females we've all met whom we didn't recognize as such, because they were both intelligent enough and socially skilled enough to know that "being themselves" would be more hassle than just flying under the radar for an evening or an event.

absolutely. when in certain modes, people are incredibly easy to read because they don't have to think about it. they do it without thinking because it's how they naturally are. they make it very clear what's expected, and what isn't said is ridiculously easy to watch and learn. after doing that from the day you're born, you get extremely good at reading situations.

the only time i'll consciously morph into who i'm talking to is when i'm in a business situation, or any other similar situation, where it's to my benefit (or a loved one's benefit) to play along and my detriment not to. i just do my best to keep those situations at a minimum for happiness' sake.

How hard society is on an NT female depends entirely on who she associates with.

wish i knew what that meant.

[substitute]

I don't know whether to participate in this thread or not. I mean, back when I was an NT girl I wasn't actually a girl at all, I just thought I was cos I looked like one... all the same I still got all the same downsides that genuine NT girls get and have those experiences in my past (meaning I relate a lot to much of what's said here but Usehername, digest etc). But yet now I'm a guy lol I think expectations of me HAVE changed and the way my NT-ness is 'received' has changed... not in all aspects, my parents and family still expect SF female behaviour from me, just as they did back when I looked like one. I'm still working with a counsellor to get over the hangups I have from a background of being told I "should" be a certain way, emotionally, and punishing myself for not being that way - and believing others will. In fact, they don't any more.

So in effect my participation by relating my experience can very much verify that yes, society is mean to NT females!!

[Usehername]

The other thing is that people (in my experience, xSFJ females) can get super clingy when they hear you make a wry comment or very non-standard observation about something... they treat you like a new toy and ask you questions you don't want to answer, or constantly will contrast your opinion with a "normal person's opinion" and will choose contrary to whatever position you hold because they see you as "not normal."

That's just a headache I hate dealing with.

....
Or is this just me? :huh:

[digesthisickness]

The other thing is that people (in my experience, xSFJ females) can get super clingy when they hear you make a wry comment or very non-standard observation about something... they treat you like a new toy and ask you questions you don't want to answer, or constantly will contrast your opinion with a "normal person's opinion" and will choose contrary to whatever position you hold because they see you as "not normal."

That's just a headache I hate dealing with.

....
Or is this just me? :huh:

no, it's not just you. when around certain females and males, and i say the things i say (don't have to tell you people), then that's what i hear from them. they like how i am and that's nice, but instead of it being a shared, mutual, give and take experience, then it can quickly become a burden because then it's like they want me around all the time... entertaining them like a circus bear. it gets exhausting and feels like i'm being bled dry. leaving the parts of me that are deeper, introspective, not 'socially' theoretical, etc. unused (therefore left in a concentrated form) and i have to get away from everyone like them in order to be the total 'me' again.

i'm having fun and being appreciated, and that's a great feeling, but it's for only one or two aspects of me. the joking part and/or the analytical part (which they prefer to mostly be about them and/or something shallow or connected to them).

don't get me wrong, i like being liked for being me, sure, and i don't hate them for showing it, not at all, but it is what it is: a double-edged sword. leaving me feeling empty if i'm the only one to think/act/talk like me for too long. kind of lonely even in a crowd, you could say.

[FallsPioneer]

I'd venture to guess there's lots of xNTx females we've all met whom we didn't recognize as such, because they were both intelligent enough and socially skilled enough to know that "being themselves" would be more hassle than just flying under the radar for an evening or an event.

I've met my fair share of highly socially inept NTs and I used to be one of them, but the interesting ones I know and knew didn't pass themselves off that way. It shows a willingness to explore other avenues and it also shows willpower to change. And it's not even the social ineptitude that bothers me so much as it is this thing where the really inept ones tend to be selfish and immature. But for the NT girls, it must be like letting out a deep sigh of relief.

[ZiL]

Surface conformism can take you lots of places. After time you learn to read where and with whom you can be yourself.

I'd venture to guess there's lots of xNTx females we've all met whom we didn't recognize as such, because they were both intelligent enough and socially skilled enough to know that "being themselves" would be more hassle than just flying under the radar for an evening or an event.


Yes. I've met a few NT females, and all but one of them have the ability to shift into a more socially acceptable "feminine" mantle.

Learning to alternate between these personas has been an awkward process for me, but it's extremely socially beneficial - though it doesn't always work well in all contexts.

For example, I still have trouble with certain guys (romantic prospects generally). My behavioral cycle: I come off as a little "softer" initially, and so guys get used to that. But as I become more comfortable around them, I start to act myself - a little more argumentative, I joke more...I don't become mean or cold or abrasive, just less traditionally "feminine." When they eventually realize I'm not the second coming of their mother, they get freaked out. Some might say I'm being disingenuous, but honestly, it's an unconscious process that's become natural out of social necessity for me. I act the same around females - a little more timid and girly at first - but as soon as I feel I can work my way into a niche, I act myself. With guys the transition isn't as smooth. One of my male friends, he's an ISFJ, still doesn't believe I really am who I am. He thinks I'm just temporarily deluded from the true path of womanhood, and that I'll get back on track eventually. Doesn't matter how many times I tell him he's an idiot :D.

I do find that "NT" traits in females have a habit of being seen as odd - as an aberration that needs fixing. But if you have confidence and can navigate the social waters, I figure you'll be accepted eventually. But hopefully not as a loveable circus freak.

[Tallulah]

Yes. I've met a few NT females, and all but one of them have the ability to shift into a more socially acceptable "feminine" mantle.

Learning to alternate between these personas has been an awkward process for me, but it's extremely socially beneficial - though it doesn't always work well in all contexts.

For example, I still have trouble with certain guys (romantic prospects generally). My behavioral cycle: I come off as a little "softer" initially, and so guys get used to that. But as I become more comfortable around them, I start to act myself - a little more argumentative, I joke more...I don't become mean or cold or abrasive, just less traditionally "feminine." When they eventually realize I'm not the second coming of their mother, they get freaked out. Some might say I'm being disingenuous, but honestly, it's an unconscious process that's become natural out of social necessity for me. I act the same around females - a little more timid and girly at first - but as soon as I feel I can work my way into a niche, I act myself. With guys the transition isn't as smooth. One of my male friends, he's an ISFJ, still doesn't believe I really am who I am. He thinks I'm just temporarily deluded from the true path of womanhood, and that I'll get back on track eventually. Doesn't matter how many times I tell him he's an idiot :D.

I do find that "NT" traits in females have a habit of being seen as odd - as an aberration that needs fixing. But if you have confidence and can navigate the social waters, I figure you'll be accepted eventually. But hopefully not as a loveable circus freak.

I can relate to this. Also, I'm not impressed by the stuff that guys usually do to impress girls. Like, demonstrating what kind of stuff they can do, or bringing me things that "girls like." I always see myself as an equal, so I tend to meet them on that level, rather than going all gooey about someone's accomplishments. This confuses a lot of guys. I'm always just more impressed by the total package of someone's personality and brain, which just is something I like or isn't. There's not much you can do to impress me. I've noticed that's different from the other women I know.

[dnivera]

My surgeon is one (ENTJ).

So are several of my favorite professors (INTJ), and my financial advisor.

[attilla the honey]

ENTJ "girl" here, actually woman. Married to an ESTJ. President of a Polyurethane and Compression Rubber Plant, one of 2 women who work in the plant.

Never felt a need to be softer, nicer, but having 2 kids made me somewhat kinder and gentler.

Men like me and I like men because I can think like them and talk like them.

[bluebell]

The other thing is that people (in my experience, xSFJ females) can get super clingy when they hear you make a wry comment or very non-standard observation about something... they treat you like a new toy and ask you questions you don't want to answer, or constantly will contrast your opinion with a "normal person's opinion" and will choose contrary to whatever position you hold because they see you as "not normal."

That's just a headache I hate dealing with.

....
Or is this just me? :huh:

I don't experience the super-clingy aspect of this, but the rest I relate to, especially at work. I've recently realised I'm way more comfortable chatting to most of the guys at work - they almost never give me the 'wtf did you just say' look that I tend to get from most of the women I work with when the blending-in-mask slips.

Outside of work, most of my female friends are not particularly feminine and now that I think about it, they nearly all work in areas that are somewhat male-dominated (eg engineering, physics, computing etc). I fit in with them a lot better than with the women I work with.

[Jennifer]

So in effect my participation by relating my experience can very much verify that yes, society is mean to NT females!!

I think in a technical career it's not as bad, people respect raw intelligence and competence. (And I'm also starting to realize that women in my tech field get judged a little harsher, it seems to me that a guy who is marginal in talent is not judged as bad as a woman who is marginal...especially if she's pretty. It's like if you're pretty, it almost goes against you; the way the guys talk about that sort of woman, they think they've only gotten that far because of their looks).

In any case, I know I feel bad because I'm simply not as "coddly" and emotionally fluffy like many of the women I've met in my life, I feel harder and more aloof and not prone to run after people and try to make them feel better IRL... at least not with people I'm in personal relationships with. And I don't always feel comfortable in every woman's circle, if they're just gossiping and crap; some of the stuff that would get talked about just drives me nuts.

I'm glad I know NT women here because I do not feel like I'm an anomaly then.

I can relate to this. Also, I'm not impressed by the stuff that guys usually do to impress girls. Like, demonstrating what kind of stuff they can do, or bringing me things that "girls like." I always see myself as an equal, so I tend to meet them on that level, rather than going all gooey about someone's accomplishments. This confuses a lot of guys. I'm always just more impressed by the total package of someone's personality and brain, which just is something I like or isn't. There's not much you can do to impress me. I've noticed that's different from the other women I know.

I'm impressed by a guy's (1) character, (2) intelligence, (3) humor, and (4) sensitivity to others. And not the social flotsam, as you are saying. I'm looking for specific acts of understanding and sensitivity and how he treats people. The other stuff bores me.

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Then again, look at how much "more common" it is.
Not really that much more at all.

According to the second post ENTP females are about three times more common than either INTJ or ENTJ females.

[edel weiss]

A lot of my friends call me 'tin hearted', with a hard interior that is waiting to be cracked... :D I've had some male acquaintances shake their heads at me and tell me that I need some 'romance' to 'soften me up'.

I've had this experience only for the past 2-3 years, though. Before that, I was vaguely aware that classmates found me strange and relatives thought I was 'different'.


The other thing is that people (in my experience, xSFJ females) can get super clingy when they hear you make a wry comment or very non-standard observation about something... they treat you like a new toy and ask you questions you don't want to answer, or constantly will contrast your opinion with a "normal person's opinion" and will choose contrary to whatever position you hold because they see you as "not normal."


Yes! People are either very wary of me or they're extremely intrigued by me.

Just yesterday, a girl I know started off telling me about how cool she thinks I am, and if I'd been born 100 years ago she'd be reading about me in he history books. :huh: Flattering as it was, it got embarrassing after awhile.

[booyalab]

I have never known any in person.


I knew at least two [female ENTP], in high school. They were both assholes. I wouldn't say bitches, because of the masculine quality to their vileness. They were funny though.

From my experience and from what I've been told, women like me are pretty unique. I think most of the girl friends I had throughout middle school and high school were NTs or at least Ts and our conversations seemed atypical for girls. We never talked about crushes or relationships or fashion. We basically just tried to make each other laugh by mocking things/people and taking the weirdest or most perverted or meanest conversational tangents possible. We knew nothing of each others personal/emotional lives and we didn't care.


Do any of you think society rewards female ESF behavior over that of the INT? I am also wondering how rare they are in reality, I haven't found any stats on the issue.

I think so, but the nice thing about being the 'wrong kind of T' is that I'm still a T, so I'll still care about social pressure less than any feeler, even if they're the 'right kind of feeler'. Yay!

[ajblaise]

We never talked about crushes or relationships or fashion. We basically just tried to make each other laugh by mocking things/people and taking the weirdest or most perverted or meanest conversational tangents possible.

Yeah I knew this type in middle school (bitches), my clique of guys was friends with a small group of these girls. As you outlined, they like talking about much of the same things us guys talked about, cept they had bewbs.

[V Profane]

I knew at least two, in high school. They were both assholes. I wouldn't say bitches, because of the masculine quality to their vileness.

Ooohh, daaymn!

There's nothing so raw as girl on girl criticism. (Skeet, skeet, skeet)

[Cindy]

My best friend is a 'NT' female so I guess I got lucky there.
I am good friends with another but she is too much of a homebody for us to really hit it off. And I can recall several other females that I have met in my past that I'm sure are 'NT' as well (a few of these are the homebody siblings of my friends).

I think society certainly rewards extroversion over intoversion and bubbly females are prefered. People have valued (and rewarded) the thinker in me but my lack of emotion is often brought to my attention. I have to explain that you only get one or the other.

[Kora]

Yeah I knew this type in middle school (bitches), my clique of guys was friends with a small group of these girls. As you outlined, they like talking about much of the same things us guys talked about, cept they had bewbs.

It's funny. Since there are no NT girls in my school, I have to side with the boys. Almost every girl in my school is for sure SF, some NF but I can't recall any T (even if I'm sure there must be some T girls).

It always has been that way... women are sexual symbols or mother-bearers, and sweet and emotional. An F is a must. Even now, in the XXI century, that thought remains. On society eyes, who would be a better mother, an SF or an NT? A better wife/girlfriend? A better daughter?
I read on a magazine that society would still need two centuries for seeing women and men equal. It doesn't surprise me at all.

[Uytuun]

Men like me and I like men because I can think like them and talk like them.

The older I get the more men appreciate my NT-ness. (possibly also because the raw Te is less apparent now than in teenage years when it was really starting to develop)

Although I have a bit of a strong love it or leave it character going on that can result in immediate dislike in certain guys.

[Trinity]

I don't feel condemned but I do feel as though there's an expectation for me to act in a way that contradicts my nature. It's the T that bothers people the most.

[Gen]

See now I feel like its the NP that bothers people more about me.

[Decon]

Reading this, it reminded me what type of girl I would like to be with. I was attracted to one INTP girl. I knew she was one because we would be sarcastic with each other when we did talk, and only talked to a couple of other people. Since then, I've only met NF and SF girls. My last ex was an ISFX, and I'm actually likd of glad it's over. I'd rather be with a female NT then another SF. I'm sure a few of you have heard of Daria, she was Bevis and Butthead's brother. I'd rather go out with someone like her then any other type of person. But that's just me, and maybe I'll meet a few while I attend college, who knows.

[edel weiss]

Yeah, even I think it's the NP that bothers people more than the T. Nobody really appreciates randomness and flights of fancy anymore.

[Trinity]

See now I feel like its the NP that bothers people more about me.

Yeah, even I think it's the NP that bothers people more than the T. Nobody really appreciates randomness and flights of fancy anymore.

More specifically for me is the fact that I have Fi that is unseen by most and crappy Fe, I think that may be the differance here with NTJ/NTP... maybe *shrug*

My work appreciates my N but the T clashes with peoples expectations of females.

[Spartacuss]

People want you to be softer, less opinionated, less sarcastic, more supportive and maternal. They want you to care about concepts less and social activities more. They want you to spend your whole life dreaming of marriage and children, and pity you if you don't.
:yes: But it goes beyond pity. It is as if just being yourself is an affront to them and their values. So you need to be fixed.

the only time i'll consciously morph into who i'm talking to is when i'm in a business situation, or any other similar situation, where it's to my benefit (or a loved one's benefit) to play along and my detriment not to. i just do my best to keep those situations at a minimum for happiness' sake.
Ditto. It's too taxing to do it a whole lot more than that.

We never talked about crushes or relationships or fashion. We basically just tried to make each other laugh by mocking things/people and taking the weirdest or most perverted or meanest conversational tangents possible. We knew nothing of each others personal/emotional lives and we didn't care.
Sounds very familiar.
My work appreciates my N but the T clashes with peoples expectations of females.
I don't know if it's just when coupled with N, but the T over the F is definitely the source of gender-based friction in my experience. I doubt, e.g. that ISTx women have a greater advantage over INTx women than INFx do in the "fulfills gender expectations" race.

[norepinephrine]

I've only met only two other NT females that I could type. Both were coworkers. Both were hard to get to know. In fact, were we not forced to be together day after day I doubt I would have befriended either.

That has given me some insight regarding how I probably come off to others.

But it was a relief to move into a job where I wasn't automatically "the bitch" because that slot was already taken. In contrast, I was all sweetness and light.

And I have trained myself, over the years, to remember and revisit the events occuring in other peoples' lives. As in, "So how was your daughter's first day in middle school."

Regarding being a parent...I spent a large portion of pregnancy digesting volumes of literature telling me how to parent - particularly that involving a single mother raising a male. And eventually said 'screw it, I'm not raising a boy, I'm raising a human.'

He grew into an entp. Quirky, stubborn, often irritating, and endlessly amusing. Worth having a conversation with. And has informed me (often when I was on the verge of leaping off the proverbial cliff) that I am the most independent person that he's ever known.

[563 740]

One of my male friends, he's an ISFJ, still doesn't believe I really am who I am. He thinks I'm just temporarily deluded from the true path of womanhood, and that I'll get back on track eventually. Doesn't matter how many times I tell him he's an idiot :D.

Lemme guess, "You just haven't met the right man yet?"

:rolleyes:

[Tallulah]

I was lucky to have a core group of NT/NF girls as friends in high school. I never have been a "hang with the guys" girl, b/c I don't like to do guy things, and I hate sports, etc. But several of my very closest friends over the years have been guys, individually. But it's true, as an NT woman, I really don't naturally think to ask about others' personal lives, and I always find it invasive when strangers or acquaintances ask about mine. Also, I never know how to answer stuff like that. I don't spend a lot of time in the present moment, so I have to stop and think about what's actually, physically going on in my life to answer their questions.

I know I'm not easy to get to know, and I'm okay with that. I don't have the energy to spend getting to know every person I come in contact with. I figure if we don't hit it off right away, who knows? Maybe months or years later, we might come up with some common ground. Why force it? And it's okay if we don't. Basically, if we don't hit it off right away, how about we just let each other be? I won't try to fix you, and you won't try to fix me. Why can't people be happy with that?

[Orangey]

I've only met only two other NT females that I could type. Both were coworkers. Both were hard to get to know. In fact, were we not forced to be together day after day I doubt I would have befriended either.

That's how it is for me. In fact, when I graduated from high school, I remember many of my "friends" telling me (in the form of yearbook signing) that I was a nice and funny person, and that they wished they had gotten to know me better. And these are people I was constantly around for four (and for some, eight or more) years.

I think people expect you (especially if you're female) to be more personable and self-disclosing, even if it's not in a maternal or bubbly sort of way. If you just really aren't good at dealing with people -

(and by this I mean the following: it doesn't naturally occur to you to ask people if they need help with something, you are unable to console others in their times of emotional need, conversation is awkward unless you're discussing something impersonal, general reticence when it comes to divulging personal information, lack of smiles, unable to rain warm regard on other people, even if you feel it, and so on)

- then it's like you're a worthless person, or that anything else you do well is worth less because of it. It's like "well, Orangey, you are really smart and have great ideas, but you should really work on your people skills." And I think that while everybody who is not naturally social experiences this to a degree, I do think that it's worse for women. A guy can get away with compartmentalizing their talents (i.e., "well, he's kind of an asshole but he's really good at X, Y, Z), but women are judged on a kind of total level, where it's not their skill at any particular thing that's important, but their overall worthiness as a person (which their particular skill may adorn, but could never determine).

This is just my perception BTW, so none of it may actually be true :).

[Uytuun]

Today - when I was in the shower (personal detail!) - I realised how effing impossible I must be to many people due to my very independent nature. It simply doesn't occur to me to ask for help or communicate any issues I might have or communicate about other people's personal details. :peepwall:

[ThatGirl]

NT women dont exist. We are a sub species for sure.

[Turkish_Cats]

How hard society is on an NT female depends entirely on who she associates with.

I have a feeling that it'd be hardest on INTP females. INTJs... not so much.

INTJs are crackpots,all facts which don't fit their theories are just wrong. The more all-encompassing and less applicable to reality the theories, the better.Especially INTJ females,only a few people could bear them.

I haven't meet any INTJ females as far.

[Trinity]

Um what :huh:

"INTJs are crackpots... Especially INTJ females"
"I haven't meet any INTJ females"

Kay.

[bluebell]

INTJs are crackpots,all facts which don't fit their theories are just wrong. The more all-encompassing and less applicable to reality the theories, the better.Especially INTJ females,only a few people could bear them.

I haven't meet any INTJ females as far.

:shock:

So, uh, why did you write this exactly?

[Uytuun]

INTJs are crackpots,all facts which don't fit their theories are just wrong. The more all-encompassing and less applicable to reality the theories, the better.Especially INTJ females,only a few people could bear them.

I haven't meet any INTJ females as far.

Oh I see what you're doing there, clever mise en abîme of your INTJ (female) theory!

Or maybe you're being cynical.

Must know...which fact to ignore.

[01011010]

I am primarily in science. This seems to attract more NT XXs than other fields. Cliche, but for a reason. There are quite a few that gravitate towards the subject matter. This is the only area I've met other NTs.

People can find it strange for women to not conform to the standards that this gender is conditioned to. It doesn't matter as long as an NT XX knows how to fake social grace when necessary in order to achieve their goals. There is no reason to feel demonized for not being typical.

[Lauren Ashley]

A lot of my girl friends at school are NTs. Then again, I am a science major and thus spend a lot of time with other science majors, so that may skew things.

[nonsequitur]

I'm INTJ, and I find that I have close to nothing to talk to other people (in society) about. No one's interested in my interests, and they're mostly horrified that I don't dress up, don't care for personal contact and am obsessed by various academic topics. I don't go out of my way to offend other people, so I'm more or less accepted by the general population (if they actually see me up and about). Exception being my family, which still can't figure out how I ended up so... "independent" and "stubborn". I guess as Booya said, the advantage to being an NT female is that we are Ts, and don't really care about what others think of us. Work is a completely different story.

About 40% of the females at my workplace are NTs. That's probably because it's a university biochemistry department. At first I thought that (based on Aussie stereotypes) it would be a really relaxed and slack working environment. But I was proven wrong, probably because there are a TONNE of NTs in the department. It seems like 95% of the conversation is actually about work and sharing ideas. NTs, male or female, are very accepted. Independence of thought and action is also encouraged. I feel like I'm a genuinely respected part of the group, which is a feeling that I've never had outside the lab before.

There is another female NTJ in my lab, and I completely admire her for her competence. We crack silly jokes with an INTJ postdoc (male) and get along really well - and we all respect each other and don't take criticism personally. There are 2 INT females in the lab next door, one is pretty competitive and uptight. The other is probably closest to me in personality and interests than anyone else at work. We like the same music, the same movies, the same sports... We'd practically be the same person in another universe. The amusing irony is that if either of us weren't INT, we'd probably have a much closer friendship.

The NTs, male and female, usually get along really well in that environment. So yeah. Just jump into a biological sciences department in any university and you'll land on a tonne of NT females, most of whom feel accepted.

[animenagai]

sciences eh? maybe i shoulda kept my maths major. fuck. maybe i'll just jump on that philosophy of science course next semester :D.

[Usehername]

sciences eh? maybe i shoulda kept my maths major. fuck. maybe i'll just jump on that philosophy of science course next semester :D.

That's an Arts student science class to meet their science requirement. (Or, at least at my school.)

[IlyaK1986]

I know a very VERY smart INTJ (or that's what I'd describe her as...maybe INTP). My favorite professor I'd also describe as an xNTJ.

The most amazing woman I've ever known (from high school) as far as I can tell is an ENTJ if there ever was one.

[runvardh]

Rare enough to make them hard to find, persecuted enough to make then even harder to find. Thankfully the somewhat congregate.

[Airporte]

The only 'NT' girl I think I've seen and can recall (she sits right across from me in class) seems fairly consistent with the norm of a socially integrated individual.

You can tell there's something more, though, beneath the surface, especially when she starts to speak when the more abstract questions are asked in English or History. I remember when we were presenting our summer assignments, one kid did his on Arestotelianism in relation to a book, and it's overall concept. When it came to one of Aristotle's ideas on something about God or life or whatever (I can't remember, exactly), she pipes up with this question in relation to the subject, which demanded more than a one or two sentence answer, and it was well worded and quite inquisitive of her to ask. Whether or not she was just doing it for theatrics or out of honest, intellectual curiosity, it kind of came out of the blue. You don't hear stuff like that very often, especially when it's not commanded or required by an instructor. Everyone in my classes either follows an inquiry or idea the teacher asks and tries to grasp and question it (though not to as great an extent), or just tries to scrape up facts to prove it, since the concept kind of goes over their head, despite their higher grades. (The latter tend to be the more studious, though intelligent, concrete thinkers.) She's also a cheerleader, member of the student council (I think), and some other things that aren't typically applied to the 'NT' stereotype.

So, yeah, I think a lot of the time the NT girls floating around tend to bend with the standards of society, if only to project a more welcoming persona, and to appear less cold or uninviting to the majority of other people, who don't exactly work the same way, mentally.

Then again, there are those girls--probably because they're younger-- who broadcast the fact that they're so different and society is corrupted and that they're cool and wierd and, essentially, smarter than everyone else. Some of it might be true, but the mostly negative feedback towards their behavior either fuels or subdues them.

[bluemonday]

Most girls I seem to meet are SF's, as well as E's. The party scene is literally littered with them. Not that there aren't a lot of cool ESF's, but I sure wouldn't mind more INT's or NT's in general running around.

Do any of you think society rewards female ESF behavior over that of the INT? I am also wondering how rare they are in reality, I haven't found any stats on the issue.

If you're looking for INTs in the "party scene", you're looking in the wrong place.

Of course society rewards ESF behaviour in females. Society is largely comprised of ESF females - how could it be otherwise? Why would any society reward individuals who have so little regard for it?

I confess, women are something of a mystery to me. I don't enjoy their company or their conversation (although I don't know any female NTs). We have nothing in common, and I am conscious of their judgment which I find intolerable. When I was younger I was certain I should have been a boy, and all of my close friends are male, but usually men find me intimidating or weird or don't find me at all. And I'm too self-sufficient to be bothered.

If so-called feminine attributes (nurturing, creating harmonious relationships/environments, domesticity etc) predominate in females because they are biologically adaptive, it follows that it is not (or has not been) biologically adaptive to be an NT female, for whom such behaviors are alien. Clearly, it is also not socially adaptive, and therefore we would not expect to see many NT females "running around".

We are an aberration...but we wouldn't have it any other way...

[Usehername]

If you're looking for INTs in the "party scene", you're looking in the wrong place.

Of course society rewards ESF behaviour in females. Society is largely comprised of ESF females - how could it be otherwise? Why would any society reward individuals who have so little regard for it?

I confess, women are something of a mystery to me. I don't enjoy their company or their conversation (although I don't know any female NTs). We have nothing in common, and I am conscious of their judgment which I find intolerable. When I was younger I was certain I should have been a boy, and all of my close friends are male, but usually men find me intimidating or weird or don't find me at all. And I'm too self-sufficient to be bothered.

If so-called feminine attributes (nurturing, creating harmonious relationships/environments, domesticity etc) predominate in females because they are biologically adaptive, it follows that it is not (or has not been) biologically adaptive to be an NT female, for whom such behaviors are alien. Clearly, it is also not socially adaptive, and therefore we would not expect to see many NT females "running around".

We are an aberration...but we wouldn't have it any other way...

I disagree with this; IMO, xNTxs just do this with... a unique flavour and zeal and point of view?

I wouldn't be surprised if xNTx females were a little less likely to procreate/want to be nurturing, but in my experience and watching, for example, my INTJ Biochemistry prof who is a mom of 4... it's just different. Something a lot of males aren't interested in, no doubt.

[ZiL]

Lemme guess, "You just haven't met the right man yet?"

:rolleyes:


Yeah, pretty much. I'm like, "who's that 'right man' then? You? Forget it, give me the pills."

On a related note, last weekend this guy started hanging around me at the sheesha bar when I was out with my friends and asked me for my number. He was, as I just described in another thread, another member of the "socially anxious but self-righteous and a know-it-all" clan that is all too familiar to me (clan...who am I, you're female cross-cousin? ::tsching:: -bad anthropology joke). I knew early on I knew I wasn't interested (he reminded me strongly of other types I've known who, if you show them any friendliness, get super clingy), but since he was sitting there and I didn't want to ignore him, I talked to him for a while. After we leave, my friends ask me what I thought, and when I told them my opinion, they started telling me that I was probably being too judgemental and that I should get to know him better. It felt like, "ZiL, you got a guy to come right up to you and you're not going to marry him?!!" (exaggeration, obviously).

But anyway, I've noticed that whenever I show decisiveness about my intention to not date a guy who has given me attention, I always get chided for being too cold. I haven't seen a lot of guys get that sort of response for being decisive about a girl.

[Orangey]

Yeah, pretty much. I'm like, "who's that 'right man' then? You? Forget it, give me the pills."

On a related note, last weekend this guy started hanging around me at the sheesha bar when I was out with my friends and asked me for my number. He was, as I just described in another thread, another member of the "socially anxious but self-righteous and a know-it-all" clan that is all too familiar to me (clan...who am I, you're female cross-cousin? ::tsching:: -bad anthropology joke). I knew early on I knew I wasn't interested (he reminded me strongly of other types I've known who, if you show them any friendliness, get super clingy), but since he was sitting there and I didn't want to ignore him, I talked to him for a while. After we leave, my friends ask me what I thought, and when I told them my opinion, they started telling me that I was probably being too judgemental and that I should get to know him better. It felt like, "ZiL, you got a guy to come right up to you and you're not going to marry him?!!" (exaggeration, obviously).

But anyway, I've noticed that whenever I show decisiveness about my intention to not date a guy who has given me attention, I always get chided for being too cold. I haven't seen a lot of guys get that sort of response for being decisive about a girl.

Ha! Yeah, I remember this incident a couple of years ago where I was asked out by someone who I just really didn't find attractive...nor did I know him. I was working and he came up to me and asked for my number, if I'd like to do anything and blah blah blah, and I rejected him flatly (not in a mean way, but with the stern voice of resolution). After he left, my co-worker came up to me and asked "what's wrong with you? You know that getting asked out is a good thing, right?" It's as though I should have thanked my lucky stars that some guy was paying attention to me.

[Evan]

Most girls I seem to meet are SF's, as well as E's. The party scene is literally littered with them. Not that there aren't a lot of cool ESF's, but I sure wouldn't mind more INT's or NT's in general running around.

Do any of you think society rewards female ESF behavior over that of the INT? I am also wondering how rare they are in reality, I haven't found any stats on the issue.

I don't know any stats, but I've barely met any NT girls. (And I have crushes on most of them, lol.)

My ex is ENTP, my roomate is ENTP, and one of my best friends, who was my friend's girlfriend for a while, is INTJ. (I shadily hooked up with her a few weeks ago :()

Haven't met any INTP girls since high school, and I don't know if I've ever met an ENTJ girl.

[Haphazard]

Well, under every NT, there's an SF shadow...

[Fiver]

Well, I am an NT female and it's no news to me that there are very few of us or that we are definitely oddities by society's standards.

I can say that as a young girl I was a straight up, unself-conscious NT. As a teen and young woman, I definitely maintained two personalities. I hung around with the intellectuals who liked to think, but I also wanted to be part of the football games and social groups. In college, I always got the feedback that I was just too intense. Although, one of my sorority (yes sorority!) sisters said to me, "If other people got to know you, I think they'd like you."

Now I have many women friends, but I enjoy conversations with men much more. They are just more likely to engage in a conversation about something other than children and families. I have always felt that my personality was half feminine and half masculine.

I have always struggled with being too direct and too deep -- two things that put off most people. Accordingly, I have learned to consider almost every word I say. I value my independence and freedom to be myself, but not if it hurts other people (even if they are being overly sensitive for god's sake!).

I love being an NT mom. I am not hovering or overly nuturing, it's true, and I am more likely to tell my kids they can make that sandwich themselves! They are both competent and have had to learn to be independent.

Since I enjoy being a leader and being around other people, I have developed strategies that allow me to be more successful. I always try to make sure that when I am leading, I have more empathic people there who can give me input on the touchy feely side of the meeting. I have come to value their skills.

So I would say, yes, NT females are rare. Yes, we sometimes go in camouflage. No, we can't totally hide NTness. Yes, we are considered odd and different. Yes, at least I feel I have a lot of masculine qualities. Yes, we're pretty interesting.

[Bougal]

I grew up in a home with a disgruntled and fairly overbearing ESFJ mother. From a very young age, my brash style of communication made her explode emotionally, so I learned to avoid these out lashes by acting more passive, and superficially caring about other’s emotions, even though I have never seen them as being very valid. Because of this change, my true personality was fairly suppressed for a good portion of my childhood. I developed a façade of being a social ENFJ to soften my outspoken, opinionated tendencies. A couple of years ago I became a trial attorney for Mock Trial, and my true personality resurfaced, but I am in awkward state of being a natural ENTJ that has be nurtured to be a feeler.

I think that society’s expectations and stereotypes of femininity make life hard for most NT women, but even more so for an ENTJ women . When a man is an ENTJ, he is respected as a strong leader; when a woman is an ENTJ she is seen as being a domineering bitch. I must say, this stereo typing has always really bothered me. Has anyone had a hard time coping with it in their activities?

[Fiver]

Yes, Bougal, I have.

[Uytuun]

This week was rather heavy on the socialisation in the uni milieu and I have to say I thought it was hilarious the way women are reduced to their femininity there...and clearly E behaviour (and trying to get and maintain the attention of a male) was what was expected.

The contrast with my courses (I think mostly INs - mainly reduction to brain there :p ) was huge!

[Lithium]

Society is dumb as s**t, and generally misinformed. Prone to mas hysteria and sheep like mentality. Often with views founded on rumor and hearsay, somewhat akin to the blind following the blind. It's not really a good idea to use society as a measuring stick.

[runvardh]

Society is dumb as s**t, and generally misinformed. Prone to mas hysteria and sheep like mentality. Often with views founded on rumor and hearsay, somewhat akin to the blind following the blind. It's not really a good idea to use society as a measuring stick.

Nope, too bad so many people or at least a very (extremely) vocal minority are that society.


Edit: by the way, I wouldn't mind an ENTJ woman if she has the right value set and will hold me every so often; but that goes for any woman, really

[PurpleCloud]

The other thing is that people (in my experience, xSFJ females) can get super clingy when they hear you make a wry comment or very non-standard observation about something... they treat you like a new toy and ask you questions you don't want to answer, or constantly will contrast your opinion with a "normal person's opinion" and will choose contrary to whatever position you hold because they see you as "not normal."

That's just a headache I hate dealing with.

....
Or is this just me? :huh:

Hehe, it's not just you. I, according to most people I meet, haven't a single "normal opinion" in my brain. Objectivity (subjective objectivity:newwink:) in a female is not viewed as the norm, which is why NT females sometimes have a "tough time".

[Babylon Candle]

NT

INTJ – Female: 0.8% ; Male: 3.3%

INTP – Female: 1.8% ; Male: 4.8%

ENTP – Female: 2.4% ; Male: 4.0%

ENTJ – Female: 0.9% ; Male: 2.7%

Source: Myers Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) Personality Traits (http://www.timeenoughforlove.org/MBTI.htm)


Never trust one source though however (this one happens to be old, from 1998), different sites tend to vary in their statistics. However, there is a general trend in most of them that there are significantly less NT females than NT males. It has to do with the differences in male and female brain structures/wirings.


**EDIT**: Jackpot:

Estimated Frequencies of Types - CAPT.org (http://www.capt.org/mbti-assessment/estimated-frequencies.htm)

so basically in a room of 20 chicks (a descent size 40 person class) theres good odds that not more than one are NT.
NTs females might run the risk of being thrown out with the bathwater if a guy quickly sizes up that no one in his class stands out as a possible NT.

[Trinity]

Prolly depends on the environment but yup :yes:

[animenagai]

I grew up in a home with a disgruntled and fairly overbearing ESFJ mother. From a very young age, my brash style of communication made her explode emotionally, so I learned to avoid these out lashes by acting more passive, and superficially caring about other’s emotions, even though I have never seen them as being very valid. Because of this change, my true personality was fairly suppressed for a good portion of my childhood. I developed a façade of being a social ENFJ to soften my outspoken, opinionated tendencies. A couple of years ago I became a trial attorney for Mock Trial, and my true personality resurfaced, but I am in awkward state of being a natural ENTJ that has be nurtured to be a feeler.

I think that society’s expectations and stereotypes of femininity make life hard for most NT women, but even more so for an ENTJ women . When a man is an ENTJ, he is respected as a strong leader; when a woman is an ENTJ she is seen as being a domineering bitch. I must say, this stereo typing has always really bothered me. Has anyone had a hard time coping with it in their activities?

that is one heck of a story. no doubt society tells the sexes to act in a particular way. ENFP male here, we get the other end of the spectrum. as a child, i wanted to do the artsy stuff, participate in interesting intellectual pursuits (philosophy, even if i didn't know the term for it back then). however, we live in a world where you're not a boy if you don't play sports. it didn't completely change me into a jock or anything, but i did hold back. was quite shy for a big part of my life. it's particularly hard when you're EN too because your natural tendency is to be true to yourself and scream it to the world.

Society is dumb as s**t, and generally misinformed. Prone to mas hysteria and sheep like mentality. Often with views founded on rumor and hearsay, somewhat akin to the blind following the blind. It's not really a good idea to use society as a measuring stick.

i call INTP.