Paying kids to get good grades

[Royal Xavier]

Recently an online friend of mine, whom I know fairly well, said that for a few years when she was in school her parents payed her every time she got an A. She payed them the same amount for every B she got. Normally I don't get worked up about money-related issues, but for some reason this didn't sit well with me...maybe it's because my family isn't exactly rich and I've never gotten payed despite the fact that I make mostly A's and a few B's. That was my first reaction, anyway.

But the more I think about it, the more glad I am that they don't pay me...something seems wrong about bribing your kids to get them ahead. If they're as smart as you want them to be, then shouldn't they be able to do this on their own, without getting money involved? On the other hand, if it was actually her idea and she asked them to pay her for making good grades, doesn't that still sort of make it all a lie?

I guess the reason I'm so confused about it is that she's a fairly intelligent and principled person whom I wouldn't expect to get involved with it if it were bad...so am I wrong?

[Evan]

Yeah this is the reason all the kids from my high school have such fucked up priorities now. I grew up in this stupid rich town, a donut hole in Oakland. Many parents were like this. My parents were kinda like this, except that they punished me insanely much if I didn't get all As. I only got all As one semester since 6th grade, so it made for a pretty ridiculous relationship.

To put that much weight on some letters is pretty much guaranteed to fuck up a child. Then imagine an entire grade of children with this internalized, enforcing their parents' weird ass priorities on their peers because they don't know better.

[Sunshine]

I think it depends. I got payed all through out school for the As and Bs I got and it didn't do anything bad to me. When I went into college I didn't suddenly start getting Ds and Fs because I wasn't getting paid anymore. I still get As and Bs.

Pressure sucks. Like it sucks when parents pressure their kids to get good grades instead of encouraging them to get good grades.

[FDG]

I've never got payed for anything grades-related up to the college level. Thakfully now there exist scolarships. However from time to time, say, if I had gotten many As on a row in a particularly difficult part of the program, or if I had been praised particularly strongly by the teachers, they'd give buy me a toy.

[Metamorphosis]

Recently an online friend of mine, whom I know fairly well, said that for a few years when she was in school her parents payed her every time she got an A. She payed them the same amount for every B she got. Normally I don't get worked up about money-related issues, but for some reason this didn't sit well with me...maybe it's because my family isn't exactly rich and I've never gotten payed despite the fact that I make mostly A's and a few B's. That was my first reaction, anyway.

But the more I think about it, the more glad I am that they don't pay me...something seems wrong about bribing your kids to get them ahead. If they're as smart as you want them to be, then shouldn't they be able to do this on their own, without getting money involved? On the other hand, if it was actually her idea and she asked them to pay her for making good grades, doesn't that still sort of make it all a lie?

I guess the reason I'm so confused about it is that she's a fairly intelligent and principled person whom I wouldn't expect to get involved with it if it were bad...so am I wrong?

Isn't the whole idea of doing well in school essentially so you can save money in college via scholarships and then make more money professionaly?

It's like saying "if people are as hard working as you want them to be, you shouldn't have to pay them OT."

[Usehername]

I think it's about kids learning about intrinsic rewards. Lessons you learn in grade school are often symbolic more than practical. Kids tend to not be able to see the nuances in life until they're older, and I think that's a simple combination of (lack of) life experience mixed with physiological brain development in neuronal connections.


We used to get a book of our choice at the end of the school year when we had decent grades. I liked my parents' policy on that one.

[kyuuei]

I think it depends. I got payed all through out school for the As and Bs I got and it didn't do anything bad to me. When I went into college I didn't suddenly start getting Ds and Fs because I wasn't getting paid anymore. I still get As and Bs.

Pressure sucks. Like it sucks when parents pressure their kids to get good grades instead of encouraging them to get good grades.

I never got paid for grades, I was definitely pressured due to poor finances in our family back then, but I was always fearful of bad grades instead of trying to learn from them and move on. It sort of undermined my confidence a bit. I felt like a mistake was fatal almost, like I would surely choke upon entering my home instead of simply thinking "That sucks! Now I don't get that comic book I wanted!" or something.

The thing is, "bribing" albeit an accurate word may be necessary. Children need motivation, and I sure as shit did NOT value my education the way I do now back then. I did it out of fear, not because I had any positive value for school. I think that would have made my school career a lot easier.

Isn't the whole idea of doing well in school essentially so you can save money in college via scholarships and then make more money professionaly?

It's like saying "if people are as hard working as you want them to be, you shouldn't have to pay them OT."

Right. School is your career, and incentives must be there for anyone to succeed at anything, if you have no goal to work toward you won't want to work at all. The diploma is not always the thing most valued, even though they might value it and appreciate the effort put into it later on, it wasn't the focal point for me in school.

[GZA]

Yeah this is the reason all the kids from my high school have such fucked up priorities now. I grew up in this stupid rich town, a donut hole in Oakland. Many parents were like this. My parents were kinda like this, except that they punished me insanely much if I didn't get all As. I only got all As one semester since 6th grade, so it made for a pretty ridiculous relationship.

To put that much weight on some letters is pretty much guaranteed to fuck up a child. Then imagine an entire grade of children with this internalized, enforcing their parents' weird ass priorities on their peers because they don't know better.

I sort of live in a place like that. I don't think most kids get paid to get good grades, but the expectations are so high and consistent that I think it does fuck soem kids up. It fucked me up in like eighth grade when I was almost failing and I was being given hell for it, only to realize now that it doesn't even matter what your grades are untill grade 12. It's like... everyone's parents are doctors or lawyers or engineers or whatever so you better be really damn good at school or else.

It at least may explain why we have the worst drug problem of any high school in the city (i.e. rich kids+stress=cocaine)

Paying kids would make it worse.

[Evan]

I sort of live in a place like that. I don't think most kids get paid to get good grades, but the expectations are so high and consistent that I think it does fuck soem kids up. It fucked me up in like eighth grade when I was almost failing and I was being given hell for it, only to realize now that it doesn't even matter what your grades are untill grade 12. It's like... everyone's parents are doctors or lawyers or engineers or whatever so you better be really damn good at school or else.

It at least may explain why we have the worst drug problem of any high school in the city (i.e. rich kids+stress=cocaine)

Paying kids would make it worse.

Heh, sounds exactly the same. And although I understood it intellectually in high school, it really took me a few years after I graduated to really see how ridiculous it all was. People are still so fucked up now, and most of them just finished college -- of course, they just blew threw it with majors they thought they were supposed to do... So much pressure.

[edcoaching]

Who else has kids on the forum? My son (INFP) did great in grades K-6 when the teachers knew him, challenged him, and let him follow his own lead (like doing his animal report Jeopardy-style with the details under flaps...). Then 7th grade came around with two astoundingly boring teachers. And he would not do the work because he knew he wouldn't learn anything. He was right--the assignments were dumb. He also needed to learn how to play the game, school-style. And we had to live with him and make sure he didn't go off the deep end in depression. Paying for grades (and we didn't pay a whole lot, but they don't get an allowance, either) kept his grades above C's for the most part, until 11th grade when he came to terms with it all. Now he's at his first pick college and doing fine.

Most (not all) IJs seem wired for school--I'd have sold my soul for an A. Most IPs chafe against any schoolwork that goes against their values or principles (unless their top value is good grades). EPs may or may not be motivated--and can easily end up labeled as stars, ringleaders or ADHD. EJs...they vary more...but usually they find something to be in charge of at school...If your child is of a certain type, you may find paying for grades is quite necessary...you can't get inside their heads and motivate them...

[Evan]

Most (not all) IJs seem wired for school--I'd have sold my soul for an A. Most IPs chafe against any schoolwork that goes against their values or principles (unless their top value is good grades). EPs may or may not be motivated--and can easily end up labeled as stars, ringleaders or ADHD.

Hm. Myself and a few of my IJ friends (INJ) are pretty damn unmotivated when it comes to school. I perform much more like you describe IPs or even EPs (I have ADHD too). It's not that I couldn't have gotten all As, it's just that I don't really care, and I'd rather focus my energy on other things.

My other male INFJ friend probably cares/cared less than I, and two of the INTJs I know don't/didn't care at all either.

I don't think it makes sense to make generalizations about school. I think it has much more to do with nurture than type (not that type doesn't have to do with nurture either).

[GZA]

Heh, sounds exactly the same. And although I understood it intellectually in high school, it really took me a few years after I graduated to really see how ridiculous it all was. People are still so fucked up now, and most of them just finished college -- of course, they just blew threw it with majors they thought they were supposed to do... So much pressure. Yah, and it's not that Law School or Medical School is bad or anything, it's that something like a skilled trade is almost looked down on, even though it is just as respectable a career and makes a lot of money depending on what you do. It's actually come to the point here where the stigma against trades jobs has created a huge demand for work with few people willing to train for it. Maybe it's a "class stracture" thing, I don't know.

But yah, it's really sad, I've watched kids I've known my whole life and grown up with get really screwed up from drugs and stuff and I'm guessing a lot of it is from the pressure and expectations (I know the families very well so I know they weren't abused or anything, and there's usually one kid who is a perfect student, too). You can't really help but look at them and think that it just as easily could have been you.

[animenagai]

i think the word 'bribing' is unnecessarily negative. i love my degree now but as a child, it was honestly something that i felt like i just had to do because of my parents. i didn't love it. i appreciated intelligence but that doesn't mean i'll put in the extra yards to get a top grade. there are 2 sides to this 'bribery'. if used correctly (not overly extravagant with rewards etc.) it can build tools that the child can use all their life, even when the reward is not that obvious or immediate. the negative side is that some kids will not try hard without a defined profit. a lot of society leans towards the latter anyways, in fact, you can label it as a S vs N thing. honestly, it's not as bad as some of you make it look.

[miked277]

i don't see anything wrong with money for grades. paren't ultimately give their kids money for a variety of items be it in the form of allowance, food or what have you. why not have it be a form of positive reinforcement? and as well, the ultimate message in the end for young adults is that working hard will get you money. why not have the money incentive there for things like school and grades which can have a much more profound impact on a kids life than say, bagging groceries at the local grocery store.

[Mort Belfry]

Recently an online friend of mine, whom I know fairly well, said that for a few years when she was in school her parents payed her every time she got an A. She payed them the same amount for every B she got.
...
I guess the reason I'm so confused about it is that she's a fairly intelligent and principled person whom I wouldn't expect to get involved with it if it were bad...so am I wrong?

Yep. You're wrong. It's spelt PAID not PAYED.

[edcoaching]

I don't think it makes sense to make generalizations about school. I think it has much more to do with nurture than type (not that type doesn't have to do with nurture either).

Except I wasn't generalizing. The stuff came from research. However...INTJs and INFJs will shut down at any school that emphasizes rote learning over anaysis/synthesis/construction of knowledge and doesn't allow for independent pursuit of topics of interest. Unfortunately, most AP courses emphasize rote learning (there are fantastic exceptions but usually it's cram for the test). Here's what a whole ton of studies show:

INTJs and INFJs have the highest GPAs on average, with ISTJs close behind.
INFPs and INTPs have higher IQs (not that this measures intelligence but it does correlate with the junk that schools usually honor as thinking skills)
SP's make up about 90% of students in alternative schools. Note that not that high a % of the population ends up in alternative high schools but it shows how little the needs of these students are met...
Although 75% of the population prefers Sensing, 82% of the Merit Scholarships, based on the PSAT, go to Intuitives. This is after leveling the playing field for who's taken the most AP classes. On the SAT, there's a 250 point average difference between the highest-scoring type and lowest-scoring. The test is extremely biased in favor of the Intuitive style fo guessing. It was written by Intuitives...
EPs are most likely to be misdiagnosed as ADHD;IPs as ADD. All types can have these conditions but the misdiagnosis usually falls in these categories.


What I'm seeing is more and more rote learning in the wake of No Child Left Behind, demotivating rather than improving the performance of bright children of every type...

[Jack Flak]

INFPs and INTPs have higher IQs (not that this measures intelligence but it does correlate with the junk that schools usually honor as thinking skills)
LOL (really). Not that I necessarily disagree.

[Royal Xavier]

Yep. You're wrong. It's spelt PAID not PAYED.

Thanks Mort, that's all I needed to know :P

Seriously though, I'm seeing a lot of posts about pressure and how it messes up kids. So maybe it has to do with the situation. Perhaps if kids are already smart enough to get good grades but just need some extra encouragement, a little payment wouldn't be so bad(though a tutor would probably be better). But if the kid is obviously headed nowhere academically, what use is it to pressure them, particularly if it makes the situation worse like dissonance and GZA pointed out?

[substitute]

well what gets me is that the kid's being paid to do something from which only they themselves benefit anyway. If a kid is smart and is made to realize that this is THEIR future they're investing in... that ought to be all the payment they need. Paying them in the short term is kinda like going against the idea of deferred gratification, somewhat...

then again, the school system was started partly to ensure that child labour, such as existed in the Victorian period, was stamped out. the kids got paid for sweeping chimneys or cleaning floors or scooping up horse shit, even if it was only a pittance... if society benefits in the end as well as the kid themselves, from the kid applying themselves at school, maybe it's not so wrong that they should expect a little compensation... after all, when the kid grows up they might be just as happy in a moderately paid job, paying far less in taxes, that they can get by just graduating high school... if they're to put in all the extra effort it takes to reach the higher wage brackets, maybe they should get something back for it since they continue giving even after they've left college...

[Gen]

We spoon feed babies until they learn how to feed themselves. We keep them away from dangerous objects until they learn that these object might cause them harm. We do the best we can to keep them safe, instill the values and teach the lessons that we think they will need for a happy successful adult life.

One of the most often heard statements of my life from those in midlife: kids just don't understand how important education really is.

Whatever you can do to instill the importance of learning, or at least get them to a place where they have enough options, when they reach 18 and don't have to follow your rules any more, is what you should do. As they say, they'll thank you for it later.

[Mondo]

I personally support the idea that parents should show their children that they appreciate academic success- especially at a young age. It becomes something that the child remembers as he or she grows older. Moderation is the key. One shouldn't spoil the child too much or you will become like one of those 'rich bitches' or 'rich man-bitches' that attend my university.

Except I wasn't generalizing. The stuff came from research. However...INTJs and INFJs will shut down at any school that emphasizes rote learning over anaysis/synthesis/construction of knowledge and doesn't allow for independent pursuit of topics of interest. Unfortunately, most AP courses emphasize rote learning (there are fantastic exceptions but usually it's cram for the test). Here's what a whole ton of studies show:

INTJs and INFJs have the highest GPAs on average, with ISTJs close behind.
INFPs and INTPs have higher IQs (not that this measures intelligence but it does correlate with the junk that schools usually honor as thinking skills)
SP's make up about 90% of students in alternative schools. Note that not that high a % of the population ends up in alternative high schools but it shows how little the needs of these students are met...
Although 75% of the population prefers Sensing, 82% of the Merit Scholarships, based on the PSAT, go to Intuitives. This is after leveling the playing field for who's taken the most AP classes. On the SAT, there's a 250 point average difference between the highest-scoring type and lowest-scoring. The test is extremely biased in favor of the Intuitive style fo guessing. It was written by Intuitives...
EPs are most likely to be misdiagnosed as ADHD;IPs as ADD. All types can have these conditions but the misdiagnosis usually falls in these categories.


What I'm seeing is more and more rote learning in the wake of No Child Left Behind, demotivating rather than improving the performance of bright children of every type...

All I have is anecdotal evidence but there are some things I will disagree with here. I know a lot of SJ's and SP's who did really well on the SAT. They were either
a.) bright- and yes there are lot of bright Sensors as there are a lot of not-so-bright iNtuitives.
b.) spent THOUSANDS of dollars on SAT prep!!!! :shock:

A lot of people say that the SAT is a "follow your gut" test but I don't think I had to do that at all. If anything I'd say that my Ti (strong analytical skills) helped me a lot more than my Ne.

I'm happy I got my sky-high SAT score for near free (well, I paid money to take the test and I did take the PSAT.. twice.) ;)

[Firelie]

My parents gave my brother and I $10 for every A and $5 for every B, but we never did it for the money; it was just a nice bonus after getting straight A's.

[Usehername]

Except I wasn't generalizing. The stuff came from research. However...INTJs and INFJs will shut down at any school that emphasizes rote learning over anaysis/synthesis/construction of knowledge and doesn't allow for independent pursuit of topics of interest. Unfortunately, most AP courses emphasize rote learning (there are fantastic exceptions but usually it's cram for the test). Here's what a whole ton of studies show:

INTJs and INFJs have the highest GPAs on average, with ISTJs close behind.
INFPs and INTPs have higher IQs (not that this measures intelligence but it does correlate with the junk that schools usually honor as thinking skills)
SP's make up about 90% of students in alternative schools. Note that not that high a % of the population ends up in alternative high schools but it shows how little the needs of these students are met...
Although 75% of the population prefers Sensing, 82% of the Merit Scholarships, based on the PSAT, go to Intuitives. This is after leveling the playing field for who's taken the most AP classes. On the SAT, there's a 250 point average difference between the highest-scoring type and lowest-scoring. The test is extremely biased in favor of the Intuitive style fo guessing. It was written by Intuitives...
EPs are most likely to be misdiagnosed as ADHD;IPs as ADD. All types can have these conditions but the misdiagnosis usually falls in these categories.


What I'm seeing is more and more rote learning in the wake of No Child Left Behind, demotivating rather than improving the performance of bright children of every type...

This analysis is very Americanized, though. It doesn't even translate to Canada.

Our trade schools are called "College" (as opposed to University, which is not the same thing) and though they're not as theoretical, you come out of there with a solid job (it's lined up for you) and solid professional wages, usually enough to raise a family on.

Being that our systems are different, though I'd suspect more xSxPs go the College route in our country, I'd also suspect it's far more diversified than what Americans would experience in their differently set up schools.

We still have our British influence--University has always been more "edification for the purpose of enlightenment" rather than pragmatic--this whole "University for career preparation" stuff only began occurring in Canada after the Free Trade Agreement in 1989. As such, our University attendance is a fraction of yours, and far more people of all types choose the pragmatic College route.

[Mondo]

edcoaching,

Not that I don't trust the results but I am curious to where you got the studies from. I notice that you had a couple other posts with results from research and I'm curious to see if there are any true relationships between type preferences and abilities/beliefs.

[substitute]

there's always the issue of what happens when you go through a bad patch and don't manage to get any A's? does your social life take a dive because the money you've been able to rely on getting stops? do you punish yourself and feel like a failure and a loser? do you worry that your parents don't love you/aren't proud of you unless you're a straight A student?

Actually my parents did the opposite of encouraging me, but I got straight A's all through school... I sorta did it despite them, not because of. I looked at the way they were and said "I don't want to be like that", and that motivated me plenty.

[Evan]

Except I wasn't generalizing. The stuff came from research. However...INTJs and INFJs will shut down at any school that emphasizes rote learning over anaysis/synthesis/construction of knowledge and doesn't allow for independent pursuit of topics of interest. Unfortunately, most AP courses emphasize rote learning (there are fantastic exceptions but usually it's cram for the test). Here's what a whole ton of studies show:
[LIST]
INTJs and INFJs have the highest GPAs on average, with ISTJs close behind.

Man. Where are all these schools that don't emphasize rote learning? I go to UCB now and still have the same issue.

[Enyo]

Recently an online friend of mine, whom I know fairly well, said that for a few years when she was in school her parents payed her every time she got an A. She payed them the same amount for every B she got. Normally I don't get worked up about money-related issues, but for some reason this didn't sit well with me...maybe it's because my family isn't exactly rich and I've never gotten payed despite the fact that I make mostly A's and a few B's. That was my first reaction, anyway.

But the more I think about it, the more glad I am that they don't pay me...something seems wrong about bribing your kids to get them ahead. If they're as smart as you want them to be, then shouldn't they be able to do this on their own, without getting money involved? On the other hand, if it was actually her idea and she asked them to pay her for making good grades, doesn't that still sort of make it all a lie?

I guess the reason I'm so confused about it is that she's a fairly intelligent and principled person whom I wouldn't expect to get involved with it if it were bad...so am I wrong?

Now that my son is in middle school, I pay him $5 per A. He lives on the other side of the continent, so I don't get to do a lot of the day-to-day stuff with him. I'll help him with his homework over the phone and encourage him, but that's pretty much it.

He didn't ask me to pay him, and at that amount, it's not enough to be a bribe, but more of a recognition of good work. For my son, though, he's very smart, but also very lazy about doing his homework. He's getting better now, though, since he's beginning to understand that there is a correlation between good grades and getting into a good school and scholarships.

[Little Linguist]

I never got paid for grades, I was definitely pressured due to poor finances in our family back then, but I was always fearful of bad grades instead of trying to learn from them and move on. It sort of undermined my confidence a bit. I felt like a mistake was fatal almost, like I would surely choke upon entering my home instead of simply thinking "That sucks! Now I don't get that comic book I wanted!" or something.

The thing is, "bribing" albeit an accurate word may be necessary. Children need motivation, and I sure as shit did NOT value my education the way I do now back then. I did it out of fear, not because I had any positive value for school. I think that would have made my school career a lot easier.



Right. School is your career, and incentives must be there for anyone to succeed at anything, if you have no goal to work toward you won't want to work at all. The diploma is not always the thing most valued, even though they might value it and appreciate the effort put into it later on, it wasn't the focal point for me in school.

My situation was very similar to yours, Kyuuei, when I was growing up. I grew up with my grandparents, who were retired at the time and made an average of 20-30k a year, 3k of which went towards private education per year. We were just far enough above the financial aid bracket to not qualify for help, but we earned too little, so it REALLY hurt.

My family basically made the following deal with me: You do not have to get a job and earn money (even though we could really use it) if you promise to get good grades and study hard. They even eased up on me and did not expect me to do chores.

The concept was: If you get excellent grades, you will get a very good scholarship to go to university. If you do not, we cannot send you to university. So forget working and just study hard so you can get ahead.

I had so much inner drive, that I often forgot to eat and drink, much less have a life. I was so driven that most people thought I was some kinda crazy IXTJ for a long-ass time. Trust me, when you have that kind of pressure on you, you do not need money. You feel like shit if you get anything less than perfect because you know how much your family is sacrificing to give you all they can.

Of course most people don't grow up under those conditions, so I GUESS they need some kind of external force to push them (especially if they are E's and the force does not come from the circumstances, as in my case).

But I'm hesitant to say that MONEY is the correct answer. I mean, isn't our society and aren't our kids sooooo focused on materialism? Shouldn't this be a kind of 'survival of the fittest' where the brightest and the most capable succeed?

I'm not sure if money should fit into the equation. For people that have a lot of money, this point is moot because they don't even need the money. For people without money, the point is moot because they don't have the money.

So we're basically talking about - excuse me for the crass term - yuppie and upper-middle class to middle-class parents who wonder how to get kids off their asses and work. Pfft...I don't know. I had thought that by that time you would have taught your children the values of hard work and studying WITHOUT financial compensation just by your OWN good example. Heh.

On the other hand, I have no kids, and I was raised very *very* traditionally (since my grandparents raised me), so I have some wacked-out and old-fashioned views regarding raising kids, I guess. That's why I'm anxious about having them because I damned well have no idea how someone can do it in this day and age. So I could very well be talking out my ass, farting, and saying crap.

*shrugs* I don't know. It just doesn't sit well with me.

[V Profane]

I don't have a problem with incentivising kids to try harder with their studies, which is what 'paying' them is. Particularly if they, like my younger self, were rightfully disillusioned by the knee-high bullshit compulsory education forces children to wade through.

In later life it's much easier to see the value of education, knowledge and learning for it's own sake. I think most kids could use all the encouragement they can get to make the most of what, for them, is often a bad situation.

[alicia91]

SP's make up about 90% of students in alternative schools. Note that not that high a % of the population ends up in alternative high schools but it shows how little the needs of these students are met...

Wow, I didn't know we were such academic failures. I was in gifted classes in elementary and middle school and in all advanced classes in high school. I was also on the honor roll and got into the Uni of my choice. Hmm...guess I'm an exception.

I don't pay my kids for grades but I usually buy them a nice gift or take them on a trip if they've done well at school.

[GZA]

This analysis is very Americanized, though. It doesn't even translate to Canada.

Our trade schools are called "College" (as opposed to University, which is not the same thing) and though they're not as theoretical, you come out of there with a solid job (it's lined up for you) and solid professional wages, usually enough to raise a family on.

Being that our systems are different, though I'd suspect more xSxPs go the College route in our country, I'd also suspect it's far more diversified than what Americans would experience in their differently set up schools.

We still have our British influence--University has always been more "edification for the purpose of enlightenment" rather than pragmatic--this whole "University for career preparation" stuff only began occurring in Canada after the Free Trade Agreement in 1989. As such, our University attendance is a fraction of yours, and far more people of all types choose the pragmatic College route.

We also don't have SAT and other sort of standardized measures. We just use grades and maybe stuff like what extra caricular stuff you did, but only soemtimes. Another difference is that we don't care aboutt he specific school as much, but the degree. In the US in seems if you went to Harvard or whatever it's a big deal and theirs so much reputation so you look good, in here it's just having the degree and the knowledge, while the reputation of schools is a lot more understated and almost secretive.

[FDG]

Mmhm. My familiy isn't rich at all, but I never felt pressured to get good grades. I mean, getting good grades is one of the easiest things to do here on earth. Free climbing is something difficult

[edcoaching]

All I have is anecdotal evidence but there are some things I will disagree with here. I know a lot of SJ's and SP's who did really well on the SAT. They were either
a.) bright- and yes there are lot of bright Sensors as there are a lot of not-so-bright iNtuitives.
b.) spent THOUSANDS of dollars on SAT prep!!!! :shock:

A lot of people say that the SAT is a "follow your gut" test but I don't think I had to do that at all. If anything I'd say that my Ti (strong analytical skills) helped me a lot more than my Ne.

I'm happy I got my sky-high SAT score for near free (well, I paid money to take the test and I did take the PSAT.. twice.) ;)

But the Merit scholarships go to the top 1%--and of course 18% or so of those are Sensing types. The SAT doesn't measure intelligence, anyway, only how well you will do the first 6 months of college (that's what it was designed to do if you read the official literature on it). The playing field narrowed a bit when the test dumped the analogy section, the true N playing field. Move down from the top 1-2% and you'll find lots of S's, yes.

And the prep can improve scores. If your goal is to get into a college that insists on high scores, then the $ spent are worth it, I guess.

[edcoaching]

edcoaching,

Not that I don't trust the results but I am curious to where you got the studies from. I notice that you had a couple other posts with results from research and I'm curious to see if there are any true relationships between type preferences and abilities/beliefs.

SATs don't measure intelligence or abilities; the test was designed to help predict how well students will do their first six months of college.

There's actually an Isabel Briggs Memorial Library at www.capt.org. The bibliography is online but you have to request and pay small copy charges to actually read anything--or go to Gainesville. The MBTI manual (another print-only document) summarizes all kinds of studies.

The PSAT/merit scholar info has been verified in several studies and it pretty much comes down to the N advantage on analogies and the fact that you are penalized for guessing. N's trust their hunches; S's get more and more nervous.

The SAT information came from a study of 9000 students in MA where the SAT publishers gave the researchers item-by-item responses for all the students. They only compared students who had the course prep, AP classes etc., and the predictor of score variance was type. Again, it came down to the items on which more students were guessing. This study was before they removed the analogy section from the SAT which helps S's some.

But the truth still remains that it's a biased test. Isabel Myers did the first studies on it back in the 1960's when the real MBTI was actually published by ETS, who also publish the SAT. She pointed out the biases and they didn't like her results. Most likely (and people who have worked there have said this is true) the test designers were mostly Intuitive and designed it with their definition of intelligence/college skills in mind.

[edcoaching]

Man. Where are all these schools that don't emphasize rote learning? I go to UCB now and still have the same issue.

Hooray for small liberal arts colleges. International Baccalaureate schools. (Sometimes) high schools located near research universities or in college towns where there are enough professor's kids who push for inquiry-based learning.

Some AP high schools pull it off.

[edcoaching]

Wow, I didn't know we were such academic failures. I was in gifted classes in elementary and middle school and in all advanced classes in high school. I was also on the honor roll and got into the Uni of my choice. Hmm...guess I'm an exception.

I don't pay my kids for grades but I usually buy them a nice gift or take them on a trip if they've done well at school.


Well, only a small part of the population ends up in those alternative high schools--and they exist to contain behavior, not academic, problems. So of course tons of SPs succeed in schools
One study interviewed students about how they got into trouble and a lot of the SPs admitted to spontaneous experiments: "If I do this, what will the teacher do?" If it became a habit, they spent a lot of time in the principal's office.
A large percentage of elementary teachers are SJ and they're the type most likely to see the above SP behavior as disobedient rather than kinda natural kid stuff, setting the SPs of the world up for trouble. Again, lots figure out how to play the game.


Another way to say it is that all types have ways of getting into trouble at school (well, all but a couple types...). The SP style, though, is most likely to result in getting into trouble with consequences. Watch Cool Hand Luke to see what I mean. EN's tend to be more scheming about it and may either never get caught or scheme in such ways that the admin look like idiots and nothing is done. INs read books in the back of the room and even if they get kicked out for doing it, it's not the same kind of trouble. Or, they simply refuse to do dumb assignments and fail, but they don't care.

[FDG]

ecoachin, there's a fundamental problem with every theory that claims that N types score higher on IQ tests/SAT tests than S types:

often the questions used to determine whether a person is N or S directly tie into how smart the person is, which means that very often smart sensors score as intuitives (on MBTI). This obviously biases these types of research.

[edcoaching]

ecoachin, there's a fundamental problem with every theory that claims that N types score higher on IQ tests/SAT tests than S types:

often the questions used to determine whether a person is N or S directly tie into how smart the person is, which means that very often smart sensors score as intuitives (on MBTI). This obviously biases these types of research.

Get a room of educators together who haven't just taken an inventory to determine their type but have verified it through experiential exercises and study. Divide them into S and N groups to talk about their experiences with grades and with standardized tests. You will find a higher % of N's who scored high on the standardized tests without a whole lot of prep. You will find a higher % of S's who got fantastic grades and did worse than they expected to on the standardized tests--seeing their scores they felt like they'd been kicked in the stomach. Obviously there will be some exceptions on each side.

I do not think N's are smarter than S's. I think that the US education system, at least, is biased in favor of Intuition. I don't really want to argue about whether the design of the study overidentified S's as N's because that takes the focus off the fact that the system is still putting more S's at risk and with our Merit Scholar system, a whole lot of scholarship $$ is at stake.

Another example is out of North Carolina State. Federer, an engineering professor, taught type to his students and soon the school realized that N's were graduating in engineering at a much higher rate than S's. They changed the course sequence so that the first classes were more hands on rather than abstract/theoretical and equaled the graduation rate.

That's what I want to see happen everywhere--recognize type biases in how things are being taught/assessed and level the playing field !!

[ygolo]

Another example is out of North Carolina State. Federer, an engineering professor, taught type to his students and soon the school realized that N's were graduating in engineering at a much higher rate than S's. They changed the course sequence so that the first classes were more hands on rather than abstract/theoretical and equaled the graduation rate.

That's what I want to see happen everywhere--recognize type biases in how things are being taught/assessed and level the playing field !!

I am curious did it drop the graduation rates of Ns at the same time as the S graduation rates went-up? Or did the N grad. rate stay constant?

[Gen]

I do not think N's are smarter than S's. I think that the US education system, at least, is biased in favor of Intuition.

Just because Ns tend to get better grades or higher test scores doesn't necessarily mean that the system is skewed to favor Ns. It may, as distasteful as it feels, actually mean that Ns tend to be smarter and/or find learning easier. Most Ns in the U.S. would probably IME agree that the system feels extremely S biased with all its emphasis on rote learning.

[edcoaching]

I am curious did it drop the graduation rates of Ns at the same time as the S graduation rates went-up? Or did the N grad. rate stay constant?

I think it's study 12 on this list. His descriptions of students are really fun too.
Richard Felder's Education-Related Publications (http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/Papers/Education_Papers-Chronological.html)

[edcoaching]

Just because Ns tend to get better grades or higher test scores doesn't necessarily mean that the system is skewed to favor Ns. It may, as distasteful as it feels, actually mean that Ns tend to be smarter and/or find learning easier. Most Ns in the U.S. would probably IME agree that the system feels extremely S biased with all its emphasis on rote learning.

Yeah, N's have to survive or get out of rote atmospheres. Thing is, higher you go, the less there is of that unless an N decides to major in something that continues in that vein. Most N's who make it to college find it much more appealing.

As for smartness...depends on what you're testing for. Exiting med school, S's tend to do better on the practical assessments and N's on the theoretical. One med school just added an emotional intelligence assessment--as in bedside manner--and are finding most of their students are failing it. What kind of smarts are we asking for and are we assessing properly for it?

[Gen]

What kind of smarts are we asking for and are we assessing properly for it?

Thats fine, but its important to be sure that we're not altering the assessment just because we don't like the results. If you focus on leveling the playing field, the danger is that maybe instead you just dilute the intelligence/talent in that field.

Do want only less talented doctors that are nicer?

[edcoaching]

Thats fine, but its important to be sure that we're not altering the assessment just because we don't like the results. If you focus on leveling the playing field, the danger is that maybe instead you just dilute the intelligence/talent in that field.

Do want only less talented doctors that are nicer?

Given that bedside manner actually affects patient recovery, and that patients with different type preferences need different things from their doctor (Brock and Allen) then doctors need to have both. They're the only ones I go to...:blush:

Here's another way to look at it. A colleague of mine has done this experiment with over 20 groups of educators. They divide into S, N, T, and F groups (not based on reported, assessed type, but on best-fit after training in type...) and as groups, come up with the best test question they can to assess students on a given body of knowledge. In each case, each group has come up with questions that are biased in favor of their own learning style. S's are fact-based, N's are what-if or global, T's are prove/disprove, and F's somehow involve impact on people. So...if assessors aren't aware of their own biases, the assessment results may not have anything to do with ability or intelligence...

[ptgatsby]

Do want only less talented doctors that are nicer?

I would. There is no notable better care from better educated (ie: "Top schools") or more intelligent doctors. More to the point, I'd rather be diagnosed by a computer for a lot of ailments, than with any doctor of any skill level. This may be in part because of universal standardized testing.

Intelligence requirements establishes a floor on capabilities. Above that, it ceases to be a good proxy for ability.

Regarding the testing re: N/S part, medical doctors do not have a high enough IQ to cause an imbalance of Ns over Ss. For clarity, I'm saying IQ does matter in general, however it does not seem to be much of a barrier for the medical profession.

[cafe]

A brilliant doctor isn't much good if he won't listen to patients. My doctor isn't probably brilliant, but she listens and if she doesn't know what's going on, she refers. :wub:

[kyuuei]

My situation was very similar to yours, Kyuuei, when I was growing up. I grew up with my grandparents, who were retired at the time and made an average of 20-30k a year, 3k of which went towards private education per year. We were just far enough above the financial aid bracket to not qualify for help, but we earned too little, so it REALLY hurt.

My family basically made the following deal with me: You do not have to get a job and earn money (even though we could really use it) if you promise to get good grades and study hard. They even eased up on me and did not expect me to do chores.

The concept was: If you get excellent grades, you will get a very good scholarship to go to university. If you do not, we cannot send you to university. So forget working and just study hard so you can get ahead.

I had so much inner drive, that I often forgot to eat and drink, much less have a life. I was so driven that most people thought I was some kinda crazy IXTJ for a long-ass time. Trust me, when you have that kind of pressure on you, you do not need money. You feel like shit if you get anything less than perfect because you know how much your family is sacrificing to give you all they can.

Of course most people don't grow up under those conditions, so I GUESS they need some kind of external force to push them (especially if they are E's and the force does not come from the circumstances, as in my case).

But I'm hesitant to say that MONEY is the correct answer. I mean, isn't our society and aren't our kids sooooo focused on materialism? Shouldn't this be a kind of 'survival of the fittest' where the brightest and the most capable succeed?

I'm not sure if money should fit into the equation. For people that have a lot of money, this point is moot because they don't even need the money. For people without money, the point is moot because they don't have the money.

So we're basically talking about - excuse me for the crass term - yuppie and upper-middle class to middle-class parents who wonder how to get kids off their asses and work. Pfft...I don't know. I had thought that by that time you would have taught your children the values of hard work and studying WITHOUT financial compensation just by your OWN good example. Heh.

On the other hand, I have no kids, and I was raised very *very* traditionally (since my grandparents raised me), so I have some wacked-out and old-fashioned views regarding raising kids, I guess. That's why I'm anxious about having them because I damned well have no idea how someone can do it in this day and age. So I could very well be talking out my ass, farting, and saying crap.

*shrugs* I don't know. It just doesn't sit well with me.

I feel you entirely. High school I had no life, I didn't go out to Galveston Island to party on the weekends, the MOST I did was the occasional school event or a movie if I earned enough through babysitting. My parents were stuck both working to make enough money to get us by, and even then we've still had to spend much of our lives avoiding collection calls until we have enough money to give them up until recently.

I was always volunteering myself to stay and watch the house and my youngest ones so that they could have fun and do what they wanted. I never thought twice of it. My grades were my job, and since I wasn't working, I felt like I HAD to be good at my job so that it would be one less burden on my parents. But I was able to see their plight.. not all kids are mature like that. And Not all parents WANT them to see plight and such. I know my parents still regret that they had to rely on me so much back then, even if I didn't mind it and it probably helped me be responsible and hard-working later on.

I think if you're in a position to do it, and your kid needs a bit of positive encouragement, it's not a bad thing.. but I think I would do something else instead. Like maybe pay them a small allowance for chores, but when it came to school good grades would mean movie nights, or new books or a name-brand shirt from a store. (Those were a BIG deal for me growing up, since I had nothing but hand-me-downs most of my life. To get a shirt bought just for me was something I put a value at when I was young, it was a special thing to me.)

With that said.. Your kids are hopefully more mature and intelligent than simply work + good grades = moneyYAY! through the parenting you've done in their whole lives prior to all of that. MAking sure you kids grow up with values, manners, and such. Most of the young boys I see now-a-days don't even do the little things like take their hats off in church and such! I was even told to do that when I was younger.

A brilliant doctor isn't much good if he won't listen to patients. My doctor isn't probably brilliant, but she listens and if she doesn't know what's going on, she refers. :wub:

My doctor seems to be a good balance. He tells me straight up--even when it was bad news.. and albeit he isn't too sympathetic or anything, I sort of don't care. He's not my friend, he's there to tell me wtf is wrong with me and leave me to it. So long as he gets it right and I get fixed and healed I don't mind how their personalities are.

[animenagai]

. Most Ns in the U.S. would probably IME agree that the system feels extremely S biased with all its emphasis on rote learning.

i agree with that. i had very little drive when i was in the early stages of high school because nothing was interesting to me. i got ok grades, lots of B's and C's, but tbh i was relying on my talents and just went into cruise control. everything was rote learning and just couldn't focus with shit like that. eventually, it became more and more about concepts and i got more and more comfortable with school. make no mistake though, i didn't need to wait till year 12 for that stuff. kinda wish i learned more conceptual stuff from primary school.

[Not_Me]

I wish I could find a way to charge everyone's kids for getting bad grades.

[Evan]

I wish I could find a way to charge everyone's kids for getting bad grades.

Why?

[FDG]

Why?

Because he'd be rich, probably, lol

[EvanTheClown]

To the OP: Good parenting and a healthy lifestyle for the child should be incentive enough to make good grades imo. If your kid inherited excessive rebellion, force them to eat vegetables or some other healthy torture for if they get C's XD

[Randomnity]

I don't think it's a good idea to pay kids for grades, though I don't think it's particularly terrible either, and it might work out well for some kids. I don't think it would have worked well for me, I was too stubborn to have been bribed, plus the cost:benefit ratio is far too high.

Most Ns non-SJs in the U.S.north america would probably IME agree that the system feels extremely S Si biased with all its emphasis on rote learning.
Fixed. I can't speak for all SPs but I certainly wasn't thrilled with the excitement of my classes, in grade school at least.

Really though, I've seen about 2/3 of classes in grade school/early university as mainly focused on rote learning and 1/3 where the rote knowledge is assumed and you have to solve more creative problems using that knowledge to get any marks. In the more advanced classes of university the latter is more common.

[Viv]

I can see Xavier's p.o.v.. I guess it highly depends on our value system/how we were raised.. I grew up poor. Money was never an option for bribery. Bringing home good grades was always something to be 'expected.' It was all tough-love.

Growing up, I never even got a single praise for bringing home straight A's from my mom. Whenever I did, she would glare at me and say, "That's what you're Supposed to DO!" Even if she would have bribed me with money, I probably wouldn't accept it because when I earn my A's, it's usually because I thoroughly enjoy the subject. Heck, nowadays, whenever she offers me money, I rarely accept it. I'd just feel too guilty (not unless it's for traditional gift-giving holidays). Other than that, I just can't (not unless if I really really need it).

Besides, taking money from another person actually makes me feel inferior. It's like the master-slave theory. I choose to live my life my own way. If I were to soley depend on her for my everything, I wouldn't quite live an own authentic life, because beyond the acceptance holds issues of expectations/conforming to others' wishes/desires.

[lastrailway]

I haven't read but the OP and the post I quote below, so maybe I'm repeating something already said.

I don't see anything negative with paying kids to get good grades. Sure, one could argue that being a good student is for the kid's own good, but it really isn't necessary for the kid to get high grades in every single subject. Actually it isn't necessary for the kid to get good grades to most of the subjects, but the ones that interest them and at an advanced level and older age.

So if parents are expecting their children to get high grades, they're actually expecting them to do a job and all jobs should be paid. More motivation and more self confidence for the child, because they have a reason to work and get good grades, it's not just that their parents force them. And a bit more reason to parents' expectations from their children.

I can see Xavier's p.o.v.. I guess it highly depends on our value system/how we were raised.. I grew up poor. Money was never an option for bribery. Bringing home good grades was always something to be 'expected.' It was all tough-love.

Money was not an option for me either (not that anyone did care about my grades, anyway), but I believe the value to pay someone to do their best is a good value. Especially for subjects the kids aren't interested at. To do an effort on something you don't care about has to have a reward.

[Viv]

Good point. I didn't read the other posts other than the OP's either & the one above.. :blushing: If I repeat something that's already been said, then my bad..

IMHO It boils down to intrinsic/extrinsic values & personal rewards. One could gain strong work ethics from getting paid for good grades (which can then develop into an internal value), but may lose core importance for education if the rewards are persistently external. One can also gain deeper values for education for the sake of learning as their own personal rewards system without the financial gains, but may lose integral values for artificial compensation.

One can also learn for the sake of learning for their own pure enjoyment/get paid for it if they wish to (and if their parents can afford to). In this case, they get the benefits of both worlds (if it's done without expectations to conform on their parents' behalf in other aspects of their lives- such as their genuine respect for their child's interests/true personality).

Bottom line: It depends on the individuals’ values/lifestyle/upbringing. Not everyone has rich parents who can afford to pay them for good grades. If they do, then good for them. If they don't, then oh well.

[Hmm]

Provided nothing else works, is it better to teach them to be motivated by something distasteful like money, or to allow them to cycle through their schooling unmotivated and do poorly?

[Uberfuhrer]

Provided nothing else works, is it better to teach them to be motivated by something distasteful like money, or to allow them to cycle through their schooling unmotivated and do poorly?

The problem here is that people don't usually eat money.

I think I would have benefited from getting paid for good grades. I don't think it's a bad idea, at all. I mean to get good grades is hard work, so shouldn't you get paid for your work?

[Mo_(operalover)]

I improved dramatically from the near bottom of the class to the near top during one exam back in the 8th grade. Part of the motivation was that my father had promised to buy me roller-skates if I should improve. When the time came to buy me the gift, he said he had changed his mind and he would buy them for me if I maintained that position during the next exam. It was a little heart-breaking and I dropped dramatically once more.

I don't think kids should be necessarily paid in money for good grades but a physical reward when they're working hard goes a long way in both increasing their motivation and teaching them the invaluable relationship between hard work and reward.

[kyuuei]

The problem here is that people don't usually eat money.

I think I would have benefited from getting paid for good grades. I don't think it's a bad idea, at all. I mean to get good grades is hard work, so shouldn't you get paid for your work?

Exactly. That's your child's career. People work because they get money. Why shouldn't kids learn about money and the value of working hard over a long period of time for it?

My dad sat me down, and explained how I should use money and the value of it, once I someday work at a job and receive it. I think I would have been a bit better with it (albeit I was better than most kids my age) if I learned it in a more literal way.

[ajblaise]

Paying kids for good grades might get them to cram more the day before the test, but with craming, they won't remember what they learned a few months from then.

[kyuuei]

Paying kids for good grades might get them to cram more the day before the test, but with craming, they won't remember what they learned a few months from then.

Kids do that anyways. ADULTS STILL do that. I still do that in college.

[ajblaise]

Kids do that anyways. ADULTS STILL do that. I still do that in college.

Exactly, so why pay them for it? That's my point.

[kyuuei]

Exactly, so why pay them for it? That's my point.

Because they'll actually cram? .. I'm not saying paying them will turn them into hard working saints.. But the added pressure of "I wanna get that game I've been wanting to play all month!!" riding on the grade, might force them to take the time to actually memorize what they need to know, so they can get those few extra points that make a B an A, that give them the money they need.

I mean, that would have been my reaction in school if I had gotten paid. They're not gonna turn out evil monsters if you don't pay them.. but I really didn't understand the need to strive for my education until it was too late to really get anything done about it. Mayhap a motivator beforehand would have changed my need for it, because a piece of paper didn't mean anything to me back then.