Tertiary Temptation - your experience?

[sleepless]

Tertiary Temptation is how we tend to fall back on the Tertiary function during stress (or whenever), thus losing the connection with our Dominant, which IMO isn't a very good idea. The Tertiary then often behaves in childish ways, as it has a very limited perspective, not at all like the Dominant's holistic view. It seems to me that the Tertiary should only work as a servant to the Dominant/Auxiliary, as a tool, not as something that inferes with the Dominant with its own childish agendas.

People of all types - how does this work for you? If you have any idea? What happens for example when an INP falls back on Si? I have thought about how my own Ti interferes and makes me lose perspective. Some observations on what it does:

- It is how I get caught up in analyzing for its own sake
- It is how I get stuck in an argument about who is "right" and "wrong"
- It tries to understand my Ni vision, and incapable of doing so rejects it as being "illogical" or "not making sense"
- It is how I judge other people


So, what has mean little Tertiary done to you? What is it doing right now? Share the pain.

[Jack Flak]

My function order is Ti-Ne-Ti-Si, so I have something to fall back on. No worries.

[substitute]

My tertiary is Fe. It tempts me to use guilt trips and emotional manipulation to make people do what I want and it rejects Ne's assessment of its aims as not fitting in with the bigger picture and Ti's assessment of them being unethical. It says "but this is how you FEEL!" and snaps at anything that tries to tell me I shouldn't act on that feeling, saying it's trying to invalidate me. It plays on my old fears and frustrations of people (my family especially) laughing at me when I cried, and accuses people/things of being mean and bullying me if they say I'm wrong.

BUT I've been working hard on it and between my last two professional individual function tests (about a year apart) it leapt up from a score of 23/100 to 65. Might have gone up further now, I don't know, that last test was about 8 months ago. And I've been using it more positively, in general. I've been learning to recognize when it's tempting me to spoilt kid behaviour and to consciously veto it.

[entropie]

yeah Fe and entp is really a bad combination and it creates a lot of problems.

I have come to use it creatively on weekends :D

http://www.theedge.co.nz/Portals/0/images/andynakeddrivethru5.JPG

[Delphyne]

With my tertiary Si I get stuck on details and insist that these details are important. It also hinders me to see situations in a new light and jump into an experience without preconceptions. Si lets me hold on to old beliefs.

[Jennifer]

I tend to pull back from external engagement, disappear, and try to keep all the practical issues of my life stable so as not to capsize anything.

It's also tempting to not take in new information based on engagement with the world but just to base all my thinking (and continued speculations) on what I already think things to be... not wanting to challenge my assumptions, not wanting to uproot my world.

(Si, I think, is a function that seeks tangible/palpable stability. Traditionally, you will see it play out that way as a primary function as well.)

[edcoaching]

That would be Te or Ti for me, depending on which theorist you're following. I can get almost inappropriately objective, especially compared with my normal style. For example, i was in charge of a leadership meeting. One ENTP cornered me, convinced she'd been slighted, left out of committees she'd desired.

I was stressed to the max, listened to here without one iota of emotional reaction and was able to objectively say that since in the course of 3 months, with multiple reminders, she hadn't informed me of her committee picks, it was her fault, not mine. I couldn't have cared less whether she resigned on the spot, which actually would have put us in a bind. I've done similar things with my own kids whereas when not stressed i'm overly empathetic.

Se is much more dangerous territory for me...but also a source of complete relaxation since it turns off Introverted Intuition and gives me a rest.

[Evan]

Thinking of the tertiary function as something to fall back on during stress seems to miss the picture completely.

All people use all four functions ALL THE TIME. Maybe even multiple times per second (certainly perceiving functions are used multiple times a second.)

An Ni user who only falls back on Ti during stress is going to have ridiculously inconsistent visions. They're gonna make basically no sense at all. Thinking AND Feeling (and sensing) must be used at all times to check Intuition. Intuition itself comes up with lots of ideas, yeah, but they need to be pruned so that you're left with visions that are consistent with values and logic (and sensory data).

I personally use Ti to refine my visions much more than I use Fe, although both are used all the time.

I don't know where the use under stress idea came from, but I just think it's completely wrong.

[sleepless]

All people use all four functions ALL THE TIME. Maybe even multiple times per second (certainly perceiving functions are used multiple times a second.)
I don't know about this. Is this how you experience it, or is it just an idea? I definitely don't experience it like this, rather I think I can identify all the functions being used at a time, if I'm so inclined. If all are always being used, then that must be in very very subtle ways that we cannot observe ourselves, and that would make it useless to talk about functions. Still most people (in this thread for example) seem to understand themselves as being ruled by not more than one or two functions at the same time.

An Ni user who only falls back on Ti during stress is going to have ridiculously inconsistent visions. They're gonna make basically no sense at all. Thinking AND Feeling (and sensing) must be used at all times to check Intuition. Intuition itself comes up with lots of ideas, yeah, but they need to be pruned so that you're left with visions that are consistent with values and logic (and sensory data).
Could you give an example? My visions are very consistent, whether my Ti tries to make "sense" of them or not. Suppose that I *know* that in the future I will do this and this, because that is what my Ni sees. Then Ti can interfere all it wants to, try to analyze it, derive it from some underlying logics, but it won't be able to, as Ni doesn't play in the field of words and logic. I see what I see, and I only rely on Ti as a way of promoting my visions or ideas in front of others, using clear reasoning to make my point.

[Thursday]

under stress, i recall reading, was the 4th function and in indignation-not support

the tertiary is when there is a lack of info
its like an ace up the sleeve

[ZiL]

Tertiary Fe...manifested negatively

Hmm, If I get stuck into a situation that for some reason I suddenly don't want to be in (if I feel trapped or whatever), I'll start sucking up really badly in a desperate effort to escape. Like when I quit my first job I made up some crap about doing a big school project and "I'm so sorry" and, etc, etc. I just become way too nice, even if the person I'm talking to doesn't logically deserve it.

I can also get paranoid about others intentions when I'm in an anxious mood. What did that look mean? Could that thing I said the other day be taken the wrong way? I'll imagine all sorts of negative responses others might have had to something I may have done or said and convince myself that this or that person might be mad at me next time I see them. Even though they aren't.

[edcoaching]

There's actually quite a lot of research on the third/fourth function and stress. While nothing holds true for everyone, there are some patterns.

One, as Averex points out, the 4th function can trip us up. We don't use it well--overusing it brings on stress AND we can "erupt" and become a caricature of good use of the function when we're overstressed. So I as an Introverted INtuitive get stressed by paying attention to details AND if I'm overstressed can get obsessed with the details of reality--over or under eating, watching TV, exercising, etc. BUT using the 4th function also shuts down the dominant. Gives it a rest. For me that's playing piano (I'm not very good so all my attention goes to notes and hands and my INtuition grinds to a halt) or cooking or a good run.

Third function...consciously using it leads to balanced Perception or Judgment which often breaks through stress. If we aren't consciously using it it can slip in immaturely. People have more or less skill with it, depending on age, training, effort, will, etc.

Yes, we can all use all of the functions, but most of us don't do them all very well. Some people can't even use their first two very well. They act like adolescents--can't make up their minds or rush to conclusions. Using all the functions well is a lifelong journey toward wholeness and not everyone gets there.

[edcoaching]

Tertiary Fe...manifested negatively

Hmm, If I get stuck into a situation that for some reason I suddenly don't want to be in (if I feel trapped or whatever), I'll start sucking up really badly in a desperate effort to escape. Like when I quit my first job I made up some crap about doing a big school project and "I'm so sorry" and, etc, etc. I just become way too nice, even if the person I'm talking to doesn't logically deserve it.

I can also get paranoid about others intentions when I'm in an anxious mood. What did that look mean? Could that thing I said the other day be taken the wrong way? I'll imagine all sorts of negative responses others might have had to something I may have done or said and convince myself that this or that person might be mad at me next time I see them. Even though they aren't.

Kind of the reverse of my problem with Te. Thanks for the insight--kinda even explains part of the behavior of that ENTP I mentioned earlier...:)

[heart]

I've gone nuts at Christmas with the whole "create or recapture childhood experiences" thing through scents or sights.

Sweets, especially ice cream.

Getting lost in the scented candle shop.

[arcticangel02]

Tertiary Te. When stressed, I usually get sort of bossy and push my opinions onto other people - everyone should be doing things my way, and I'm really bad at seeing other people's viewpoints. I also have a tendency to overuse a smug 'I told you so', when I end up getting my way. Usually at those points I'm not so pleasant to be around.

[ygolo]

Tertiary Si:
I actually make use of it quite often, and to good effect.

However, somtimes I get very rigid about things being a certain way (Ti+Si), and no seeing how other says can be (Ne locked out).

At other times, I can go on autopilot, simply applying memorized techiniques over-and-over again to deal with situatioms, and though feeling stifled and uncreative, will continue to stay in my rut. --actually, this is a lot more comon.

Since both Si and Ti are introvrerted functions, I essentially issolate myself. My Si is extremely strong (as are my Ni and Fi).

The compined Ti+Ni+Si+Fi can be a trap where I feel partially fulfilled but not quite the same as I would be using Ti+Ne.

[FDG]

With my tertiary Se (which in MBTI is one-on-one with the hidden agenda of socionics, but exclusively for extraverted types) I tend to simply engage in an excessive way in various physical pleasures such as excessive exercising, excessive partying and drinking, etc as a form of reality-escapism. This is also stadard E-7w8 behavior.
Fortunately it doesn't happen frequently.

[mlittrell]

Tertiary Temptation is how we tend to fall back on the Tertiary function during stress (or whenever), thus losing the connection with our Dominant, which IMO isn't a very good idea. The Tertiary then often behaves in childish ways, as it has a very limited perspective, not at all like the Dominant's holistic view. It seems to me that the Tertiary should only work as a servant to the Dominant/Auxiliary, as a tool, not as something that inferes with the Dominant with its own childish agendas.

People of all types - how does this work for you? If you have any idea? What happens for example when an INP falls back on Si? I have thought about how my own Ti interferes and makes me lose perspective. Some observations on what it does:

- It is how I get caught up in analyzing for its own sake
- It is how I get stuck in an argument about who is "right" and "wrong"
- It tries to understand my Ni vision, and incapable of doing so rejects it as being "illogical" or "not making sense"
- It is how I judge other people


So, what has mean little Tertiary done to you? What is it doing right now? Share the pain.


we never lose connection with our dominant. your tertiary, if used, filters through your auxilary, and then through your dominant.

and my tertiary has done me wonders. in some ways, my shadow has also.

[sleepless]

we never lose connection with our dominant. your tertiary, if used, filters through your auxilary, and then through your dominant.

This is exactly how I think it should be - Dominant --> Auxiliary --> Tertiary - but is is obvious that our Dominant isn't there all of the time, at least not for the average half-stable person.

(And I don't mean that it's always bad, neither the Tertiary or some shadow function.)


No INTJs so far. I was a bit curious to what they would say about their Fi, considering how utterly amoral some of them seem to be...

[mlittrell]

This is exactly how I think it should be - Dominant --> Auxiliary --> Tertiary - but is is obvious that our Dominant isn't there all of the time, at least not for the average half-stable person.

In what way? Example? You might be right. Personally I see the functions like a filter, or funnel. No matter what you do, each decision MUST filter through all the functions, but some make more of a difference then others.

[Evan]

I don't know about this. Is this how you experience it, or is it just an idea? I definitely don't experience it like this, rather I think I can identify all the functions being used at a time, if I'm so inclined. If all are always being used, then that must be in very very subtle ways that we cannot observe ourselves, and that would make it useless to talk about functions. Still most people (in this thread for example) seem to understand themselves as being ruled by not more than one or two functions at the same time.


Could you give an example? My visions are very consistent, whether my Ti tries to make "sense" of them or not. Suppose that I *know* that in the future I will do this and this, because that is what my Ni sees. Then Ti can interfere all it wants to, try to analyze it, derive it from some underlying logics, but it won't be able to, as Ni doesn't play in the field of words and logic. I see what I see, and I only rely on Ti as a way of promoting my visions or ideas in front of others, using clear reasoning to make my point.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/317374-post29.html

This is a link to a single post I made in the other thread giving reasoning for the fact that all four functions must be used all the time.

[whatever]

ummm... yeah. My friends have complained that I'm a rather backwards person because I'm much nicer when stressed than when I'm happy :doh:

Damned Fe coming out then and making me care what people think and about making sure that they are all happy and cuddly and whatever :steam:

[Evan]

I definitely think it's true that people tend to consciously put more weight on their tertiary and inferior when they're stressed. But it's not like those functions aren't used all the time in normal functioning.

Anyway, I definitely get into Ti thought loops when I'm stressed -- no matter what vision my Ni can come up with, Ti will shoot some part of it down. This gets really annoying when I'm talking to people and thinking a bunch of steps ahead. My Ti will shoot down the direction I'm going in my talking, and I'll just end in the middle of sentences. When it gets really bad I can't really converse at all.

I'd also attribute my tendency to mess around with drugs while depressed to inferior Se (trying to get a NEW sensation).

[Usehername]

INTJs unhealthy Fi:
Getting upset at inconsequential things, feeling that others' are making unfair decisions that affect me. (I used to be very aware of the fact that everyone in my house was "irrational"... turns out I'm the only xxTx in a family of 6). They played by a different set of rules than I did. Decisions by logic vs. decisions by xxFx values means I often did not understand why everyone conspired against me when it came to choosing ways to make things fair.

INTJs healthy Fi:
I can endear many a person to me with my innocent childlike candor. xNTx motivated by the "need to know" fueled by tertiary Fi interaction with others means everyone from ENFxs to ISTxs are taken by my desire to know quirky things about people and ideas and phenomena. Curiosity mixed with pure enjoyment of what I find out means everyone loves that I love the simple pleasures in life. They tend to give me more information if only because they love my genuine thrilled-ness to discover the answer.

["?"]

My function order is Ti-Ne-Ti-Si, so I have something to fall back on. No worries.You may want to check that. You're claiming to use the same function during healthy and unhealthy states.

[PinkPiranha]

Under stress, my Se used to put my foot in the floor and go dragracing. If I was really frustrated, shouting, in tears, I'd do something extreme with my appearance. Like dye my hair hot pink. Or get a mohawk. Do my make-up even brighter or wilder than normal. I used to do my make-up monochrome pink, even my eyebrows, with heavy black eyeliner and my hair done up nuts. Green nail polish. Aggressive clothes.
Sort of a "I'll do whatever I want" in response to constant rejection or something antagonizing me that won't go away. All to the tune of "Dancing in the Dark".

Se's made me do worse things that I won't confess to in type.

[Jack Flak]

You may want to check that. You're claiming to use the same function during healthy and unhealthy states.
LOL, Yeah, that's the joke. I'm glad someone noticed at least.

["?"]

Since MBTI has authored very little on the subject it’s hard to determine what a person’s tertiary does, except it seems apparent that it replaces one’s dominant attitude (E/I) and counters the auxiliary functions development. Since my tertiary is Ni, I clearly cannot use two functions of the same attitude simultaneously so it replaces Ti (hopefully momentarily) and counters my auxiliary in my reverting to failing to take action. Instead of acting on actual opportunities, I merely day dream about them. I begin create this whole inner reality that has nothing to do with what is really happening. I become oblivious to my environment and stop being a responsible adult by glossing over real problems.

[Jack Flak]

Under stress, my Se used to....

I have doubts that's a tertiary function thing and not something more common. I've been there as well, but perhaps not to the same degree. *plays with earrings*

[PinkPiranha]

I have doubts that's a tertiary function thing and not something more common. I've been there as well, but perhaps not to the same degree. *plays with earrings*

I had both good and bad expressions of Se. I would be over-the-top regardless of my mental/emotional state, so the vibrant colors and crazy clothes weren't always stress. They were "me" at any rate. But I cite the externalization because I would go radioactive when I was mortally unhappy or frustrated to the point of wanting to do something rash. I had many sources for this sort of severe and protracted stress. But it came out a LOT when my parents or friends were riding me too hard, being judgmental or reeling off lists of "thou shalts" when I wasn't a bad person to begin with. In particular, for instance, when I was involved with a guy who wanted a piece of me really bad (the feeling was mutual), but we were kept apart by (of all things) social pressure. I was an urban punk and broke, he was southern gentry and well-off. I had no idea such archaic mind sets still existed outside of books, but I was right in the middle of it. So just being around each other every day (in the same garage) was really more than either one of us could stand sometimes. I began acting out quite a bit. I had to vent. He'd come forward, step back, over and over. Masochistic really.

So I still assign that kind of flare up to Se.

[MacGuffin]

So, what has mean little Tertiary done to you? What is it doing right now? Share the pain.

Si, as it's wont to do, will have me wandering around a dark house at night, listening to music on my headphones, while sipping whisk(e)y/scotch/bourbon and thinking about the past... especially the people.

[Kyrielle]

In what way? Example? You might be right. Personally I see the functions like a filter, or funnel. No matter what you do, each decision MUST filter through all the functions, but some make more of a difference then others.

I suppose here is an example:

Healthy me: Ti: "This guy isn't making any sense. Look, see! That doesn't logically connect!" --(gets processed and is filtered)--> Fe: "I know it doesn't make sense, but maybe that's just how he feels about it. It wouldn't be very nice to criticise him like that. It's just his opinion after all." --(is filtered again)--> Ni: "Well if you look at it this way, it DOES make sense. He's just making some jumps."

Conclusion: I do not say anything, but keep listening and understand where the guy is coming from.

Unhealthy me or overcritical me: Ti: "Wtf. This doesn't make any sense. It's makes more sense to go from here to here to here. Why doesn't he see that?" --(is filtered)--> Fe: "It's just his opinion. But it isn't making sense, I agree. But let's not point it out." --(Ni is mysteriously absent and instead it goes back to Ti)--> Ti: "I don't care what you think! It's incorrect!" <--(on-going battle between the two)--> Fe: "No! You can't go around intellectually cutting people down like that. I don't want to argue with him."

Conclusion: Either I look incredibly frustrated because of the battle going on in my head, or Fe caves in to Ti's insistent demands and they both agree to tell the guy how wrong he is. At which point I adamantly try to explain everything wrong with the other person's train of thought throwing in both logical and moral fallacies.

Both are useful. Even being critical is useful, but it's very hard to control and do it without eventually getting huffy and overexcited. That's why I admire NTs and their ability to debate and discuss without getting all huffy about it.

[Jack Flak]

Healthy Me: Daryl Zero (Zero Effect)
Unhealthy Me: Ian Curtis on stage

YouTube - Joy Division - Ian Curtis - Transmission - Live !!! 1979 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FgtcJy-EwY)

^ What function might that be?

[sleepless]

This is a link to a single post I made in the other thread giving reasoning for the fact that all four functions must be used all the time.
Hm, well, I honestly don't know. Maybe it's just different ways to understand the functions/preferences... I'll have to think about it.


In what way? Example? You might be right. Personally I see the functions like a filter, or funnel. No matter what you do, each decision MUST filter through all the functions, but some make more of a difference then others.
Sounds similar to dissonance's idea. I think of it more as the functions being exclusively used, much like Kyrielle (great example there! I totally recognize it), and I also recognize the "argument between the functions". What I meant with the arrows Dom --> Aux --> Ter was that it is ideal to use a function as being at the service of the above ones; Ni making use of Fe, Fe making use of Ti, in the case of an INFJ. (The fourth function would be different though.)

[mlittrell]

Right, but you do not, in my case, use Te instead of Ne. I would use Ne, then Fe, then, if need be, I would dabble in Te...maybe even Si. Ne is how I perceive the world (take in information), Fi is how I make decisions (decide what to do with the information), and Te is my backup. To say I ignore my dominant and use my tertiary wouldn't make sense. Your example makes perfect sense btw :) I understand the arrow "notation".

[dnivera]

Tertiary Fi: I lose my decision-making ability and become paralyzed by other people's expectations/feelings. I worry about how that person will hate me, etc, if I do X, and lose a sense of what's and wrong.

[Mort Belfry]

Si is what will make me a hermit if I'm not careful.

It is what will hold me up at work if I get seven easy jobs and one difficult one, I will labour over the difficult one while my easy jobs start piling up which will make them more difficult when I run out of time.

I have thought about how my own Ti interferes and makes me lose perspective. Some observations on what it does:

- It tries to understand my Ni vision, and incapable of doing so rejects it as being "illogical" or "not making sense"


This is why I have trouble trusting Ni.

[Evan]

Yes, Ni unchecked isn't that great. But then, neither is any function.

[sleepless]

This is why I have trouble trusting Ni.
Yes, Ni unchecked isn't that great. But then, neither is any function.
I think there is a point in having not more than one basic approach to life (Dominant function, that is), instead of some compromise between two or more. The Ti and Ni approach (for example) collide with each other and doesn't approve of the other. The question then is: Which one do you approve of? What is your approach? If we refuse to choose then we might not get anywhere with anything. One day we try to logically prove something through thorough analysis and argumentation, the next day we see through it all as being completely irrelevant and out of perspective. Mort Belfry, as an INTP you probably don't have to bother with Ni very much. For me, Ni is a holistic function whereas Ti is quite narrow. Your Ti probably works much better.

[cloakofsnow]

So, what has mean little Tertiary done to you? What is it doing right now? Share the pain.

My tertiary function is Si, and this is a very "mysterious" function to me. During normal times I think I resort to this function when I'm engaged in my hobbies or some sort of creative and imaginative activity. I wonder if that is the general case -- that people often use their tertiary function for hobbies, art, etc. But in moments when I'm "in the grip", Si starts working with my inferior Te. Te naturally makes conclusions that opposes my dominant Fi values, and Si only gathers "evidence" to support this. During such times, I would be very paranoid and suspicious. I would notice all sorts of details and "clues" about a situation and other people, and based on these little clues I will make huge, sweeping conclusions and feel very certain that I must be right, that what I hold dear is at stake. I can create this whole entire scenario inside of my head and feel quite sure that it is the objective truth. Only when I get back to normal again do I realize that I've been blowing everything out of proportion, jumping to conclusions, and being completely one-sided in my perspective of the situation.

[Evan]

I think there is a point in having not more than one basic approach to life (Dominant function, that is), instead of some compromise between two or more. The Ti and Ni approach (for example) collide with each other and doesn't approve of the other.

It makes sense that one would be dominant, but the fact that they contradict each other is a good thing. For an ISTP, Ni will take Ti out of one narrow path of analysis, opening the ISTP to new ideas. For an INFJ, Ti will knock down Ni ideas that don't make sense. The functions have to keep each other in check because alone they're all pretty much useless.

Any good idea is going to be N (new idea to contemplate) analyzed by T (using deductive logic to see if it makes sense). S needs to ground N ideas in concrete terms, F needs to okay an idea to motivate T to analyze it.

[sleepless]

Well, it's just my personal experience that Ti interferes far too much with Ni, to a point where it becomes slightly destructive. The thing is, I feel like I don't have to worry about my Ti, I overuse it anyway, and it will knock down ideas that don't make sense, or at least try to. Sometimes it tries hard at it, but doesn't succeed. Ti: "This doesn't make any sense." Ni: "Well, obviously it's still my perception. What am I going to do about that?" Our third function is actually often our second most used function, as it lets us keep our dominant I/E, and especially so we're having problems with our Auxiliary, as for me. Still, I can see the need to "check" your Dominant, but I say the fourth function should do that, as being the opposite of your Dom.

[Evan]

Every function should check every other one, honestly.

I think the reason we're disagreeing at all is that we understand the functions differently. I've done a ton of work over the last few months trying to figure out a computer science-ey model of how these functions would interact (I'm pretty obsessed with programming). Plus, I talked to BW on AIM for hours and hours (and nocapszy too) until my model made complete sense to me and included every single possible cognitive behavior. (Behavior is a key word, not motivation.)

On top of that, I'm probably much more T than you are and much less F. Even within type, there is room for variation.

[Jack Flak]

On top of that, I'm probably much more T than you are and much less F. Even within type, there is room for variation.
My position is that you can't escape your type per se, but your strengths and weaknesses compared to another of the same type can be like night and day. Of course, you and I don't seem to agree on much related to personality study, so don't "take my word for it."

[booyalab]

My position is that you can't escape your type per se,

Well not INTPs anyway. We can only seem to escape it per Ne.

[Evan]

I never take anyone's word for it.

We do agree on this, though. (You pretty much said exactly what I said, lol.)

(And we agreed on my ADD thread)

[mlittrell]

I posted a couple of posts back and would like to change what I said a little, and back up what dissonance said about how every function should check every other one. The first two functions seem to be the most natural to use. In an emotionally unhealthy person, there seems to be a split between the first and the second function. For example, In an unhealthy INFJ, they are having trouble using Ni and Fe together to make decisions. In a healthy INFJ, they can use both Ni and Fe together to make decisions because their tertiary, Ti, is serving as a "translator" if you will, between the first two functions. Se, their shadow function, may do the same thing as Ti but in an unconscious sort of way.

In short, the first two functions are two wise men speaking different languages. The tertiary is a translator between the first two functions, and the shadow determines how good of a translator the tertiary is.

That's the way I think of it.

[Jack Flak]

(You pretty much said exactly what I said, lol.)
I attempted, and possibly failed, to differentiate.

It seemed as if you were saying people "lean" toward T if they are F, whereas I consider them never to lean away from what they are, just having addditional skills.

[Evan]

What do you mean by "what they are" though? People lean all over the place. Lots of Fs lean away from T, I'd say healthy Fs lean towards. Just like healthy Ts lean toward F, healthy Ns lean towards S, etc.

In IJs and EPs, T and F doesn't really mean as much anyway. Both T and F are somewhat in the grips of the dominant. They should hopefully both be consciously referenced as much as possible.

I'm probably still not understanding you. What's the difference between leaning towards T and developing T?

[Jack Flak]

What do you mean by "what they are" though? People lean all over the place. Lots of Fs lean away from T, I'd say healthy Fs lean towards. Just like healthy Ts lean toward F, healthy Ns lean towards S, etc.

In IJs and EPs, T and F doesn't really mean as much anyway. Both T and F are somewhat in the grips of the dominant. They should hopefully both be consciously referenced as much as possible.

I'm probably still not understanding you. What's the difference between leaning towards T and developing T?
Fundamentally, it comes down to the preference. An intellectual genius could be INFP. He'd still prefer feeling.

We see things very differently. I don't follow the "developing functions" argument, even. I base type on categorizations to sixteen types, and other categories not verbalized. People always seem to act according to type, though they are individuals. INFPs always act like INFPs, in as much as the type itself means. That's all I'm really concerned with in type study. I don't care what someone's supposed tertiary function is, by any means. I predict behavior and choose action based on type.

[Evan]

Ah, the behaviorist approach. Totally valid.

The only problem with your approach in my opinion is that you shove people into boxes. Yes, everyone says this. But the thing with functions is that you can explain differences within one type by different functional weights.

And plus, I've definitely come across people that don't at all fit the prototype for their type. I'd like to think of myself as an example, but there's no reason you should believe me.

I'm just curious, what would you type me as if I didn't have my type listed? Or would you hold off because there isn't enough information? Do I look like a "normal" INFJ?

[Jack Flak]

I thought I'd pegged you as INFJ when you didn't have your type listed, but I could be completely mis-remembering it (Depends if you had your type listed about a week ago). I do think you're INFJ.

[Evan]

Heh, well maybe I'm deluding myself into thinking I'm really that much of an individual, then :)

I do tend to be much more consciously aware of true/false stuff than good/bad stuff, and I pretty much never debate ethics, except to point out inconsistencies in people's views. I would say this is due to a strengthened tertiary Ti and an underdeveloped Fe.

I love Ts (especially NTPs) for this reason; they never (rarely, I should say) get offended by my views :)

Anyway, just so I'm contributing something here: have you ever come across people that you couldn't type? Or at least people that seem not to fit a type in terms of behavior? I run across people like this every once in a while, and it takes a lot of guess/checking to reduce their behaviors down to something that makes sense in the MBTI system.

[Jack Flak]

Heh, well maybe I'm deluding myself into thinking I'm really that much of an individual, then :)
You're misinterpreting me as someone who decides type based on such simple factors. What makes an INFJ is the ethereal impenetrability.

Anyway, just so I'm contributing something here: have you ever come across people that you couldn't type? Or at least people that seem not to fit a type in terms of behavior? I run across people like this every once in a while, and it takes a lot of guess/checking to reduce their behaviors down to something that makes sense in the MBTI system.
Yeah, of course. Some people are mentally "different," and even if you could type them it wouldn't do you good.

I can sometimes type people with a glance, and sometimes it takes weeks of close contact.

[Evan]

I think we just have different terms we're using; it seems we agree on most of this stuff.

[Nocapszy]

lol

tertiary...

lol function order.

Hey dudes, why does anyone believe in function order?

This is a serious question.
What has everyone so convinced that the order is Ne Ti Fe Si?
Why does anyone think that?

[Evan]

^I've been arguing along these lines for so long and no one takes me seriously. They're all so attached to the exact system.

I guess I'm somewhat guilty myself.

[Jack Flak]

lol

tertiary...

lol function order.

Hey dudes, why does anyone believe in function order?

This is a serious question.
What has everyone so convinced that the order is Ne Ti Fe Si?
Why does anyone think that?
Because it's easy (though it leads to delusion), and because the kit & kaboodle are based on Jung & Myers' non-collaborative mess of a system.

[Nocapszy]

Id prefer if someone who didn't agree with me responded...
I ask again -- why do you chumps think there's fixed predictable position for the non-dominant following functions?

[mlittrell]

The orientation of functions make all the difference. If orientation didn't matter, I might be very much like an ISTJ. An ISTJ has the same functions but opposite orientation. It works like I said a few posts ago. The first two functions are your most used, they are like two scholars speaking different languages, but both very wise. The tertiary serves as a translator between the two, and the shadow determines how well the tertiary can do so. Dissonance mentioned before:

I do tend to be much more consciously aware of true/false stuff than good/bad stuff, and I pretty much never debate ethics, except to point out inconsistencies in people's views. I would say this is due to a strengthened tertiary Ti and an underdeveloped Fe.

It's not that your Ti is developed or that your Fe is underdeveloped, it's the fact that your Ti is developed enough for your Fe and Ni to work efficiently together. Orientation makes a huge difference in functions. You develop your functions in order from the dominant all the way down to the shadow. What ideas did you have about function orientation? I may be horribly off for all I know.

[Evan]

Why would Fe need to take precedence over Ti in an INFJ? Basically, if you're an Ni dominant, there are two options -- Thinking extroverted and Feeling introverted or Thinking introverted and Feeling extroverted. If you're Ti/Fe, you're INFJ, if you're Te/Fi, you're INTJ. No reason they have to be in any specific order in your consciousness. Can you think of one?

Essentially, having a dominant function makes sense. Specific order for the middle two I can't think of a reason for. It also makes sense that the opposite of the dominant would be most difficult to develop, so we can call it inferior.

[mlittrell]

If there is no orientation of the functions, then what is the point of functions at all? The functions without orientation is pointless. Each individual function isn't good at explaining anything without it's orientation to another function. As far as strengths of each function goes, in my case, I don't need to develop Ne and Fi, they are and always have been developed, but using them together efficiently is a different story. That's when your last two functions make all the difference.

[Evan]

I didn't say there was no orientation. I'm just saying the middle two aren't necessarily oriented in order. Maybe they tend to be, but that's not my claim. There's no reason they HAVE to be.

[mlittrell]

If you HAD to think of a reason they had to be, what would that reason be? It's just the syntax of functions. Sure, I could say my functions are Ne, Te, Fi, Si, but my Fi is always going to be stronger then my Te so why not just put it in order of strength? Sure they don't have to be I suppose but it's just easier to write it that way. What is the point of NOT putting them in order?

[Evan]

The point of not defining a set order is that it glosses over people that happen to develop two introverted functions more strongly than an extroverted one.

1st and 4th make sense. 2nd and 3rd seem interchangeable. It makes sense that on average, an extroverted and an introverted function are going to be the strongest two...but it's not necessarily true.

[mlittrell]

It's a fluid system. Each function is not treated as a single entity. Each function's, well...function, is determined by orientation. In other words, each function cannot work by itself as an individual entity. It MUST work with other functions and how it does so is determined by its orientation.

You may be right, I just think that (as usual lol) we are seeing on different pages.

[Evan]

I agree with much of what you say, I just cannot think of a reason the middle two would necessarily have to be in order for every single person. But I'm just repeating myself now, and I have to go to sleep :)

Goodnight.

[Jack Flak]

It's a fluid system. Each function is not treated as a single entity. Each function's, well...function, is determined by orientation. In other words, each function cannot work by itself as an individual entity. It MUST work with other functions and how it does so is determined by its orientation.

You may be right, I just think that (as usual lol) we are seeing on different pages.
The principle problem in my mind (forgive me if you've "heard" me say it before) is that people can read anything they think or do into whatever supposed function order they want. I could give you a solid case for my being ESFP based on that type's supposed order, but it would be WRONG.

[mlittrell]

Agreed.

I was just stating the fundamentals of functions. It's just basic function notation or "syntax" to say an ENFP is Ne, Fi, Te, Si, not Ne, TE, Fi, Si.

[Jack Flak]

Agreed.

I was just stating the fundamentals of functions. It's just basic function notation or "syntax" to say an ENFP is Ne, Fi, Te, Si, not Ne, TE, Fi, Si.
And it seems true to a degree.

I could compromise and say ENFPs are NeFi dominant, with unspecified sensing/thinking having limited use. Or that myself, an INTP, is TiNe dominant, with unspecified sensing and feeling having limited use.

Which I would consider even more true to a degree.

[mlittrell]

THAT I could see being true to a point. I would still venture to say that most people fit the standard but I could see some exceptions. The Ne, Te, Fi, Si thing...no, I can't see that working very well; it just doesn't make sense. I personally would say that everybody fits their standard functions but that wouldn't be open-minded ;) Though I believe it to be true.

[Evan]

I'm wondering how you guys define dominant. Is it amount of use? Or some other method?

Is the order an order of use? Or an order of how much of an effect on total consciousness each function has? Or...what?

When Jung made profiles for types, he only wrote of these ones:
Extroverted Thinkers (ETJ)
Extroverted Feelers (EFJ)
Extroverted Intuitors (ENP)
Extroverted Sensors (ESP)
Introverted Thinkers (ITP)
Introverted Feelers (IFP)
Introverted Intuitors (INJ)
Introverted Sensors (ISJ)

There were only 8 types. Myers and Briggs had their own interpretation.

And I don't know who came in and introduced function order, but I'd rather not blindly follow them. Whoever they were, it made sense that the opposite function would be the inferior. But why the order of the middle two? Because it looks more symmetrical?

[Jack Flak]

I'm wondering how you guys define dominant. Is it amount of use? Or some other method?

Is the order an order of use? Or an order of how much of an effect on total consciousness each function has? Or...what?
For the purposes of this thread, I define dominant as preferred for use and areas of greatest skill and confidence.

[Evan]

So it's impossible that someone would be Ni dominant and prefer Ti for use after Ni? It's impossible that they could have greater skill and confidence with Ti than Fe?

Yes, the person would be an extreme introvert. Yes, they would still approach the world with Fe. But couldn't they Ni+Ti first before Fe-ing?

[Jack Flak]

So it's impossible that someone would be Ni dominant and prefer Ti for use after Ni? It's impossible that they could have greater skill and confidence with Ti than Fe?

Yes, the person would be an extreme introvert. Yes, they would still approach the world with Fe. But couldn't they Ni+Ti first before Fe-ing?
I would say, according to most theories, and a little thinking on my part, that it's most likely misinterpretation of Te as Ti. For the purposes of this thread...

[Eric B]

Again, what I've found, is that the "order" is not necessarily strength, but rather the roles (archetypes) the functions play. So one may appear to prefer NiTi, by their strength, and the Ti may actually be used more than Fe, but the Ti will still play the "relief" role, while the Fe will still play the "parent" role. What this means, is that you will probably be very much into "relief" activities, such as hobbies, etc. using that function, perhaps as much as an NeTi or SeTi, but I imagine in a less serious way than they. It's their "lead" or "supporting", while it's still your "relief".

For me, Si is "relief", and in the proper place; hence; I'm very nostalgic. All the SJ's around me, are more serious, and into "rules" and such, with the function. Ne is then less seriously used, for them. Fi and Te for me have moved up above Fe and the others, so that would explain why some people have thought me to be an ENFP. But the role they actually play in my life is rather negative, and I've found it hard to tap into the more positive aspect of them (organizing for efficiency sucessfully. Knowing "what's important for myself" in a more systematic way, etc). They overdeveloped, I would say, largely in defense in the dysfunctional, largely STJ environment I grew up in, plus some other factors.

In fact, most INTP's who take the CP test, Fi winds up above Fe, which in many of them, is as low as it can get. It is still an "aspirational" function for them, yet it has not developed yet, however, life has probably led to Fi developing first, since that would tie in with basic wants and needs.

[Evan]

Meh. I'm gonna stop after this post, because this is pointless.

Listen, I know the difference between Te and Ti and I can certainly say my thinking is pointed in and my feeling pointed out. I can also say with certainty that I'm much more comfortable with thinking than feeling (I could go into psychological reasons that I'd be different from the average member of my type in that sense).

I've also met INTJs that are Ni>Fi>Te and even ENFPs that are Ne>Te>Fi. I think it's quite possible, I just doubt that the person would be healthy... That's another argument altogether.

[sleepless]

Every function should check every other one, honestly.

I think the reason we're disagreeing at all is that we understand the functions differently. I've done a ton of work over the last few months trying to figure out a computer science-ey model of how these functions would interact (I'm pretty obsessed with programming). Plus, I talked to BW on AIM for hours and hours (and nocapszy too) until my model made complete sense to me and included every single possible cognitive behavior. (Behavior is a key word, not motivation.)

On top of that, I'm probably much more T than you are and much less F. Even within type, there is room for variation.

Seems like I forgot to answer to this...

But perhaps we were done with our discussion. I can only say that I agree that we understand the functions differently. I think I see what you mean with all functions being used all the time, it's true in a way, but I think the more common understanding of the functions as being used more exclusively is also true, on another level.

A "computer science-ey model on how the functions would interact"? Would that be possible? :shock: Aren't the functions way to abstract for that?

On your discussion with mlittrell, I just have to ask (again) about the Ni-Ti thing. I mean, the simple reason for why Ni-Fe should be preferable to Ni-Ti is that Fe is extraverted, thus it can interact with Ni in a way that Ti cannot. Can two introverted functions actually "interact" at all? Don't they just sort of block each other? Well, I think I'm just repeating what I said before, but... I just can't see how they could work together in a positive way. With that model you've been working on, what would you say about this?

(Edit: Whoa, when I started writing this, there was 4-5 posts less to deal with)

[Eric B]

Meh. I'm gonna stop after this post, because this is pointless.

Listen, I know the difference between Te and Ti and I can certainly say my thinking is pointed in and my feeling pointed out. I can also say with certainty that I'm much more comfortable with thinking than feeling (I could go into psychological reasons that I'd be different from the average member of my type in that sense).

I've also met INTJs that are Ni>Fi>Te and even ENFPs that are Ne>Te>Fi. I think it's quite possible, I just doubt that the person would be healthy... That's another argument altogether.
Yes, they might not be healthy, because of things being out of order. But ask those people which roles those functions play in their life. (though it will not stand out as much as a shadow function moving up into the primary range).

Also, I should point out, that one type expert has pointed out that the "relief" is also known as the "inflated" function, meaning that it does appear to become much stronger than it's supposed to be. So ENFP's are described as "out Te-ing Te preferrers" at times. Likewise, I can get lost in memories much more than many SJs (and they'll even criticize me for that sometimes), but again, this is basically "relief", and not usually their serious use of it. Meanwhile, my ISTJ parents would be heavy on the Fi a lot of times.

[Evan]

Seems like I forgot to answer to this...

But perhaps we were done with our discussion. I can only say that I agree that we understand the functions differently. I think I see what you mean with all functions being used all the time, it's true in a way, but I think the more common understanding of the functions as being used more exclusively is also true, on another level.

A "computer science-ey model on how the functions would interact"? Would that be possible? :shock: Aren't the functions way to abstract for that?

The functions should not be abstract at all. They need to be concretely defined. We can then build a model of how they interact, and that interaction would create the complexity.

Just to say, my major in school is all about the mind and modeling it on computers. This is just the way I think; I'm a compsci nerd. If I can't think of something in a computer function-ey way, it doesn't make any sense to me.

I mean, the simple reason for why Ni-Fe should be preferable to Ni-Ti is that Fe is extraverted

This I agree with. It is preferable in that sense. That doesn't mean everyone uses it in a preferable way.

thus it can interact with Ni in a way that Ti cannot. Can two introverted functions actually "interact" at all? Don't they just sort of block each other?

That part I disagree with. Ni is depth based and internal, so it goes deep into one idea at at time. Fe would mess up Ni's path just as much as Ti, as it's concerned with implementation/the external world -- it can interrupt Ni's internal path if something is "bad" according to the external standard (the premises readily available in the environment). Although, for INJs, the Ni has the reigns. Ni will pretty much go about what it's doing and each time it finishes one idea in depth, it will check it with Fe to see if that idea is "good" according to the external standard.

Ni can use Ti in pretty much the exact same way. It will finish an idea and check with Ti whether or not that is "true" according to the internal standard (the set of premises in the current thought process).

Any judgment function is going to check Ni and take it out of certain paths of thought. Fe will take it out if it's bad according to visible external premises. Ti will take it out if it's false according to the internal premises, as in, the current thought process. (This is why Ti checks more for total consistency than Te, as Ti uses the same premises as the thought process and Te uses the premises of the environment, which may be completely different).

So yeah, I'd even say that Ti works with Ni better than Fe because it at least uses Ni's own ideas as a standard for truth/falsehood. Fe uses a totally different set of ideas, which would probably be even more jarring to Ni.

(Sorry, that was kinda all over the place.)

[Evan]

If you want to look at it that way, just imagine someone using their "relief function" unhealthily often. It's the same thing.

[Jack Flak]

If you want to look at it that way, just imagine someone using their "relief function" unhealthily often. It's the same thing.
Yeah, tell me about it.

[sleepless]

Uh, sorry, I deleted my message when I saw you had posted... :huh:

I will think of it, thanks.

[cascademn]

I don't know about this. Is this how you experience it, or is it just an idea? I definitely don't experience it like this, rather I think I can identify all the functions being used at a time, if I'm so inclined. If all are always being used, then that must be in very very subtle ways that we cannot observe ourselves, and that would make it useless to talk about functions.

I'm starting to not care for function-speak in general - I don't see it as being terribly beneficial to ones' development to view himself that way - but, since that's what this board is about, I'll continue on w/ those terms.

I do think with healthy individuals, multiple functions will be used at any given moment, and I don't think it's necessarily easy to dissect it at all. I think people who tend to rely on just one function are going to be less balanced, pretty transparent, and dare I say less healthy. But I'm also of the opinion that relying on ones top function or top two functions, and disregarding all others, isn't really a good thing. So I tend to WANT to move into all of the other 6 functions. Will I ever be skilled/competent at all of them? Definitely not. But I don't view them as the enemy, or anything.

I think there is a point in having not more than one basic approach to life (Dominant function, that is), instead of some compromise between two or more. The Ti and Ni approach (for example) collide with each other and doesn't approve of the other. The question then is: Which one do you approve of? What is your approach? If we refuse to choose then we might not get anywhere with anything. One day we try to logically prove something through thorough analysis and argumentation, the next day we see through it all as being completely irrelevant and out of perspective. Mort Belfry, as an INTP you probably don't have to bother with Ni very much. For me, Ni is a holistic function whereas Ti is quite narrow. Your Ti probably works much better.

I don't see that it's necessary that it be a compromise. I think all of the functions can build upon one another.

Certainly one or more function can conflict with one another, in terms of coming to opposing conclusions, but the way I look at it is that I take pieces of all (I guess I may view all 8 functions as 8 different perspectives or priority-systems???), sift through all of them, discard some that just don't jive with my priorities, goals, or the specific situation at hand, take pieces of others and tie those in....

In other words for an INFJ, Ti doesn't HAVE to be the enemy. I guess I've never viewed it as such.

-------

Anyhow, details and practical things, when it comes to large life changes, can stress me and annoy me, so I'll often postpone some of that stuff. (but some details, like budgeting and household chores/etc, I keep on top of very well)

Conflict, being misunderstood, or freaking out about decisions I have made, and their implications (if there are substantial elements of the unknown, or risks involved) can stress me out.

When very stressed or emotionally upset (usually they go hand in hand), I become judgemental (don't typically externalize that, though), don't want to deal with people and am easily annoyed by people (so I tend to avoid them and want to become more hermit-like), my mind spins and I can't stop the cycle of thoughts, I beat myself up a lot, and I guess that's about it. Summary would be that I'm not 'calm' - my internal world is turbulent rather than a still, more rational/reflective surface.

[Jack Flak]

I'm starting to not care for function-speak in general - I don't see it as being terribly beneficial to ones' development to view himself that way - but, since that's what this board is about, I'll continue on w/ those terms.
If only NFs weren't so agreeable.

[Thursday]

i think too much and am always analyzing my surroundings
I am constanly critical

[cascademn]

If only NFs weren't so agreeable.

:rofl1:

Ah, what would ya do without us?

[sidenote: over the weekend I was in the unfortunate (but *quite* amusing) situation where I had to witness an INTP and INTJ get into an intense argument over something ridiculously stupid - just on semantics or some other stupid detail - it just floored me, I'm thinking....what is the big deal, you guys are being so immature!! What a pointless waste of breath! I, of course, helped break it up. They continued fuming inwardly. :laugh:]

[Jack Flak]

[sidenote: over the weekend I was in the unfortunate (but *quite* amusing) situation where I had to witness an INTP and INTJ get into an intense argument over something ridiculously stupid - just on semantics or some other stupid detail - it just floored me, I'm like....what is the big deal, you guys are being so immature!! What a pointless waste of breath! :laugh:]
The worst arguments I've had (over nothing) were between myself and ENTPs.

[Eric B]

If you want to look at it that way, just imagine someone using their "relief function" unhealthily often. It's the same thing.
Well, that's certainly possible. The negative side of the relief function is an "unsettling" or "childish" use, where we use it to distract ourselves or others.

[edcoaching]

I'm going to hold to my position that while T is definitely my 3rd function, I access it through skills and therefore don't really differentiate Te from Ti. It's just something I pull up methods i've learned to employ. Whereas my 4th function Se, external details and the real world, is definitely my nemesis (although i've perfected marking where my car is in big parking lots) I have tons of ways to use Se for fun. Complete shutdown of Ni which is very relaxing.

I can't think of any T things I do for fun. It creeps in as mentioned way above but...

[sleepless]

I'm really getting tired of this. Everyone has their own private understanding of the functions, and discussion seems meaningless.

dissonance,

I'm more confused than ever now. I agree or I disagree, or both. Or I don't care anymore, MBTI suddenly seems to make little sense.


cascademn,

I have always thought of the functions as putting you in different "ego-states", that is, when we are in the grip of a shadow function we feel like "not ourselves". I'm a bit lazy so I'll just quote this:

INFJ Archetypes (http://www.infj.com/BeebeOnINFJs.htm)

Here's a new wrinkle: the first four functions listed above are what Dr. John Beebe calls "ego-syntonic." That means when we access these functions, we are in "synch" with them. They feel comfortable, they come naturally to us, and we feel "normal" when we use them. When we access them, our "ego" says, "Yep, that's me."

What about those last four functions?

Dr. Beebe calls those functions "ego-dystonic." That means those functions do not come as easily or naturally to us, and we do not feel "normal" when we use them -- in fact, we feel like we're alien, not ourselves. When we access them, our ego says, "Who was that? That doesn't feel right. That's not like me!"

As a result, we naturally tend to be more deft and graceful at using our first four functions than our last four functions.

So, if you see it this way, the functions can't "build upon one another" (each of the ego-syntonic functions also play specific roles). If you see it some other way there is no point in discussing it. ><

*sigh* :(

[mlittrell]

lol

functions aren't that hard to understand. as far as ego-states, don't look too much into it.