Communication

[Gen]

How do you know what to communicate?

Surely somethings don't need to be said, right?

Saying somethings that you're thinking could just make everything worse, maybe. Do you think that sometimes you should just keep stuff to yourself to work it out in your own head?

Maybe discussing something small will give it importance that it doesn't deserve. Or would that just mean it is important, whether you want it to be or not.

Thoughts?

[Xander]

Some things are irrelevant, obviously so... delete those as necessary and hit the delete key less and the post button more the closer you get to the core of the subject.

Context would be good.

[Gen]

Some things are irrelevant, obviously so... delete those as necessary and hit the delete key less and the post button more the closer you get to the core of the subject.

Context would be good.

haha, I just tried to delete my post in your blog too :doh:

[Gen]

I hate how you eat apples, it bothers me, as unfair as it is. We've decided to tell eachother when we're unhappy or uncomfortable so I tell you I don't like it. You say, that's ok, I won't eat so many apples. I still think its unfair of me because even I like apples. But you say its up to you to decide to make adjustments. Two days later I see you eating an apple. Now, its not about the apple at all. Now its about trust and I wonder if you ever meant to cut down on your apple intake. Not that I think you should. But you said you would and you didn't. So do you just say what you think I want to hear? Or maybe you're addicted to apples. As if that's possible. But this is annoying because apples are not an issue dammit. I think too much. But if I never brought up the apple issue, it would never have grown into a stupid trust issue. See what I mean? Sometimes, you should just keep your mouth shut right?

[Xander]

haha, I just tried to delete my post in your blog too :doh:
See?

Trying to operate without extroversion is daft... throw some stuff out there and see how it sticks.. the alternative is to be entirely theoretical... that means theoretically you're living but probably still just observing.

[Gen]

See?

Trying to operate without extroversion is daft... throw some stuff out there and see how it sticks.. the alternative is to be entirely theoretical... that means theoretically you're living but probably still just observing.

I like theories. :dry:

[Xander]

I like theories. :dry:
Yeah... I hate them... bleugh... bloomin theories messing up my entirely action based lifestyle...

You've quit the denial, you're less prone to projection... so quit with the avoidance!!!

:duel:

[cafe]

I try not to bring up little annoyances like that myself. If it really, really bothers you you could maybe suggest an alternative way to eat apples or something. Usually if I'm pretty sure it's not him it's me, I try to bite my tongue especially if I know I'm feeling cranky.

[Xander]

I hate how you eat apples, it bothers me, as unfair as it is. We've decided to tell eachother when we're unhappy or uncomfortable so I tell you I don't like it. You say, that's ok, I won't eat so many apples. I still think its unfair of me because even I like apples. But you say its up to you to decide to make adjustments. Two days later I see you eating an apple. Now, its not about the apple at all. Now its about trust and I wonder if you ever meant to cut down on your apple intake. Not that I think you should. But you said you would and you didn't. So do you just say what you think I want to hear? Or maybe you're addicted to apples. As if that's possible. But this is annoying because apples are not an issue dammit. I think too much. But if I never brought up the apple issue, it would never have grown into a stupid trust issue. See what I mean? Sometimes, you should just keep your mouth shut right?
Nope. Just say the WHOLE thing. Don't miss stuff out thinking to "clarify" just real it all off and then discuss.

If I can get an ESTP to stop and listen for a while then it's almost certainly possible :D

[tenINsFJ]

I hate how you eat apples, it bothers me, as unfair as it is. We've decided to tell eachother when we're unhappy or uncomfortable so I tell you I don't like it. You say, that's ok, I won't eat so many apples. I still think its unfair of me because even I like apples. But you say its up to you to decide to make adjustments. Two days later I see you eating an apple. Now, its not about the apple at all. Now its about trust and I wonder if you ever meant to cut down on your apple intake. Not that I think you should. But you said you would and you didn't. So do you just say what you think I want to hear? Or maybe you're addicted to apples. As if that's possible. But this is annoying because apples are not an issue dammit. I think too much. But if I never brought up the apple issue, it would never have grown into a stupid trust issue. See what I mean? Sometimes, you should just keep your mouth shut right?


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Holy crap that made me laugh really hard!!!!!! Man it's a good thing you aren't dating me cause I'd probably get passive aggressive and do it back to you. Anywooo going back on topic, I'd say Yes, there are certain things that shouldn't be said. Things that aren't a big deal, yet would stir up a lot argument and drama or hurt someone's feelings definitely should not be mentioned. Generally I'd say people don't like to be criticized, especially if it's something really personal. So going by that, I definitely would not mention anything or critique someone unless I knew it was something I couldn't handle after marriage.

Your apple story, I can sort of relate to. Had a GF who chewed with her mouth open and made food chomping sounds. EXTREMELY RUDE and irritating in my book, and drove me up the wall. After a year and a half, when we were getting rather serious, I pretty much told her to quit cause it was the most annoying thing I had EVER heard, and if our relationship ever progressed into anything more meaningful, I'd drop it in a heartbeat cause I wouldn't listen to someone chomping on food loudly for the rest of my night.

[Beat]

Gen, if you look anything like your avatar I'm superficially attracted to you.

Have I gone on and said too much? I suck at communicating. :(

[Xander]

Wait, you object to the apples but not to the chicken? Srsly?

:D

The thing is that after I've thought about it more it ocurrs to me that it's projection. The whole "overstated" eating thing is just something that you feel awkward about doing so you project that on to him as if he should feel similar... trust me, he doesn't. Some people are more practical about food and less pernickerty. Personally I enjoy being precise and actually enjoy an apple more if I take a knife and neatly cut it up as I go. Does it change the taste of the apple? Probably a little bit but not so much as I'd object to not having the knife (in fact laziness often draws me away from the knife... I'd have to wash the damn thing up later!).

After having had my sisters ex eat the fat from the meat (that's just the fat, no meat) I'm pretty immunised to the more decadent eating style. I choose not to join in but I also choose not to try to "correct" them. Not sure what changed but I quit trying to really alter other people a while back.. probably has something to do with being proven wrong a few times too many. I decided that it's better to keep my mouth shut than wish I had later.

That said if it grinds on you then air it. Don't approach it requiring some change, that's being dictatorial, just discuss it and see how you feel afterwards. If they offer to move then consider the options and if not then you haven't entered into the discussion with any misgivings of them changing (if you do it right). The point is to make the other aware of how you feel and not what you expect, that's their bit.

[Dom]

Gen, if you look anything like your avatar I'm superficially attracted to you.

Have I gone on and said too much? I suck at communicating. :(

And I am feeling superficially smug....

*wanders off to eat an apple*

[Gen]

And I am feeling superficially smug....

*wanders off to eat an apple*

:doh:

[Hmm]

Learn how to love him and don't complain.

[Tallulah]

I agree with cafe. If it's a minor thing, I bite my tongue. Who cares, in the long run?

The last time I told someone about something they did that bugged me, it was when I told my ENFP friend that the smug little dance she did after winning at a Wii game made me want to hit her. :shock: It wasn't so much that she beat me--I can take that, and even be supportive. It was the little song and dance hoohah she'd do. Think Debbie Reynolds' "I told you so" dance on Will & Grace, if you watch the show.

[Lookin4theBestNU]

The only question I would ask myself is if it had potential to become a resentment. If the answer is yes I would open my mouth in a heartbeat. If the answer is no then I would let it slide and live with the minor annoyance.

[Grayscale]

experience, in my opinion.

and in my experience, willingness to work at the relationship from both people will be the primary factor in a successful one, whether that means attempting to communicate important thigns, making compromises, etc.

[Hmm]

The more you love unconditionally, the less things there are that could bother you.

[Decon]

Could someone clarify to me what the OP is asking? I seem to have gotten confused as to what the question was.

[Edahn]

Yo,

I've been thinking about this [s]a lot/[s] too much lately, too. Lets see. So you want to express a feeling (rather than feel guilty for having it) and you want to preserve your relationship and sanity. If you say everything that bother you, you'll end up in an annoying bickering situation that will envelope the relationship. If you're quiet, you will either bottle it up and burst or feel like you're cheating yourself (and burst). Is that basically the issue? (The apples issue introduces a second layer, but I'm hoping I can try and deal with the underlying layer and take care of both. Maybe.)

The truth is, there is no easy formula (and I bet that's what you're looking for). You're going to have to rely on your wisdom to make decision. I'm using wisdom more as a psychological construct rather than a New Age spiritual term that just means: make an honest and objective appraisal of the situation and make a decision that takes into account and balances everyone's competing needs (autonomy, expression, etc). It's probably more of an art than a science.

On the other hand, I have been playing with a few formulas. I wrote some of them out and realized they aren't really logical but practical, and really are based on producing certain outcomes (i.e., a healthy relationship rather than immediate satisfaction):
1. If the person's action doesn't really affect you (like eating apples) you can't really ask the person to change. In these situations, it's really more YOUR issue (and whatever anxiety surfaces when your man eats apples) than his. Take responsibility for your shit and you'll be grateful later that he does the same.
2. In situations where it does affect you, tell him how you feel; don't blame. He'll have to decide whether or not to change.
3. You can still feel annoyed, just think about how and whether or not you want to vocalize it. There's no rule that you have to act right away to expel that feeling. If you can tolerate it for a little while, eventually it'll go away. I like to make jokes out of things, although if you suck at this, you'll just sound passive aggressive, so be careful. The important part is that you don't have to immediate silence those thoughts or discharge them by communicating. Just let them chill and don't panic.

[Dom]

The more you love unconditionally, the less things there are that could bother you.

Not all of us are Jesus...

[Gen]

The only question I would ask myself is if it had potential to become a resentment. If the answer is yes I would open my mouth in a heartbeat. If the answer is no then I would let it slide and live with the minor annoyance.
I think this may be true actually. The only problem is that, thinking in retrospect, I'm not exactly very good at knowing what will become resentment for me. I do think I have a better idea now than I used to, if I look at what past things have done so, though.

On the other hand, I have been playing with a few formulas. I wrote some of them out and realized they aren't really logical but practical, and really are based on producing certain outcomes (i.e., a healthy relationship rather than immediate satisfaction):
I'm so not a logic-only kind of INTP. :) Or you could put it this way: a healthy relationship is logical to strive for.
1. If the person's action doesn't really affect you (like eating apples) you can't really ask the person to change. In these situations, it's really more YOUR issue (and whatever anxiety surfaces when your man eats apples) than his. Take responsibility for your shit and you'll be grateful later that he does the same.
2. In situations where it does affect you, tell him how you feel; don't blame. He'll have to decide whether or not to change.
3. You can still feel annoyed, just think about how and whether or not you want to vocalize it. There's no rule that you have to act right away to expel that feeling. If you can tolerate it for a little while, eventually it'll go away. I like to make jokes out of things, although if you suck at this, you'll just sound passive aggressive, so be careful. The important part is that you don't have to immediate silence those thoughts or discharge them by communicating. Just let them chill and don't panic.

These actually help. I think its true, if it doen't affect me I should just work through it on my own. (Though I bet he would always say that he'd want to know what I was working through in my own head.)

[Gen]

This should be such a huge topic. I wasn't looking only for personal advice (though I appreciate all that I got).

Communication is cited as the number one make or break factor for relationships, whether romantic or not. We all have problems at some point, whether too much said or not enough said, with communication.

Anyone else have thoughts? Stories? Anything?

[Modern Nomad]

How do you know what to communicate?

Surely somethings don't need to be said, right?

Saying somethings that you're thinking could just make everything worse, maybe. Do you think that sometimes you should just keep stuff to yourself to work it out in your own head?

Maybe discussing something small will give it importance that it doesn't deserve. Or would that just mean it is important, whether you want it to be or not.

Thoughts?

i've always been blessed with girls who know how to say whats on their mind. and it makes me communicate with them better because i have to be genuine and think about what to say or do.

sheesh! if girls didn't know how to communicate, man. what the heck would i do??? LOL

[CzeCze]

The last time I told someone about something they did that bugged me, it was when I told my ENFP friend that the smug little dance she did after winning at a Wii game made me want to hit her. :shock: It wasn't so much that she beat me--I can take that, and even be supportive. It was the little song and dance hoohah she'd do. Think Debbie Reynolds' "I told you so" dance on Will & Grace, if you watch the show.

LOL, sounds like me and my brother. He hates shows of my 'ENFP exuberance'. I'm not familiar with the "I told you so" dance, but it is meant to be funny to the audience, at least?

I love talking smack and doing little song and dances (literally and figuratively) after a board game or whatnot. Actually, I'm sure most people on the losing team, hate it. :laugh: It's not really meant in mean-ness or to make others feel bad, when I do it it's light hearted and often tongue-in-cheek and meant to (and does usually) add to the convivial mood (and not just mine! LOL). If someone else did the same to me if I lost, I'd might be simultaneously annoyed (because I lost and I'm a sore loser and they're rubbing it in) but if done well I'd be amused and generally I'm indifferent. I kinda assume people who win will do or say something like a 'victory dance'.

On the flip what makes me want to hit my INTP brother when we play games is his derisive put-downs and his lack of patience when I have questions. His 'exuberance' when he wins and I lose exceeds mine, he gets downright belligerent about it. He's not celebrating that he's won, he's enjoying putting me down for losing and it just seems really rude the way he does it. I really don't think he's joking, whereas I think for me, it's obvious that I am. I bet he thinks the same of my versus his victory dances.

Maybe that's a communication issue? Perception vs. intent?

In answer to Gen's call for 'more examples' I know for me that's the no. 1 argument started about communication. People get so caught up trying to define or defend what someone meant by something that the original 'point' of the conflict gets lost.

I've seen so many never ending arguments or "discussions" go in circles because people lose focus of what they are actually talking about. Or they start with the premise that this person did A, which obviously means B, C, D and they did it for E reason, but they don't tell the other person that.

They just jump internally and launch all their energy and attacks starting from the assumption that the reason someone did something was for 'E reason' and not starting from the fact they did A.

Those kind of conversations/arguments/fights take on a life of their own.

[Xander]

Most communication errors that I have been witness to have been made out of either assumption or manipulation.

I know one couple that will say "no I'm fine with that" till they're blue in the face whilst steaming underneath the surface (I must admit I'm not much help to them as when they argue I'm laughing too much to advise). The problem in their case is that one won't speak his mind because the other is too vulnerable and likely to break down in tears and she's not likely to speak her mind because she's not sure if he'll stay calm or explode and make one of his "decisions" (which usually involves petty revenge and taking a stand ).

Now it's been obvious to me for a long time that they both approach each other trying to construct their sentences so the other doesn't get upset/ annoyed. Now this would be fine if they were trying to soften blows or be a bit diplomatic but most often it's done so that they can steer the other towards a certain frame of mind or line of thinking. Of course when this goes wrong, and if you spend a lot of time with someone these things almost always fall apart, it's backlash is often more severe than the original situation you were avoiding.

Another thing is that one of them refuses to relax because he's supposed to be doing x or acting on y. The reason he feels like this is because he's been told it's what he's "supposed" to do. Now whilst many of these "supposed to" things aren't harmful, constructing the majority of your relationship out of it means you're constantly trying to escape the very prison you're voluntarily inhabiting. You end up with the 'supposed to's versus the 'I want to's and that's not healthy to do.

Basically with communication if you're not relaxing and letting things flow from your mind into the air without sending it through seven layers of constructed filtering then you're not being honest, your not providing them with information, you aren't being helpful your being controlling. If you really get along with someone then why filter? Surely you wouldn't presume to think you are so much more intelligent and so you have to remove information? Surely you wouldn't think that they would just up and leave unless you haven't been truthful from the word go or you one of those tense kinds of people (in which case just treat this as an aim and not a checkpoint, ie point towards it but don't expect to actually get to it for a long while)? So why filter?

Oh, noting I haven't made reference to assumption, if you talk to someone and they give you a response that doesn't seem to fit what you asked then you'd check they heard right wouldn't you?

"I'm Sam who are you?"
"Half past three."

That's basic assumption checking. What about the assumption that the other person has the same priorities as you? The age old presumption of "everyone thinks like I do" never seems to finish either.

See this is where I think most people go wrong, they think that the words coming out of their mouth are the only things they're saying and they end up mixing up messages and not communicating clearly in the first place. Also many people assume that if someone said what they were saying to them that they'd think x. These things are errors that stem from prescriptive teaching and also from the fact that to a certain extent it does work. The problem is that the bit that doesn't work, if left unchecked, will compound until it is a yawning gap in communication.

Basically, speak without expecting a certain result. Don't try to achieve anything with communication except to communicate, exp in relationships, well unless it is in the context of a game or some such that can be easily separated from the general relationship. Ie it's fine to be suggestive when you're trying to entice them but it's really irritating if you try to subtley hint what you want for breakfast.. just say it. Also speak your mind, hence why I said tell him EVERYTHING. Few people are truly dumb and if you tell them your thought process then they'll see how you figure it's reasonable without you having to validate your conclusion. Same as math at school, show your working out so they know how you got to the answer.

Oh and I'm realising the whole problem of advising this is an almost persuasive tone but I really do expect most people to discard this thinking without trying or to treat it as some kind of hippy unachievable theory... All I'm thinking is that one person may just get it... that'd be nice.

[Tallulah]

LOL, sounds like me and my brother. He hates shows of my 'ENFP exuberance'. I'm not familiar with the "I told you so" dance, but it is meant to be funny to the audience, at least?

I love talking smack and doing little song and dances (literally and figuratively) after a board game or whatnot. Actually, I'm sure most people on the losing team, hate it. :laugh: It's not really meant in mean-ness or to make others feel bad, when I do it it's light hearted and often tongue-in-cheek and meant to (and does usually) add to the convivial mood (and not just mine! LOL). If someone else did the same to me if I lost, I'd might be simultaneously annoyed (because I lost and I'm a sore loser and they're rubbing it in) but if done well I'd be amused and generally I'm indifferent. I kinda assume people who win will do or say something like a 'victory dance'.

Hee, yeah, it's a little of both, I guess. I think she thinks she's being cute, but at the same time, even she admits that her competitiveness can get out of control, and that her family won't even play games with her anymore because of the way she reacts. She does it in a lighthearted way, but you can tell she's serious underneath--there's kind of a flashing, victorious look in her eyes. :D

On the flip what makes me want to hit my INTP brother when we play games is his derisive put-downs and his lack of patience when I have questions. His 'exuberance' when he wins and I lose exceeds mine, he gets downright belligerent about it. He's not celebrating that he's won, he's enjoying putting me down for losing and it just seems really rude the way he does it. I really don't think he's joking, whereas I think for me, it's obvious that I am. I bet he thinks the same of my versus his victory dances.

Maybe that's a communication issue? Perception vs. intent?


I was probably more obnoxious when I was younger, playing games. I do have a competitive streak, which is why I don't play games with other people very often. I can take losing, but I can't take the smack-talking. I'm one of the most even-keeled, laidback people ever, and it takes a lot to make me outright angry, but if you start talking smack to me and rubbing it in my face that I lost, it seriously makes me want to throw things. And I have done it in the past. :doh: (The Taboo Incident of the Late Nineties, Wherein the Buzzer Went Flying After Dude Kept Obnoxiously Buzzing It Directly Into My Ear comes to mind.) I don't mind a little jokey smack-talking, but a victory dance in my face just annoys the everloving crap out of me, no matter how much I normally love you as a friend.

I wouldn't berate someone after I'd won, though. I might go, "Yay, I won!" but I don't generally belabor the point. It does sound like there's a good chance you and your brother are reacting negatively to each others' styles of competing, and there's also the whole thing of not really filtering/censoring as much for siblings as you would for friends.

Anyway, that's the kind of communication situation I couldn't possibly keep inside. Most stuff, I let roll.

[Hmm]

Another thing is that one of them refuses to relax because he's supposed to be doing x or acting on y. The reason he feels like this is because he's been told it's what he's "supposed" to do. Now whilst many of these "supposed to" things aren't harmful, constructing the majority of your relationship out of it means you're constantly trying to escape the very prison you're voluntarily inhabiting. You end up with the 'supposed to's versus the 'I want to's and that's not healthy to do.

Conventional relationships are not "prisons", they're more like gardens. But yeah, anyone who thinks of them as a prison will surely have problems.

[Hmm]

Not all of us are Jesus...

Ahhh. :) On the contrary many disagreements come up because both people think they are Jesus and this is where the struggle comes because only one of them can be.

But then again, I kinda suck at communication.

[Jeffster]

Communication with me is not difficult. You just gotta TELL ME what's up. I have zero mind-reading abilities. That doesn't mean it always has to be words. I've been kicked in the groin before, and I got that message loud and clear. I will take a blow to the jewels over her walking away and not telling me what's wrong any day. But be straight with me, and we will always be cool, one way or another. The more mystery you cloud things in, the more likely I am to be looking for sunshine somewhere else.

[Hmm]

Jeffster I am communicating to you right now that your avatar is really cute. I love white fluffy animals.

[substitute]

For me, everything ought to be communicated, but words aren't the only way to do it. The way I see it, it's up to everyone to be on the lookout for what people are trying to communicate, especially without words, but ultimately the onus is on the person who wants to be understood to make themselves so.

I think this principle is largely behind the Ne primary chameleon thing... it's imperative that i communicate this to you, so I'll learn to speak as many social languages as possible to ensure I can use the right one with you.

[Hmm]

I don't believe that every thought you have or emotion you feel has to be communicated.

[substitute]

I don't believe that every thought you have or emotion you feel has to be communicated.

sorry, I wrote that quickly whilst chopping courgettes lol

I meant that everything that you want the other person to know or do. Like if you want me to stop using deadpan humour because you don't know whether I'm serious or not and it leaves you feeling insecure, I need to be told that somehow. Pretending to find it funny and not mind and then months later blowing up at me for doing it and upsetting you 'all this time' is not acceptable. There are many ways to tell me from showing your true feeling rather than pretending to laugh to explicitly and verbally telling me you don't appreciate it. But I should be told, to be fair on us both, and it is your responsibility to tell me, not mine to psychically guess it.

I mean hypothetical 'you', obviously :)

[Jeffster]

I love white fluffy animals.

Then you're in good shape with me, avatar or not. :cool:

[Dom]

For me, everything ought to be communicated, but words aren't the only way to do it. The way I see it, it's up to everyone to be on the lookout for what people are trying to communicate, especially without words, but ultimately the onus is on the person who wants to be understood to make themselves so.

I think this principle is largely behind the Ne primary chameleon thing... it's imperative that i communicate this to you, so I'll learn to speak as many social languages as possible to ensure I can use the right one with you.

Yeah you don't have to use owrds but you do need to know that the message is in a form the other person is capable of hearing.. :D

[Sitara]

Most communication errors that I have been witness to have been made out of either assumption or manipulation...

...All I'm thinking is that one person may just get it... that'd be nice.

Very good posts by Edahn and Xander. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Xander]

Conventional relationships are not "prisons", they're more like gardens. But yeah, anyone who thinks of them as a prison will surely have problems.
Gardens can have walls.. insurmountable walls. Whether the inerior of your prison is green or grey it still keeps you from the freedom you deserve.

[Mighty Mouse]

I always enjoy the topic of communication and trying to learn more in order to do it better. I always wondered why it wasn't something that was taught more intentionally as we grew up.

My take on communication especially with a partner is to be aware of what it is you want to convey and why. Sometimes we just want to connect and the actual content is irrelevant. Sometimes we are angry and we want to vent and so the content is relevant but the avenue of expression may not be. And the list can go on.

Communication is about knowing yourself, understanding the other person, and trying to connect the two.

Blame, resentment, manipulation, degradation our all personal issues we should deal with before opening our mouths...

[Hmm]

Gardens can have walls.. insurmountable walls. Whether the inerior of your prison is green or grey it still keeps you from the freedom you deserve.

See, I think we might have different perceptions/perspectives on that.

[Xander]

See, I think we might have different perceptions/perspectives on that.
The point being that no matter how you define any parameters, if they are not applied with your consent then they are constraints. In a relationship the communication is there to allow for growth. With no growth you can just sit there rocking back and forth repeating "it's all good" but that just don't make it so.