Are you born with it?

[SparklingImpediments]

I've discussed this with many of my friends, and I've come to the conclusion that one's personality type is hereditary. For example I believe I get the NF from my mother, and P from my father, and E from my grandfather. I've found predominantly observant families do not have Intuitive children, and vice versa. What do you think?

[phoenix13]

I think it's maybelline.

I don't know if it's hereditary, but to a certain extent it's probably fixed (ie, I'll be ENFP for the rest of my life). Also, P and E aren't traits/functions in themselves. P means your perception function (N or S) is extroverted. E means your dominant function (N, S, T, or F) is extroverted.

Btw, according to Myers Briggs theory, there are 8 cognitive functions:
Introverted Sensing, extroverted sensing,
introverted and extroverted intuition,
introverted and extroverted thinking,
introverted and extroverted feeling.

The four letter code indicates which functions one has and what order they're in (dominant, auxiliary, tertiary, inferior). The P/J in particular was invented by MyersBriggs for this purpose. Check it out: Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes (http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/)

[entropie]

This idea came to my mind aswell and I am still not sure, if you are born with it or not.

My mum is iSfJ , my dad is iStP. I was raised by my grandpa until the age of 10, who is iNTp.

I tend to go with the idea that you are born with personality.

[SparklingImpediments]

I too think it's genetic... something actually encoded in our DNA... like eye, hair, and skin colour.

Side note: My dad's an ISTP, too. ;P

[SparklingImpediments]

I think it's maybelline.

I don't know if it's hereditary, but to a certain extent it's probably fixed (ie, I'll be ENFP for the rest of my life). Also, P and E aren't traits/functions in themselves. P means your perception function (N or S) is extroverted. E means your dominant function (N, S, T, or F) is extroverted.

Btw, according to Myers Briggs theory, there are only 8 cognitive functions:
Introverted Sensing, extroverted sensing,
introverted and extroverted intuition,
introverted and extroverted thinking,
introverted and extroverted feeling.

Check it out: Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes (http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/)

Maybe...

[phoenix13]

I too think it's genetic... something actually encoded in our DNA... like eye, hair, and skin colour.

Side note: My dad's an ISTP, too. ;P

I doubt it's as simple as that (like the existence of a thinker/feeler allele located on chromosome 13.) Is that what you meant? Do you think it's a purely genetic phenomenon?

[evan]

I've discussed this with many of my friends, and I've come to the conclusion that one's personality type is hereditary. For example I believe I get the NF from my mother, and P from my father, and E from my grandfather. I've found predominantly observant families do not have Intuitive children, and vice versa. What do you think?

I think that's a gross oversimplification. Not even close to true.

There are certainly nurture factors.

[Haphazard]

I began showing signs of being INTJ-like after a head injury as a child.

So no, I don't think it's hereditary...

[entropie]

I think that's a gross oversimplification. Not even close to true.

There are certainly nurture factors.

And where are they for a N in S-world ?

What does a madman keep up his faith, through aeons of time and through incountable proofs of being wrong ?

[The_Liquid_Laser]

There may be a genetic component, but I don't think it's purely genetic. I have a big family and our types are all over the place.

[phoenix13]

ugh... I can't even begin to think of how complex that would be genetically. Someone should do brain scans of, say, N vs. S participants solving specialized tasks. Then we might get some significant differences and begin from there... The idea is to get this personality theory to manifest itself physiologically somehow and work our way down to genes. I can see it now: ENTP transgenic mouse models with wildtype controls, and Oberon Gene knockouts (in honor of Oberon who is an ENTP mouse). Scientists, fill in the detail, 'cause I'm going to bed... for real this time.

[Jack Flak]

RE: OP: There is as yet insufficient data for meaningful answer. Maybe.

[Xander]

ISFJ + ENTJ = INTP?

Wha? :confused:

As with most psychology I have come to the conclusion that it's all nurture but that the core of it is formed before you can interact with the environment properly and so ends up being a random starting point. But that's just a theory..

[Jennifer]

I have nothing really in common with my parents or sister or grandparents in terms of personality.

I don't think you can track specific functions genetically, except for perhaps I/E (since it involves neurobiology). The others are not correlated directly to particular biological structures / entities.

[edcoaching]

ugh... I can't even begin to think of how complex that would be genetically. Someone should do brain scans of, say, N vs. S participants solving specialized tasks. Then we might get some significant differences and begin from there... The idea is to get this personality theory to manifest itself physiologically somehow and work our way down to genes. I can see it now: ENTP transgenic mouse models with wildtype controls, and Oberon Gene knockouts (in honor of Oberon who is an ENTP mouse). Scientists, fill in the detail, 'cause I'm going to bed... for real this time.

It's actually underway by a colleague of mine at UCLA and smaller studies have all shown differences in brain patterns when people with different preferences perform the same tasks. The evidence is in and I'll be posting an entry on it shortly.

The research done so far shows that type is innate; culture, family, workplace, environment influence our expression. That's why typing others is so difficult. We have a type but we learn behaviors (or end up OCD or psychotic or a robot or somehow dysfunctional or ostracized...)

[phoenix13]

It's actually underway by a colleague of mine at UCLA and smaller studies have all shown differences in brain patterns when people with different preferences perform the same tasks. The evidence is in and I'll be posting an entry on it shortly.

The research done so far shows that type is innate; culture, family, workplace, environment influence our expression. That's why typing others is so difficult. We have a type but we learn behaviors (or end up OCD or psychotic or a robot or somehow dysfunctional or ostracized...)

SCORE! So, are you putting me in the paper or what?

[Gabe]

It's actually underway by a colleague of mine at UCLA and smaller studies have all shown differences in brain patterns when people with different preferences perform the same tasks. The evidence is in and I'll be posting an entry on it shortly.

The research done so far shows that type is innate; culture, family, workplace, environment influence our expression. That's why typing others is so difficult. We have a type but we learn behaviors (or end up OCD or psychotic or a robot or somehow dysfunctional or ostracized...)

OMG, that is incredibly interesting. When will Nardi be publishing this stuff?

Caveat from opposing Ni: I reaaallly hope people are ready for this stuff; after hearing some of that 'gay gene' speculation, I wonder if people are ready for this kind of knowledge. You can't change someone's preferences through brain surgery or drugs, can you (but isn't that what Adderal already does?!! It screws your preffered perception function).

[animenagai]

well i don't think that we should say that just because our parents are nothing like us, MBTI is not hereditary. i can't remember the terms used in genetics, can't remember high school shit too much but say XX and Xx = S and xx = N, if both my folks were Xx's, they'll be S's, yet i could still be an N. i wish i remembered something in biology, it wiuld be so much simpler.

personally, i think some things about MBTI are just in your genes, whereas others are not. N and S could be one for example. my baby sister never really questioned anything as a child, i did. i don't think we were raised too differently. something like P vs J could be more nurture.

[edcoaching]

OMG, that is incredibly interesting. When will Nardi be publishing this stuff?

Caveat from opposing Ni: I reaaallly hope people are ready for this stuff; after hearing some of that 'gay gene' speculation, I wonder if people are ready for this kind of knowledge. You can't change someone's preferences through brain surgery or drugs, can you (but isn't that what Adderal already does?!! It screws your preffered perception function).

He published a sample in the current Bulletin of Psychological Type.

Yeah, I'm not sure how he'll handle general dissemination of the knowledge but he's pretty sensitive. And all kinds of drugs alter behaviors that are naturally driven by our preferences. Ritalin...

[INTJMom]

I've discussed this with many of my friends, and I've come to the conclusion that one's personality type is hereditary. For example I believe I get the NF from my mother, and P from my father, and E from my grandfather. I've found predominantly observant families do not have Intuitive children, and vice versa. What do you think?
Hi. :hi: Welcome to the forum.

I'm afraid I can't agree with you.
While I do believe MB type is heavily hereditary, I don't believe it is entirely so.

My parents are both S types, yet my sister and I are both N types.

[edcoaching]

Innateness and heredity can be two different things. For example, some of our characteristics/problems/strengths develop within the womb. I don't know of any studies on dominant/recessive genes and type, etc. What is known is that the characteristics are present from birth...

[evan]

well i don't think that we should say that just because our parents are nothing like us, MBTI is not hereditary. i can't remember the terms used in genetics, can't remember high school shit too much but say XX and Xx = S and xx = N, if both my folks were Xx's, they'll be S's, yet i could still be an N.

Good point. I don't necessarily think it's as simple as one gene, but I'm sure there is a genetic predisposition towards favoring abstract vs. concrete thought. It seems that nurture could potentially bring this out even against the predisposition, but it would make sense that the predisposition would be there.

[SparklingImpediments]

I began showing signs of being INTJ-like after a head injury as a child.

So no, I don't think it's hereditary...

What do you believe you were before your injury?

[SparklingImpediments]

And where are they for a N in S-world ?

What does a madman keep up his faith, through aeons of time and through incountable proofs of being wrong ?

Ignorance is bliss... =)

[SparklingImpediments]

RE: OP: There is as yet insufficient data for meaningful answer. Maybe.

A very honest answer. :)

[SparklingImpediments]

It's actually underway by a colleague of mine at UCLA and smaller studies have all shown differences in brain patterns when people with different preferences perform the same tasks. The evidence is in and I'll be posting an entry on it shortly.

The research done so far shows that type is innate; culture, family, workplace, environment influence our expression. That's why typing others is so difficult. We have a type but we learn behaviors (or end up OCD or psychotic or a robot or somehow dysfunctional or ostracized...)

Type vs. behaviour... that makes sense... thank you so much for the feedback! :cool:

[SparklingImpediments]

well i don't think that we should say that just because our parents are nothing like us, MBTI is not hereditary. i can't remember the terms used in genetics, can't remember high school shit too much but say XX and Xx = S and xx = N, if both my folks were Xx's, they'll be S's, yet i could still be an N. i wish i remembered something in biology, it wiuld be so much simpler.

personally, i think some things about MBTI are just in your genes, whereas others are not. N and S could be one for example. my baby sister never really questioned anything as a child, i did. i don't think we were raised too differently. something like P vs J could be more nurture.


You're talking about dominant/recessive genes, like in the Punnett square, right? Technically speaking, the term "recessive gene" is inexact because the gene isn't recessive but rather the phenotype (or trait). Also the concepts of recessiveness and dominance were developed before a molecular understanding of DNA and before molecular biology, thus mapping many newer concepts to "dominant" or "recessive" phenotypes is tricky. Many traits originally thought to be recessive have mild forms or biochemical abnormalities that come up from the presence of the one copy of the allele. This implies that the dominant phenotype is dependent upon having two dominant alleles, and that the presence of one dominant and one recessive allele creates some blending of both dominant and recessive traits.
On that note, however... I think it plausible that two Ss could have an N child b/c of the N potentially being recessive in both.
I think nurture shapes a lot still, for sure, but there is something to be said about your core being in nature.

[animenagai]

You're talking about dominant/recessive genes, like in the Punnett square, right? Technically speaking, the term "recessive gene" is inexact because the gene isn't recessive but rather the phenotype (or trait). Also the concepts of recessiveness and dominance were developed before a molecular understanding of DNA and before molecular biology, thus mapping many newer concepts to "dominant" or "recessive" phenotypes is tricky. Many traits originally thought to be recessive have mild forms or biochemical abnormalities that come up from the presence of the one copy of the allele. This implies that the dominant phenotype is dependent upon having two dominant alleles, and that the presence of one dominant and one recessive allele creates some blending of both dominant and recessive traits.
On that note, however... I think it plausible that two Ss could have an N child b/c of the N potentially being recessive in both.
I think nurture shapes a lot still, for sure, but there is something to be said about your core being in nature.

thanks for shaping that up. silly biology teachers did me no good :D. yeah, either way though, we cannot say that types aren't hereditary based on such shallow judgment.

[INTJMom]

thanks for shaping that up. silly biology teachers did me no good :D. yeah, either way though, we cannot say that types aren't hereditary based on such shallow judgment.
They are probably somewhat hereditary, but not entirely so.
There are other factors that come into play.

[Ilah]

My parents were both S, but my brother and I are both N. We are the only two children. I only knew one of my grandparents though, so it is a possibility that there is some kind of recessive thing going on.

I agree with entropie's position on nurture. There was no nurture for my N side. I think if was much more of an anti-nurture, in other words nurture designed to make me be more S, less N.

This lack of support for my N-ness is a reason I lean heavily to the born with in side. Why would I stick with a personal type despite all the negative reinforcement if it wasn't hard wired in my brain?

Ilah


You're talking about dominant/recessive genes, like in the Punnett square, right? Technically speaking, the term "recessive gene" is inexact because the gene isn't recessive but rather the phenotype (or trait). Also the concepts of recessiveness and dominance were developed before a molecular understanding of DNA and before molecular biology, thus mapping many newer concepts to "dominant" or "recessive" phenotypes is tricky. Many traits originally thought to be recessive have mild forms or biochemical abnormalities that come up from the presence of the one copy of the allele. This implies that the dominant phenotype is dependent upon having two dominant alleles, and that the presence of one dominant and one recessive allele creates some blending of both dominant and recessive traits.
On that note, however... I think it plausible that two Ss could have an N child b/c of the N potentially being recessive in both.
I think nurture shapes a lot still, for sure, but there is something to be said about your core being in nature.

[Lexlike]

my father is an ENTP , and my mother is a sensitive ISFJ. But i guess i m more like my grandfather of father side who is also INTP.My younger brother is an ISTJ or a shy ESTJ... so i basically thinks its a mix of genetics and nurture

[arcticangel02]

Father: ESTJ (Te Si)
Mother: ISFP (Fi Se)
Me: ENFP (Ne Fi)
Brother: INFP (Fi Ne)
Sister: ESFP (Se Fi)

The only corellation I can see is that we all use Fi (/Te). Apart from that, we're a pretty good mix of N/S functions. I suppose you could use the genetic argument in this situation, as none of the kids have a function that neither of the parents do, but it doesn't seem like a particularly clear thing.

[Kristiana]

I've discussed this with many of my friends, and I've come to the conclusion that one's personality type is hereditary. For example I believe I get the NF from my mother, and P from my father, and E from my grandfather. I've found predominantly observant families do not have Intuitive children, and vice versa. What do you think?

I'm very much N, as is my brother, yet both my parents are very much S. I agree with Ilah's theory about N possibly being recessively heritable.

Nurture did not work to make me more N, either.

Ah who knows, or maybe I was switched at birth. :D

[Kristiana]

Father: ESTJ (Te Si)
Mother: ISFP (Fi Se)
Me: ENFP (Ne Fi)
Brother: INFP (Fi Ne)
Sister: ESFP (Se Fi)

The only corellation I can see is that we all use Fi (/Te). Apart from that, we're a pretty good mix of N/S functions. I suppose you could use the genetic argument in this situation, as none of the kids have a function that neither of the parents do, but it doesn't seem like a particularly clear thing.

Hey, my brother is INFP and sister is ESFP, too!

My parents are ESFJ (mom) and ISTJ (dad).

[phoenix13]

I'm very much N, as is my brother, yet both my parents are very much S. I agree with Ilah's theory about N possibly being recessively heritable.

Nurture did not work to make me more N, either.

Ah who knows, or maybe I was switched at birth. :D

N recessively heritable? Like blue eyes? Like there's a perception gene with an S allele and an N allele (which we'll designate "s"), and if you cross 2 Ss parents you have a 25% chance of having an ss and thus intuitive child? Are you saying this because 25% of the American population is supposedly N?

I do think that it's partly genetic, as in, we're born with some aspect of it, or born with some built-in probability (predisposition) of being one or the other. And maybe our environment tips the scale to some degree. However, I highly highly doubt that this observational theory will neatly show up in our genes the way eye color does. Don't forget that the letters aren't functions in themselves.

EDIT: Hey, doesn't Captain Chick study genetics? Where is she? We need an expert!

[CaptainChick]

I've discussed this with many of my friends, and I've come to the conclusion that one's personality type is hereditary. For example I believe I get the NF from my mother, and P from my father, and E from my grandfather. I've found predominantly observant families do not have Intuitive children, and vice versa. What do you think?
I absolutely think one's personality is primarily genetically based/founded with maybe several to many environmental influencing contributing factors.

My father was a hardcore INTP, and my mother is a hardcore ESF.

I think being the youngest of three daughters also contributed to my heightened Ne, Fi and P-ishness.

Regardless, since age five, it has been pretty clear that I have been an ENFP.

[Jack Flak]

Maybe it's Maybelline.

My analysis of the meager data: It seems like a lot of people are arguing against innate type encoding because their parents are so different. I've never had any reason to think there would be a connection. Type could be innate, and I wouldn't think it has much to do with what types your parents are.

[CaptainChick]

N recessively heritable? Like blue eyes? Like there's a perception gene with an S allele and an N allele (which we'll designate "s"), and if you cross 2 Ss parents you have a 25% chance of having an ss and thus intuitive child? Are you saying this because 25% of the American population is supposedly N?

I do think that it's partly genetic, as in, we're born with some aspect of it, or born with some built-in probability (predisposition) of being one or the other. And maybe our environment tips the scale to some degree. However, I highly highly doubt that this observational theory will neatly show up in our genes the way eye color does. Don't forget that the letters aren't functions in themselves.

EDIT: Hey, doesn't Captain Chick study genetics? Where is she? We need an expert!

Lol, yes, I'm a recently ex-bio major of two years and, alas, genetics is most definitely NOT my forte, but I would definitely say with some confidence, that there is NO N OR S GENE, lol!!!

There is, however, plenty of studies on the heritability of intelligence.

And, you must not forget that you inherit ALL OF YOUR GENES from your parents, and that your parents inherited ALL OF THEIR GENES from their parents, ad infinitum, (excluding genetic mutations, of course).

I know, without a shadow of doubt, that my N-ness has a genetic component strictly because it has been apparent since early childhood and my sister who was raised in the same household as I is a hardcore S.

Also, most attributes are the product of polygenic inheritance.

To be continued...

Perhaps.

;)

[Ilah]

Maybe it's Maybelline.

My analysis of the meager data: It seems like a lot of people are arguing against innate type encoding because their parents are so different. I've never had any reason to think there would be a connection. Type could be innate, and I wouldn't think it has much to do with what types your parents are.

Is saying type is innate the same thing as saying it has a genetic component? Is there another way of type being innate without it being genetic/inherited? I have other theories for how type could be innate without genetics but they are all metaphysical explanation. Does anyone know of any scientific explanation for innate characteristics that don't involve gentics?

[Jack Flak]

Is saying type is innate the same thing as saying it has a genetic component? Is there another way of type being innate without it being genetic/inherited? I have other theories for how type could be innate without genetics but they are all metaphysical explanation. Does anyone know of any scientific explanation for innate characteristics that don't involve gentics?
That's a tough one. I don't think it could get around DNA, but it could be random still, correct? I'm not a geneticist, and it's not a subject I've done much reading on.

I can tell you (believe me or no) that visual identification and the ease of it can dumbfound me sometimes. Several times in the pic gallery I've thought something like "Wow, he has an extremely similar face to several other ENTPs I've known," and I look over, and it says ENTP. I really start to wonder about the nature of individuality when this happens, even in a slightly mystical way. Not characteristic of me.

[edcoaching]

That's a tough one. I don't think it could get around DNA, but it could be random still, correct? I'm not a geneticist, and it's not a subject I've done much reading on.

One nongenetic factor could be what happens in the womb...an awful lot of variants cause differences in development over 9 months. I'm not saying this is where type comes from, just giving one example of innateness that isn't gene-based.

The ties to brain patterns, differences in siblings that exist from birth, etc., all point to innateness but the why is a big question...

[Jack Flak]

The ties to brain patterns, differences in siblings that exist from birth, etc., all point to innateness but the why is a big question...
That's a discussion I've had before. The answers which make sense are a: We're purpose built (by God, or whoever's Science Fair project humanity is); or b: It's an evolutionary asset. I lean toward the latter.

[CaptainChick]

:doh:

Just as something as complex as intelligence is largely heritable so too is personality.

Quantitative trait locus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifactorial_inheritance)

Heritability of IQ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ)

Behavioral Genetics (http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/behavior.shtml#influence)

[Jack Flak]

CC: If you would've read my posts you would have noticed I said I didn't think type was inherited from ancestors, just that it's very possibly innate.

[CaptainChick]

Who said I was facepalming at you?

;)

[Babylon Candle]

I have no proof for this theory but here is my theory:

Even though the functions are much better at portraying our "true personality" and there are moments where Ne is definitely different from Ni etc...
I doubt our brain is actually wired to have a Ne or Ti pathway. I think even with environment removed, one persons Ti will be wired different from another persons Ti.

Polygenic expression would best account for the previous statement AND account for why an ESFJ INTP parents can have a INTJ child.

I do not think its polygenic for say Ne or Ti... I think a much better explanation would be akin to the STEP II differentaites between say E or I:

polygenic expression for say:
1. talkativeness/quiet 2. enthusiastic/reserved 3. gregariousness/etc...

would ALL express for extroversion vs introversion. This allows for enough variation that parents can have seemingly way far off kids for MBTI and still allows the specificity that when all of these are expressed it can be reduced to jungain functions.

the only problem is...how the hell are you going to test all of this? test rats for polygenic expression of talkativeness while controlling for enthusiasm???

[Babylon Candle]

N recessively heritable? Like blue eyes? Like there's a perception gene with an S allele and an N allele (which we'll designate "s"), and if you cross 2 Ss parents you have a 25% chance of having an ss and thus intuitive child? Are you saying this because 25% of the American population is supposedly N?

I do think that it's partly genetic, as in, we're born with some aspect of it, or born with some built-in probability (predisposition) of being one or the other. And maybe our environment tips the scale to some degree. However, I highly highly doubt that this observational theory will neatly show up in our genes the way eye color does. Don't forget that the letters aren't functions in themselves.

EDIT: Hey, doesn't Captain Chick study genetics? Where is she? We need an expert!

as you probably know, we dont always follow simple Mendelian inheritance. humans are not always that simple! There can be:

complimentary (aaBB or AAbb both get the same pheno because both effect a chain of events...its important because it allows two "affected parents" aaBB x AAbb to have kids that are totally normal AaBb)

co-dominance (both A and b are expressed so its not black and white dom or rec in pheno).

recessive or dom epistasis (say for instance for many years it goes on as M or m being expressed and works all fine and well...suddenly that gene is totally not expressed in favor of another because another gene that is normally HH ends up as hh (through rare Hh x Hh parents meeting eachother) and thus when hh its, turns off Mm in favor of another pheno.

Polygenic: examples of this are height, skin color etc... many genes all with their own deal of working--anything from mendelain all the way to recessive epistasis--what ever you can think of all affect what looks like ONE trait.

also there can be mutant alleles and even multiple wild types. example is that maybe on factor of thinking is not a dichotomy of A a, but actually A, a+, a^,a- ...yet follows mendellian inheritance.

also there can be things like variable expression and incomplete penetrance all which affect how much a particular gene is expressed even if its "supposed to be" expressed.


Its vary possible that its entirely genetic without making everyone into a predicitable archetype.