NF(P): too-much expectations, yet little work?

[niki]

hey NF folks (or perhaps, more specifically, "NFP" folks )
do you often find yourself so immersed in too-many expectations (often unrealistic ones too!), and too-much imagining how's the END results would be, yet, you only do a very little REAL-work (the "Do" part).
in other words: you contemplate a lot, even WAY too much (even other people criticize you often because of this!) , with little to almost NO real-work being done?

and does this frustrate you?
I mean, i admit that I've done this a lot of times (ie: too much imagining the end-results without any real actions first!) , and it's kinda disturbing.
first, because often it's just a 'romantic' useless head-talkings, but the REAL results or outcomes often is not what i've been imagining a lot!
second, because I didn't do much real-actions. and instead only immersed myself in too-much 'unnecessary' thoughts , which leads to nothing in the end!

raise your hands if you can relate with me.
and what is your solution for handling this 'bad' behavior ?

[runvardh]

Used to be the first one, but these days I prefer to make the good stuff manifest - it's more enjoyable that way. :D

[Leysing]

I have to admit... :doh:

[phoenix13]

yes *buries head in shame*
I think it's another form of procrastination...

[Martian Manifesto]

hey NF folks (or perhaps, more specifically, "NFP" folks )
do you often find yourself so immersed in too-many expectations (often unrealistic ones too!), and too-much imagining how's the END results would be, yet, you only do a very little REAL-work (the "Do" part).
in other words: you contemplate a lot, even WAY too much (even other people criticize you often because of this!) , with little to almost NO real-work being done?

and does this frustrate you?
I mean, i admit that I've done this a lot of times (ie: too much imagining the end-results without any real actions first!) , and it's kinda disturbing.
first, because often it's just a 'romantic' useless head-talkings, but the REAL results or outcomes often is not what i've been imagining a lot!
second, because I didn't do much real-actions. and instead only immersed myself in too-much 'unnecessary' thoughts , which leads to nothing in the end!

raise your hands if you can relate with me.
and what is your solution for handling this 'bad' behavior ?

Get some J friends who understand you? If you say stuff to them they have a habit of asking what the status is and really want to know. This can be a good motivator. Your P would be good for them also. You can of course become a more mature INFP, but I don't think a even a very mature INFP ever stops doing this completely. If this thread was meant for Ps only, I apologize in advance.

My girlfriend of six years is an INFP and she says I have enough J for three people :) I think she has enough P for three people. Between the two of use we have enough J and P, plus some!

[AwesomeCakes]

hey NF folks (or perhaps, more specifically, "NFP" folks )
do you often find yourself so immersed in too-many expectations (often unrealistic ones too!), and too-much imagining how's the END results would be, yet, you only do a very little REAL-work (the "Do" part).
in other words: you contemplate a lot, even WAY too much (even other people criticize you often because of this!) , with little to almost NO real-work being done?

and does this frustrate you?
I mean, i admit that I've done this a lot of times (ie: too much imagining the end-results without any real actions first!) , and it's kinda disturbing.
first, because often it's just a 'romantic' useless head-talkings, but the REAL results or outcomes often is not what i've been imagining a lot!
second, because I didn't do much real-actions. and instead only immersed myself in too-much 'unnecessary' thoughts , which leads to nothing in the end!

raise your hands if you can relate with me.
and what is your solution for handling this 'bad' behavior ?

I feel your pain. I often get excited at the start up phase of anything new, and more ideas bubble than I know what to do with. As you said, "too-much 'unnecessary' thought" There are just so many possibilities it's hard to decide on a *swallows* "final" way of approaching a project. :/

What I found helps me with this is to look at the big picture. Think about who would appreciate what I am trying to accomplish. I get off on praise :P as I think most NFPs do.

As for the indecisiveness I try not spend so much time daydreaming about the possibilities and put my imagination into action as I go along. It's a bit impulsive, and you will go over everything that you are doing over and over again until you are satisfied. (I think we all do this to a degree.) Everything seems to come together in the end, and I am rarely disappointed with the results.

One more thing. I think you really have to want to change this habit, or you didn't really give a good god damn in the first place. Otherwise, it's just a minor annoyance at the time it happens. As the saying goes, "quit your bitchin if you're not gonna do anything about it!" I tell myself that all the time. Heh. Maybe a verbal bashing of the self ain't so bad once in awhile.:shock:

[GZA]

I'm the obly one who said no? :shock:

Either I no longer expect things, or I only commit to expecting things when I know I can do them.

[phoenix13]

I'm the obly one who said no? :shock:

Either I no longer expect things, or I only commit to expecting things when I know I can do them.

I can't resist a quote:

"How can I have expectations?! ... I do not hope for what I cannot have! I do not cling to things I cannot keep! The more you cling to things, the more you love them, the more the pain you suffer when they're taken from you. Ah, but, if you have no expectations, Captain, you can never have a disappointment." -Fosca (from Sondheim's musical: Passion)

[MrRandom]

I consider myself a really hard-working individual. I have to admit I sometimes even "criticize" my friends for not doing anything about their dreams and goals. They speak what they'd like to do and learn, but nobody (but me) actually does anything about their desires. To me it's very frustrating to watch, because I'd like to help... it's easy: just do it! I have come to understand that it doesn't really help.

Yeah, I'm a J. It makes sense. However, I'm still constantly frustrated. Even as a diligent and energetic worker I still don't have enough time to do it all. I'm constantly stressed out and depressed for not getting enough work done, although I already work more than many people put together (on my spare time, that is). I demand way too much from myself. And getting depressed about it actually lowers my energy and will to work, which gets me even more depressed for getting even less done. It's not really easy this way either. I have some bad days and some good days. My mood swings accordingly. I'll just try to cope with it. But hey, my work is fun (visual art and music). It's something I enjoy, so it's not like I'm the workaholic type.

[AwesomeCakes]

"How can I have expectations?! ... I do not hope for what I cannot have! I do not cling to things I cannot keep! The more you cling to things, the more you love them, the more the pain you suffer when they're taken from you. Ah, but, if you have no expectations, Captain, you can never have a disappointment." -Fosca (from Sondheim's musical: Passion)

I likes it :smile:

[AfterHours]

Yeah, my interest always fades when I realize how hard it is to complete something.

[Members Only]

you contemplate a lot, even WAY too much (even other people criticize you often because of this!) , with little to almost NO real-work being done?


When you are contemplating, work is being done.

Obviously at some point, action must be taken, but do not deny the value of contemplation. In fact, for an IN, it is where the majority of your work will take place.

The more concise your thoughts become in contemplation, the easier the action part of the equation will be.

Perhaps you need to structure your thoughts more before taking action?

[Carebear]

When you are contemplating, work is being done.

Obviously at some point, action must be taken, but do not deny the value of contemplation. In fact, for an IN, it is where the majority of your work will take place.

The more concise your thoughts are become in contemplation, the easier the action part of the equation will become.

Very true. Still, without the doing part, no work has really been done when contemplating. Nothing that can be shown at least.

That said: I contemplated and procrastinated for 4 years on my masters degree. After 3 of those I still had nothing to show to prove I'd really done any work at all. After the 4th however, praise in abundance and I've never before felt that the final product was actually BETTER than I'd envisioned. Always before it's been a halfhearted compromise between time left and original idea. So yes, your post is very true. Work is definitely being done while contemplating.

[Dwigie]

Yes....unfortunately, I can relate(doing it right now, helping someone out with their personal problem,thinking about mine instead of reviewing for a math test in three days xD)

[niki]

@Members Only & Carebear: seems like you guys are right.
for us, the IN part is probably our 'main weapon' that'll differ us from the majority of people in the terms of the raw ideas & also the final results.

which brings me to a curious question : so, definitely the IN's works and the IS's works would be totally different, as the end results?
while i'm sure the IS would easily just DO the works, but perhaps (not trying to discriminate against S people, really) , it would perhaps lack of "something magical" , that usually IN would easily be able to foresee & envisioned beforehand ?
but the drawback with the IN people is , because of they're often too-much imagining & overthinking (especially NFP folks) , the final results might be soo lacking in practical & detailed stuff, ie: maybe things like grammar, punctuation, or forgot to put the address, etc. 'silly' things like that?

And yes, I agree with Carebear, it's sometimes useless even after I have structured my thoughts, yet I still find it hard to "just DO it" , because right when I want to "do" it, I begin to contemplate again, think too-much!
argh!

i've learned from somebody in INFP globalchatter forum, & also from many great online articles on "how to eliminate procrastination" , that perhaps the best way to eliminate all of this is to just 'switch-off' our NFP mode, and just turn-on a bit of our shadow-function, namely is: T and S functions. T for thinking thoroughly the process, and S to just think of each small step one by one, and just DO it!
and yes, motivation & inspiration & words of praise often helped a lot! that's been my experience, at least.

[Carebear]

which brings me to a curious question : so, definitely the IN's works and the IS's works would be totally different, as the end results?
while i'm sure the IS would easily just DO the works, but perhaps (not trying to discriminate against S people, really) , it would perhaps lack of "something magical" , that usually IN would easily be able to foresee & envisioned beforehand ?
but the drawback with the IN people is , because of they're often too-much imagining & overthinking (especially NFP folks) , the final results might be soo lacking in practical & detailed stuff, ie: maybe things like grammar, punctuation, or forgot to put the address, etc. 'silly' things like that?


Yes, I think this can often be the case. Through highschool me and a few IS friends (ISFP, ISTP and possible ISTJ (could be E)) did fairly similar gradewise in Norwegian, history and English. Strong grades, but rarely top. We started comparing the feedback we got and the pattern that emerged was: They got comments like "well worked through, strong paper, but could have a more independent angle", mine were "very promising, you write with a very independent and creative angle, but your paper could could have used more work and been longer".

Different strengths, different weaknesses, same result unless you find a way to learn to work around your weaknesses.


And yes, I agree with Carebear, it's sometimes useless even after I have structured my thoughts, yet I still find it hard to "just DO it" , because right when I want to "do" it, I begin to contemplate again, think too-much!
argh!

i've learned from somebody in INFP globalchatter forum, & also from many great online articles on "how to eliminate procrastination" , that perhaps the best way to eliminate all of this is to just 'switch-off' our NFP mode, and just turn-on a bit of our shadow-function, namely is: T and S functions. T for thinking thoroughly the process, and S to just think of each small step one by one, and just DO it!
and yes, motivation & inspiration & words of praise often helped a lot! that's been my experience, at least.

Yes. It's very hard to switch off the contemplation bit. Especially since part of the contemplation is contemplating "what if I fail?" It might be more hidden, but I think it's rarely the case that INFP contemplation is Ne only. Sneaky Fi keeps hijacking Ne for worst case scenario contemplations. :)

Encouragement and words of praise helps Fi go to rest and leave Ne alone.

[Viv]

I can totally relate!

I think my problem has more to do with a lack of self-motivation..

[Hexis]

I do but I am most definitely working on finishing projects and commiting more to them.

[CaptainChick]

I am big on the process aspect of creating more so than I am on the actual product aspect of it.

Generally speaking, I hate filtering and committing my thoughts and ideas into a solidified, structured piece of work, it's stifling!!!

Gah, to be continued...

[evan]

Although I'm not NFP, I have this problem (it seems like enneagram 9s have this problem in general).

I always know what I want to do and what I should do to further my goals. I just never take the action...

[CzeCze]

i've learned from somebody in INFP globalchatter forum, & also from many great online articles on "how to eliminate procrastination" , that perhaps the best way to eliminate all of this is to just 'switch-off' our NFP mode, and just turn-on a bit of our shadow-function, namely is: T and S functions. T for thinking thoroughly the process, and S to just think of each small step one by one, and just DO it!

Yep, or what I affectionately like to call, 'just suck it up and do it. NOW'

:laugh:

I was the super stereotypical scatter-brained ENFP with all sorts of craziness and ideas and inspiration sparking from me 24/7 but learning to do hard, seemingly meaningless, trivial, etc. work was IM-POS-SI-BLE. If I don't want to do it, it ain't gonna happen. Parents, teachers, bosses have tried and failed. I'm not proud of this fact by a long shot. But I accept it's part of my character and work with it. Intractibility can actually be a great tool and gift sometimes -- just not when you need to be grown person and pay bills, etc.

And that "whoa, look at me, I'm so scatter-brained I'm a hopeless mess!" can be cute when you're 6 or maybe even 16, but once you hit 'Adulthood' (capital 'A') it's NOT cute anymore.

I could always be consistent and actually do a pretty good job on a project basis where I was motivated to start something -- like organizing a panel for a conference or a girls basketball team (both which I have done before). But in terms of administration and the long haul? Pure torture. It was really hard for me to be consistent even in practicing music, going to class regularly, making it through McJob after McJob. Eesh.

As I've gotten older, I've gotten better and better and make a passably good adult and can even fake some coworkers into thinking I'm a 'J'.

But really, the only way I found to push through it and realize ideas and goals is to just suck it up and do it. I have no sympathy for myself, no coddling, no prancing unicorns or hugs. I guess I let my shadow ISTJ go to TOWN, son! LOL.

There is no magic pill or button to make things happen for you, nobody who will magically come in at 0 hour and do the work for you or make it better. You might not even have any friends or supporters. It's you. Versus reality.

So if you want it, do it.

Honestly, that's helped me out a lot!

And after the first few painful torturous steps it gets easier and easier. Especially after your hard work and consistency actually have pay offs. Really, that's the biggest motivator -- knowing that doing the work actually gets you results. Like with any habit (for better or worse) the more you do it, the more it becomes ingrained in you and natural.

The pendulum keeps swinging to extremes but as you work on yourself and develop, it evens out. At least for me, says the ENFP.

[niki]

But really, the only way I found to push through it and realize ideas and goals is to just suck it up and do it. I have no sympathy for myself, no coddling, no prancing unicorns or hugs. I guess I let my shadow ISTJ go to TOWN, son! LOL.

There is no magic pill or button to make things happen for you, nobody who will magically come in at 0 hour and do the work for you or make it better. You might not even have any friends or supporters. It's you. Versus reality.

So if you want it, do it.

Honestly, that's helped me out a lot!

And after the first few painful torturous steps it gets easier and easier. Especially after your hard work and consistency actually have pay offs. Really, that's the biggest motivator -- knowing that doing the work actually gets you results. Like with any habit (for better or worse) the more you do it, the more it becomes ingrained in you and natural.

The pendulum keeps swinging to extremes but as you work on yourself and develop, it evens out. At least for me, says the ENFP.

wow!!.....and I have to really say a LOT of thanks to your post!
it really gives a simple (doh!) yet very insightful & wonderful advices for a "scaterred-brain" NF like me! :D

i know it might sounds like a "doh!" thing to SJ folks, especially, but seeing the results of the vote swinging towards the first choice, should tell them of how really HARD it is for us NFs, to ever get things done!

but whaddaya need to do about it?
keep complaining?
no! like you said, these "scattered brain" & procrastination doesn't no longer become a 'cute' thing once you enter the "A" world (ie: Adulthood), or in other words: the REAL-world (is that why i hate my birthday, because i know i'm getting more into that "A" world ? hehe) .

everybody needs to compromise something(s) when he/she enteres the REAL world. be it SJ, be it NF, be it NT .
nobody likes 100% of how this world looks like!
but I guess we can make it at least 70%, or 80% (ie: by fulfilling our dreams or purpose, especially for us NFs ! ) .
rather than if we keep procrastinate, feeling pessimistic, and "scattered brain" with nothing gets done because of no focus (which is, unfortunately, a must-thing if you want something to be done!) , the percentage could go lower to only 10%, or even 0% (ie: apathy, depression) !

in the end, which one u choose?

such a really great post, Cze Cze!
and i can't thank you more than enough! :)

[IEE623]

well... imagination is much better than reality.... there, everything goes the way you'd want them to.
like cze cze, ideas run through my head 24/7... however, i have the tendency to visualize the whole progress of all the possibilities how the ideas would come into being in my mind... So it means i tend to lose interest after i materialize my ideas in my head :P (what a loser! :shock: :doh:)

therefore, my crazy awesome ideas rarely get the chance to actually get materialized in this material world hehhe

[mlittrell]

yaaa im the same way, my way of dealing with it is telling someone im going to do something, have them count on me to do it, and then do it because i feel bad if i dont do it

[Carebear]

I am big on the process aspect of creating more so than I am on the actual product aspect of it.

Generally speaking, I hate filtering and committing my thoughts and ideas into a solidified, structured piece of work, it's stifling!!!

Gah, to be continued...

Hahahaha! Great example!

[CzeCze]

wow!!.....and I have to really say a LOT of thanks to your post!

Awww, you make me blush -- tell me more! :laugh: (You know how ENFPs love praise!)

And wow, I actually said something that resonated with someone else! High fives all around for ENFPs helping other ENFPs.

And 'they' say we're hopeless. :rolleyes:

however, i have the tendency to visualize the whole progress of all the possibilities how the ideas would come into being in my mind... So it means i tend to lose interest after i materialize my ideas in my head :P (what a loser! :shock: :doh:)

Nah, you're not a loser, you are a master brainstormer. :) Seriously, people get paid to come up with great ideas. Leave the SJs and NTs (wait, NTJs :P) to make it happen.

:huh:

Wait..no, don't leave it them. Let's make our ideas come true, ourselves! :happy2:

Really though, I totally get what you're saying and this is also part of the ENFP profile - we can think of things front to back, start to finish, 360 degrees and see exactly how our plan or idea will work out.

Then 9/10 times we're satisfied with just that.

We do not need to see our idea tested or put into action to 'know' that it will work or to 'prove' it will work. Just imagining it and realizing it in our heads is [fun] enough.

"If I imagine it, it's practically happened" -- actually, for us, it really "has" happened in a way.

Part of it is just being supremely confident that it would work anyway, so why go to all the trouble just to prove it to other people? And why do something when you know you could? We already "know" it will work and we enjoyed thinking it up, so the thrill is used up.

I think that also adds to how hard it can be for us to actualize ideas to physical reality. A lot of times, there's simply no motivation. What's the point of making something happen that you already "made happen" in your head?

I'm sure for some other types this seems bizarre...

But for ideas that you actually WANT to put into action, dear fellow ENFP(s), you can. :yes:

[snowflurri]

That sounds like me.
I tend to think up these 'great' plans and possibilities and ideas but then I'm not disciplined enough to carry it out because I procrastinate a lot.
When I REALLY want to do something though, I usually do it at the last possible moment and then miraculously manage to finish everything that I need/want to.

[Jennifer]

It tends to be an NP trait in general, although I think the "T" function might give a slight bit of oomph towards actually implementing something rather than just being satisfied with the good vibes. The problem with NTPs is that the T (judging process) is internalized, meaning the T doesn't have to be externalized for there to be some satisfaction. For an ENTP, this isn't horrible since they like to tinker with everything externally (the Ne given free reign) -- lots of activity, just not goal-driven in the Te sense -- but it's very easy for the models to be internalized and for external, specific goals to be ignored and for one to feel powerless over the outside world.

The two most productive INFPs I know IRL (FineLine, who I met here; and a friend I've known for ten years) have a strongly developed Te that they just call up at a moment's notice. I cannot vouch for how effective they are at FOLLOWING a plan when they're not motivated, but both are very very good at this point in their lives in breaking a large general task down into a series of small implementable steps and seeing the value in it at least. They have to tend to watch not to become too obsessive with the Te thing (i know my friend can obsess over details easily enough and has trouble letting go sometimes), but there is hope for the future. ;)

[niki]

so it's not easy for the NTP folks either, i guess eh..

[Into It]

too-much imagining how's the END results would be, yet, you only do a very little REAL-work (the "Do" part).
in other words: you contemplate a lot, even WAY too much (even other people criticize you often because of this!) , with little to almost NO real-work being done?


I can relate, but not like an INFP. So the lack of action doesn't frustrate me that much, it's more the lack of interest. During a more unhealthy period of my life, I seemed to be using Te all of the time. I realized vision after vision, but none were fulfilling anyway. Were it not for that unhealthiness, though, I would not know sleight of hand, or play the guitar, or have achieved the success in altering my dreams that I sought after, but no longer really have because that skill fades with time more than the others. But a lot of the time, it could be said that I do everything I dream, and many things I dream for about a day. But of course I would love to speak many languages and know everything. So I hit the library and learn a LITTLE physics, a LITTLE religious history, a bit of psychology. And now I know a whole lot of snippits from subjects that are really only vague ideas. I lose knowledge with time easily. I go from feeling like an expert on something to not really knowing it at all six months from the end of the fact. That's frustrating. It's also a bit frustrating to see that I CAN keep my hands moving, but no single important goal is accomplished. A ton of SPARSE knowledge and action amounts to nothing, you have to keep harping away. So find that thing that's actually worth moving for, take your time, and do it! I bet you have the potential complete a long term task better than someone who thinks similar to me does.

Edit: I twisted your thread backwards. That doesn't mean it's unraveled though. I do share your frustration I think, the circumstances are just a little different. My three closest friends are two INFP's and an INTP, and only one of them acts. She's damn near an activist, but may be the one of the three who needs her alone time most. INTP's are infamous for not acting. Some of them seem almost fearful of leaving the cave, less they may miss out on figuring something out. They are not known for dreaming either, though, so that's not really the same. ENTP's though, at least the three I know well, they act, NO doubt about it. They get stuff done. These three.

[Into It]

Niki, some of your threads wear me down a little bit. Hang in there.

[substitute]

so it's not easy for the NTP folks either, i guess eh..

My brother is an ENFP, so the pair of us make a good control experiment for this sort of thing...

I do tend to be more productive than him and follow through on many more of my plans than he does his and between us we've talked about it and reached a tentative conclusion that it's his F that stops him... he wants to be happy and have positive vibes all the time, whilst I'm quite indifferent to them. So when it gets to a phase of his plan where things are tough, unpleasant, perhaps conflict or confrontation is necessary or just putting up with a less-than-ideal situation, he tends to quickly lose heart and motivation, whilst I see those things as expected challenges and sorta bulldoze them outta my way.

An example would be where he tends to move around a lot, looking for his ideal community to live in. But as soon as he comes across people being difficult, perhaps stupid, or whatever, he quickly starts blaming the town, the people and everything else for all of his failures and saying it's a crap place and if he moves to this other place then everything will be great. Then goes to the next place and of course the same thing happens again because people are the same everywhere pretty much, and you're never going to be able to just walk into a place as a total stranger and from the word go be 'one of the boys', y'know, like he expects to have all the likeminded people to just come out of the woodwork the minute he's in town and make a big welcome party for him or something... lol

I'm similar in that I find dealing with people being stupid or difficult very frustrating. But having not started out from an idealist position of actually expecting or even desiring them to be perfect - or even nice! - this doesn't deter me. So I muddle through and eventually in this new town I get to know enough people and through them, other people, that eventually the people who are more my sorta people do end up coming outta the woodwork and stuff. He tends to conclude that if he hasn't met these people within a couple of months, then there aren't any in that town, it's a crappy town, he needs to move, etc.

[niki]

great post, substitute.
now i can see more clearer of WHY it's so hard for us NF to materialize things and NOT getting 'down' during the whole process!.. but i do wonder, does it also apply to NFJ as well?
'cuz i've always thought that it's more about "J" and "P" too (ie: the J folks will be more thorough & do more actions, and even seek it to the fulfillment, more than P folks).

[animenagai]

great post, substitute.
now i can see more clearer of WHY it's so hard for us NF to materialize things and NOT getting 'down' during the whole process!.. but i do wonder, does it also apply to NFJ as well?
'cuz i've always thought that it's more about "J" and "P" too (ie: the J folks will be more thorough & do more actions, and even seek it to the fulfillment, more than P folks).

i was gonna post a thread about the 'realistic level' of types. my theory is basically S > N, T > F, J > P. the first two is pretty obvious given sub's post. J > P because J's like to have an end in mind and ask "what's the point". their optimism will hence only take them so far because the day dreaming is always anchored.

[niki]

I think that also adds to how hard it can be for us to actualize ideas to physical reality. A lot of times, there's simply no motivation. What's the point of making something happen that you already "made happen" in your head?

but unfortunately - quoting from somebody's great opinion in my another thread - this is a physical & material world we're living in. so most people just don't CARE of what's in our little heads , when they don't see any REAL, actual, and practical results materialized in front of their eyes..
in other words, like the title of my newer thread: lots of ideas but no action = ZERO , in this very-practical world.. (UNLESS if we're living back in the Philosopher's era like Socrates, Plato, Aristoteles where our job is indeed only theorizing ideas! how FUN is that for us!)

this is where i guess our frustration & depression often comes from.

[erinavery]

ughh...yes...