Dealing with an unhealth INFJ so I come out unscathed.

[prplchknz]

My room mate who I'm stuck living with until may is an extremely unhealthy INFJ. I need tips on how to cope, because I often feel like I'm being manipulated, feels like everything has to go her way. She is NEVER at fault, and I'm often stressed when around her. Since I live with her I want to know some ways to either deal with her, or cut her out of my life for the most part. I'm going to go talk to someone anyways, but I would like some perspective from an INFJ who was once unhealthy or anyone whose dealt with one, in the past. What would have you done different? what would you do again?

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/8214-injs-extroverted-sensing.html

if you read that, that is how she is all the time. It's tiring, and the thing is she doesn't realize how unhealthy she is.

[Martian Manifesto]

My room mate who I'm stuck living with until may is an extremely unhealthy INFJ. I need tips on how to cope, because I often feel like I'm being manipulated, feels like everything has to go her way. She is NEVER at fault, and I'm often stressed when around her. Since I live with her I want to know some ways to either deal with her, or cut her out of my life for the most part. I'm going to go talk to someone anyways, but I would like some perspective from an INFJ who was once unhealthy or anyone whose dealt with one, in the past. What would have you done different? what would you do again?

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/8214-injs-extroverted-sensing.html

if you read that, that is how she is all the time. It's tiring, and the thing is she doesn't realize how unhealthy she is.

This person is not in a good place. Not saying you should do this, but if you could use your wonderfully nurturing INFP personality you may be able to be a valuable sounding board for this person. INFJs have extreme problems articulating what is going on inside them. One because it comes from Ni which is basically imposssible to verbalize anyway AND INFJs (especially when not in a good place, but pretty much all the time) are very sensitive to criticism.

Not saying that you have any compulsion to do so of course, but if you did there is a chance that you could be a rare friend to this person. If so, you would have a friend for life. INFJs take friendship very seriously. Once you are in with an INFJ you are in, and "in" in a big way. INFJs are polarized that way.

If this person is constantly "in the grip" then they are in a great deal of pain. They are not getting what they need from any sector of their life. If you could get this person to talk to you, you may be the only one they have. The INFJ may not say this to you, but if you become that kind of person then they will be your greatest advocate ever.

Advocacy or manipulation? I know, isn't there another choice with an INFJ?

ummmm.....uh...well....

P.S.: I can't believe I am telling you this, but if you really need to get somewhere with an INFJ...they are extremely sensitive to guilt being used on them. They may act like they aren't but they are (Fe). Don't be obvious, just use your wonderul Fi ability to be sad. The INFJ will pick this up and will feel bad. No INFJ likes to leave a situation feeling guilty, they will go to great lengths in order to not see themselves that way. Don't abuse this, but it can help you out in a pinch. I should know, I'm INFJ and so are both of my parents :)

[prplchknz]

I will say that this situation, is helping me learn to say no. That I need to take care of myself first, and not to be passive. I still need to work on the passiveness, and taking care of myself. I can't keep putting others needs before myself I'm learning this. I need to stand up for what I need, not what I want, what I need. Even if I don't want to do something, like allowing my room mate to keep this dog, I want the dog, but I know she won't have time for it. So maybe he needs to go back, but I really want to keep him.

[Martian Manifesto]

I will say that this situation, is helping me learn to say no. That I need to take care of myself first, and not to be passive. I still need to work on the passiveness, and taking care of myself. I can't keep putting others needs before myself I'm learning this. I need to stand up for what I need, not what I want, what I need. Even if I don't want to do something, like allowing my room mate to keep this dog, I want the dog, but I know she won't have time for it. So maybe he needs to go back, but I really want to keep him.

Have you ever had a heart-to-heart with this person?

[prplchknz]

Have you ever had a heart-to-heart with this person?

Not a true one, more of she tells me everything I tell her nothing. And this is when she's drunk, so I don't know if I could get her to open up sober. I would like to try, but I don't know how to go about doing this.

we are friends, it's just she's not the right type of person for me to live with. So even if we didn't live together I'd probably still hang out with her.

[cafe]

I think that type isn't very relevant in dealing with a situation like this, except in maybe identifying when a person is in an unhealthy state and determining triggers.

Most people do what has worked for them in the past. The best way to cancel unwanted behaviors is to cease allowing them to be effective.

Do not take responsibility for her. Don't pay her expenses, do her chores, etc. Don't accommodate her beyond what you believe is reasonable and fair. (It can be hard to determine what is reasonable and fair if you are a giving person, so flip perspectives. Ask yourself what you would think if a friend's roommate was asking this of him/her or treating him/her this way, etc. Don't expect more flex from yourself than you would from anyone else.)

Do not comply with her attempts to manipulate you. She needs to communicate in a calm, rational, reasonable way. If she does otherwise, warn her once, then leave the room (or whatever) and tell her you can discuss it with her again when she is calm.

If her unhealthy methods cease to be effective for her, she will either change them to something that does work and you will have a healthier relationship (and she will be a healthier person) or she will move on to someone she can manipulate.

[prplchknz]

So realistically that means not taking care of her dog for her, and means we can't keep him. I mean it's harder with a dog, since it's a living thing. I don't want to give it up, I should have never agreed in the first place. I hope she can prove in the next two weeks that she can be a good mommy to this dog. I don't mind taking him for walks once in awhile, I enjoy playing with him. But if I find myself doing most of the work,since she paid for him and her name is on the adoption papers it's her responsibility.

[substitute]

I will say that this situation, is helping me learn to say no. That I need to take care of myself first, and not to be passive. I still need to work on the passiveness, and taking care of myself. I can't keep putting others needs before myself I'm learning this. I need to stand up for what I need, not what I want, what I need.

Sometimes you NEED to have what you want. Also it's not always a bad thing to put others before yourself, but something I've noticed INFP's often have difficulty with is prioritizing the needs of others, like whose needs are more legitimate and reasonable. They can often disappoint people with legitimate needs who are not asking anything unreasonable (and who gives plenty back in return), in order to pander to someone who doesn't really merit the time they spend on them (and gives nothing back), mainly because the latter will cry if they don't, and the INFP doesn't like conflict. It's easier to disappoint the person who will stoically keep their disappointment inside than the one who'll cry and make you feel bad.

I've had issues in the past with unhealthy INFJ's, and I haven't really found any way of effectively dealing with them apart from just cutting them dead, which isn't really dealing and far from my ideal solution....

But your particular issue here being that someone's got a dog and now doesn't want the responsibility and is trying to foist it onto you is pretty much exactly the same position my INFP friend is in. You've got to be firm and say no. Just stop doing anything for the dog and after a week if she's not taking responsibility then get it rehomed.

[cafe]

So realistically that means not taking care of her dog for her, and means we can't keep him. I mean it's harder with a dog, since it's a living thing. I don't want to give it up, I should have never agreed in the first place. I hope she can prove in the next two weeks that she can be a good mommy to this dog. I don't mind taking him for walks once in awhile, I enjoy playing with him. But if I find myself doing most of the work,since she paid for him and her name is on the adoption papers it's her responsibility.
Yeah, you'll have to tell her that this is what's going down and give her a deadline, then either relocate the dog or have her sign it over to you if you want it.

[Martian Manifesto]

Not a true one, more of she tells me everything I tell her nothing. And this is when she's drunk, so I don't know if I could get her to open up sober. I would like to try, but I don't know how to go about doing this.

we are friends, it's just she's not the right type of person for me to live with. So even if we didn't live together I'd probably still hang out with her.

One thing you should know about INFJs (INTJs too in my experience) is that they can appear completely immovable in their operating. So much so that you would think that talking to them is a waste of time. However, I have found that if you talk to the INJ about the way your (you and this person) model of doing things is causing you distress, that the INJs can radically shift their Ni model based on the new data.

I am not saying that you are at fault, far from it. However, the INFJ must be given the opportunity to hear your thoughts as you are expressing them to us now. You won't know what roads that may open up until you do so. If you realy want to get some resolution, you should have a full sharing talk, at least once. Don't expect the INFJ to switch then. Just talk it all over, then let them go ponder for a while. It is not unlikely that they will come back with a new model for interacting that takes more into account your needs.

Remember the following things:

1) INFJs hate feeling guilty. The more reasonable you are when you have this talk the more the INFJ will subconsciously feel an itch that perhaps they aren't being reasonable. They probably won't show this during the talk, but I assure you they will afterwards. INFJs do ruthless appraisals of their conduct on a regular basis. If they know that you are out there with those feelings, and you are a reasonable person and they like you...that shiet will bounce around in their Ni heads until they come up with "the answer". The INFJ will be proud of their "answer" which accomodates a larger vista (both your needs). They will still act like an INFJ but they will be manipulative FOR you not against you.

2) INFJs LOVE to talk about relationships and how they can be improved and OPTIMIZED. Express how the current things make for tension and that tension causes both INFJs and INFPs to behave not at their best. I am INFJ and my lovely lady-friend of six years is INFP. She uses this tactic on me all the time, to good effect.

3) INFJs need to step through their intuitions in order to understand them completely. If this INFJ is hurt or immature then the Ni models that she is running on has not been vetted yet. Your conversation with this person could be that for them. It is quite common for my Ni intuitions to make an "a ha" when I am TALKING (Fe) with somebody who is understanding. INFJs have very few people who can provide this valuable function. Again, when I have this 'a ha" while talking I don't usually tell anybody, so don't expect your friend to. They will take these 'a ha" moments and take them back to their hidy place inside and make up a new superior, more encompassing model to fly with for the future with you. The person may present this "new better way" with pride after some pondering (could take days, be patient).

4) INFJs do not like details and tend not to like to keep track of them (dog stuff). However, Se is part of the INFJ's makeup. Most the INFJs I know (including myself) tend to REALLY REALLY remember CERTAIN Se stuff. This is usually a form of ritualization. By making the Se thing more "formal" it allows the INFJ to "hold onto" it better. What does this mean? I would make part of the talk mentioning (doesn't have to be the first talk) that there will need to be a concrete discussion and WRITING down of the needs of the dog in totallity. When INFJs see their duties made so formal it tends to have a powerful effect on them. When they think about shirking, their Ni (mayby Ti) will say "remember the paper! remember the rules you agreed to! you will look stupid if you don't. our roommate will "be in the right" and will be within their rights to bring it up." That is usually what helps me. I am more evolved so usually I don't need these talks (well sometimes sure). If I think it is going to be a problem FOR ME, I will often initiate this talk to PUT MYSELF ON NOTICE. Otherwise I am very lax with Se stuff.

[Martian Manifesto]

Yeah, you'll have to tell her that this is what's going down and give her a deadline, then either relocate the dog or have her sign it over to you if you want it.

I think that is how an INFJ deals with an INFJ. It's rather draconian. If you have ever gone toe to toe with an INFJ then you know this is a BAD tactic. You haven't seen stubborn until you meet an INFJ or INTJ with their chin leaned into the wind. Primitive. This is why most people don't recommend same types as couples. Just this reason. Hitting this person with a J will almost guarantee a very J (ignorant) response. This person is a friend, no?

Plus all the INFJs I know are EXTREMELY sensitive to innuendo. Just having a serious heart-to-heart about the situation and how some safeties need to be put in place etc, will put the INFJ on HIGH ALERT. Just that raising of the intimacy and attention of the issue will have the INFJ's Ni on overdrive. Don't be surprised if this makes the INFJ nervous and you get more Fe from them than you thought you would.

Again, I have been with an INFP for several years and I am telling you: go with the guilt. Ask them to make declarative statements for their behaviro for YOUR NEEDS. If you phrase it that way, the INFJs I know will feel like shiet (even when it's not true) and want to do whatever will make the guilty feelings stop. It's the coup de gras. We have little defense. If it comes in the form of J, it is not going to go over well, I can tell you that.

[cafe]

I think that is how an INFJ deals with an INFJ. It's rather draconian. If you have ever gone toe to toe with an INFJ then you know this is a BAD tactic. You haven't seen stubborn until you meet an INFJ or INTJ with their chin leaned into the wind. Primitive. This is why most people don't recommend same types as couples. Just this reason. Hitting this person with a J will almost guarantee a very J (ignorant) response. This person is a friend, no?

Plus all the INFJs I know are EXTREMELY sensitive to innuendo. Just having a serious heart-to-heart about the situation and how some safeties need to be put in place etc, will put the INFJ on HIGH ALERT. Just that raising of the intimacy and attention of the issue will have the INFJ's Ni on overdrive. Don't be surprised if this makes the INFJ nervous and you get more Fe from them than you thought you would.

Again, I have been with an INFP for several years and I am telling you: go with the guilt. Ask them to make declarative statements for their behaviro for YOUR NEEDS. If you phrase it that way, the INFJs I know will feel like shiet (even when it's not true) and want to do whatever will make the guilty feelings stop. It's the coup de gras. We have little defense. If it comes in the form of J, it is not going to go over well, I can tell you that.
Well, it's just that purp's roomie has been pulling this kind of stuff for some time and it's really got to be getting old. She's this girl's friend, not her mommy. Guilt can work both ways. It can, in small doses, motivate or it can incapacitate if the friend is already feeling overwhelmed by obligations she's unprepared for, so I would use it with great caution. She might even be relieved to be 'forced' to give up the dog because she unintentionally bit off more than she could chew.

[Martian Manifesto]

Well, it's just that purp's roomie has been pulling this kind of stuff for some time and it's really got to be getting old. She's this girl's friend, not her mommy. Guilt can work both ways. It can, in small doses, motivate or it can incapacitate if the friend is already feeling overwhelmed by obligations she's unprepared for, so I would use it with great caution. She might even be relieved to be 'forced' to give up the dog because she unintentionally bit off more than she could chew.

I agree with everything you just said...except the approach. Too J. Wouldn't the making of a formal list of the dogs needs and the roommates needs do this without so much J. Wouldn't a hightened J response AFTER this didn't work still be an option? You can't take back the J sting once you give it. Plus, the J AFTER said reasonable approach will carry mucho more weight, at least it would with me.

Statements like "not her mommy", which is completely true of course, start the approach out with a PRE-DETERMINED OUTCOME. That is death to negotiations. I get called in frequently for conflict management and this is NOT how you start. It paints you as more unreasonalbe than you actually are. I think we have lost sight of the fact that ALL this stuff that we are hearing has NOT been expressed to the INFJ. That was the first question I asked. If the poster had said that the hear-to-heart had happned to no avail then I would be right with you on the draconian bandwagon. I am an INFJ after all.

The INFJ has NEVER heard the angst, hurt feelings, etc of the plaintiff? This puts you in a weak and emotional position. Start off being reasonable, but DOCUMENTED, and you hold the upper hand. I think you should let somebody know they are hurting you and what your needs are before anything resembling a show of force. Show of force as the lead move? bad bad bad

[cafe]

I agree with everything you just said...except the approach. Too J. Wouldn't the making of a formal list of the dogs needs and the roommates needs do this without so much J. Wouldn't a hightened J response AFTER this didn't work still be an option? You can't take back the J sting once you give it. Plus, the J AFTER said reasonable approach will carry mucho more weight, at least it would with me.

Statements like "not her mommy", which is completely true of course, start the approach out with a PRE-DETERMINED OUTCOME. That is death to negotiations. I get called in frequently for conflict management and this is NOT how you start. It paints you as more unreasonalbe than you actually are. I think we have lost sight of the fact that ALL this stuff that we are hearing has NOT been expressed to the INFJ. That was the first question I asked. If the poster had said that the hear-to-heart had happned to no avail then I would be right with you on the draconian bandwagon. I am an INFJ after all.

The INFJ has NEVER heard the angst, hurt feelings, etc of the plaintiff? This puts you in a weak and emotional position. Start off being reasonable, but DOCUMENTED, and you hold the upper hand. I think you should let somebody know they are hurting you and what your needs are before anything resembling a show of force. Show of force as the lead move? bad bad bad
Yeah. Good point. I hate that feeling where you know you are doing something that's bothering someone else, but you don't know which thing it is and you're kind of afraid to ask.

Plus, I just assume that if someone is picking up part of my load when I haven't asked them to it's because they are willing to do so. If they stop doing it, I'll figure it out and start handling it myself, but it might just not be when someone else would want it done and I might have to (in the case of a dog) clean up a few messes before I get it through my head that it's better to be proactive than reactive.

[Martian Manifesto]

Yeah. Good point. I hate that feeling where you know you are doing something that's bothering someone else, but you don't know which thing it is and you're kind of afraid to ask.

Plus, I just assume that if someone is picking up part of my load when I haven't asked them to it's because they are willing to do so. If they stop doing it, I'll figure it out and start handling it myself, but it might just not be when someone else would want it done and I might have to (in the case of a dog) clean up a few messes before I get it through my head that it's better to be proactive than reactive.

Yeah, I'm pretty much the same way. Maybe this INFJ is immature and hasn't had the experience to be more proactive. Could this be that opportunity? Could this INFP be the one to help this INFJ go to the next level of development? Never know :) If so, do you agree that an INFJ has it within them to make noticable changes IF they are made aware of it and IF it comes in a non-threatening form? Most of the INFJs I know are surprisingly adaptable when they are approached as a friend, and are surprisingly implacable when they aren't. For me this is both a strength and a weakness I have.

[cafe]

Yeah, I'm pretty much the same way. Maybe this INFJ is immature and hasn't had the experience to be more proactive. Could this be that opportunity? Could this INFP be the one to help this INFJ go to the next level of development? Never know :) If so, do you agree that an INFJ has it within them to make noticable changes IF they are made aware of it and IF it comes in a non-threatening form? Most of the INFJs I know are surprisingly adaptable when they are approached as a friend, and are surprisingly implacable when they aren't. For me this is both a strength and a weakness I have.
Anybody regardless of type has it within them to make noticeable changes IF they want to and ONLY if they want to. Being made aware of the problem in a kind way is always a plus, but manipulators and parasites come in all types including INFJ. They are out there and they can spot a kind, accommodating person a mile away. IMO, it's not purp's responsibility to help another adult 'grow up' but if she is willing to invest in her friend in this way, that is a very kind thing for her to do.

[Martian Manifesto]

Anybody regardless of type has it within them to make noticeable changes IF they want to and ONLY if they want to. Being made aware of the problem in a kind way is always a plus, but manipulators and parasites come in all types including INFJ. They are out there and they can spot a kind, accommodating person a mile away. IMO, it's not purp's responsibility to help another adult 'grow up' but if she is willing to invest in her friend in this way, that is a very kind thing for her to do.

Absolutely, INFJs are not immune to being losers and jerks.

Parasites do come in all types also. I just haven't heard definitely from the INFP in question that this INFJ is that person. The OP actually linked the forum discussing INFJs when in the grip of their inferior function so I thought the focus was how to deal with an unhealthy INFJ who was of at least some emotional importance to the INFP. Wouldn't starting with the reasonable approach help "flush" out whether or not this INFJ is just obtuse right now because they are immature and not handling things very well or just a parasite. For the INFJ to spot a accomodating INFP and NOT CARE about their feelings, wouldn't the feelings need to be presented to the INFJ to test this theory out.

It is not the INFPs responsibility to bail out the INFJs bad decision if that is what it was. No argument form me. I say get medieval. However, the INFP as a friend/roommate DOES have the responsibility of letting the PERSON IN QUESTION know what is on her mind AT LEAST as much as has been given to us, two strangers on a forum. If the INFJ in question doesn't have as full a picture of the feelings of the INFP as WE have, then I think holding them to some harsh standard is premature.

But yes, INFJs are not above being effing useless and ignorant. IF this is the case, then I have no patience for this lousy INFJ either. I just have not heard anything from the OP that says reasonable steps to broach the full import of what is going on has happened yet. I try to keep my temper on a leash until I am sure that the purp deserves it. I usually do this by making a calm, mature attempt to have a serious conversation with the goal being to arrive at a more mutually acceptable arrangement. The person may have no idea of the anger they are causing me and it may get remedied easily. If I come with anger then I am going to get anger back more often then not, thus fulfilling my own prophecy.

[cafe]

Absolutely, INFJs are not immune to being losers and jerks.

Parasites do come in all types also. I just haven't heard definitely from the INFP in question that this INFJ is that person. The OP actually linked the forum discussing INFJs when in the grip of their inferior function so I thought the focus was how to deal with an unhealthy INFJ who was of at least some emotional importance to the INFP. Wouldn't starting with the reasonable approach help "flush" out whether or not this INFJ is just obtuse right now because they are immature and not handling things very well or just a parasite. For the INFJ to spot a accomodating INFP and NOT CARE about their feelings, wouldn't the feelings need to be presented to the INFJ to test this theory out.

It is not the INFPs responsibility to bail out the INFJs bad decision if that is what it was. No argument form me. I say get medieval. However, the INFP as a friend/roommate DOES have the responsibility of letting the PERSON IN QUESTION know what is on her mind AT LEAST as much as has been given to us, two strangers on a forum. If the INFJ in question doesn't have as full a picture of the feelings of the INFP as WE have, then I think holding them to some harsh standard is premature.

But yes, INFJs are not above being effing useless and ignorant. IF this is the case, then I have no patience for this lousy INFJ either. I just have not heard anything from the OP that says reasonable steps to broach the full import of what is going on has happened yet. I try to keep my temper on a leash until I am sure that the purp deserves it. I usually do this by making a calm, mature attempt to have a serious conversation with the goal being to arrive at a more mutually acceptable arrangement. The person may have no idea of the anger they are causing me and it may get remedied easily. If I come with anger then I am going to get anger back more often then not, thus fulfilling my own prophecy.
I'm sure you are the voice of reason, but you are also a newb. Granted, the OP and I aren't what you would call close, be we have been on the forum together for over a year and admittedly, I get protective. This isn't the first time her roomie has been a problem or tried to leave her holding the bag. If it was the first time, I'd be prone to being more sympathetic toward the INFJ.

I also know prplchknz is a responsible, reasonable person who can sort through the advice she gets here and decide what to use, what to toss, and what to save for later. *shrug*

[prplchknz]

I think really I feel like I was manipulated into this dog. Because, I was like I'm out of baking soda (I was making pancakes) and I didn't feel like going to the store, so I asked my room mate. She made me promise we'd go get a dog that day. And when I promise I will not go back on them. She knows this, and I feel like I probably would have gone to the store in the reverse and not asked for anything in return except maybe "well I was going to switch my clothes from the washer to the dryer, could you please do that?" not even making her promise. I should have gotten off my lazy ass and gone myself, would have not been in this mess.

Also I'm being a little preememtive on this. But I know I've been in situations with her where she does stuff and takes care of things then all of a sudden decides she doesn't want to deal or doesn't have time and I get kinda manipulated into taking care of things for her. So she is taking care of the dog, but I'm also paranoid.

[heart]

MM is correct about the needs focus of your stance being best. I am always getting scathed by INFJ, because I approach with Te dictates and don't want to show need or vulnerability.

[prplchknz]

I don't really want to help this person grow I tried being the friend thing and I tried being sympathetic, listening to her complain, and I see her staying the same selfish person doing the same things over and over again.\. I just want ways for me to cope, and not be manipulated. and then in may when my lease is up unless she does a complete 180 I move out.

[heart]

No I wasn't trying to say for her personal growth or anything, I just think that he's right in that you'll a better response out of them by activating their Fe.

In my experience with people in general, there's no way for me to escape the guilt thing, so I just have to try and ignore it and push on with what I need to do for myself. Let me tell you about my in-laws and brother sometime, ugh major manipulators, major guilt producers when things don't go their way. ugh, ugh ugh. That's why God made answering machines!

[substitute]

Did it not occur to you that go to store to get baking soda vs take on ten year + commitment of dog is a somewhat uneven deal...? Sorta like 'help me with this zipper and I'll give you my Ferrari"?

I'd have said "Sod you then, I'll go to the store myself."
Knowing the person from previous experience, was someone not likely to follow through on promises or deals, there's pretty much nothing that could've persuaded me to give in to her request, no deal, no promise of hers no matter how big, because it wouldn't be worth the air molecules it was transmitted on.

[prplchknz]

Did it not occur to you that go to store to get baking soda vs take on ten year + commitment of dog is a somewhat uneven deal...? Sorta like 'help me with this zipper and I'll give you my Ferrari"?

I'd have said "Sod you then, I'll go to the store myself."
Knowing the person from previous experience, was someone not likely to follow through on promises or deals, there's pretty much nothing that could've persuaded me to give in to her request, no deal, no promise of hers no matter how big, because it wouldn't be worth the air molecules it was transmitted on.

I was still drinking coffee...so no. bad excuse I know.

So if I help you with your zipper you'll give me a Ferrari? where's this zipper you need help with?

[heart]

^ lol, When I first read that, I totally understood how that happened! It's an INFP thang...

Getting caught when Te is still sleeping.

[substitute]

I was still drinking coffee...so no. bad excuse I know.

OK, future disaster avoidance tactic: make NO your default answer to everything, and then later you can change your mind if you want to after you've thought about it.

If you can't say 'no', like if that's too much assertiveness all in one go, try 'I'll think about it'. But under no circumstances say 'yes' to anything when the person has approached you. Make your 'yes' the thing you say when you approach them after you've thought about it.

[heart]

INFP thought blunders are very, very hard to avoid because the very thing needed to avoid them is malfunctioning and so easy to get caught up on the one detail "I need baking soda" and not even realize that thinking is hung up. *sigh* it's very hard even after knowing this about one's self because the very aparatus that lets you see it is happening is the apparatus that malfuctions to make it happen. ... no one really probably understood what I just said...

[substitute]

but even with Te hung up, you can still realize that somebody's asking you something, and develop a habit of just saying no until you've had a chance to figure it out.

basically it's either that or go your entire life being made a sucker of. *shrug*

[heart]

but even with Te hung up, you can still realize that somebody's asking you something, and develop a habit of just saying no until you've had a chance to figure it out.

basically it's either that or go your entire life being made a sucker of. *shrug*

It's not an either or situation. I am telling you based on experience that yes I can aspire to be watchful for it and I have developed a habit to say I'll think about it and I do catch it like 98.999 percent of the time, but sooner or later I get caught in an unguarded moment, usually due to physical fatigue or extreme stress. It's going to happen more easily with the people one lives with.

See, I read her post and I assumed she knows some of this about herself already but got caught in some kind of unguarded moment where baking soda became the pivotal point on which all further progress rested and well... I know the forehead slapping nature of that and feeling of self-recrimination and the frustration of it that all comes afterwards when thinking clears and one realizes "man oh man all I had to do was say I'll think about it".

[substitute]

LOL it's amazing for me to hear all this, I wouldn't have imagined anyone could seriously work like that hahaha

Cos see, though for me honouring agreements and keeping promises is practically a pathological obsession (really!), if I'd made a 'deal' like that I wouldn't have felt any compunction about going back on it later on. In fact I'm pretty sure that even an INFP can notice within minutes that they've just done a very silly thing, and the option exists of saying "wait a minute - ha, nice try, you almost got me there! yeah right, that's a fair deal, NOT!"

Even if it weren't for hours or until the time came for you to honour the agreement, the option still exists to say "Haha, nice one, like you're gonna convince me that you REALLY thought I'd be stupid enough to agree to getting a dog in exchange for some baking soda??"

The way i see it, any promise or agreement extracted under duress or unfair conditions is no deal, basically.

[heart]

As I understood it, the dog issue has been on the table for a time now. I remember reading about in Purple's blog, about them getting a puppy but that the roommate had to wait until she had more money or something.

I thought the baking soda compromise was simply about that would be the day they finally went and looked at dogs to pick one out, but I didn't think it was the first time it had been brought up.

The roommate has agreed to take total care of the dog, if she doesn't, the onus is really still on the roommate for not following commitments.

[substitute]

yeah that's what I figured too, but still the fact remains that whether it was a spontaneous request or a repeat of an earlier request, purple needs to really learn how to not end up in ridiculous situations through a misplaced feeling of honour/obligation.

she wants advice, so that's what I'm giving. how to deal with an unhealthy INFJ? Don't expect them to change their ways, don't think you can make them change. All you can do for now is change the way YOU operate so as to limit the damage their craziness inflicts on your life and those of others linked to you.

[heart]

Yeah, an INFP just has to sometimes learn to swallow or live with feelings of guilt and do what has to be done to protect themselves. It's probably always a good idea to get out of situations where INFP has to live with manipulative people.

Like I have a sibling who is always, always pushing at my limits. And everyone is like always saying well just take a hard line with them and don't let them push you around but the truth is that means always needing to be on guard and like I said I can be like 98 percent of the time but sooner or later I'll get caught in a weak moment and it is not really laziness sub, you are showing a misunderstanding there.

Anyway, bottomline I had to cut this person out of my life because they are always manupulating, always draining, always pushing the limits an never will listen to me when I have told them over and over and over what needs to change, even they say "well just put me in my place when I step over the line." sorry folks! I am not responsible for holding you to your side of the boundary issue. I am only responsible for mine and for letting you know what I need. I am not a parent or an enforcer.

It's just better I think for an INFP to limit private life to those people they can trust well and I really hope Purple can get out of this roommate situation soon. :hug:

[cafe]

I think really I feel like I was manipulated into this dog. Because, I was like I'm out of baking soda (I was making pancakes) and I didn't feel like going to the store, so I asked my room mate. She made me promise we'd go get a dog that day. And when I promise I will not go back on them. She knows this, and I feel like I probably would have gone to the store in the reverse and not asked for anything in return except maybe "well I was going to switch my clothes from the washer to the dryer, could you please do that?" not even making her promise. I should have gotten off my lazy ass and gone myself, would have not been in this mess.

Also I'm being a little preememtive on this. But I know I've been in situations with her where she does stuff and takes care of things then all of a sudden decides she doesn't want to deal or doesn't have time and I get kinda manipulated into taking care of things for her. So she is taking care of the dog, but I'm also paranoid.
Forgive the Biblical reference, but holy birthright for a mess of pottage, Batman! :shock: IMO, you're not obligated to put up with a dog in exchange for a quick run to the store. I mean, if she had to hike through a mile of knee deep snow to get it, that would be one thing, but I'm assuming it's not the case. That was an extremely juvenile thing for her to pull. Call her on it and, yes, use guilt if needed. She ought to be ashamed of herself.

Yeah, an INFP just has to sometimes learn to swallow or live with feelings of guilt and do what has to be done to protect themselves. It's probably always a good idea to get out of situations where INFP has to live with manipulative people.

Like I have a sibling who is always, always pushing at my limits. And everyone is like always saying well just take a hard line with them and don't let them push you around but the truth is that means always needing to be on guard and like I said I can be like 98 percent of the time but sooner or later I'll get caught in a weak moment and it is not really laziness sub, you are showing a misunderstanding there.

Anyway, bottomline I had to cut this person out of my life because they are always manupulating, always draining, always pushing the limits an never will listen to me when I have told them over and over and over what needs to change, even they say "well just put me in my place when I step over the line." sorry folks! I am not responsible for holding you to your side of the boundary issue. I am only responsible for mine and for letting you know what I need. I am not a parent or an enforcer.

It's just better I think for an INFP to limit private life to those people they can trust well and I really hope Purple can get out of this roommate situation soon. :hug:
Ugh! I have this problem too. Maybe I am an INFP after all. :thinking:

[prplchknz]

Points to talk about with room mate.
-Getting baking soda and getting a dog are two different things, entirely.
-Did not respect my request when filling out the paper work to get along with other animals.
*I pay half the rent, if my brother needs a place for his pets for a few days, they can stay here. It's not fair to me that you seem to get whatever you want, and I'm often making sacrifices. Also their's a huge difference between taking care of a dog for a few days and owning one.
-You lied. You lied to me and the person at the place. You do not have a boyfriend, you aren't going to keep the promises you made. This is a big issue with me, this is mostly why I'm saying no dog ever.
-You aren't going to have time, you are taking 19 credits. Come a few weeks you're going to realize this. And when you start trying to get me to take care of the dog, I'm taking him back. This is the other big point of no dog.
-You can not give him free reign of the apartment while you're out.
-I want the trash can on the floor, and my bean bag chair back by the tv.


So next time you want something like this don't lie, and make me make ridiculous deals. Oh and lots of people don't have pets in college, some how they all survived, and you will to.

[Martian Manifesto]

I'm sure you are the voice of reason, but you are also a newb. Granted, the OP and I aren't what you would call close, be we have been on the forum together for over a year and admittedly, I get protective. This isn't the first time her roomie has been a problem or tried to leave her holding the bag. If it was the first time, I'd be prone to being more sympathetic toward the INFJ.

I also know prplchknz is a responsible, reasonable person who can sort through the advice she gets here and decide what to use, what to toss, and what to save for later. *shrug*

I may be a "newb" to this board, but I think you may be showing a lack of clarity on this issue. That or the OP showed a lack of clarity in stating what advice she wanted. I may be mistaken in these points but I don't see them yet. Perhaps it is because I am a "newb".

1) This is an ongoing situation? That doesn't improve your or the OP's position. The says that this has been festering and the heart-to-heart hasn't happened, when it should have, for a LONG time. I thought the heart-to-heart was imperative when this shiet had been going on for a SHORT time. The INFP NEEDS to STATE what is in her mind to the INFJ. You can call that "newb" thinking but I am fairly certain of this as a basic tennant of conflict resolution and management. IF this heart-to-heart HAS happened then I change my approach of course. But I asked this question very early on. I asked because in conflict resolution it shoudl be on your short list of questions to ask. The first being "are you in danger right now?" :) Right after that I usually ask "Does this person know the things you just said to me?"

2) Well if the OP does possess the discernment to know what to "toss" I hope it is any advice of going J. Again, I am going with what the OP stated. First, in the title itself is "...come out unscathed". If you go J you will not come out unscathed from an INFJ, especially if you have to live with them for over half a year. That will be the longest several months ever. And INFPs do not do well in confrontations with INFJs where the INFP can't leave afterwards. INFJs are long-burn haters when they go bad. IF this person is as possibly immature as you say, this is a major concern.

3) I state this only as a generality: INFPs are NOT good at making decisions when their Fi is in overdrive. The first and subsequent posts of the OP lead me to believe this is the state she is in. This could be wrong of course. I don't know this INFP very well at all. But I think most third party observers would say that the OP is quite upset right now. IF this is the case, then another thing she should "toss" is any notion of doing anything with this first wave of emotions. Let it wash over and then make you choice.

4) The OP also made a brief referrence to this person being a friend. I'm assuming this has gone south. But how south? Again, this is like the third effing question you ask in conflict resolution. What can be saved? What do you WANT to be saved? Even if the answer is NOTHING, the person should still STATE that to herself and anyone else she is asking advice from. These are you navigation points in conflict resolution.

[Martian Manifesto]

[QUOTE=heart;312652]
Anyway, bottomline I had to cut this person out of my life because they are always manupulating, always draining, always pushing the limits an never will listen to me when I have told them over and over and over what needs to change, even they say "well just put me in my place when I step over the line." sorry folks! I am not responsible for holding you to your side of the boundary issue. I am only responsible for mine and for letting you know what I need. I am not a parent or an enforcer.
QUOTE]

Agree 100%. You articulate what your needs are clearly. If they don't respond, then you must shun them. For the OP, maybe use another friend as a buffer in the interim?

[prplchknz]

I didn't have to approach her about taking the dog back. She actually approached me, and said that he's going back friday that she doesn't have time for a dog right now. I was dreading, having to bring it up, but if she hadn't I would have brought it up.

[cafe]

I didn't have to approach her about taking the dog back. She actually approached me, and said that he's going back friday that she doesn't have time for a dog right now. I was dreading, having to bring it up, but if she hadn't I would have brought it up.
:thumbup: What a relief.

I may be a "newb" to this board, but I think you may be showing a lack of clarity on this issue. That or the OP showed a lack of clarity in stating what advice she wanted. I may be mistaken in these points but I don't see them yet. Perhaps it is because I am a "newb".

1) This is an ongoing situation? That doesn't improve your or the OP's position. The says that this has been festering and the heart-to-heart hasn't happened, when it should have, for a LONG time. I thought the heart-to-heart was imperative when this shiet had been going on for a SHORT time. The INFP NEEDS to STATE what is in her mind to the INFJ. You can call that "newb" thinking but I am fairly certain of this as a basic tennant of conflict resolution and management. IF this heart-to-heart HAS happened then I change my approach of course. But I asked this question very early on. I asked because in conflict resolution it shoudl be on your short list of questions to ask. The first being "are you in danger right now?" :) Right after that I usually ask "Does this person know the things you just said to me?"

2) Well if the OP does possess the discernment to know what to "toss" I hope it is any advice of going J. Again, I am going with what the OP stated. First, in the title itself is "...come out unscathed". If you go J you will not come out unscathed from an INFJ, especially if you have to live with them for over half a year. That will be the longest several months ever. And INFPs do not do well in confrontations with INFJs where the INFP can't leave afterwards. INFJs are long-burn haters when they go bad. IF this person is as possibly immature as you say, this is a major concern.

3) I state this only as a generality: INFPs are NOT good at making decisions when their Fi is in overdrive. The first and subsequent posts of the OP lead me to believe this is the state she is in. This could be wrong of course. I don't know this INFP very well at all. But I think most third party observers would say that the OP is quite upset right now. IF this is the case, then another thing she should "toss" is any notion of doing anything with this first wave of emotions. Let it wash over and then make you choice.

4) The OP also made a brief referrence to this person being a friend. I'm assuming this has gone south. But how south? Again, this is like the third effing question you ask in conflict resolution. What can be saved? What do you WANT to be saved? Even if the answer is NOTHING, the person should still STATE that to herself and anyone else she is asking advice from. These are you navigation points in conflict resolution.
People are messy, not neat case studies in books. This is not a therapist's office, this is a an internet forum. Your advice is helpful in a clinical way, which is great, but that's not really my style in informal friendship-ish situations. There's no reason both approaches can't be valid and helpful. I am not about being "correct" I'm about offering opinions and being a morally supportive sounding board. I believe both styles have their place. My style is different than yours but it doesn't invalidate yours. I don't know why you need to be "right."

[Martian Manifesto]

:thumbup: What a relief.


People are messy, not neat case studies in books. This is not a therapist's office, this is a an internet forum. Your advice is helpful in a clinical way, which is great, but that's not really my style in informal friendship-ish situations. There's no reason both approaches can't be valid and helpful. I am not about being "correct" I'm about offering opinions and being a morally supportive sounding board. I believe both styles have their place. My style is different than yours but it doesn't invalidate yours. I don't know why you need to be "right."

You are correct. People are messy. Even when you know them personally. When you are asked advice about people you don't know it gets messier still. I am an INFJ. The OP asked for advice in regards to an INFJ. I went with that direction. I do not have to be right. In fact I do not believe I am "right". I don't really have a say in this matter. It is just a point of view regarding interactions with INFJs. It is an educated point of view in that I have some experience but it is just a point of view. You are free to ignore it. However I will say one thing that you may want to consider and it is this: People are messy and individualist BUT there are basic protocols for doing certain activities (dancing, making war, making love, conflict resolution) where there are well documented methodologies that have a higher percentage chance of success than others. Percentages aren't people. Just like this INFJ is not INFJs. I was working with what I knew: INFJs and conflict resolution. And this is just my personal experience and study. So just like when I engage in a physical challenge with another person, I do understand that each person is different but the type of physical challenge will have a great deal to do with how I approach. Also, in a physical challenge I would size up the person's build, footwork, eye movements INITIALLY to see if my Ni could relate it to any challenge opponent I had faced before thus improving the speed at which I intuit the optimum plan. It also will cut down on errors. This is why hunters go to water holes. It doesn't mean you are going to get anything, the prey could not be into it...but it is a percentages game.

Percentages and initiatory protocols do not replace individual circumstances. Completely acknowledged. They are often useful though. Why reinvent the wheel when you can start with some prior people's work and go from there?

My approach may sound clinical to you, but I have much practical experience with conflict resolution. More experience than clinical theorizing. Clinical theorizing helps optimize and help you start out on the right foot.

If I have offended you, then I sincerely apologize.

Great news on the roommate thing working out as it did. Glad to hear it.

P.S.: I was trying to be as morally supportive as I could, but if I think somebody might try an approach that could lead them to some emotional unpleasant scenarios that might be avoided, then that takes precedence. The guilt would kill me.

[prplchknz]

trust me if I needed a therapist's advice I'd go to one. Which I probably do for some other things. And I was going to go yesterday, but it was too cold and rainy by 3 and I didn't have a jacket with me. 10 it was so warm on sunny then the weather decided to go be all cold and frigid I hate fall and spring I swear the weather is pmsing this time of year.

[cafe]

If I have offended you, then I sincerely apologize.
Heh. Not offended, but annoyed, yes. It's fine for you to be an expert and disagree with what I'm saying, and I can agree you have some good points, but that doesn't mean that your way of doing things is the only way or the best way.

P.S.: I was trying to be as morally supportive as I could, but if I think somebody might try an approach that could lead them to some emotional unpleasant scenarios that might be avoided, then that takes precedence. The guilt would kill me.
It wouldn't kill me because I know what I say is just a stupid opinion and prplchknz is an adult as is her roommate and God knows emotionally unpleasant scenarios are a part of life. People almost never follow advice anyway, so I don't take it or myself too seriously. If I was a professional and operating in a professional capacity or something it would be different. I'm pretty sure prplchknz knows I'm just a thirty-something housewife shooting my mouth off. :laugh:

[prplchknz]

Heh. Not offended, but annoyed, yes. It's fine for you to be an expert and disagree with what I'm saying, and I can agree you have some good points, but that doesn't mean that your way of doing things is the only way or the best way.


It wouldn't kill me because I know what I say is just a stupid opinion and prplchknz is an adult as is her roommate and God knows emotionally unpleasant scenarios are a part of life. People almost never follow advice anyway, so I don't take it or myself too seriously. If I was a professional and operating in a professional capacity or something it would be different. I'm pretty sure prplchknz knows I'm just a thirty-something housewife shooting my mouth off. :laugh:

yup, which is why when I ask for advice on here I don't always follow it. I know her better then either of you, and it's more of the hopefully get an outside perspective, since I'm in the middle.

[Martian Manifesto]

[QUOTE=cafe;313644]Heh. Not offended, but annoyed, yes. It's fine for you to be an expert and disagree with what I'm saying, and I can agree you have some good points, but that doesn't mean that your way of doing things is the only way or the best way.
QUOTE]

Agreed. Both that my way is not the only or best AND that I can be annoying :)