Can Someone Explain INTP Behavior? [Archive]

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sophiedoph

09-07-2008, 06:23 AM

Oso Mocoso

09-07-2008, 07:15 AM

Honestly, I'd love to help you if I could, but I read all that you wrote and I've got nothing. So ... I'll express my best wishes that you can successfully resolve this, but I have no insight into this particular INTP. Good luck! In my experience INTPs can be inscrutable to other types sometimes.

sciski

09-07-2008, 07:23 AM

Edahn

09-07-2008, 09:06 AM

I can definitely relate. I have the same issue with my mom. And with other friends too, on occasion. I've studied psych, done tons of people-watching, and consider myself to be pretty observant about relationships, and I've concluded that it's not a type thing, but move of a group-dynamics kinda thing. It would take me too long to explain the theory, but the relevant part is this:

1. Relationships can mirror group dynamics.
2. Group dynamics can be classified into either in-groups and out-groups. If one group member perceives the other as an outgroup member, it will be competitive, hostile, and make negative attributions about the member's actions. You see this all the time with political groups. On the other hand, if the member views the other as a fellow ingroup member, it will be cooperative, make positive attributions about intent, and give the other the benefit of the doubt. I think of it as a switch (and I would bet that research will corroborate that claim).
3. Close relationships can carry the same patterns of interaction, and it also works a bit like a switch. Sometimes you're in, sometimes you're out, and sometimes one person views the other as in, and the other views that same partner as out. I think that's what's going on in your situation.
4. The solution is really tricky. If you think about it from a research standpoint, outgroups can turn into ingroups (by redrawing boundaries) with certain triggers like superordinate goals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzafer_Sherif) (e.g., say you both want to get away from someone at a party, or your mother in law insults your relationship).

I personally think that familiarity is a good way to reduce intergroup (and relationship) conflict. Do you feel like your husband and you have intimacy? Do you know each other? Is there spontaneity left in your relationship?

Intimacy is a hard thing to come by, especially when people are self-critical. Maybe this is where the INTP thing comes in. Self-criticism and self-doubt seem to be one of the hallmarks of the INTP. It prevents people from opening up for fear of being rejected. As vulnerability increases, so does the negative self-talk, which ends up robbing people out of their spirit/creativity/humor/spontaneity, and eventually happiness. It can be totally debilitating and paralyzing. Inside, he wants to open up, but can't. He associates you with those voices, and begins to push you away too, either thinking you're the cause (and your incompatibility -- e.g., "your a little girl") or you may be the cause. It ends up forming the constellation of attitudes, affect, and behaviors you see with competitive outgroups.

In addition, I also think there's a fear of being engulfed by the other. Everything is perceived as a threat to one's territory and domain because there is a sincere fear that the person will "lose" himself.

Really, I'm not an expert (as you can probably tell) but here's what I would suggest you do. And really, think is only my suggestion:
1. Talk to him and see how he feels about things right now. Try to do it in a way that seems understanding but firm. Don't tell him how he should change, but tell him how you feel when he does things. That should get him to talk about how he feels, rather than turn the conversation into a blaming match.
2. Try and see if you can begin to trace back to the point where things started going downhill. What changed? Were there misunderstandings? Was it gradual? Was there one event?
3. See if you can solicit a commitment from him to try and work on things before the relationship is jettisoned. Maybe 1 month of trying to communicate and then you can both reevaluate things together and see if things are working and where you have to go next.
4. Start to unravel whatever changed in your relationship. There's a specific sequence of thoughts and feelings he undergoes when you interact. I've offered a few ideas, but it's obviously something specific to him. The more you expose that and try to understand it (without trying to "fix" anything just yet), the better. An INTP might look at it as an experiment he's conducting on his own psyche. There are probably some surface problems too. Maybe he doesn't see the similarity between you two. If that's the case, you can work to revive latent, common interests. The thing to remember is to keep a healthy pace (not too aggressive, not too slow) and to try and help each other. He'll have to make a serious effort to try to look into what's going on and to try to help you through this. Monitor the whole process and see what it is you need. If things get too heavy and serious, lighten them up. If you start fighting a bunch, take a walk. Keep it flexible and stay attentive.

That's it. ;)

Also, moved to Relationships from NT Rationale. (I think you'll get better feedback here.)

CzeCze

09-07-2008, 10:05 AM

All I have to say is I feel for you. Like Oso says, INTPs can be inscrutable to other people sometimes and particularly the 'snappy temper' or outbursts that seem to come out of nowhere.

When people stonewall there's only so much that you can do. Normally with any relationship standstill I'd say be non-confrontational, make the other person see you are 'on their side', and you want to really know what's going on. Make a 'safe space' for them to open up to you and be very clear about where you are coming from and what you want to know from them.

Buuuuut, yeah, when the other person doesn't want to talk or to make it work, for me, that's it. I have a couple INTPs in my life like that, and after a few attempts, I just say fuck it. One is my brother so frankly, it doesn't matter how poor our communication is, we''ll always be siblings. The others are my INTP friends, but sometimes their snappishness gets on my nerves and I literally end the conversation right there.

I know, probably not what you were looking for --I personally can't even imagine trying to deal with this in a partner.

Edahn seems to have some actual steps for you.

Good luck!

LostInNerSpace

09-07-2008, 11:20 AM

Does he have a close friend or family member?

You need to sneak around the side with a little abstraction, and you can do that by going through a close friend.

This close friend would preferably be a thinker. You want his friend to invent a problem of his or her own that is similar in key ways, but not the same. You basically want them to get him thinking.

Friend: Oh man, my relationship is giving me heart burn.

If they start with a direct question they will probably get a brick wall response, the most minimal answer to avoid answering the question.

Friend: (pause) – INTPs need time to think

Him: What’s up?

Friend: XYZ has crazy outbursts of anger for no good reason. I think she has lost her mind. I’m not even doing anything wrong. What is wrong with her? Why would she do that? (assuming she is a she)

Friend: (pause)

Keep going with the story. It should be similar enough for him to identify with his own relationship problems, but not too similar.

Friend: I think deep down she knows I’m not doing anything to deserve the angry response. Deep down she knows the anger is not reasonable. There have been so many times in the past she has been reasonable and rational, and I know she will be reasonable again tomorrow. Deep down she knows how to be reasonable and rational. Makes me wonder why she's not like that today? :thinking: in bewidlerment

How is his relationship with his mother?

My own behavior varies a widely between the different people I know.

Spartacuss

09-07-2008, 01:42 PM

cafe

09-07-2008, 02:23 PM

Thought so, too. Ugh. I hate people who go along with something and then bitch about it later because they feel out of control or whatever.
I don't know this for certain, but I'm guessing most Feelers do this. Just because you believe something is the right/good thing to do and you want to do it doesn't mean you're going to love every minute of it and not get frustrated and need to vent.

To the OP: I don't know what to tell you either except that you might be having some kind of gender-related mis-communication or your husband is kind of immature.

Jennifer

09-07-2008, 03:03 PM

I tried to chat with my INTP husband tonight. Lately he's been a bit more snappy than usual, and I wanted to see if anything was up. It was non-confrontational. He very often misinterprets my actions/words and attributes negative intent when there is none.

You can't necessarily blame yourself for this.

Relationships exist as an entity unto themselves and have their own "personality." And then they are comprised of two people each with separate personalities. So the relationship can be unstable / still developing towards maturity, and if either person has emotional weaknesses or growth issues, then that also contributes to friction in the relationship.

INTP is based on Ti + Ne. The focus is creating the internal model. There is an emphasis on reducing life to "models" based on whatever input is coming from the external environment. Other people might have different basis for their relationship with a spouse, but it's very easy for an INTP to analyze it like an object rather than engaging it on a complex emotional level and see it as something that exists outside himself to be evaluated. He will tend to downplay his own responsibility/control over the relationship, the mindset is more passive and he is just a "witness" to it.

(Other types like IxFJ will see it as something to invest themselves into, due to the secondary and externalized Fe focus, and they feel they have more active control over the outcome.)

Put simply, he'll tend to evaluate your behavior as if he has no control over the outcome, he'll pick up on logical inconsistencies, and if the positive things you are saying are not strong enough to balance out negative aspects of the relationship or do not seem to mesh up, he'll become angry and critical.

I told him I'd read an article this morning that said sometimes husbands do this when they feel "neglected" by their wives. This has certainly been a struggle we have since I started working full time, as I am often too exhausted when I get home to do *anything* (and I usually have a migraine). I asked him if there was anything I was doing that upset him, or if there was anything I could do to make him happier...

That's mostly your Fe doing the talking there.

So the conversation seemed to go nicely. He did feel a bit neglected, but we both agreed we are pretty happy, etc. I promised to work on being more attentive, and he said he'd try not to attribute negative intent to my words and actions.

That's him trying to be fair and also P-flexing to the situation, and trying to avoid "irrational feelings" he thinks he's having.

Not five minutes passed when he changed completely. He said he didn't think we would make it. Maybe he should move out. I am an irresponsible little girl and he's tired of babysitting. He said maybe I make myself miserable by attributing negative intent to other people when none is meant (meaning my job).

That's his Ti focus working in conjunction with unexpressed emotional hurt (often attributed to the Fe shadow, among other things). His brain tried to go with the program; apparently he's been FEELING neglected, and he's also tired of any J proclamations you are making about other people's motivations, especially if he feels he is bending over backwards for you and trying to listen to your criticisms of others but feeling your view of them is illogical and unfair.

A bit more background for today: Someone contacted me because they were contacted by the family member of a family who abandoned their two african grey parrots in a foreclosed house and moved out of state. (Dizzy yet?) For the past month someone has been going over once every couple of days to feed and water them, but that's it. This is a terrible, terrible situation for those two birds.

I'll be frank, based on what I can guess here.

They're birds. Two birds. Not even related to you. Not belonging to anyone in your family. You found out about them by a friend of a friend of family?

You say you are overworked, have a migraine, won't spend time with him sometimes, he gets very little of your time (that's what you insinuated here)... and yet you're adding these birds to your list of things to do. You're prioritizing the damned birds against his needs as your husband.

Regardless of your intentions, can you understand why he might be pissed off? And if you consistently do things similar to this, no wonder he feels schlunked.

Anyway, I don't know anybody who lives in the area where they are at (about an hour away). I have already found five families who are willing to adopt the birds but live in the northern part of my state. I talked to the husband earlier to get an agreement regarding my participation. He agreed for me to go down to pick up the birds, bring them back here, quarantine them in the (unused) guest bathroom until next weekend when I bring them to their new family. He noted that they would be my responsibility, but agreed for me to get them. Now tonight he is furious. (???) He states that this apartment is half his so no, they are not coming here. (?!) WTF?

Dear, what do you mean "wtf"?

He was trying to flex and accommodate you.

He also feels like he's accommodating you and your desire to care for birds (BIRDS!?) you have no actual responsibility for? The birds are an hour away. You spend lots of time locating five families willing to adopt the bird. He's offering to do the trip because he's trying to make your relationship work and it's important to you. Now you're going to keep BIRDS in your bathroom for a week? Birds are messy, aren't they? Lots of cleaning? Noise? Whatever else?

INTPs like their space, autonomy, and privacy. Birds are damned intruisive, all things considered. You live in an apartment. He's probably feeling invaded.

He tried to flex. He's too emotionally immature to do it in a mature way long-term. And I'm SURE he's feeling emotionally neglected by you by these things you're prioritizing, and he's not wise or mature enough yet to know how to deal. He tries to Ti it -- rationalize it, flex, do what you want him to do as his way of being supportive -- without considering his own emotional limits and needs, and it's too much for him.

That's what I see. You both have issues to work on in your relationship, and he frankly needs some help with new strategies that involve him standing up for himself rather than just dismissing his own emotional needs. You need to understand that often when he seems agreeable, he is just "flexing" as a strategy, to avoid conflict. You might be reading his expressed intentions as things he is confident in, since you are J and thus just "state your mind" and commitments up front; but you need to read his comments as a desire to make you happy / avoid conflict but not necessarily expressive of his personal desires... and if the disparity gets too big, he'll have a blow out like this. (Likewise, he needs to learn how to treat his own emotional needs more seriously and be more direct in expressing them.)

This is nothing that couples don't habitually work through. I think the conflict is deep-seated and might feel a little overwhelming, but I also think it's something you can both get through if you want to make it work and are willing to work on yourselves independently too.

sophiedoph

09-07-2008, 04:09 PM

Thank you--everyone--for your responses. They have certainly given me a ton to think about.

You can't necessarily blame yourself for this.

Relationships exist as an entity unto themselves and have their own "personality." And then they are comprised of two people each with separate personalities. So the relationship can be unstable / still developing towards maturity, and if either person has emotional weaknesses or growth issues, then that also contributes to friction in the relationship.

This makes sense. He has a job that he *hates* and it drains him excessively. I think his emotional reserves are very low because he's just "struggling to survive" at his job. (He's been there for five years, and despite my urgings to find a different one, he won't.) For the past five years I was basically able to "swing" the extra emotional energy we needed b/c I was in a low-stress job or going to school. Now I'm in the same boat and I think neither of us have the energy to deal anymore. Does that make sense?

INTP is based on Ti + Ne. The focus is creating the internal model. There is an emphasis on reducing life to "models" based on whatever input is coming from the external environment. Other people might have different basis for their relationship with a spouse, but it's very easy for an INTP to analyze it like an object rather than engaging it on a complex emotional level and see it as something that exists outside himself to be evaluated. He will tend to downplay his own responsibility/control over the relationship, the mindset is more passive and he is just a "witness" to it.

This makes *perfect* sense. On the one hand, he acts like he has no control over it, and on the other, he seems to try to make all these "rules" like trying to hyper-control his environment. (Rules include, no opening windows, blinds or curtains--ever. Someone might see in and shoot us. Note: we live in a low crime, middle class neighborhood where all the neighbors regularly have their doors and windows open. I feel like I'm suffocating if I can't have some "connection" to nature through open blinds and real sunlight, so usually ignore his rule and open the blinds during the day. We've tried discussing this rule and there's no discussion. Keep them closed.)

(Other types like IxFJ will see it as something to invest themselves into, due to the secondary and externalized Fe focus, and they feel they have more active control over the outcome.)

Yep. I usually try to do research on whatever behavior is occurring (on my part or his part) and ameliorate it.

Put simply, he'll tend to evaluate your behavior as if he has no control over the outcome, he'll pick up on logical inconsistencies, and if the positive things you are saying are not strong enough to balance out negative aspects of the relationship or do not seem to mesh up, he'll become angry and critical.

Ahhhh. La Luz! When I am more "nurturing" (make dinner, clean the house) he is soooo happy and sweet. When I don't (because I work harder and more hours than he does, and we should be able to get a house keeper but he's afraid they will rob us blind... can you tell he's a prosecutor?) we're more like "pals" but outbursts are more frequent (i.e., several times/month).

I'm considering accepting a job that would have a bit less pay than I get now, but I might have Fridays off... so I can clean and cook and do all the wifely things that keep the house running smoothly. He's not thrilled with the idea of me getting less pay, but I also know from being with him for six years that he's so much happier when I can take care of the domestic stuff. Maybe I will just take that job.

That's him trying to be fair and also P-flexing to the situation, and trying to avoid "irrational feelings" he thinks he's having.

OK.

That's his Ti focus working in conjunction with unexpressed emotional hurt (often attributed to the Fe shadow, among other things). His brain tried to go with the program; apparently he's been FEELING neglected, and he's also tired of any J proclamations you are making about other people's motivations, especially if he feels he is bending over backwards for you and trying to listen to your criticisms of others but feeling your view of them is illogical and unfair.

Again, la luz! He wants to buy me a $2500 camera. I love photography, but God knows we are trying to pay off our credit cards and other debt to buy a house. Actually, he's on this mission to pay everything off--I don't want him to spend that much on a camera. I love photography, and have made it into my business, but 1) he hates my business and thinks it's a complete waste of time despite the fact that it generates quite a bit; and 2) he has told me he doesn't want me going off photographing. I can only use it around the house. He doesn't want me to schedule art shows, he doesn't want me to go to trade shows. If I'm going to use it around the house, I don't see the point of spending $2500 on a camera. The $1200 one I have now is quite sufficient.

So he was upset last night saying he spent 2 hours researching cameras for my birthday and I probably only spent 10 minutes looking at them. This is true: I don't want a $2500 camera when the one I have now works great, and I'd rather invest that money, if for anything, into new lenses or a good color printer. (And, um, really? THAT'S WAY TOO MUCH MONEY WE DON'T HAVE IT!) I think he likes the prestige factor, me being able to say I have the Nikon D700 or D3X.

But then in the same breath he said I only like to go to these shows to talk about my camera while I photograph the subjects. This is not true... I need the subjects so that I can create the products that I sell. And I don't talk to people about my camera--sometimes they ask what I have, but I don't like talking to people, remember? lol

Interpretation? :)

I'll be frank, based on what I can guess here.

They're birds. Two birds. Not even related to you. Not belonging to anyone in your family. You found out about them by a friend of a friend of family?

We have an African Grey and two Cockatoos. My husband *adores* his Grey, it's like his little kid. When he hears of bad things happening to Greys in other parts of the world (like 500 recently found that had been wild-caught and mistreated) he will quickly donate money and track the progress. He adores greys.

One of my biggest customers is a foundation that is affiliated with African Greys. They contacted me regarding the Greys, as they know I live somewhere in the area. They had gotten wind of the situation. The Greys (to us) aren't just "birds" but are very intelligent creatures with complex emotional needs. Actually earlier in the evening dh was saying maybe we could adopt the female as a friend to his Grey, and then place the male in one of the other adoptive homes.

You say you are overworked, have a migraine, won't spend time with him sometimes, he gets very little of your time (that's what you insinuated here)...

Let me clarify. DH and I hang out *all the time.* When I say he gets little of my time, I guess I mean more along the lines of cleaning for him, cooking... Being a wife (unrelated to intimacy). The migraines are in the evenings when I come home from work, yes. I do try to spend more time with him--spending time together (not cleaning/cooking) but he's usually playing a video game and declines my offers of taking a walk or playing a board game. But we usually sit together on the sofa making fun of horror movies for part of the evening.

and yet you're adding these birds to your list of things to do. You're prioritizing the damned birds against his needs as your husband.

Excellent point--I can see how he would feel that way. I am still on a semi cleaning strike. He is a mess unless he doesn't want to be. I can clean the kitchen, and within 1/2 hour of him walking in, it will have his stuff all over the counters. I have been trying to get him to change this for six years and have finally accepted that it won't change. I have talked to him, yelled at him... nothing works.

I'm also mad that he won't allow us to get a house keeper to come in once/week to help out. My whole three years of law school in which I commuted four hours to school, took classes, worked part time, did a legal clinic, all I dreamed about was the day we could afford a house keeper. Because on top of all that, I had to "clean" since he actually made the money.

Now I make more than he does, I work more hours than he does. He gets home at 2 or 3 pm most days. I get home at 6 or later. (We leave for work at the same time.) I'm not a die-hard feminist, but this is fundamentally unfair to me. When I get home and he asks what's for dinner.... and he's been here for hte past three hours...... :steam: (To be fair he's been better the past two months and sometimes actually makes dinner for both of us.)

So I can see how he feels I neglect him b/c I don't have hte energy in the evenings to clean and cook, and don't particularly care for the notion of cleaning my whole weekend (which I did the first four months I returned to work until I began dreading my weekends too...). And if I'm then going to add two birds for a week???

This does make sense.

Regardless of your intentions, can you understand why he might be pissed off? And if you consistently do things similar to this, no wonder he feels schlunked.

Well, this is actually the first time I've done anything like this. We usually bum around together the whole weekend, we'll go for picnics and long drives, or walk at the beach. If I go visit my family out of town (once every couple of months) I try to make it back on Sunday in time to still be able to go for a drive and a picnic.

Dear, what do you mean "wtf"?

He was trying to flex and accommodate you.

Gotcha. I'm very J and always take people at their word. I talked to him about it b/c a year ago I got our third bird, a "rescue" and he was pretty pissed off that I "acted unilaterally" in doing so. So I wanted him to participate and have the option of saying no.

He also feels like he's accommodating you and your desire to care for birds (BIRDS!?) you have no actual responsibility for? The birds are an hour away. You spend lots of time locating five families willing to adopt the bird. He's offering to do the trip because he's trying to make your relationship work and it's important to you. Now you're going to keep BIRDS in your bathroom for a week? Birds are messy, aren't they? Lots of cleaning? Noise? Whatever else?

Well, he wasn't going to drive, just me. And I just sent out an email to a list-serv and got the families. lol It really didn't take a lot of time. We already have three (loud, messy) birds--and we adore them. Dh spends probably 4-6 hours/day with his guy, they are the bestest buds.

INTPs like their space, autonomy, and privacy. Birds are damned intruisive, all things considered. You live in an apartment. He's probably feeling invaded.

This could be, although with three already (and four cats--his cats; think "Engineer's Guide to Cats" from youtube) what's two more for a week, especially when they have been abandoned in a house for a month?

He tried to flex. He's too emotionally (im)mature to do it in a mature way long-term. And I'm SURE he's feeling emotionally neglected by you by these things you're prioritizing, and he's not wise or mature enough yet to know how to deal.

On the one hand yes, and on the other no. He told me he wanted to get me that camera because I'm bored. (This is true.) But why the heck would a new camera make me bored when using my current camera is fine, but I still can't go anywhere to photograph stuff because otherwise he's "neglected"?

He doesn't want me to work on my business. Fine. So I spend the evening asking him what he wants to do b/c I'm bored. If I go in the bedroom to read I'm being antisocial and he misses me. I can't read out here b/c he won't ever turn off the TV and refuses to wear head phones. My options are limited and I'm not going to take up crocheting just because there's nothing else to do.

I don't have the energy--or desire--to clean. Especially when he leaves his shit everywhere just after I've cleaned and despite talks, etc., this doesn't change. If his feelings of emotional neglect are based on lack of "helping out domestically" then I'm not really sure what else can be done.

He tries to Ti it -- rationalize it, flex, do what you want him to do as his way of being supportive -- without considering his own emotional limits and needs, and it's too much for him.

Gotcha. So how do I get him to not have irrational rules/needs, and yet not be taxed by emotional limits on them? :)

BTW, when he's not stressed from work he's soooo much better. I'm thinking a lot of this is just because his emotional reserves are virtually none?

That's what I see. You both have issues to work on in your relationship, and he frankly needs some help with new strategies that involve him standing up for himself rather than just dismissing his own emotional needs.

I agree. He finds other reasons why I should do things that don't include a basis in his needs. Earlier in the year when I *was* neglecting virutally everyone and everything from being depressed at work/trying to start the busienss, he would say things like, "Well! Sophie needs you!" (I did spend time with her--she's my cockatoo--so I think he was just trying to say that he needed me more than what I was giving.)

You need to understand that often when he seems agreeable, he is just "flexing" as a strategy, to avoid conflict. You might be reading his expressed intentions as things he is confident in, since you are J and thus just "state your mind" and commitments up front; but you need to read his comments as a desire to make you happy / avoid conflict but not necessarily expressive of his personal desires... and if the disparity gets too big, he'll have a blow out like this. (Likewise, he needs to learn how to treat his own emotional needs more seriously and be more direct in expressing them.)

Gotcha. The funny thing about conflict is that it seems he brings it up so much. He can be very critical, and I often tell him he needs to rephrase what he says. Out of the blue yesterday afternoon he said, "WTF IS THIS MOUNTAIN OF LAUNDRY ON THE DRIER???" Well, it's behind the closed laundry-closet door, and it doesn't interfere with anything he needs to do. What does it matter? And why say it like that anyway? No need to yell and curse out of the blue, just say, "Hey! Do you know what's going on with this laundry?" Or better yet, ignore it. It's not yours and it's not interfering with anything.

This is nothing that couples don't habitually work through. I think the conflict is deep-seated and might feel a little overwhelming, but I also think it's something you can both get through if you want to make it work and are willing to work on yourselves independently too.

Yep--thanks for the feedback. This is a negative thread, by necessity, but there are a million things that we enjoy about being together, and reasons to stay.

The thing that bothers me is that out of hte blue he will say stuff like "we probably won't stay together" -- later he will admit he just says it to get me upset, and he didn't mean it. He says we'd never separate without going through counseling and really trying to make things work, but I still tend to believe that the D word (or insinuation) shouldn't be used unless someone is serious.

I really appreciate your interpretation, the lights came on and things made sense.

Jennifer

09-07-2008, 05:48 PM

:) Thank you for all the clarification (that helps set context better for trying to understand the dynamics) and for taking my comments for what they were worth. I didn't want to come off too negative but did not want to be too indirect either.

I will think about this and see if anything else comes to mind... lol, he's a prosecutor? That makes things even more fun. :)

sophiedoph

09-07-2008, 06:13 PM

I'm getting (very tenuous) shades of 'sophiedoh pushes me around and doesn't listen to what I want to say'. Is this the case at all? Do you tend to dominate him in conversations? This might not be your fault if he doesn't speak up, but I'm wondering if this is an accurate assessment?

Let's see--he says I don't listen to him (or respect him), yes. This is because I think a lot of his rules are silly and I have to exist here too. He says not to open the sliding door in the parrot room that goes to the patio. One day he felt a bit of moisture on the wall in one little spot. i have no clue how it got there, but he decided it was from the humidity outside. In five years of living here this has never happened and I regularly open the door against his wishes. I open the door because birds are very dusty and if you don't circulate the air properly you can get lung damage from cockatoos. We do have two air filters in there but by the weekend the filters are caked with dust--airing out the room helps this tremendously. (Also, I have asthma and need the fresh air to circulate.)

I have tried explaining this to him. Generally it goes like this: DH makes a rule. I try to explain why maybe we shouldn't follow that rule or why it's unnecessary. He puts up his hand, shakes his head and says "No! It has to be this way!" I think he iNtuitively decides how things should be but can't articulate why, and won't listen to logic or research to show why it should be a different way.

That's just one example. And I disregard it due to health reasons.

On the other hand, I can't make any rules because if I do it reminds him of his (abusive) dad. He's nothing like his dad, for the record, and this is a venting thread that doesn't include the many ways he's helped me overcome depression, distance myself from my crazy family, develop self-esteem, or the ways he encourages artistic expression, etc. He's really wonderful, but this is our challenge.

Anyway--back to the rules thing... I ask him to not put trash on the kitchen counters. I have asked him this for years. I nicely point it out. On the rare occasion I will more aggressively point it out (maybe a few times/year). He doesn't listen or change. I can easily fill a trash bag with all the stuff he leaves on the counters. There are currently four microwave meal wrappers, 10 cat food cans, 6 wads of paper towels, 2 empty juice 1/2 gallon bottles, 1 empty milk carton, and 3 empty cereal boxes. There are also 3 used paper cereal bowls with milk stlil in them and spoons, 1 paper plate with bread 1/2 eaten on it, in the sink, and 2 plastic cups with cereal in them. None of these are mine. I last cleaned the kitchen on Wednesday night.

So my rules of "please throw things away" don't matter, nor does my request that he not soak the counter when he washes his hands in the bathroom (and if he does, please wipe it up before it turns into a gross orange puddle everywhere).

That said, I usually have rational reasons for disagreeing with him when I do disagree (not often) but because I pick my fights I am usually right, and "win." So he feels like I always get my way, when the truth is he's usually getting his way I'm just quiet about it.

Thoughts?

froggywoggle

09-07-2008, 08:38 PM

My thoughts are that in this particular case, personality type is very little to do with it. Relationship repair is a complex subject. It's not a sum you can do in your head, or something you can work out in five minutes of talk with a therapist, or with each other.

I am an INTP male in a relationship with an INFJ female. I realize that her behaviour is probably more "her" than "INFJ". I think she feels the same way about me. There are a lot of INTP+INFJ combinations that would not work, not because INTP and INFJ are incompatible, because I think it's a wonderful combo, but because individuals vary within that personality type to a huge degree.

As a person of strong moral and religious convictions, I see more "strength" and "possibility for failure" between people with incompatible moral and religious views, than anything due to personality type, or related behaviours.

All introverts, yourself included, are going to go into "overload" mode. You know you need to run away when you're overloaded, too, or you are not an introvert at all. Right? So can you be a bit kind and considerate. It sounds like he's the more introverted of the two of you, and you guys are falling into a classic relationship pattern, one I've been involved in before. I call it "pursuer/withdrawer". He seems to feel he's in a corner and is acting in a way that seems uncharacteristically harsh, and perhaps illogical to you. But it's not logical at all. His reaction is emotional. If you were the guy, and he was the girl in this, I'm sure people would say, "just give her some space, and she'll relax". If your relationship has the strength to weather this and other tensions that arise in life, there has to be a repair and rebuild phase in your relationship.

I hope you can find that place, where you guys reconnect. That will undo whatever distance has recently come between you, for whatever reason there is a distance. If your INTP is in fact a very-nearly 50% F/50% T (INxP), then this all makes a lot more sense to me. Otherwise, it feels a little weird, and I don't see much that I understand, actually.

W

sophiedoph

09-07-2008, 09:06 PM

Thanks--again, I don't feel like we are "in trouble." This is one of the semi-annual fights. lol

I just don't understand the behavior, but this morning he woke up right as rain and we have been back to our usual happy-go-lucky, laugh at everything selves...

So is it an angry outburst due to "change" and lack of control over the threat of feathered company for a week?

sophiedoph

09-07-2008, 09:07 PM

Oh, by the way, he's more INTX -- he was 58% P / 42% J on the mypersonality.info test. His T is 75%...

Tallulah

09-07-2008, 11:09 PM

Are you sure this guy is INTP? INTPs aren't generally as controlling as this guy seems to be, they very rarely believe in traditional male/female roles, and they certainly wouldn't get bent out of shape because the house is a mess. Heck, once something's there long enough, it just becomes a blindspot. I would never have a freakout because someone didn't pick up their shoes or move their laundry. Nor would I expect someone to clean for me. I would feel terrible, like I was expecting them to be my indentured servant.

I don't think this guy is flexing a whole lot. I think he's expecting you to behave the way he wants you to behave. It sounds immature to me. Did his mother baby him when he was growing up? It sounds like he wants you to behave in a traditional wifely role in order to make him happy.

Edit--just saw your previous post. I must have replied after the first page. Yeah, I really think this guy is waaaaay more J than P.

sophiedoph

09-07-2008, 11:29 PM

Tallulah

09-07-2008, 11:39 PM

The funny thing is that he doesn't believe in traditional roles, but he is happiest when "being babied." He's definitely an N. He doesn't care that much about whether the house is clean or not. (My dad's an ISJ and was obsessed with it.)

Actually, let me back up. He didn't used to care that much about whether the house was clean or not. He still doesn't wig out over it, but he'll go into his modes of "This isn't how I envisioned my life at thirty!" And he's been randomly cleaning more than he used to. My dad and I are "whole room" cleaners. If I'm cleaning, I want the room to look nice when it's done. He just kind of cleans one random thing--maybe vacuums, maybe dusts, probably not both on the same day.

Not sure if that helps...

He's not that flexible, unless INTPs pout at first and then are ok. (Someone mentioned that they do this.) He only wants to do what he wants to do. But he lives off of spontaneous, and hates planning ahead. He talks a lot about doing things but never does them.

Yep, he was babied by his mom. I told him to have fun with that idea b/c it wouldn't happen here. :) He does his own laundry, ironing, he also vacuums and washes all the floors, cleans the bathroom, and we both grocery shop together on the weekends.

Ah, okay, that makes more sense. I think maybe it's his upbringing that's a factor here, more than his being INTP, as far as expecting you to baby him. I don't quite understand him always expecting you to take on more of the house responsibilities even though you work, too. But that could very well be because his mom did it for his dad and the rest of the family. Most of the guy INTPs I know would rather have a mindmate than a caretaker, though. Perhaps he's trying to squeeze both out of the deal?

I do understand the whole having-a-mini-crisis thing. Maybe he's just trying to control the things he's able to control, and his emotions, which he's not all that experienced in handling, are getting the better of him. Maybe he's clinically depressed and doesn't quite understand what's going on, so he's trying to "fix" his life any way he can? The only times in my life when I've felt out of control were when I was anxious or depressed, but didn't understand what was happening.

It does sound like y'all could benefit from a few counseling sessions, regardless, just to clarify and negotiate expectations for going forward.

Just thought of one more thing: INTPs can be pretty slow to learn or let go of the idealized version of things that they've created in their heads. I've been made very aware of this lately by events in my life that have forced me to re-evaluate. I tend to spend all this time in my head creating this fantasy idea of the best way things can go, and then when I extricate them into the real world, and have to deal with individuals with their own ways of approaching things, which sometimes don't seem like the most efficient or logical way of doing things, it can throw me for a loop. I'll always end up adapting, but sometimes it takes me a while to let go of my ideal, and to stop trying to keep doing things my way--accepting that it might not be my way, even though it seems like the best way. ;-) Most things, I just flow with, and am very, very flexible. Lots of things are important to other people, but not so much to me, so I just flow. But when it's something that's very important to me, and something that maybe my self-esteem is attached to, that's when I have those stubborn moments. And it's almost like mourning to let the ideal go.

sophiedoph

09-07-2008, 11:56 PM

I think his love language is acts of service. He doesn't expect it because of gender roles (he far prefers a mindmate, in my opinion, because we spend hours each week discussing everything from God to theories of the universe to world politics), but he feels loved when he doesn't have to think about S stuff. He likes to know that what he needs will be available--food, meds, whatever. And the more he has to organize his life to make those things accessible (going grocery shopping, picking up Rxs) the more energy it takes away from his already limited resources. (He hates his job.) I used to do all of those things, now I don't.

He definitely struggles with anxiety--we are both on Paxil, and have been for years. He was clinically depressed for hte first three or four years of our relationship, due to his job. That was a terrible time, but in the past two years he's been doing tons, tons better. (The fact that he wakes up before noon still shocks me.)

We kick each other into counseling every couple of years. Most recently we went in July because he was so very miserable with our relationship, and I was on the verge of leaving because I was and had been clinically depressed from my job since January. Our counselor this time sucked and we stopped going after hte second session. My boss also went on a 1-month vacation at that time, and I became sooo much better. As a result, we were both a lot happier and back to our old selves. My boss returned three weeks ago and it's been going down hill again since.

Maybe he absorbs my emotions? I've been stressed out and in tears more frequently again because of my boss--vengeful ISTJ.

entropie

09-08-2008, 12:00 AM

I got a picture of the INTPc meeting: :D

http://www.idigitalphoto.com/blog/images/60sec/Childish-tricks.jpg

runvardh

09-08-2008, 12:32 AM

Tallulah

09-08-2008, 12:48 AM

Sorry if this is off topic; but Tallulah, would you be willing to explain and negotiate something you feel strongly about? What if you and your partner hit a wall in this area, but if explained your partner ends up liking your idea more. How would you deal with that situation?

That's kind of the ideal situation, to me, if I understand you correctly. In the situation I was talking about, probably I'd first try to make my idea work. I usually try to explain, in a very logical way, why it would be better for everyone if we did something a certain way. Usually it's because it's the most efficient way of doing things, in my view. But I don't take for granted that everyone will see it that way, so I try to explain things from every angle, anticipating each roadblock. I always try to take into account whether I'm being selfish or not, etc.

The problem comes when I've explained it, and the other person isn't really listening, or has decided that the old way of doing things has always worked, so we might as well conform to it, even though it's more work, etc.

I guess when I get the most frustrated is when I feel like my idea hasn't really been considered. I mean, ultimately, it's fine if I don't get my way, but I need to know that it's been considered, and not just for 5 seconds before it's dismissed. I need to know that the person has actually considered that there might be another way, and is open to it, if it's viable.

runvardh

09-08-2008, 12:57 AM

That's kind of the ideal situation, to me, if I understand you correctly. In the situation I was talking about, probably I'd first try to make my idea work. I usually try to explain, in a very logical way, why it would be better for everyone if we did something a certain way. Usually it's because it's the most efficient way of doing things, in my view. But I don't take for granted that everyone will see it that way, so I try to explain things from every angle, anticipating each roadblock. I always try to take into account whether I'm being selfish or not, etc.

The problem comes when I've explained it, and the other person isn't really listening, or has decided that the old way of doing things has always worked, so we might as well conform to it, even though it's more work, etc.

I guess when I get the most frustrated is when I feel like my idea hasn't really been considered. I mean, ultimately, it's fine if I don't get my way, but I need to know that it's been considered, and not just for 5 seconds before it's dismissed. I need to know that the person has actually considered that there might be another way, and is open to it, if it's viable.

Nope, you answered my question perfectly. I like the idea of discussing things and actually working out something best for everyone involved instead of what works or someone's individual pet idea. I also figure, if there's a chance it works better I'd rather try it at least once before I toss it.

Jack Flak

09-08-2008, 01:16 AM

entropie

09-08-2008, 01:20 AM

sophiedoph

09-08-2008, 01:27 AM

Here's the only thing I can say about INTP behavior in this context: I, an INTP, have no idea in hell what to say regarding your problem, and the post was a chore to read. This relationship problem might be an intrinsic personality conflict, and unavoidable.

While I appreciate your insight I was not necessarily requesting a solution, but an understanding of the behavior or thought process that would contribute to the behavior.

I tend not to think of it as intrinsic and unavoidable conflict since it more recently developed in the context of stressful work environment and changing relationship dynamics, but the more I can understand about INTP stress responses and permanency of thought, the better able I am to control the environment to set said INTP's mind at ease.

Thanks though.

Jack Flak

09-08-2008, 01:30 AM

Regarding my lack of tact: I think it's usually healthier to trim delusions rather than throw a blanket over someone's bed of nails, so to speak. I am trying to help in my own way.

sophiedoph

09-08-2008, 01:40 AM

No problem :)

froggywoggle

09-08-2008, 03:40 AM

I totally think your guy's behaviours are all him. Nature or nurture, there are lots of things are outside the scope of meyers-briggs. Inability to deal with change, to me, for INTP, is not a classical temperament thing, especially when this is out of the blue. I think I can guarantee there is more going on inside his head than he's telling you. And I doubt it has much to do with the birds staying with you. All the INTPs I know are very flexible. But when they get pissy, and inflexible, there are always underlying reasons. I am not aware of a tendency to manipulate or control. INTPs are usually sensitive sorts and not prone to bullying. They hate being bullied, and they don't end up becoming bullies much.

I am telling you I think there is repair needed in the relationship, because I think that the reason for the behavior is there is more going on there than you think. You might try having the "where are we at, seriously" relationship talk. However you do that, in your own personal relationship language. Every relationship (as someone pointed out) has its temperament and types as well.

An abused person is going to have issues that stem from abuse, but that's not temperament, that's damage. It might be part of them for the rest of their lives, but it's not in the MBTI catalog.

W

Tallulah

09-08-2008, 03:44 AM

Xander

09-08-2008, 01:48 PM

Having blown up at my missus on several points I'd have to say, ignore the specifics...

See when I blow up it's usually the culmination of several things which at the time seem inconsequential but when added together are really annoying. Some times it's actually partially that I'm wound up by such small things which is amplifying how annoyed I am.

Sometimes I just want my SO to be the positivety and energy in my life, not all the time but in general. I'm not a high energy person, believe it or not, and I find most things draining so having someone to cheer me up and keep me going is fairly essential (not that I complain about the times when she needs me to do likewise either).

Oh and also we did have a small hiccup not so long ago where I did walk out and went to my father's house to see him and my sister on my own. It was done, in retrospect, so that I could gather my mind and ensure that where I was was where I wanted to be...

Jennifer

09-08-2008, 01:57 PM

...Just thought of one more thing: INTPs can be pretty slow to learn or let go of the idealized version of things that they've created in their heads. I've been made very aware of this lately by events in my life that have forced me to re-evaluate. I tend to spend all this time in my head creating this fantasy idea of the best way things can go, and then when I extricate them into the real world, and have to deal with individuals with their own ways of approaching things, which sometimes don't seem like the most efficient or logical way of doing things, it can throw me for a loop. I'll always end up adapting, but sometimes it takes me a while to let go of my ideal, and to stop trying to keep doing things my way--accepting that it might not be my way, even though it seems like the best way. ;-) Most things, I just flow with, and am very, very flexible. Lots of things are important to other people, but not so much to me, so I just flow. But when it's something that's very important to me, and something that maybe my self-esteem is attached to, that's when I have those stubborn moments. And it's almost like mourning to let the ideal go.

I can identify that. I'm very much a realist (i.e., you have to deal with what actually exists rather than pretending it doesn't), but I also have a strong idealism in the sense of seeing the most efficient/logical long-term solution and what things could be... and where they even might need to go as part of things improving.

So when people choose the less-than-ideal, especially if they have been made aware of the consequences, it really frustrates me if my life is interwoven with theirs. The wrench they throw into things screws up my life too, and I know I have no control over it.

like you, I flex outwardly and bristle inwardly... and every so often I can't contain it anymore and I flip from adaptable to antagonistic.

sophiedoph

09-08-2008, 02:12 PM

So yesterday morning dh woke up, right as rain. Not a problem, just our usual happy go lucky selves... I asked him last night, before bed, what had happened the night before. "Was it my talk with you?"

"No, that was fine. I just felt overwhelmed."

"Was it my request to house the birds for a week?"

"Yes. We already agreed we are at our capacity."

"But what about me talking to you about it before-hand? You said it would be ok?"

"Well, I said that because I knew if I didn't, you would explain the reasons you feel we should. Ultimately, you would win, so I just said ok."

"Ah, ok. I'm sorry you felt you didn't have a lot of say in it. I was asking you because I wanted your participation in the process, and if you did not want to house them, I would respect that. You can tell me how you really feel."

"Ok."

*shrug* :hug:

Lateralus

09-08-2008, 02:28 PM

Wow, that whole episode sounds so pointless (no offense). INTPs seem to be great at making situations worse due to their own lack of communication.

Gen

09-08-2008, 02:35 PM

Wow, that whole episode sounds so pointless (no offense). INTPs seem to be great at making situations worse due to their own lack of communication.

Yup. Lack of communication, lack of understanding of themselves and their needs; lack of understanding what their needs are...
:cheese:

Jennifer

09-08-2008, 02:38 PM

"Was it my request to house the birds for a week?"

"Yes. We already agreed we are at our capacity."

"But what about me talking to you about it before-hand? You said it would be ok?"

"Well, I said that because I knew if I didn't, you would explain the reasons you feel we should. Ultimately, you would win, so I just said ok."

"Ah, ok. I'm sorry you felt you didn't have a lot of say in it. I was asking you because I wanted your participation in the process, and if you did not want to house them, I would respect that. You can tell me how you really feel."

Ah, cool. :) So things should get better, the more he learns to be open about how he feels and thinks about things (rather than just trying to avoid situations that his brain has rationalized away as probably unproductive) and as long as you leave space for him to feel his opinions have an impact.

it is quite a journey, isn't it? :)

cafe

09-08-2008, 02:51 PM

Just thought of one more thing: INTPs can be pretty slow to learn or let go of the idealized version of things that they've created in their heads. I've been made very aware of this lately by events in my life that have forced me to re-evaluate. I tend to spend all this time in my head creating this fantasy idea of the best way things can go, and then when I extricate them into the real world, and have to deal with individuals with their own ways of approaching things, which sometimes don't seem like the most efficient or logical way of doing things, it can throw me for a loop. I'll always end up adapting, but sometimes it takes me a while to let go of my ideal, and to stop trying to keep doing things my way--accepting that it might not be my way, even though it seems like the best way. ;-) Most things, I just flow with, and am very, very flexible. Lots of things are important to other people, but not so much to me, so I just flow. But when it's something that's very important to me, and something that maybe my self-esteem is attached to, that's when I have those stubborn moments. And it's almost like mourning to let the ideal go.
Now that was something that took me awhile to get used to with my husband. Normally stoic, laid-back guy gets all emotional about some small setback because it screws up 'the perfect plan.' :shock: Eventually I figured out it just took him a little longer to bounce back from that kind of thing than it does me. I expect things to go wrong and am usually mentally ready to come up with Plans B through D, so it was hard for me to understand. I think we'd been married about nine years when I kind of got it figured out. :blush: It still throws me for a loop, but I know it's temporary.

Xander

09-08-2008, 03:29 PM

Wow, that whole episode sounds so pointless (no offense). INTPs seem to be great at making situations worse due to their own lack of communication.
Precisely.

If all INTPs were to communicate clearly and with transparency then they'd have less problems. However the fear of incompetancy inhibits their ability to communicate those things which aren't fully formed yet and that just snowballs in terms of stress which makes them retreat even further and faster!

Seriously INTPs are totally retarded.

InaF3157

09-08-2008, 03:40 PM

I totally think your guy's behaviours are all him. Nature or nurture, there are lots of things are outside the scope of meyers-briggs. Inability to deal with change, to me, for INTP, is not a classical temperament thing, especially when this is out of the blue. I am not aware of a tendency to manipulate or control.
:yes:
This sounds very wise to me. I agree that there's a lot going on with him that doesn't sound INTPish at all.
:yes:

So when people choose the less-than-ideal, especially if they have been made aware of the consequences, it really frustrates me if my life is interwoven with theirs. The wrench they throw into things screws up my life too, and I know I have no control over it.
:yes:
I don't have a problem recognizing or communicating where I stand with something . . . I am pretty straightforward and honest in my dealings with people generally. However, communication is not all there is to solving a problem. The channels of communication could be wide open and there will still be problems. I would get pissy if I had to go along with another person's (to me) sub-optimal decisions. If I kept having to compromise like this repeatedly, I'd eventually flip and go my own way. Autonomy is pretty important to xNTPs.
So yeah, your husband's kind of non-communicative suppression and then flipping out did not sound essentially INTP to me, rather like poor handling of disagreement. Reminds me of an INFJ ex, actually.

sophiedoph

09-08-2008, 03:46 PM

Xander

09-08-2008, 03:46 PM

:yes:

:yes:

:yes:
I don't have a problem recognizing or communicating where I stand with something . . . I am pretty straightforward and honest in my dealings with people generally. However, communication is not all there is to solving a problem. The channels of communication could be wide open and there will still be problems. I would get pissy if I had to go along with another person's (to me) sub-optimal decisions. If I kept having to compromise like this repeatedly, I'd eventually flip and go my own way. Autonomy is pretty important to xNTPs.
So yeah, the suppression and then flipping out did not sound essentially INTP to me, rather like poor handling of disagreement.
:nice:

The one thing of Hustler's which I recall as useful...
"Don't play by their rules"

Comes in handy when those sub optimal thingies pile up. :D

sophiedoph

09-08-2008, 03:48 PM

Precisely.

If all INTPs were to communicate clearly and with transparency then they'd have less problems. However the fear of incompetancy inhibits their ability to communicate those things which aren't fully formed yet and that just snowballs in terms of stress which makes them retreat even further and faster!

Seriously INTPs are totally retarded.

OK--this makes sense. So he has an idea in his mind of how/why he does/doesn't want something, but can't articulate it. The difficulty in articulating it causes stress, which blows up as an irrational argument that goes "You must do it this way, because I said so!" Largely because they can't (yet) point to the facts that bolster their intuitive belief of how it should go?

Jennifer

09-08-2008, 03:51 PM

OK--this makes sense. So he has an idea in his mind of how/why he does/doesn't want something, but can't articulate it. The difficulty in articulating it causes stress, which blows up as an irrational argument that goes "You must do it this way, because I said so!" Largely because they can't (yet) point to the facts that bolster their intuitive belief of how it should go?

I don't know if the autonomy thing also gets in the way.

Essentially, I desire autonomy. I also desire to grant others autonomy. Put another way, I don't like demanding something from someone else. And sometimes "demanding" can be as little as just asking them, if I'm sure they will feel compelled to do what I want because of their own personality.

Which is why I then often try to just flex to the situation and stuff the emotions. I don't want to demand others to accommodate me.

Which eventually can blow up into the irrational demands that you stress here. And lots of guilt, because now I have demanded from someone and thus violated their autonomy.

So my next move would be to retreat and hide, out of embarrassment and wanting to protect others from my irrational demands.

Xander

09-08-2008, 03:57 PM

If she's not that positivity in your life (for a long period of time), do you find that it effects you substantially?

I feel like my depression/anxiety from my work situation really causes him to have less emotional energy. Like he absorbs it or something... I'm usually happy and positive, but have had much more difficulty being so due to my job.
Bringing stress home from work??? Are you insane?

Firstly that means you'll make him live through your day when you retell it (poss different.. my other half is an ESTP...I get ALL the details) and then you'll be all sucking energy whilst you repair and he'll be feeling like he's living next to a black hole!!

If work intrudes into home then home becomes work. It's that simple. Temporarily most INTPs will put up with a lot but long term it will wear on their nerves and when they snap out will come a list of ALL the transgressions you've made since being born and yes you are liable for each and every one (ESFJ overdrive :) ).

Seriously though get a hobby, go for long walks on the way home, get a dog or fifteen... anything but living to work.

Note :-
My views are a little reinforced on this. It's how my parents split up as well as a present stresser. Just work to pay for what you want. If you can achieve at work then fine but it's not really fair to ask another to also pay for your work. He probably won't just up sticks but also he won't be happy and non happy INTPs usually means cold shoulder and lots of complaints.

Oh and yuz INFJs are pretty impossible to read so perhaps ensure you have times when you make it uncomplicatedly clear to him how much you value him... though if you've been distracted recently don't be surprised if this also doesn't work first time as he may well have found a means of coping which "requires" attention... you know like building clocks or something like that... with me it's computers.

As an aside, I used to rely on my SO to notice when I was getting stressed. It wasn't that obvious to me. I'm more citical when I'm stressed... the points I bring up are still right (hence I don't notice) but there's a whole lot more of them!!

sophiedoph

09-08-2008, 04:05 PM

I don't know if the autonomy thing also gets in the way.

Essentially, I desire autonomy. I also desire to grant others autonomy. Put another way, I don't like demanding something from someone else. And sometimes "demanding" can be as little as just asking them, if I'm sure they will feel compelled to do what I want because of their own personality.

Which is why I then often try to just flex to the situation and stuff the emotions. I don't want to demand others to accommodate me.

Which eventually can blow up into the irrational demands that you stress here. And lots of guilt, because now I have demanded from someone and thus violated their autonomy.

So my next move would be to retreat and hide, out of embarrassment and wanting to protect others from my irrational demands.

Aww... no wonder you guys can be so anti-social. How can one find a balance between giving autonomy and having needs met? Are their environments that contribute to this difficult balance (such as cramped quarters)? Have you ever been in a situation where, when the environment changed, you felt better?

Xander

09-08-2008, 04:10 PM

OK--this makes sense. So he has an idea in his mind of how/why he does/doesn't want something, but can't articulate it. The difficulty in articulating it causes stress, which blows up as an irrational argument that goes "You must do it this way, because I said so!" Largely because they can't (yet) point to the facts that bolster their intuitive belief of how it should go?
Okay I used to live in very close proximity to my SOs parents. They are a close knit lot and so would always plan days out and such. I'd be asked if I minded and because I had no fully formed response I'd just shrug and comply. Of course once the day arrived my brain had kicked in and I had thousands of reasons not to comply... which would usually naff up the arrangements.

My SO made a request to inform her if I had any reservations about any idea she asked me about. After that the problems reduced... of course so too did her habit of going out all the time... which was annoying as I wanted to make the decision for me and not "us".

That's something... the whole idea of "us" is nto exactly a nice one.. I am "me" and you are "you"... what's wrong with that? Why does there have to be a third person called "us" with the attributes of some idealised creation?

(Don't know if any of this helps)

Xander

09-08-2008, 04:13 PM

Aww... no wonder you guys can be so anti-social. How can one find a balance between giving autonomy and having needs met? Are their environments that contribute to this difficult balance (such as cramped quarters)? Have you ever been in a situation where, when the environment changed, you felt better?
No that's why we want to be independant. We don't like dictating to others or being dictated to. Hence we prefer to just look after ourselves.

Jack Flak

09-08-2008, 04:14 PM

No that's why we want to be independant. We don't like dictating to others or being dictated to. Hence we prefer to just look after ourselves.
True, generally. Generally=My Favorite Word

Lateralus

09-08-2008, 04:16 PM

Precisely.

If all INTPs were to communicate clearly and with transparency then they'd have less problems. However the fear of incompetancy inhibits their ability to communicate those things which aren't fully formed yet and that just snowballs in terms of stress which makes them retreat even further and faster!

Seriously INTPs are totally retarded.
That's extremely frustrating for someone like me, who's generally open and communicative. I probably over-compensate a little, trying to make sure they understand that I'm not trying to be manipulative or whatever, but that never worked. It's not that I expect an INTP to be equally communicative, but I need some sort of feed back...anything. I've had more success talking to walls, sometimes.

InaF3157

09-08-2008, 04:20 PM

:huh: being uncommunicative is an INTP trait now?

cafe

09-08-2008, 04:22 PM

Xander

09-08-2008, 04:22 PM

True, generally. Generally=My Favorite Word
Generally such words are of use in general conversation and as such deserve more attention, generally, than most other words.

:D
That's extremely frustrating for someone like me, who's generally open and communicative. I probably over-compensate a little, trying to make sure they understand that I'm not trying to be manipulative or whatever, but that never worked. It's not that I expect an INTP to be equally communicative, but I need some sort of feed back...anything. I've had more success talking to walls, sometimes.
Hence the idea... just say it and quite trying to get it "right".

I have to wonder who I was trying to get it right for... I'm not sure it was for me but I'm totally confused as to who else it could be for..

Oh and I generally chat to NFs. If I get bored or they clam up I just press the red button and sit back for a while :devil:

Xander

09-08-2008, 04:23 PM

:huh: being uncommunicative is an INTP trait now?
Shhhh.

InaF3157

09-08-2008, 04:26 PM

Wut in hell is going on here? That is not a descriptor that has fit me at any point . . . nor most of the INTPs I've observed. As a matter of fact, being the opposite has gotten me into a fair amount of trouble. I can understand non-confrontational . . . if it's clear someone is a half-cocked pistol it doesn't make a lot of sense to bother trying to reason with them. But otherwise? summat ain't right.

Xander

09-08-2008, 04:28 PM

InaF3157

09-08-2008, 04:31 PM

INTPs tend to be 5s. 5s are about as communicative as stone. Hence INTPs tend to be uncommunicative.

You iz not a 5.

Still...

Shhh...

Last I checked, I am too a 5. You're a 9, however. :cheese:
So does this brick wall thing only hold for enneagram 5 INTPs?

5s aren't chatterboxes, it's true, nor am I. but that's not required to let people know what's up. I'll grunt out a few terse words myself. ;)

Jack Flak

09-08-2008, 04:33 PM

I'm a 5w4 sx, and more like a big truck. /ridiculous

InaF3157

09-08-2008, 04:33 PM

:laugh:

cafe

09-08-2008, 04:35 PM

I'm a 9 and I'm still more confrontational than my husband.

Xander

09-08-2008, 04:47 PM

Last I checked, I am too a 5. You're a 9, however. :cheese:
So does this brick wall thing only hold for enneagram 5 INTPs?

5s aren't chatterboxes, it's true, nor am I. but that's not required to let people know what's up. I'll grunt out a few terse words myself. ;)
The thing is can anyone understand the relevance of those few terse words or do you have to remove their vital organs later?
I'm a 5w4 sx, and more like a big truck. /ridiculous
We're not on about dress size... shh (will investigate later... your enneagram that is not your dress size).
I'm a 9 and I'm still more confrontational than my husband.
I'm a 9 and more confrontational than my ENFJ mate (no idea what enneagram he is). 9s can be confrontational... it's just be blast and then rush back to the tranquility faster. We beat the crowds... even them who put their towels down in the morning... we rock :D

InaF3157

09-08-2008, 04:53 PM

The thing is can anyone understand the relevance of those few terse words or do you have to remove their vital organs later?

It works, for the most part. But I'm more likely to freeze the rascals out than disembowel them.
I'm not very communicative about feely stuff, but I generally let people know my wishes on a general operating basis and encourage them to do the same. If it's one thing I hate it's people getting mad at me for failing to read their minds.

I'm a 9 and more confrontational than my ENFJ mate (no idea what enneagram he is). 9s can be confrontational... it's just be blast and then rush back to the tranquility faster. We beat the crowds... even them who put their towels down in the morning... we rock :D
I think part of why I let people know where I stand is that I don't want it to come to a messy confrontation. Call it preventive defusing of the situation.

Lateralus

09-08-2008, 04:57 PM

I think part of why I let people know where I stand is that I don't want it to come to a messy confrontation. Call it preventive defusing of the situation.
Perhaps you're a more mature INTP? My youngest brother (an INTP) is horrible about holding things in until the situation explodes.

Xander

09-08-2008, 04:59 PM

It works, for the most part. But I'm more likely to freeze the rascals out than disembowel them.
Female. Nuff said.
I'm not very communicative about feely stuff, but I generally let people know my wishes on a general operating basis and encourage them to do the same. If it's one thing I hate it's people getting mad at me for failing to read their minds.
As I've said to another before this day, breed widely so this trait may take hold.

Oh... hang on...now I have to alter to "God damn personal imprinted version of INTP 5s".. it just doesn't zing like before :(
I think part of why I let people know where I stand is that I don't want it to come to a messy confrontation. Call it preventive defusing of the situation.
Oh they still call that confrontational round here... something to do with offending people whilst making things crystal clear... damn oversensitive people!!

InaF3157

09-08-2008, 05:02 PM

Perhaps you're a more mature INTP? My youngest brother (an INTP) is horrible about holding things in until the situation explodes.

I have to think a good amount of this is based more on maturity than type. I know 2 people who habitually do this, and they are feelers. They don't tell you what they want because they want to keep everybody happy.
Though I have to say, those I know to do the opposite of this are both STs.
I mean, I will bottle up some things, but it is not where I stand on things. As said before, sometimes I still won't get my own way. Stretch this out too long and I will flip, but it's not like anyone could say they never saw it coming.

Female. Nuff said.
Yes, we are more highly evolved. :smoke:

Oh they still call that confrontational round here... something to do with offending people whilst making things crystal clear... damn oversensitive people!!
Don't get me started . . .

chatoyer

09-08-2008, 05:04 PM

It took my husband a long time to realize I wasn't like his mother (against whom there is no winning) and that I could be negotiated with. He still won't really argue with me, but we can throw ideas back and forth and come up with something mutually acceptable as long as I stay calm and avoid appearing confrontational.

That seems like a dangerous combination, the natural independent temperamant type of an INTP with the history of a mother who was needy or controlling or dependent, how does the INTP know that his/her perception of a partner's expectations are over the line when this is happening?

runvardh

09-08-2008, 05:12 PM

Eh, as sensitive as I can be I prefer to just get the problem solved so I can get back to the more enjoyable part of loving a partner. :)

sophiedoph

09-08-2008, 05:12 PM

Bringing stress home from work??? Are you insane?

Firstly that means you'll make him live through your day when you retell it (poss different.. my other half is an ESTP...I get ALL the details) and then you'll be all sucking energy whilst you repair and he'll be feeling like he's living next to a black hole!!

If work intrudes into home then home becomes work. It's that simple. Temporarily most INTPs will put up with a lot but long term it will wear on their nerves and when they snap out will come a list of ALL the transgressions you've made since being born and yes you are liable for each and every one (ESFJ overdrive :) ).

Seriously though get a hobby, go for long walks on the way home, get a dog or fifteen... anything but living to work.

Note :-
My views are a little reinforced on this. It's how my parents split up as well as a present stresser. Just work to pay for what you want. If you can achieve at work then fine but it's not really fair to ask another to also pay for your work. He probably won't just up sticks but also he won't be happy and non happy INTPs usually means cold shoulder and lots of complaints.

Oh and yuz INFJs are pretty impossible to read so perhaps ensure you have times when you make it uncomplicatedly clear to him how much you value him... though if you've been distracted recently don't be surprised if this also doesn't work first time as he may well have found a means of coping which "requires" attention... you know like building clocks or something like that... with me it's computers.

As an aside, I used to rely on my SO to notice when I was getting stressed. It wasn't that obvious to me. I'm more citical when I'm stressed... the points I bring up are still right (hence I don't notice) but there's a whole lot more of them!!

I'm trying to debate between working more hours (40+) so we can move to a new house sooner (he'll feel less invaded, we'll have more space) and working fewer hours (32) and being home on Fridays to take care of the domestic stuff.

I cannot quit my current job but I have a job offer now on the table, which is hwat I'm currently negotiating. In either case I will be substantially less stress (hopefully), but between having extra time to take care of stuff and moving sooner, haven't figured out which is better.

He wants me to make more money, but he's also *a lot* happier when someone other than him takes care of domestic stuff.

What do you think?

sophiedoph

09-08-2008, 05:28 PM

Okay I used to live in very close proximity to my SOs parents. They are a close knit lot and so would always plan days out and such. I'd be asked if I minded and because I had no fully formed response I'd just shrug and comply. Of course once the day arrived my brain had kicked in and I had thousands of reasons not to comply... which would usually naff up the arrangements.

My SO made a request to inform her if I had any reservations about any idea she asked me about. After that the problems reduced... of course so too did her habit of going out all the time... which was annoying as I wanted to make the decision for me and not "us".

That's something... the whole idea of "us" is nto exactly a nice one.. I am "me" and you are "you"... what's wrong with that? Why does there have to be a third person called "us" with the attributes of some idealised creation?

(Don't know if any of this helps)

Fascinating. Yes, this sounds like my dh. "You do what you want. Make your own decisions..." The concept of us seems difficult for him to accept (unless it's something "we both should work on, like a diet"--which is silly b/c I'm underweight).

I think as a we--what is best for both of us. He seems to think for himself. lol. If I need to run errands, I go on my own, but if he runs errands he likes for me to go with him for company. But if I need to make a stop while we're both out for errands, he would rather me do that later on my own. It's like it's "his" outing and I'm "coming along" -- not a "we're getting stuff done" outing.

If my family comes over to visit (they live out of town), I should hang out with them, they are my family. He doesn't see why he should be compelled to hang out too. (They come to see both of us...)

So does this stuff sound like we/you/I stuff? Is there any way to foster a more general sense of "we" in cases like this?

Jack Flak

09-08-2008, 05:30 PM

I sure don't like it when people doubt my type, but you sound really ISFJ to me. Very concerned with day to day "goings on." If you're sure of your type, please ignore me.

sophiedoph

09-08-2008, 05:42 PM

You're partially right. I've definitely become more S in the past few years--in large part because someone has to keep the house in order (i.e., not a health hazard).

Believe me though, I don't qualify well for S. *No guests allowed without 24 hours' notice* ;)

Jack Flak

09-08-2008, 05:43 PM

*No guests allowed without 24 hours' notice* ;)
That's a J thing, if I take your meaning properly.

sophiedoph

09-08-2008, 05:47 PM

No, I mean that if htey come over I would die of embarrassment. The dishes are piled up, the counters are full, the trash needs to be taken out, the bathroom needs to be wiped down, probably the floors need to be washed, laundry is out needing to be folded, the bed is never, ever made... I try to get around to things 1x/week and dh does a lot too, but it's generally pretty messy.

ETA: My dad and step mom are both ISFJs. I would never, ever measure up to their cleanliness standards, try though I may. LOL. My step-mom always looks gorgeous, the house is always clean, she makes dinner every night, exercises... Doesn't even leave the bathroom in the morning until her hair and makeup are done.

If my makeup is on and my hair is done my husband asks why I'm all dressed up. :) I'm clean, just not *that* concerned with appearance. lol

Jack Flak

09-08-2008, 05:48 PM

Hehe, OK I didn't take it properly then. Good show.

cafe

09-08-2008, 06:14 PM

That seems like a dangerous combination, the natural independent temperamant type of an INTP with the history of a mother who was needy or controlling or dependent, how does the INTP know that his/her perception of a partner's expectations are over the line when this is happening?
I don't know how it works for others, but mine seemed to err on the side of them being over the line. :D He does much better now, but I suspect we wouldn't have worked as a dual-earner family with children.

Xander

09-08-2008, 07:32 PM

Fascinating. Yes, this sounds like my dh. "You do what you want. Make your own decisions..." The concept of us seems difficult for him to accept (unless it's something "we both should work on, like a diet"--which is silly b/c I'm underweight).

I think as a we--what is best for both of us. He seems to think for himself. lol. If I need to run errands, I go on my own, but if he runs errands he likes for me to go with him for company. But if I need to make a stop while we're both out for errands, he would rather me do that later on my own. It's like it's "his" outing and I'm "coming along" -- not a "we're getting stuff done" outing.

If my family comes over to visit (they live out of town), I should hang out with them, they are my family. He doesn't see why he should be compelled to hang out too. (They come to see both of us...)

So does this stuff sound like we/you/I stuff? Is there any way to foster a more general sense of "we" in cases like this?
May I ask how old this guy is? The thing is that some of it I grew out of and some of it was beaten out of me whilst working with a bunch of ESTJs. They pretty much broke any kind of "but I'm special". I still prefer it the way you describe but I'm capable of working differently.

I think that some of it has to do with interest though. The relationship must interest him on some level for him to become actively involved otherwise other things will take precedence. Not that I'm saying he's bored or anything like that, just that to engage him you have to work on his mind first and not get so tangled up in trying to engage his emotions.. they take a back seat most probably.

Hell a good example is when I flirt. It's not so much that I'm out looking for someone but it's a fascinating game of subtleties and bluffs when played correctly.

Tallulah

09-08-2008, 09:39 PM

Now that was something that took me awhile to get used to with my husband. Normally stoic, laid-back guy gets all emotional about some small setback because it screws up 'the perfect plan.' :shock: Eventually I figured out it just took him a little longer to bounce back from that kind of thing than it does me. I expect things to go wrong and am usually mentally ready to come up with Plans B through D, so it was hard for me to understand. I think we'd been married about nine years when I kind of got it figured out. :blush: It still throws me for a loop, but I know it's temporary.

Yeah, it's really weird, and I still don't understand it, myself. It actually kind of embarrasses me when I can't just accept and move on. I think we just put more into the optimal plan, rather than having Plans B through D in case the first one doesn't work. Because we just assume in our heads that the first one HAS to work. It's the perfect plan. :smile: And then when we have to go with what seems like an inferior plan, it's like watching an explosion in slow-motion. We know it's going to go wrong and take a lot of extra work, but we've said our piece, and there's nothing left to do.

I think INTPs present a special challenge as mates, because we think of ourselves as being ultra-low-maintenance, but we have these weird quirks that even we don't understand, for all our over-analyzing of everything. :huh:

cafe

09-08-2008, 09:48 PM

Yeah, it's really weird, and I still don't understand it, myself. It actually kind of embarrasses me when I can't just accept and move on. I think we just put more into the optimal plan, rather than having Plans B through D in case the first one doesn't work. Because we just assume in our heads that the first one HAS to work. It's the perfect plan. :smile: And then when we have to go with what seems like an inferior plan, it's like watching an explosion in slow-motion. We know it's going to go wrong and take a lot of extra work, but we've said our piece, and there's nothing left to do.

I think INTPs present a special challenge as mates, because we think of ourselves as being ultra-low-maintenance, but we have these weird quirks that even we don't understand, for all our over-analyzing of everything. :huh:
You guys are just lucky you're so cute. :thelook:

:wubbie:

MacGuffin

09-08-2008, 09:53 PM

I think INTPs present a special challenge as mates, because we think of ourselves as being ultra-low-maintenance, but we have these weird quirks that even we don't understand, for all our over-analyzing of everything. :huh:

"Women were dissatisfied with the marriage most often (33 percent) when they were married to a man who was an INTP"

Yeah (http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/5006.htm).

"The researchers also found that female feeling types (mostly ESFJs) were married the longest and that female thinking types (mostly INTP) were married the fewest number of years."

runvardh

09-08-2008, 10:11 PM

You guys are just lucky you're so cute. :thelook:

:wubbie:

Agreed... :doh: :blush:

Tallulah

09-08-2008, 10:13 PM

You guys are just lucky you're so cute. :thelook:

:wubbie:

:static:

"Women were dissatisfied with the marriage most often (33 percent) when they were married to a man who was an INTP"

Yeah (http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/5006.htm).

"The researchers also found that female feeling types (mostly ESFJs) were married the longest and that female thinking types (mostly INTP) were married the fewest number of years."

:sadbanana:

runvardh

09-08-2008, 11:00 PM

"Women were dissatisfied with the marriage most often (33 percent) when they were married to a man who was an INTP"

Yeah (http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/5006.htm).

"The researchers also found that female feeling types (mostly ESFJs) were married the longest and that female thinking types (mostly INTP) were married the fewest number of years."

This just tells me to pick a half decently mature one and be patient, but that's not news to me anymore.

sophiedoph

09-09-2008, 02:50 AM

May I ask how old this guy is? The thing is that some of it I grew out of and some of it was beaten out of me whilst working with a bunch of ESTJs. They pretty much broke any kind of "but I'm special". I still prefer it the way you describe but I'm capable of working differently.

I think that some of it has to do with interest though. The relationship must interest him on some level for him to become actively involved otherwise other things will take precedence. Not that I'm saying he's bored or anything like that, just that to engage him you have to work on his mind first and not get so tangled up in trying to engage his emotions.. they take a back seat most probably.

Hell a good example is when I flirt. It's not so much that I'm out looking for someone but it's a fascinating game of subtleties and bluffs when played correctly.

Well, I think it's safe to say he's not that interested in hanging out with anyone in the whole wide world. (Except me.) He's *really* antisocial, lol. (And actually really hot for being an antisocial INTP.) His old friends (all two of them) accused me of "whipping" him, but the truth is that he just stopped wanting to go out or hang out with anyone. Anyway, we hang out all the time, but everyone else gives him anxiety/drains his energy.

He' 30, by the way.

sophiedoph

09-09-2008, 02:52 AM

You guys are just lucky you're so cute. :thelook:

:wubbie:

And that your spouses are anti-social too! :nice:

:wubbie:

Not_Me

09-09-2008, 04:00 AM

If you're both working, why is the housework your job? What do he do around the house?

sophiedoph

09-09-2008, 04:55 AM

Ah, now there's a good question. :)

He actually has been doing a lot since my 4-month cleaning strike earlier in the year. But the house is still never "clean."

He vacuums, does his laundry, folds and irons it, cleans the bathroom, mops the floors, cleans his bird's cage, and cleans the litterbox. I clean the kitchen, launder the sheets and towels (as well as my stuff), keep the patio washed down each week, clean my two birds' cages. We both usually go grocery shopping on the weekend together. I usually put in a microwave meal for dinner, or occasionally cook. He occasionally cooks too.

Sometimes we take out the trash--usually I do the inside, and he takes it to the street twice/week.

Xander

09-09-2008, 09:33 AM

Well, I think it's safe to say he's not that interested in hanging out with anyone in the whole wide world. (Except me.) He's *really* antisocial, lol. (And actually really hot for being an antisocial INTP.) His old friends (all two of them) accused me of "whipping" him, but the truth is that he just stopped wanting to go out or hang out with anyone. Anyway, we hang out all the time, but everyone else gives him anxiety/drains his energy.

He' 30, by the way.
That doesn't sound good to be honest. If his "world" is based upon you then whilst that means that you are the centre of it (and should receive lots of attention because of that) you are also the only vent and the first to fall victim to displacement. The thing is that when some INTPs get wound up they are quite destructive and you are standing as the only other person available to blame... plus it's not really good in general to be that secluded... once in your comfort zone it becomes ever increasingly difficult to get out again.

Having said all that, you seem happy... mostly. That's a good thing.

Just try to check that your boy feels like he can go out either by himself or with people... if the options there and he choses to not do it that's one thing... if he feels he can't then he may feel trapped. The feeling of being trapped is what prompted me to disappear off on my SO.

Btw, how many birds and beasts do you have? Doesn't it get a little chaotic?

sophiedoph

09-09-2008, 03:51 PM

That doesn't sound good to be honest. If his "world" is based upon you then whilst that means that you are the centre of it (and should receive lots of attention because of that) you are also the only vent and the first to fall victim to displacement. The thing is that when some INTPs get wound up they are quite destructive and you are standing as the only other person available to blame... plus it's not really good in general to be that secluded... once in your comfort zone it becomes ever increasingly difficult to get out again.

Oh, believe me, I agree. I try and try to get him to join some other groups, meet people, whatever. It's pulling teeth to have him visit his mom, and he likes her!

I suspect a lot of it is energy, and am hoping that when he changes jobs (someday, probably in a year from now) he will find more energy to go out.

Having said all that, you seem happy... mostly. That's a good thing.

Yep. Like I said, this thread has all the gripes, but there are a million wonderful things I love about him. I'd like to understand him better--when he has these silly "explosions" on the odd occasion he always apologizes afterwards and feels badly. I don't take them personally, and they aren't really a big deal, but I'm still trying to understand the dynamics that cause them, and see if I can ameliorate it.

Just try to check that your boy feels like he can go out either by himself or with people... if the options there and he choses to not do it that's one thing... if he feels he can't then he may feel trapped. The feeling of being trapped is what prompted me to disappear off on my SO.

Ah, that makes sense. I would hope he feels comfortable enough to make friends, I certainly try to encourage it. (Heck, I was encouraging him to just find a couple guys who like to play video games to hang out with.) He frequently goes to the gym alone since I'm still at work. I'll check with him on this, though, and I appreciate your insight.:yes:

What was happening with your SO? Did you try to hang out alone/find friends and she always wanted to be with you?

Xander

09-09-2008, 04:44 PM

Oh, believe me, I agree. I try and try to get him to join some other groups, meet people, whatever. It's pulling teeth to have him visit his mom, and he likes her!
With me I'd have to be inspired.. I only phone my father when I have something to say... it works for him though he's an ENTJ. My mother used to get upset though (ISFJ) even after explaining why so I used to make a concious effort to be communicative for her.
I suspect a lot of it is energy, and am hoping that when he changes jobs (someday, probably in a year from now) he will find more energy to go out.
That could do it. As little as we pay attention to our inner happiness it affects us profoundly.
Yep. Like I said, this thread has all the gripes, but there are a million wonderful things I love about him. I'd like to understand him better--when he has these silly "explosions" on the odd occasion he always apologizes afterwards and feels badly. I don't take them personally, and they aren't really a big deal, but I'm still trying to understand the dynamics that cause them, and see if I can ameliorate it.
Oh no!! Don't try to do that directly... INTP = auto resistance to exterior control. I haven't met one yet that doesn't have that (well I've only met two really but you get the idea).

With the INTPs I've seen grow it's been more that they've seen something wrong with what they do and they've altered it themselves. The things that make the most impact with me are those statements which cut me to the bone but score no points... ie they're not designed to persuade me or prove how wonderful the speaker is but purely insight.

Example, one ENFP mate said to me "I'd rather live life than just observe it" and that set of a cascade of thinking into what this meant to me. Now I'm much happier with my satus quo of observation versus "living"... the statement has less effect now, I'm no longer hurt by it but it's lesson remains.

I'd also recommend reading all the INTP profile descriptions which you can lay your hands upon... just try to see the personality of the person who wrote them.. often people slant their descriptions to suit their own paradigm.
Ah, that makes sense. I would hope he feels comfortable enough to make friends, I certainly try to encourage it. (Heck, I was encouraging him to just find a couple guys who like to play video games to hang out with.) He frequently goes to the gym alone since I'm still at work. I'll check with him on this, though, and I appreciate your insight.:yes:
Well if this is the first big bust up then he can't be doing too bad.
What was happening with your SO? Did you try to hang out alone/find friends and she always wanted to be with you?
Err I guess it was more complex.. I moved to this city to go to Uni. Whilst at Uni my parents split up and so I had no home to return to. I got a job here and moved through till I was living with her. Then my mother died and we had a couple of real bad years in terms of something major going wrong every year. I ended up feeling like she had options, she could move out and return to her parents house whenever she liked (they only lived around the corner) where as I was stuck and if we fell out I'd be screwed. Hence I ended up confronting this demon in a most roundabout INTP style... I made sure she was pushed towards leaving to see if she would whilst simultaneously returning home to go back to how I was before and then see if I felt like returning to her...

Oh and the test thing is more hindsight than planning... don't do planning..

Basically I wanted to make sure that I still had my independance.. I did and I still wanted to share my journies with my SO.. I would hesitate to say I wanted an US even to this day but she brings something along to the journey and fancies travelling with me... who am I to argue with that kind of arrangement? Sure she may alter my course but I'm not planned enough to care really... It's the journey that's fun not the destination.