INJs and Extroverted Sensing [Archive]

Martian Manifesto

09-07-2008, 01:21 AM

Can you please quote it here, Heart? You need to login to read.

Quote:
From "Was that Really Me?" by Naomi L Quenk, pp. 198-202

Jung (1976a) incorporates the three qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing (obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures, and an adversarial attitude toward the outer world) in the following comment:

What the introverted intuitive represses most of all is the sensation of the object, and this colours his whole unconscious. It gives rise to a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality can best be described as an extraverted sensation type of a rather low and primitive order. Instinctuality and intemperance are the hallmarks of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence on sense-impressions. This compensates the rarefied air of the intuitive's conscious attitude. (p. 402)

Quote:
Obsessive Focus on External Data

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types are open to the widest variety of information from the environment--the more the better for them. Fully experiencing the outside world is their greatest pleasure. For an INTJ or INFJ in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, data from the outside world can seem overwhelming. Facts and details in the world demand the attention of the Introverted Intuitive type in the grip, so he or she obsesses about them. This may be experienced by both INTJs and INFJs as a state of intensity and drivenness. Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity.

An INFJ described her obsessiveness and withdrawal from her usual interests this way: "I stew about what's going on. I can't sit still and am restless. I am mentally fatigued and find myself compulsively putting things in order and trying to control everything around me." An INTJ said that when he is in this state, he feels like a top spinning faster and faster. If he is working with tools and getting frustrated and angry, he has learned that it is best for him to stop or he will get hurt or break something. An INFJ described "obsessing about details." He gave as an example:

When I'm using power tools that can cause injury, I will spend an inordinate amount of energy making sure that I'm not going to inadvertently hurt myself when I turn the thing on. I will triple-check to make sure my fingers are out of the way, etc. Usually I take in the world more globally and have less concern about details until I need them.

"I'm more likely to have accidents," said an INTJ. "I'm robotic, forget things, say things backwards;' I'm obsessed with a thought and can't get it out of my mind. I try to control situations and people and engage in strange behavior, like checking on things," said an INTJ woman. And another INTJ woman said, "I can become obsessed by detail. I'm less able to function aqnd make decisions--sort of paralyzed."

An INFJ said, "I alphabetize my compact discs; or suddenly it's time to do tha thing i thought about doing two months ago. I drop everything and do it; or I fixate on smells and sounds." "I organize or clean. I feel pressured and can't think clearly," reported another INFJ. "I nitpick about things in the environment. i bombard people verbally and obsess out loud."

An INTJ recalled the following from his childhood and adolescence:

When my studies were not going too well I would start to develop detailed tables of data, or drawings to support technical/science answers. These were frequently in too great detail, taking a lot of time and usually out of all proportion to the task ad the length of the answers sought--or even irrelevant to the original questions.

Often the external input that becomes the object of obsession is something someone said or even failed to say. When the last client on an unusually busy day left without saying her usual "See you next week," an INTJ therapist became convinced she had made a mistake during the psychotherapy session. She spent many hours going over the content of the session. She felt the only reason the client had not terminated theraqpy that day was politeness, so as not to hurt the therapist's feelings.

A common focus, particularly for INTJ and INFJ women, can be an aspect of their physical appearance. They may become convinced that they have prominent skin blemishes, that others are noticing that they don't dress very well, or that they look fat. In combination with the "overindulgence" manifestation described below, a powerful effect can occur.

Quote:
Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

In effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types, the enjoyment of sensual pleasures is natural, spontaneous, and quite consistent with their focus on the reality of the immediate environment. In Introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, this quality takes the form of sensual excess rather than sensual pleasure. It is interesting that a number of INTJs and INFJs described themselves as becoming "self-centered" and "self-indulgent" when they are in the grip--a descriptor often projected onto well-functioning Extraverted Sensing types by INTJs and INFJs (and by other types as well).

Overdoing gratification of the senses is a commonly mentioned behavior for INTJs and INFJs in the grip of their inferior function. they may overeat or binge. They see themselves as obsessively doing harm to their bodies. A typical "tactic" is to overindulge compulsively and immediately therafter--if not during the episode--berate themselves for their uncontrolled, shallow, destructive behavior.

An INTJ described the experience this way:

There is a clear preliminary state where I am totally apart from the real world. I am not even an observer, and I can completely ignore anything real. It's a nice fantasy, that's all--just abosrbing. But later I become excessively indulgent, getting totally immersed in physical experiences--eating, pulp fiction, TV. But I don't enjoy it. It feels like a dangerous roller coaster, but I'm immobilized and can't get off.

An INFJ said, "I have to get away from reality. I do too much of something--one thing. I eat more or stop eating; I shop for useless things." Another said, "I eat too much, spend too much, watch TV or read excessively to escape. I'm late for everything." An INTJ said her pattern is to overeat, fell guilty about it, wake up in the night and feel worse, get too little sleep, causing her to feel more vulnerable, and then eat more. Another INTJ feels bad about her overeating but not guilty: "I hate it when people brag about how much they exercise!" she said.

Quote:
Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outer World

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types approach the outer world with eager anticipation of all the wonderful experiences awaiting them. For introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, the immediate reality of the outer world spells difficulty and danger. They expect obstacles and problems to plague them as they move through a strange and potentially hostile environment.

Their hypersensitivity to potentially dangerous surroundings can promote uneasiness about people as well. "I can have negative forebodings and feel that people are against me," said an INTJ. An INFJ said she "becomes suspicious. Usually I'm tolerant, curious, and compassionate, so 'out of character' for me means I'm unaccepting and frustrated with the world."

An INTJ said, "I start tripping over things and feel out of control in the external world. I feel like I'm under a dark cloud. I get hung up on some false fact and distort it. I get stressed out about time--too many things and not enough time. I attack others with words and then feel guilty." An INFJ described herself as "shutting down, communicating very little. I misplace things, especially keys and watches. I'm very harsh, critical, not diplomatic. I lose my temper, obsess about details, organize, reorganize, yet nothing gets done."

Anticipating the worst can often elicit anger and blame in INTJs and INFJs. "I'm moody and gloomy, with sudden deep anger," said an INTJ. An INFJ also describes experiencing deep anger: "I am emotionally aroused and am terribly critical of others. I accuse people of never helping me. I become dogmatic and blast people with facts. If no one is around to attack, I write a scathing letter to someone." Another said, "I internally check off all the events that happened leading up to the 'conflict' and then I verbalize this list with a sense that the impeccable logic of it will convince others I am right and I will be vindicated."

The altered state of any inferior function is typically accompanied by a lessening of social controls and therefore more frequent expressions of anger. However, the character of the anger may be different for different types. For INTJs and INFJs the "cause" of distress is often one or more "objects" in the environment. The anger directed at either things or people may therefore be more focused, intense, and extreme than with other inferior functions. Introverted intuitive types may be unable to recognize alternative possibilities so that their perspective becomes extremely narrow. This tunnel vision and externalization of blame can produce ruthless results.

One INTJ said, "I get into verbal raving and am out of control. I regress emotionally and act childish. I feel anxious, exposed, childlike." Another INTJ said, "If I bump my head on a cupboard, I get mad at the world for putting a cupboard there. Others think I'm cursing at myself--but it's really at the inconsideration or stupidity of the cupboard being there." An INFJ observed, "I am angry, unreasonable, totally irrational, closed-minded, and impatient. I feel vulnerable and then become angry at others for it. I can't communicate with anyone. I am hard, callous, unfeeling, and I have not energy to be bothered with anyone else."

Haphazard

09-07-2008, 01:30 AM

Another INTJ said, "If I bump my head on a cupboard, I get mad at the world for putting a cupboard there. Others think I'm cursing at myself--but it's really at the inconsideration or stupidity of the cupboard being there."

:steam: F$%@ing cupboards!

Martian Manifesto

09-07-2008, 02:06 AM

:steam: F$%@ing cupboards!

I know, right?

Kyrielle

09-07-2008, 05:50 AM

Sounds about right. I tend to obsess over things when I'm presented with dangerous objects like knives, power tools, and cars. I'm like that one INFJ that obsessively checks to make sure every precaution has been taken to make sure one cannot be harmed by accident. Though I also think it's due to my awareness of my tendency to space out at the worst times (I'm very afraid of zoning out in the car while driving and forgetting to also drive or missing a cue).

And that cupboard thing, yeah...there have been many poor objects that randomly get kicked and shouted at irrationally for being there or not working properly. *cough* Like my router and internet service provider. *cough*

INJs are scary when they get out of control with Se.

Trinity

09-07-2008, 06:50 AM

Quote:
From "Was that Really Me?" by Naomi L Quenk, pp. 198-202

Holy crap! That's called unhealthy Se not an inferior function.

Athenian200

09-07-2008, 07:42 AM

I lose control in some ways. I might throw something, or curse/insult someone or something (on the angry side). On the sad side, I might just spend all day in bed watching television... possibly even throwing out everything I had planned to do that day in order to do so. I might also consume a lot of snacks or something.

I'm pretty sure I still wouldn't do something like spend money I couldn't actually afford, or actually do something I considered wrong/dangerous for myself (other than harm/insult other people, of course). For some reason, all my restraints that aren't related to other people remain intact. I almost wish it were the other way around. :blushing:

sleepless

09-07-2008, 09:56 AM

Hm... well I can see the "Overindulgence in sensual pleasures" and "Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outer World", but not really the first one. I didn't think Se tried to control and organize things, as it is described here. Wouldn't that rather be Si? Or some judging function?

Thursday

09-07-2008, 10:05 AM

Uytuun

09-07-2008, 11:35 AM

Martian Manifesto

09-07-2008, 03:33 PM

1) Obsessive focus on External Data

To a certain extent, I need to make sure that I have control about the important stuff that's going on in my life and that will influence the future, but I'm not OCD in day-to-day life (cleaning, ordering etc.) at all. I know an INTJ that is, though.

2) Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

Can't say that I do this too much.

3) Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outside World

Reality can feel threatening and very demanding and exhausting, true.

Another thing that I have and that might be related to bad Se is that I sense a barier between me as a subject and the outer world as an object that makes direct sensory experience very hard. I might be touching a flower, but not really feel like I am, the experience becomes a reflection in my head.

INJs don't seem to be very object-oriented.

Yes, I agree about the not being very object-oriented. But I think that actually has to do with obsessing about details and overindulgence in sensual pleasures. Remember, these are NOT typical behaviors of a mature INJ who is in a good place. They are the behaviors of an immature INJ or a mature INJ "in the grip" of the inferior function. So these would be epdisodes of "not working properly".

I am normally VERY not obsessive about sensual pleasures, but when I feel "stuck" (I am disconnected from my Ni or Fe for some reason) then I do binge eat things to make myself feel better, but it also like me "wallowing" in my current state. This is usually breif until my Ni (alone) or Fe (with peeps) figures a way out. It's during the "I don't see any way out" parts that I feel like this.

Same thing with details. Details annoy me. When I feel like life is is effing with me, I usually get adversarial towards Se stuff. This comes out in being better than anybody in the immediate area at a given Se thing and then beating them up over it. I think this is my primitive side's way of getting the world to back the eff off. Once I am back in my zone then it is back to the Ni and Fe. If I spend to much time around or under an environement controlled by SJs, this is almost certain to happen at some point. This is one of the many reasons I avoid them.

Also note that "sensual pleasures" does not have to mean sex, or food or whatever. In fact, the common theme of the "sensual pleasures" is that they are NOT pleasure for the INJ. For example, if I am "in the grip" I will eat snacks because what I really want to do I can't for some reason (not strong enough, would hurt people's feelings I care about, Se is so pervasive that my Ni can't be reached for directions, etc) then I do this as a stress releiver. If this doesn't work after a short while, I will become disgusted with myself for dong this (I'm pretty healthy) so I will usually go to step two of "sensual pleasures" and go to the gym like a psycho to grind the "weakness" or "stupidity" or "anger" out of me, so I can think straight again.

So when I am "overindulging in sensual pleasures" it might not look like that to an outside observer. In fact, the whole mood is much more of religious pennance...not that I am religious, but that would be closer to what is going on. I think that the author mentions that in the expanded post I listed. THAT definition of totally fits me. I hate those times. They suck buttocks.

Haphazard

09-07-2008, 04:41 PM

Hmm. I don't really binge eat...

But I do tend to keep good track of what I eat. I figured out a while ago what happens to me if I don't eat anything substantial for a while (which I'm apt to do), and it's bad shit.

Then again, because of my living situation, I have little control over my meals, what time they fall, what they are, etc. They don't fit my metabolism very well at all. What ends up happening is that I frequently get hungry, but if I eat, I won't eat at the next meal, which would make things... inconvenient for me. So I've got to force myself to eat enough when food is available so I won't get hungry. What ends up happening is hunger feels like failure, instead of feeling like I need food.

Sigh. I am a mess.

Uytuun

09-07-2008, 05:20 PM

Yes, I agree about the not being very object-oriented. But I think that actually has to do with obsessing about details and overindulgence in sensual pleasures. Remember, these are NOT typical behaviors of a mature INJ who is in a good place. They are the behaviors of an immature INJ or a mature INJ "in the grip" of the inferior function. So these would be epdisodes of "not working properly".

I am normally VERY not obsessive about sensual pleasures, but when I feel "stuck" (I am disconnected from my Ni or Fe for some reason) then I do binge eat things to make myself feel better, but it also like me "wallowing" in my current state. This is usually breif until my Ni (alone) or Fe (with peeps) figures a way out. It's during the "I don't see any way out" parts that I feel like this.

Same thing with details. Details annoy me. When I feel like life is is effing with me, I usually get adversarial towards Se stuff. This comes out in being better than anybody in the immediate area at a given Se thing and then beating them up over it. I think this is my primitive side's way of getting the world to back the eff off. Once I am back in my zone then it is back to the Ni and Fe. If I spend to much time around or under an environement controlled by SJs, this is almost certain to happen at some point. This is one of the many reasons I avoid them.

Also note that "sensual pleasures" does not have to mean sex, or food or whatever. In fact, the common theme of the "sensual pleasures" is that they are NOT pleasure for the INJ. For example, if I am "in the grip" I will eat snacks because what I really want to do I can't for some reason (not strong enough, would hurt people's feelings I care about, Se is so pervasive that my Ni can't be reached for directions, etc) then I do this as a stress releiver. If this doesn't work after a short while, I will become disgusted with myself for dong this (I'm pretty healthy) so I will usually go to step two of "sensual pleasures" and go to the gym like a psycho to grind the "weakness" or "stupidity" or "anger" out of me, so I can think straight again.

So when I am "overindulging in sensual pleasures" it might not look like that to an outside observer. In fact, the whole mood is much more of religious pennance...not that I am religious, but that would be closer to what is going on. I think that the author mentions that in the expanded post I listed. THAT definition of totally fits me. I hate those times. They suck buttocks.

Hmm, still can't say that I identify with what you described. When I feel stressed out, I retreat to my cave and watch DVDs the entire day - which I would consider a stimulation of Ni (narrative, imagination etc.). I also don't beat myself up about it, it's my way of dealing with stress.

I have observed the behaviour you mentioned in an INFJ, though.

"I don't see any way out"

More of an INFJ thing, I think. Even when feeling stressed out or wallowing, an INTJ will generally realise what they are doing and that things will be better the next day or the solution to their problem lies in their own hands. At least that's how it is for me. Te --> agency.

karenk

09-07-2008, 05:29 PM

So when I am "overindulging in sensual pleasures" it might not look like that to an outside observer. In fact, the whole mood is much more of religious pennance...not that I am religious, but that would be closer to what is going on. I think that the author mentions that in the expanded post I listed. THAT definition of totally fits me. I hate those times. They suck buttocks.

I tend to go this route because if I don't I go the other route, which I detest. It's supposedly the ESTP shadow in times of stress but if it just continues what does that mean? It's more of a lifestyle.

Haphazard

09-07-2008, 05:36 PM

More of an INFJ thing, I think. Even when feeling stressed out or wallowing, an INTJ will generally realise what they are doing and that things will be better the next day or the solution to their problem lies in their own hands. At least that's how it is for me. Te --> agency.

That seems true... although it also seems like it'd make the INTJ feel guiltier.

Martian Manifesto

09-07-2008, 06:09 PM

[QUOTE=Uytuun;310949]When I feel stressed out, I retreat to my cave and watch DVDs the entire day - which I would consider a stimulation of Ni (narrative, imagination etc.). I also don't beat myself up about it, it's my way of dealing with stress. QUOTE]

I rest my case :) I think many a shrink would call the DVDs all day a classic example of binge Se. The fact that you don't beat yourself up about it means you are evolved. However, most of the INTJs I know (a fair amount) do EXACTLY the same thing. My good friend who edits my writing for me is an INTJ. He watches WWE wrestling all day. He also says it's his method of stress and how he doesn't beat himself up about it. He says this after telling me all the reasons his life has caused him to retreat into said cave to watch said marathon of senseless mayhem. He keeps it bottled up until he can talk to somebody who actually would even get it. That is the service I happily provide as his INFJ buddy :)

Uytuun

09-07-2008, 06:36 PM

That seems true... although it also seems like it'd make the INTJ feel guiltier.

Not if you realise that you need it at that time, I guess...I can cry like a baby knowing that I need to let it out, but I also realise that I'll be back to "normal" the next morning. Or maybe you mean something else.

Martian, I can see the binge aspect, but not really the Se aspect of it. It's mostly an escape into a non-reality for me.

Martian Manifesto

09-07-2008, 06:45 PM

I tend to go this route because if I don't I go the other route, which I detest. It's supposedly the ESTP shadow in times of stress but if it just continues what does that mean? It's more of a lifestyle.

If it continues then the INFJ will become very "good" at Se. Characteristically this is a person who spends much of there time in the shadow. Even if it is channeled into pure (religious) or productive (psychotic cleaning binges, psycotic workout binges, psychotic organizing and preparing binges, psychotic finding flaws in other people behavior, etc, etc, etc) activities, the person will still be wallowing in some serious shadow energy and will usually project this onto others. When INFJs are in their shadow and they take the route of "controlling" it, they usually turn into real jerks about whatever area this is. Very very fault finding. If an INFJ is fault finding constantly, even if the faults are possible valid, then that INFJ is in the shadow.

Martian Manifesto

09-07-2008, 06:56 PM

Not if you realise that you need it at that time, I guess...I can cry like a baby knowing that I need to let it out, but I also realise that I'll be back to "normal" the next morning. Or maybe you mean something else.

Martian, I can see the binge aspect, but not really the Se aspect of it. It's mostly an escape into a non-reality for me.

Yes, but you are "feeding" that reality. The "ping" that goes from the inner world to the outer world goes both ways. The Introverted Intuition directs the Extraverted Judgement and the Extraverted Judgement feeds the Introverted Intuition.

Often an INJ will be in a place in their life where the Ni apparatus keeps going to "places' the INJ doesn't want to go. They suck. The visions and images that it gives are on stuff that you have effing had it with. The Ni is sort of like a juke box that way. Most of the time it does it's own thing and plays it's own playlist. It digest stuff brought in (Fe or Te) and uses this to make new "songs" which the INJ takes a ride on. Well when life sucks, your Ni can often take you on rides you don't want to take.

So there is a little trick you can do, which all INJs learn: You can "load" your Ni apparatus will a high concentration of a type of Se and it will "lead" the Ni apparatus to "work" on that stuff instead. INFJs often use physical Se like binge eating or binge fitness regimes. This overload of a TYPE of Se makes the INFJs apparatus TEMPORARILY play songs that fit that arctypal story INSTEAD OF THE SHIET the Ni wants to go to. And it will go back to it again and again because the Ni is smarter than the persona and it wants to work on it. When INTJs use this strategem, they often overload (an INTJ's actual word) on a type of mental stimulation of a visual, auditory and often fast paced type. This Se overload TRICKS the Ni into working on that instead of what it really wants to work.

So it may appear like it is a mental exercise or that it is all about feeding the Ni, but it is classic Se grip behavior as expressed by an INTJ. All my INTJ friends do it: NASCAR stuff, WWE wrestling, Hard Rock Guitar Solo artists, breaking news, etc.

Most of the INTJs I know refer to this as "zoning out". And when they use that term it is almost always with the tone that they have earned such said zoning out time. INTJs get very very angry if you mess with them during zone out time. Zone out time is off limits man!

Haphazard

09-07-2008, 07:02 PM

Martian, I thought everybody did that?

Martian Manifesto

09-07-2008, 07:16 PM

Martian, I thought everybody did that?

Of course, we can all have shadow aspects in any of the functions. What makes it so noticeable in the INJs is the intensity. If it is pleasant then yes, this is typical of INJ. In fact, if you like I can get that section from the book where the rest is from. Perhaps the misunderstanding is that the Se is always negative? It's not, that was just the focus here. INJs are SUPPOSSED to use Se for zoning out. INFJs often like to gaze at nature while taking a nice long walk. This is good. It is a good way to get out of our Ni heads for a while. These three "grip" behaviors are manifestations of the shadow in type when they feel they are losing control. Control of Se is a core fear of INJs, so it is only natural to obsess and want to control it. All types have a way of shutting down. No type is immune and neither is any person. So if these ways aren't the way then there would be others. There is no type who is "okay" with things that bother their inferior functions and all have "go to" coping mechanisms.

Uytuun

09-07-2008, 07:36 PM

Yes, but you are "feeding" that reality. The "ping" that goes from the inner world to the outer world goes both ways. The Introverted Intuition directs the Extraverted Judgement and the Extraverted Judgement feeds the Introverted Intuition.

Often an INJ will be in a place in their life where the Ni apparatus keeps going to "places' the INJ doesn't want to go. They suck. The visions and images that it gives are on stuff that you have effing had it with. The Ni is sort of like a juke box that way. Most of the time it does it's own thing and plays it's own playlist. It digest stuff brought in (Fe or Te) and uses this to make new "songs" which the INJ takes a ride on. Well when life sucks, your Ni can often take you on rides you don't want to take.

So there is a little trick you can do, which all INJs learn: You can "load" your Ni apparatus will a high concentration of a type of Se and it will "lead" the Ni apparatus to "work" on that stuff instead. INFJs often use physical Se like binge eating or binge fitness regimes. This overload of a TYPE of Se makes the INFJs apparatus TEMPORARILY play songs that fit that arctypal story INSTEAD OF THE SHIET the Ni wants to go to. And it will go back to it again and again because the Ni is smarter than the persona and it wants to work on it. When INTJs use this strategem, they often overload (an INTJ's actual word) on a type of mental stimulation of a visual, auditory and often fast paced type. This Se overload TRICKS the Ni into working on that instead of what it really wants to work.

So it may appear like it is a mental exercise or that it is all about feeding the Ni, but it is classic Se grip behavior as expressed by an INTJ. All my INTJ friends do it: NASCAR stuff, WWE wrestling, Hard Rock Guitar Solo artists, breaking news, etc.

Most of the INTJs I know refer to this as "zoning out". And when they use that term it is almost always with the tone that they have earned such said zoning out time. INTJs get very very angry if you mess with them during zone out time. Zone out time is off limits man!

Mwell, you speak of extroverted judgement feeding introverted intuition, but that would be Te rather than Se in the case of an INTJ...confuzzled. It doesn't seem very MBTI logic proof to have one perceiving style feed and determine the workings of another radically different perceiving process.

Zoning out is what I use to describe Ni going its own course. When I do the binge thing, that's more like numbing the Ni...on that note: is it really feeding the Ni or simply replacing one perceiving process with another? And seeing as what you call zone out time can be pretty positive, can we still speak of abusing Se?

Martian Manifesto

09-07-2008, 07:55 PM

Mwell, you speak of extroverted judgement feeding introverted intuition, but that would be Te rather than Se in the case of an INTJ...confuzzled. It doesn't seem very MBTI logic proof to have one perceiving style feed and determine the workings of another radically different perceiving process.

Zoning out is what I use to describe Ni going its own course. When I do the binge thing, that's more like numbing the Ni...on that note: is it really feeding the Ni or simply replacing one perceiving process with another? And seeing as what you call zone out time can be pretty positive, can we still speak of abusing Se?

* Absolutely correct. That is why it is a bad thing to do. Although it has been explained to me that the inferior function acts as a "weight" in some instances to the dominant function. In the case of INJs, the analogy was given to me that Ni is like a balloon that gets bigger and takes you higher the longer you give it "air"(go inside uninterupted). Se is necessarily "heavy" in order to weigh down the opposite function. This can be done in a controlled way by consciously adding Se (nice long walk) onto your Ni so that you are still in touch with reality. It can also be done not so nice, as in Se is being hurled at you and perforating your Ni balloon. This rough way of interacting with the Se causes "turbulence".

When I read this book, it sounded like the author was describing this turbulence exactly with this "in the grip of the inferior function" theory. I was like A ha, that makes total sense. But I could be like waaaaaaayyyyy effing off :) If you can explain more please do, I am eager to learn.

* I can try and get the stuff on how INJs use the inferior function in a positive way. There is some time spent on that, but I remember it wasn't as much as the time spent on the "eruptions of grip behavior". That was the main focus of the book, although other stuff was touched on to give a global perspective

entropie

09-07-2008, 11:40 PM

Quote:
From "Was that Really Me?" by Naomi L Quenk, pp. 198-202

Jung (1976a) incorporates the three qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing (obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures, and an adversarial attitude toward the outer world) in the following comment:

What the introverted intuitive represses most of all is the sensation of the object, and this colours his whole unconscious. It gives rise to a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality can best be described as an extraverted sensation type of a rather low and primitive order. Instinctuality and intemperance are the hallmarks of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence on sense-impressions. This compensates the rarefied air of the intuitive's conscious attitude. (p. 402)

Quote:
Obsessive Focus on External Data

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types are open to the widest variety of information from the environment--the more the better for them. Fully experiencing the outside world is their greatest pleasure. For an INTJ or INFJ in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, data from the outside world can seem overwhelming. Facts and details in the world demand the attention of the Introverted Intuitive type in the grip, so he or she obsesses about them. This may be experienced by both INTJs and INFJs as a state of intensity and drivenness. Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity.

An INFJ described her obsessiveness and withdrawal from her usual interests this way: "I stew about what's going on. I can't sit still and am restless. I am mentally fatigued and find myself compulsively putting things in order and trying to control everything around me." An INTJ said that when he is in this state, he feels like a top spinning faster and faster. If he is working with tools and getting frustrated and angry, he has learned that it is best for him to stop or he will get hurt or break something. An INFJ described "obsessing about details." He gave as an example:

When I'm using power tools that can cause injury, I will spend an inordinate amount of energy making sure that I'm not going to inadvertently hurt myself when I turn the thing on. I will triple-check to make sure my fingers are out of the way, etc. Usually I take in the world more globally and have less concern about details until I need them.

"I'm more likely to have accidents," said an INTJ. "I'm robotic, forget things, say things backwards;' I'm obsessed with a thought and can't get it out of my mind. I try to control situations and people and engage in strange behavior, like checking on things," said an INTJ woman. And another INTJ woman said, "I can become obsessed by detail. I'm less able to function aqnd make decisions--sort of paralyzed."

An INFJ said, "I alphabetize my compact discs; or suddenly it's time to do tha thing i thought about doing two months ago. I drop everything and do it; or I fixate on smells and sounds." "I organize or clean. I feel pressured and can't think clearly," reported another INFJ. "I nitpick about things in the environment. i bombard people verbally and obsess out loud."

An INTJ recalled the following from his childhood and adolescence:

When my studies were not going too well I would start to develop detailed tables of data, or drawings to support technical/science answers. These were frequently in too great detail, taking a lot of time and usually out of all proportion to the task ad the length of the answers sought--or even irrelevant to the original questions.

Often the external input that becomes the object of obsession is something someone said or even failed to say. When the last client on an unusually busy day left without saying her usual "See you next week," an INTJ therapist became convinced she had made a mistake during the psychotherapy session. She spent many hours going over the content of the session. She felt the only reason the client had not terminated theraqpy that day was politeness, so as not to hurt the therapist's feelings.

A common focus, particularly for INTJ and INFJ women, can be an aspect of their physical appearance. They may become convinced that they have prominent skin blemishes, that others are noticing that they don't dress very well, or that they look fat. In combination with the "overindulgence" manifestation described below, a powerful effect can occur.

Quote:
Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

In effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types, the enjoyment of sensual pleasures is natural, spontaneous, and quite consistent with their focus on the reality of the immediate environment. In Introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, this quality takes the form of sensual excess rather than sensual pleasure. It is interesting that a number of INTJs and INFJs described themselves as becoming "self-centered" and "self-indulgent" when they are in the grip--a descriptor often projected onto well-functioning Extraverted Sensing types by INTJs and INFJs (and by other types as well).

Overdoing gratification of the senses is a commonly mentioned behavior for INTJs and INFJs in the grip of their inferior function. they may overeat or binge. They see themselves as obsessively doing harm to their bodies. A typical "tactic" is to overindulge compulsively and immediately therafter--if not during the episode--berate themselves for their uncontrolled, shallow, destructive behavior.

An INTJ described the experience this way:

There is a clear preliminary state where I am totally apart from the real world. I am not even an observer, and I can completely ignore anything real. It's a nice fantasy, that's all--just abosrbing. But later I become excessively indulgent, getting totally immersed in physical experiences--eating, pulp fiction, TV. But I don't enjoy it. It feels like a dangerous roller coaster, but I'm immobilized and can't get off.

An INFJ said, "I have to get away from reality. I do too much of something--one thing. I eat more or stop eating; I shop for useless things." Another said, "I eat too much, spend too much, watch TV or read excessively to escape. I'm late for everything." An INTJ said her pattern is to overeat, fell guilty about it, wake up in the night and feel worse, get too little sleep, causing her to feel more vulnerable, and then eat more. Another INTJ feels bad about her overeating but not guilty: "I hate it when people brag about how much they exercise!" she said.

Quote:
Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outer World

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types approach the outer world with eager anticipation of all the wonderful experiences awaiting them. For introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, the immediate reality of the outer world spells difficulty and danger. They expect obstacles and problems to plague them as they move through a strange and potentially hostile environment.

Their hypersensitivity to potentially dangerous surroundings can promote uneasiness about people as well. "I can have negative forebodings and feel that people are against me," said an INTJ. An INFJ said she "becomes suspicious. Usually I'm tolerant, curious, and compassionate, so 'out of character' for me means I'm unaccepting and frustrated with the world."

An INTJ said, "I start tripping over things and feel out of control in the external world. I feel like I'm under a dark cloud. I get hung up on some false fact and distort it. I get stressed out about time--too many things and not enough time. I attack others with words and then feel guilty." An INFJ described herself as "shutting down, communicating very little. I misplace things, especially keys and watches. I'm very harsh, critical, not diplomatic. I lose my temper, obsess about details, organize, reorganize, yet nothing gets done."

Anticipating the worst can often elicit anger and blame in INTJs and INFJs. "I'm moody and gloomy, with sudden deep anger," said an INTJ. An INFJ also describes experiencing deep anger: "I am emotionally aroused and am terribly critical of others. I accuse people of never helping me. I become dogmatic and blast people with facts. If no one is around to attack, I write a scathing letter to someone." Another said, "I internally check off all the events that happened leading up to the 'conflict' and then I verbalize this list with a sense that the impeccable logic of it will convince others I am right and I will be vindicated."

The altered state of any inferior function is typically accompanied by a lessening of social controls and therefore more frequent expressions of anger. However, the character of the anger may be different for different types. For INTJs and INFJs the "cause" of distress is often one or more "objects" in the environment. The anger directed at either things or people may therefore be more focused, intense, and extreme than with other inferior functions. Introverted intuitive types may be unable to recognize alternative possibilities so that their perspective becomes extremely narrow. This tunnel vision and externalization of blame can produce ruthless results.

One INTJ said, "I get into verbal raving and am out of control. I regress emotionally and act childish. I feel anxious, exposed, childlike." Another INTJ said, "If I bump my head on a cupboard, I get mad at the world for putting a cupboard there. Others think I'm cursing at myself--but it's really at the inconsideration or stupidity of the cupboard being there." An INFJ observed, "I am angry, unreasonable, totally irrational, closed-minded, and impatient. I feel vulnerable and then become angry at others for it. I can't communicate with anyone. I am hard, callous, unfeeling, and I have not energy to be bothered with anyone else."

I know this does not help anyone, maybe not directly.

But this thread gave me a complete new view on the matter at hand.

Pretty intresting vicious circle there.

unconvinced

09-07-2008, 11:53 PM

Quote:
From "Was that Really Me?" by Naomi L Quenk, pp. 198-202

Quote:
Obsessive Focus on External Data

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types are open to the widest variety of information from the environment--the more the better for them. Fully experiencing the outside world is their greatest pleasure. For an INTJ or INFJ in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, data from the outside world can seem overwhelming. Facts and details in the world demand the attention of the Introverted Intuitive type in the grip, so he or she obsesses about them. This may be experienced by both INTJs and INFJs as a state of intensity and drivenness. Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity.

Often the external input that becomes the object of obsession is something someone said or even failed to say. When the last client on an unusually busy day left without saying her usual "See you next week," an INTJ therapist became convinced she had made a mistake during the psychotherapy session. She spent many hours going over the content of the session. She felt the only reason the client had not terminated theraqpy that day was politeness, so as not to hurt the therapist's feelings.

A common focus, particularly for INTJ and INFJ women, can be an aspect of their physical appearance. They may become convinced that they have prominent skin blemishes, that others are noticing that they don't dress very well, or that they look fat. In combination with the "overindulgence" manifestation described below, a powerful effect can occur.

Quote:
Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

Overdoing gratification of the senses is a commonly mentioned behavior for INTJs and INFJs in the grip of their inferior function. they may overeat or binge. They see themselves as obsessively doing harm to their bodies. A typical "tactic" is to overindulge compulsively and immediately therafter--if not during the episode--berate themselves for their uncontrolled, shallow, destructive behavior.

An INTJ described the experience this way:

Quote:
Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outer World

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types approach the outer world with eager anticipation of all the wonderful experiences awaiting them. For introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, the immediate reality of the outer world spells difficulty and danger. They expect obstacles and problems to plague them as they move through a strange and potentially hostile environment.

Their hypersensitivity to potentially dangerous surroundings can promote uneasiness about people as well. "I can have negative forebodings and feel that people are against me," said an INTJ. An INFJ said she "becomes suspicious. Usually I'm tolerant, curious, and compassionate, so 'out of character' for me means I'm unaccepting and frustrated with the world."

One INTJ said, "I get into verbal raving and am out of control. I regress emotionally and act childish. I feel anxious, exposed, childlike." Another INTJ said, "If I bump my head on a cupboard, I get mad at the world for putting a cupboard there. Others think I'm cursing at myself--but it's really at the inconsideration or stupidity of the cupboard being there."

this doesn't sound like personality types, it sounds like a combination of personality disorders--specifically OCD, low self-esteem, and BPD.

is it really healthy to think of these things as part of one's personality, and not as treatable disorders that can and do effect all types of people? many of the thing's i highlighted above can be effectively dealt with by dialectical behavioral and self-esteem therapy (maybe type makes one more disposed to these disorders, but...even so, you don't have to accept that this is how you are if you would rather not be this way).

entropie

09-07-2008, 11:55 PM

I found myself, too , after reading it, thinking if INTJ and INFJ are the insane membrane of the galaxy

Maybe a complex personality needs for a complex description

Trinity

09-08-2008, 01:25 AM

this doesn't sound like personality types, it sounds like a combination of personality disorders--specifically OCD, low self-esteem, and BPD.

Couldn't agree more.

is it really healthy to think of these things as part of one's personality, and not as treatable disorders that can and do effect all types of people? many of the thing's i highlighted above can be effectively dealt with by dialectical behavioral and self-esteem therapy (maybe type makes one more disposed to these disorders, but...even so, you don't have to accept that this is how you are if you would rather not be this way).

It does seem to be saying this is the accepted behaviour of Se or whatever.

Haphazard

09-08-2008, 01:54 AM

this doesn't sound like personality types, it sounds like a combination of personality disorders--specifically OCD, low self-esteem, and BPD.

is it really healthy to think of these things as part of one's personality, and not as treatable disorders that can and do effect all types of people? many of the thing's i highlighted above can be effectively dealt with by dialectical behavioral and self-esteem therapy (maybe type makes one more disposed to these disorders, but...even so, you don't have to accept that this is how you are if you would rather not be this way).

The line between personality and personality disorder is very, very fuzzy, indeed.

Also, there is a difference between these sorts of things happening sometimes and happening all the time. One can be drunk and not be an alcoholic, necessarily.

unconvinced

09-08-2008, 02:41 AM

The line between personality and personality disorder is very, very fuzzy, indeed.

well, the people in the passage describing their behavior didn't seem happy with it, so that is where i draw the line--if what you do makes you unhappy or makes you feel badly about yourself, then i think maybe it's a problem.

Also, there is a difference between these sorts of things happening sometimes and happening all the time. One can be drunk and not be an alcoholic, necessarily.

agreed, but negative thoughts have a very bad way of becoming habitual, which is very damaging to the individual--including behaviors that are indicative of disorders in a type description seems a little irresponsible--maybe people who could get help won't because they think that is just how they are and nothing can be done about it.

Haphazard

09-08-2008, 02:49 AM

well, the people in the passage describing their behavior didn't seem happy with it, so that is where i draw the line--if what you do makes you unhappy or makes you feel badly about yourself, then i think maybe it's a problem.

True.

agreed, but negative thoughts have a very bad way of becoming habitual, which is very damaging to the individual--including behaviors that are indicative of disorders in a type description seems a little irresponsible--maybe people who could get help won't because they think that is just how they are and nothing can be done about it.

Do you really believe that?

Disorders are... well. Thrown around. Many times irresponsibly. Disorders as labels can do the exact same thing.

What I see from this is which way negative Se leans the structure, not that the structure has fallen... and also, there are a lot of descriptions, I remember, with enneagram, that try to play them as pathological. This may be the same way.

Being comfortable is the main goal. Whether they are indicative of disorders or not is frankly beside the point.

entropie

09-08-2008, 05:56 AM

There is a point. That would have been the point why I accepted the text.

Not everyone sees things proclaimed as disorders as disorders. One can perceive things differently. What can be good and what can be bad.

Some people see the very description of a possible natural state as an opportunity for change.

Apollanaut

09-08-2008, 07:08 AM

I own both editions of Naomi Quenk's books on the inferior function and tend to agree with her descriptions of how inferior Se manifests in INJs.

In fact, her descriptions were so on the nail for me that it was the final verification of my type as INFJ.

That being said, each INJ will manifest the negative qualities of Se in different ways, according to our interests, past history and current life circumstances. For what it's worth, here are my personal descriptions.

1. Obsessive focus on external data.

This hits me when I spend too long doing detailed work. Unfortunately, my job requires this from me. I am a perfectionist when it comes to detail, I obsess over minute, fine details, trying to get them as perfect as possible. When I check other people's work I can spot the smallest typos and spelling mistakes, but I can get very defensive and upset when I make such errors. If I'm tired, I can go round and round in circles, trying to perfect my work, but actually stuffing it up and making more errors as I start to lose control.

At home, I'm likely to go into obsessive cleaning/tidying mode - unable to break the cycle and get the downtime I desparately need until I've completed a demanding list of chores. I get annoyed if my partner interrupts me when I'm in this state - I can easily tip over into stage 3) anger at this point.

2. Overindulgence.

Happens a lot when I've had too many interruptions or changes of plans in one day. This is when I "zone out" and get stuck on some sensory activity. This can be binge eating, but is more likely to involve a visual stimulus for me. For example, I surf the internet for hours, or scan through TV channels unendingly. At first, this can be pleasurable, but If I get stuck it can be become ver unpleasant. The speed of surfing/skimming tends to increase, and the info which attracts me gets more and more shallow (crap reality TV, for example). When I'm in this state, what I really need is sleep, but I can find myself staying up half the night and then getting very upset with myself for doing this. I may be so wound up that I cannot get to sleep at all, in which case the behaviour is likely to carry over to the next day (Urghhh!!).

3. Adversarial Attitude.

This happens if I've spent too long extraverting and is most noticable if there is conflict around me. I build up a charge of physical energy in my body which eventually has to be released. I have evolved enough that I can feel when this is happening, and will state this out loud, but I cannot prevent the energy buildup. It's best if I can escape from the stressful situation completely. This allows me to dissipate the energy by walking at a fast pace until I feel better.

If I am prevented from doing this, then sooner or later there will be an explosion from me. I am a gentle person by nature, so I will not hurt others, but I may pick up objects and slam them down hard, throw things at walls and rant and rave out loud. I've been known to start hitting myself on a few occasions. At the same time this is happening, part of me is furious that I have allowed myself to get so worked up, and this tends to make things even worse. I normally end by dramatically storming out of a room, slamming the door violently behind me.

All of these behaviours are clear warning signals to INJs that we are out of balance in our lives. Living with dominant Ni can be very intense and all-consuming at times (I have been known to forget to eat when caught up in Ni): the antidote is to get out and have some fun, relaxation and healthy self-indugence. Best therapy for me is being in touch with nature, but a good TV show (comedy or Sci-Fi/fantasy is second best.

If we don't take the time to do these things, then our inferior Se will rise up, take control and force us to do them in an unhealthy or obsessive way instead.

sleepless

09-08-2008, 11:51 AM

I would like to point out that even if Se can act destructively, as described here, you shouldn't see it as a "bad" function. In fact, this is also the very function that Ni is, or should be, aiming at. Just as, for example, the INFP needs Te to defend and advocate their Fi values, or as the INTP needs Fe to actually reach others with their ideas, the INJ needs Se to express their Ni, to give a sense of meaning to the outer world. This can be temporarily or partly achieved through art, dance or being careful with what you eat for example, but I think the most obvious way to acheive it is through meditation. I would almost say that all INJs *should* practice meditation; it is like made for us. Of course that is completely up to you, but unless you are completely happy with your life, unless you have nothing left to learn, you might want to consider it.

Haphazard

09-08-2008, 01:16 PM

This can be temporarily or partly achieved through art, dance or being careful with what you eat for example, but I think the most obvious way to acheive it is through meditation. I would almost say that all INJs *should* practice meditation; it is like made for us. Of course that is completely up to you, but unless you are completely happy with your life, unless you have nothing left to learn, you might want to consider it.

Meditation is not made for us. I invariably fall asleep or end up making myself sick with places I do not want my brain to go.

Why the hell do people keep saying this? It may be a 'peaceful' thing to do, but there is no room for peace in my mind.

Martian Manifesto

09-08-2008, 01:44 PM

Martian Manifesto

09-08-2008, 01:48 PM

Martian Manifesto

09-08-2008, 02:09 PM

Excerpt from "Was That Really Me?" by Naomi Quenk:

EXPRESSIONS THROUGH INTERESTS & HOBBIES

For Introverted Intuitive types, relaxing their dominant and auxillary functions may occur through such sensual pleasures as eating, exercising and gardening. One INTJ especially enjoys and appreciates sunshine in spring, autumn and winter. Another like to "go somewhere beautiful - mountains, ocean water". INFJs often mention the pleasant luxury of an afternoon nap. Other Introverted Intuitive types describe craving very hot curries,or escaping by becoming totally absorbed in a mystery or adventure novel. "Escape literature" seems to be a particularly effective way for Introverted Intuitive types to suspend their intense inner focus and vicariously enjoy adventures in the external environment.

An INTJ reports that at times she feels exeptionally relaxed and able to focus totally on observing her environment. At these times she is able to step away from her usual goal-oriented approach and does nto feel she must immediately do something with her observations. Often doing aerobic exercise precedes and stimulates this relaxed state. An INTJ who is a passionate bird watcher tries to arrange his worldwide consulting work to take advantage of bird-watching opportunities. Other Introverted Intuitive types take up hobbies that require careful attention to details and memory for facts, such as photography, woodworking, furniture refinishing or cooking.

Introverted Intuitive types mention going for walks or drives and noticing interesting details, such as the shape of houses, the designs on garage doors, the arrangements of trees and flower beds in parks. One INFJ described talking walks by himself and noticing how many different shades of green he could identify on a nature trail, or closing his eyes and trying to identify as many different sounds as he could.

Using Sensing for relaxation seems to be particularly enjoyable because there is no pressure to acheive any particular goal. "Gardening is an activity I love. I don't worry about performance or doing it perfectly", said an INFJ. "I like pulling weeds, smelling flowers, removing dead flower heads, admiring the colors. All of this nurtures me. Another INFJ enjoys the aesthetic aspects of gardening, the shapes and colors of the flowers, as oppossed to the straightness of the planting rows. And an INTJ's hobby is making flower arrangements. She tries to achieve an overall look with the colors of the flowers, rarely wanting to learn the names of the various blossoms.

*******************

The emphasis on free flowing and not competitive or performance driven is completely true for me. Once that happens the Se will not be enjoyable. As an INFJ, I "compete" in life with my Ni and Fe.

Also, this seems to back up Haphazard's thoughts as far as not meditating so much. It seems like INJs prefer an active, yet not threatening form of active "meditation", as oppossed to the more traditional passive kind. The passive kind lets my Ni take over, and if I want to relax this can be a bad thing. My Ni is very dominant. So relaxation for me often takes the form of a "breather" from my Ni. This requires something stimulating to distract (Se) but not bothersome (stressful Se).

nottaprettygal

09-08-2008, 02:10 PM

Meditation is not made for us. I invariably fall asleep or end up making myself sick with places I do not want my brain to go.

Heh. I thought of the same thing when I read that. Is meditation even considered an Se activity though? Regardless, meditation in the traditional sense is not for me.

This thread was very helpful for me. When I am confronted with Se activities that are necessary for me to do, I engage in all three qualities of inferior Se. I would be careful assuming that those things indicate some sort of mental disorder. That seems quite extreme.

Martian Manifesto

09-08-2008, 02:49 PM

Excerpt from "Was That Really Me" By Naomi Quenk

TYPICAL PROVOCATIONS OR TRIGGERS

Dealing with details, especially in an unfamiliar, can trigger inferior Extraverted Sensing in Introverted Intuitive types. In fact, these types frequently mention that feeling overwhelmed by details often provokes characteristic inferior reactions. Unexpected events that interrupt planned activities can also unsettle INTJs and INFJs enough to arouse their inferior function. One INFJ said that "sometimes it can be something like having to get from the airport to a hotel. It can happen if I'm driving a rental car in a foreign city, and even if I'm in my own country."

Another INFJ reports having the following response when she has to deal with unfamiliar details like taxes and finances:

"I feel like I become instantly stupid. I truly don't seem to be able to take in the explainations and process them. I have such anxiety I can't get through it. I feel panicky inside and desperately look for help from someone who can talk to me on my level so that I can slowly begin to understand."

An INTJ finally turned the accounting for his small business over to an accountant when he found himself becoming tense, irritable, and depressed whenever he had to work on the books.

Of the four dominant Introverted types, it is Introverted Intuitive types who most frequently mention "too much extraverting" as a common trigger for inferior function responses. They describe being provoked by such things as crowds, people overload; noisy, busy environments; feeling that their personal space is being invaded; and frequent interruptions. When faced with such provocations, they retreat inside themselves and become intolerant of intrusions by others. The either express irritation at people's questions or do not respond at all to attempts to communicate with them.

TRIGGERS AND STRESSORS AT WORK

Work settings tht do not permit sufficient autonomy or that offer few opportunities to work alone and intensively, and that do not provide the opportunity to be creative, think independently, and accomplish goals, are extremely stressful and undesirable for Introverted Intuitive types. INTJs and INFJs hold very high standards of excellence for themselves and others, so issues of competence at work are quite important.

INTJs in particular are intolerant of and impatient with ineffeciency and with others' avoidance of problems. They like to get to the heart of an issue immediately, which sometimes makes others uncomfortable. An INTJ finds it stressful "when there are multiple 'agendas' at play so that there is no sense of purpose or direction about an issue that may be a legitimate problem." She added, "I don't suffer fools or foolishness well. I like to focus on real issues." Other INTJs mention as stressful "noise, confusion, lack of order and direction," "working with others and not being able to get alone," "being lef by the nose, not having a degree of autonomy."

INFJs are stressed by similar work characteristics, often focusing on the inability to achieve their vision of growth and development for people. Being unable to work at their own pace and within their own structure is also stressful. An INFJ cited as work stressors "lack of organization and vision by management." And another INFJ is stressed by "unclear goals and expectations and others' unwillingness to fit into my flexible time line." Both INTJs and INFJs find that dealing with details (often seen b them as irrelevant to the task at hand) is extremely stressful.

In a work situation in which the particular stressors for Introverted Intuive types continue over long periods, INTJs and INFJs may respond quickly and intensely to the triggers described here. This increases the likelihood that their subsequent demonstrations of "grip" behavior will be frequent and pervasive. When persistent stress causes them to be chronically in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, they are likely to lose touch with their natural confidence and pleasure in their Intuition and come across as picky, fault-finding, narrow-minded, and unimaginative.

THE FORMS OF THE INFERIOR FUNCTION

INTJs and INFJs appear less likely, than olther Introverted types to get much pleasure from a lessening of introverted "inhibitions", although some INTJ males describe becoming more extraverted in a positive, sociable way. An INFJ said he is "surprisingly more extraverted, especially in the company of strangers; more expressive and less contained." Female Introverted Intuitive types mention increased sociability less frequently, possibly because they, like other women who are Introverts, are encouraged (or required) to develop social skills. However, for the most part, the obsessiveness and discomfort that accompany extraverting their Sensing function is experienced as overwhelmingly distressing for both male and female INTJs and INFJs.

As dominant Introverted Intuition loses it's position of primacy, INTJs and INFJs start to lose their characteristic wide-ranging, global perspective. Their field of operation narrows considerably, and their range of acknowledged possibilities becomes limited and idiosyncratic. They may make more factual mistakes and become careless with spelling and grammar. "I am unable to cope with simple decisions and problems," said an INTJ woman. "I'm frustrated by the physical world - I lose things, drop them, hate them. I don't know what to wear or what to eat. I'm impatient with people and can't read or concentrate." An INTJ said she obsessively looks for the "right" factual piece of information that will solve the problem. "I notice things not put away around the house - things that are broken or things to do." As their hold on their dominant and auxillary functions further diminishes, the qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing manifest in an obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures (I woul change this wording to "overindulgence in sensate stimulus, to be more precisely descriptive of the phenomenon), and an adversarial attitude toward the outside world. For INTJs, tertiary Feeling may abet the process in that the "facts" (real or invented) on which the INTJ obsesses are often used as "proof" that others discount, devalue, or dislike the INTJ. Similar "facts" may by used by the INFJ's tertiary Thinking to prove that the INFJ is inadequate or a failure.

sleepless

09-08-2008, 03:16 PM

Meditation is not made for us. I invariably fall asleep or end up making myself sick with places I do not want my brain to go.

Why the hell do people keep saying this? It may be a 'peaceful' thing to do, but there is no room for peace in my mind.
True that.

Most of the INJs that I know all like to acheive a "meditative state" but it is not the mellow type you think of normally and more of a supreme state of mastery over their Ni.

I think INJs mind needs to "pull back" every now and then so it can let itself reconfigure without annoying input. INJs I think "meditate" almost constantly by most people standards. So "normal" meditation might not cut it. I find that I reach these states of control much better by active imagination and active meditation. For myself, I usually have better luck with yoga, cooking, working out, long walks, grappling with friends who I am very close with (INFJs, INTJs because we are so in synch we don't even need to talk that much). I think that is what most of the "good" manifestations of using the Se well for an INJ seem to look like. I will get the stuff from the book that pertains to the this. Have it in a few....

Hmm. People obviously have different ideas of what meditation is. What I mean by it is not some trance-state, not hypnosis, and not some kind of dizzy relaxation that makes you fall asleep. Rather it is, basically, simply to be aware in the present moment, of your mind as well as your body and the outer world, without judging or making comments. Sit upright and comfortable, keep your eyes somewhat open to avoid trance, stay in touch with reality, relax yet be cautious. Watch all impulses, thoughts and feelings that arise, just watch them as they come and go, be aware of your surroundings... this is maybe the simplest, yet the hardest thing to do, as you have to let go of "doing" altogether, and ultimately of yourself. I don't think I can explain really why I think it's so important... I'll consider starting a thread about it one day.

Martian Manifesto

09-08-2008, 03:31 PM

Hmm. People obviously have different ideas of what meditation is. What I mean by it is not some trance-state, not hypnosis, and not some kind of dizzy relaxation that makes you fall asleep. Rather it is, basically, simply to be aware in the present moment, of your mind as well as your body and the outer world, without judging or making comments. Sit upright and comfortable, keep your eyes somewhat open to avoid trance, stay in touch with reality, relax yet be cautious. Watch all impulses, thoughts and feelings that arise, just watch them as they come and go, be aware of your surroundings... this is maybe the simplest, yet the hardest thing to do, as you have to let go off "doing" altogether, and ultimately of yourself. I don't think I can explain really why I think it's so important... I'll consider starting a thread about it one day.

I am aware of most forms of meditation. My mother taught yoga for many years, my dad did intense visualization exercises in his secret service training, I have done isolation, fasting, extreme endurance events, the kind you are specifying, long walks, free association, trance-state artistic expression, lying on the floor for long periods and just thinking, becoming centered while in areas of natural tranquility, become centered in areas of extreme stress and tactical immediacy.

These are all types of meditation. None is better. It is what you are trying to acheive. I have been meditating since as long as I can remember. I never use the same method, the same way, twice. Even if I was doing it the way you described, I would personalize it everyday for moment of my life I happened to be in. Somedays, the method you mention would work, others it would not. I use all methods of "meditation" I can think of.

I think the author does a very credible job of describing the particular types of "meditation' that appeal to INJs.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I think most INJs are "meditating" by most people's standards most of the time. Most adepts must spend years trying to get into a state where they can access their Ni. INJs do not have this concern. My Ni is there CONSTANTLY. I need zero meditation to get to it. I need to SHUT IT OFF for periods of time to give it a rest. The methods that the author described highlight this feeling among INJs. It may not be true for you but it is dead on for me.

Martian Manifesto

09-08-2008, 03:45 PM

Hmm. People obviously have different ideas of what meditation is. What I mean by it is not some trance-state, not hypnosis, and not some kind of dizzy relaxation that makes you fall asleep. Rather it is, basically, simply to be aware in the present moment, of your mind as well as your body and the outer world, without judging or making comments. Sit upright and comfortable, keep your eyes somewhat open to avoid trance, stay in touch with reality, relax yet be cautious. Watch all impulses, thoughts and feelings that arise, just watch them as they come and go, be aware of your surroundings... this is maybe the simplest, yet the hardest thing to do, as you have to let go of "doing" altogether, and ultimately of yourself. I don't think I can explain really why I think it's so important... I'll consider starting a thread about it one day.

Also, most of the literature I have read recommends that for the INJ to ever come to terms with their Ni, they MUST STEP THRU THEIR INTUITIONS. It has been explained to me that this can only be done by INFJs with their Fe and only for INTJs with their Te. If the Ni is kept floating around too long without RELEASE then you are in big trouble. You may think you have a "handle" on it and you are "letting go" but you are not. In fact, it has been expressed to me strongly that the Ni intuitions can't be truly processed until they have been "stepped" thru by an extraverted function.

It is the tendency of INJs to consult exclusively with their inner world. Meditating while focusing on only the Ni can be dangerous. We alredy have a strong tendency to live in our own worlds that nobody can touch or see. That's fine for a standard operating protocol since we are INJs, but the meditation time should be to balance us. I do the kind of meditation you are talking about constantly. If I am not talking (Fe) or immediately engaged in something (Se) then my mind will automatically start the procedure you are talking about. Feel fortunate, my friend. Most people have to work really really hard to get comfortable with their Ni taking the the lead while you just let it do it's thing. But that is not "balancing" me. That is just how I work. Doing a meditation based on this would be just me being me but more seriously.

In case you are wondering, I am familiar with the Tibetan Book of the Dead and it's many interpretations. Very useful map, but it doesn't tell you how you would adjust this journey depending on what type you are. Different Types should not meditation the same way. I agree with the INTJs on that.

sleepless

09-08-2008, 04:19 PM

I am aware of most forms of meditation. My mother taught yoga for many years, my dad did intense visualization exercises in his secret service training, I have done isolation, fasting, extreme endurance events, the kind you are specifying, long walks, free association, trance-state artistic expression, lying on the floor for long periods and just thinking, becoming centered while in areas of natural tranquility, become centered in areas of extreme stress and tactical immediacy.

These are all types of meditation. None is better. It is what you are trying to acheive. I have been meditating since as long as I can remember. I never use the same method, the same way, twice. Even if I was doing it the way you described, I would personalize it everyday for moment of my life I happened to be in. Somedays, the method you mention would work, others it would not. I use all methods of "meditation" I can think of.
OK, wow, that sounds like a lot more experience than I have. I personally need to experiment a bit with those unfamiliar to me. But I think that in the long run, you would do better to find one method and cultivate it, rather than keep running around between various methods which can become a distraction in itself. And to really be able to get somewhere, you must then do it on a regular basis, like 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour in the evening (what ever suits you).

As I mentioned in a previous post, I think most INJs are "meditating" by most people's standards most of the time. Most adepts must spend years trying to get into a state where they can access their Ni. INJs do not have this concern. My Ni is there CONSTANTLY. I need zero meditation to get to it. I need to SHUT IT OFF for periods of time to give it a rest. The methods that the author described highlight this feeling among INJs. It may not be true for you but it is dead on for me.

Also, most of the literature I have read recommends that for the INJ to ever come to terms with their Ni, they MUST STEP THRU THEIR INTUITIONS. It has been explained to me that this can only be done by INFJs with their Fe and only for INTJs with their Te. If the Ni is kept floating around too long without RELEASE then you are in big trouble. You may think you have a "handle" on it and you are "letting go" but you are not. In fact, it has been expressed to me strongly that the Ni intuitions can't be truly processed until they have been "stepped" thru by an extraverted function.

It is the tendency of INJs to consult exclusively with their inner world. Meditating while focusing on only the Ni can be dangerous. We alredy have a strong tendency to live in our own worlds that nobody can touch or see. That's fine for a standard operating protocol since we are INJs, but the meditation time should be to balance us. I do the kind of meditation you are talking about constantly. If I am not talking (Fe) or immediately engaged in something (Se) then my mind will automatically start the procedure you are talking about. Feel fortunate, my friend. Most people have to work really really hard to get comfortable with their Ni taking the the lead while you just let it do it's thing. But that is not "balancing" me. That is just how I work. Doing a meditation based on this would be just me being me but more seriously.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I mean is reaching Se through Ni. Does that make sense? So essentially, meditation to me is about Se, I agree that "Ni meditation" wouldn't bring much to an INJ. You say that most INJs are often meditating by most people's standards; I think I see what you mean and that is not the kind of meditation I'm after. The importance of "Stepping through your intuition" sounds true to me, except that in my case it would be Se, not Fe/Te. Ni being caught up in itself doesn't do any good. Ni is your starting point, and then "Se meditation" strengthens your Se while letting you maintain your Ni perspective, which can be quite transformative.

In case you are wondering, I am familiar with the Tibetan Book of the Dead and it's many interpretations. Very useful map, but it doesn't tell you how you would adjust this journey depending on what type you are. Different Types should not meditation the same way. I agree with the INTJs on that.
Hm, yes... maybe for example a Se Primary could try more trance-like meditation, with your eyes closed, something that would let them reach their Ni? And some type would do best with some visualization method (not me), and so on.

Martian Manifesto

09-08-2008, 04:33 PM

OK, wow, that sounds like a lot more experience than I have. I personally need to experiment a bit with those unfamiliar to me. But I think that in the long run, you would do better to find one method and cultivate it, rather than keep running around between various methods which can become a distraction in itself. And to really be able to get somewhere, you must then do it on a regular basis, like 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour in the evening (what ever suits you).

* You are partly correct. I am not "jumping" around. You will see this once you try out other methods. In fact you are already using more methods that you know. You are an INFJ. All the methods will take you to different places within your Ni and in different ways. It's like saying, I want to get good at a martial art for example. Wouldn't it better to pick one method and get good at it so you are a master and not a jack of all trades? Yes. Absolutely. BUT you don't fight the same people each day. You don't do the same drills. You don't go at the same intensity. Pro atheletes cycle their routines. Pro businesses cycle their production phases. Pro artists cycle their creative output both in amount and type. Meditation is the same. Use of the Ni is the same. Your Ni is soooo much more powerful than you know. To see what it can do you are going to need to "meditate" in lots of ways. The lots of ways are just different "classes" but the subject is always you and your Ni. Plus if you spar hard everyday for example, you get burned out. This theory applies to physical, emotional and intellectual pursuits.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I mean is reaching Se through Ni. Does that make sense? So essentially, meditation to me is about Se, I agree that "Ni meditation" wouldn't bring much to an INJ. You say that most INJs are often meditating by most people's standards; I think I see what you mean and that is not the kind of meditation I'm after. The importance of "Stepping through your intuition" sounds true to me, except that in my case it would be Se, not Fe/Te. Ni being caught up in itself doesn't do any good. Ni is your starting point, and then "Se meditation" strengthens your Se while letting you maintain your Ni perspective, which can be quite transformative.

* This sounds like an important point you are trying to make, but I am not quite sure what you mean by the start with Ni and then Se. Could you give an example please?

Hm, yes... maybe for example a Se Primary could try more trance-like meditation, with your eyes closed, something that would let them reach their Ni? And some type would do best with some visualization method (not me), and so on.

This sounds like a meditation technique designed to help you step outside your Se not step thru, but I could be mistaken. Could you elaborate some for me?

Haphazard

09-08-2008, 09:47 PM

sleepless

09-08-2008, 10:50 PM

You are partly correct. I am not "jumping" around. You will see this once you try out other methods. In fact you are already using more methods that you know. You are an INFJ. All the methods will take you to different places within your Ni and in different ways. It's like saying, I want to get good at a martial art for example. Wouldn't it better to pick one method and get good at it so you are a master and not a jack of all trades? Yes. Absolutely. BUT you don't fight the same people each day. You don't do the same drills. You don't go at the same intensity. Pro atheletes cycle their routines. Pro businesses cycle their production phases. Pro artists cycle their creative output both in amount and type. Meditation is the same. Use of the Ni is the same. Your Ni is soooo much more powerful than you know. To see what it can do you are going to need to "meditate" in lots of ways. The lots of ways are just different "classes" but the subject is always you and your Ni. Plus if you spar hard everyday for example, you get burned out. This theory applies to physical, emotional and intellectual pursuits.
Hm, I see. I think we have a different approach to it, you use meditation as a way to *shape* your Ni in various ways, to counter real-life challenges, and this is something I have done a little... but now I rather use it, as I was saying, as a way of strengthening Se...

This sounds like an important point you are trying to make, but I am not quite sure what you mean by the start with Ni and then Se. Could you give an example please?
OK, first, my previous post:

I would like to point out that even if Se can act destructively, as described here, you shouldn't see it as a "bad" function. In fact, this is also the very function that Ni is, or should be, aiming at. Just as, for example, the INFP needs Te to defend and advocate their Fi values, or as the INTP needs Fe to actually reach others with their ideas, the INJ needs Se to express their Ni, to give a sense of meaning to the outer world. This can be temporarily or partly achieved through art, dance or being careful with what you eat for example, but I think the most obvious way to acheive it is through meditation. [...]
This is a bit inspired by John Beebe's work on MBTI types, which says that the 4th function is the "cause" of our 1st. I don't know if you're familiar with it, otherwise you can read through one of my previous threads (and possibly the link in my first post, though I admit it's long).

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/7238-your-personality-s-highest-value.html

As I understand it, for example Ni-Se are on the same "axis" and as an INJ the aim of Ni should be to "reach" or "embrace" Se. You can use Se for itself, but then you lose your Ni, or you can neglect it altogether just to have it "revolt" and take over. Also, any function that just "stays within itself" loses perspective; and many INJs are interested in art, for example, as it expresses Ni in a Se way.

Now, on meditation: when sitting down to meditate, you are your normal Ni self; it's not like you lose Ni and start indulging in Se, as otherwise happens sometimes. As I understand it, Ni is directed to the unconscious/half-conscious processes that go on inside us all the time and, in meditation, to maintain and "purify" your Ni is part of what you're doing. Everyone can become more aware of the constant flow of thoughts in your mind, but Ni does this from the outside, without identifying with the thoughts. The other part of meditation would be Se then, essentially awareness of your sensual impressions. And as the judging functions go away altogether, maybe that is what makes Se and Ni able to "reach each other"... as essentially, when you meditate there is only one perception.

I think I could write a lot on this subject, but I have to think about it some more (and keep meditating!) to be able to put it down in words... you get what I mean though?

This sounds like a meditation technique designed to help you step outside your Se not step thru, but I could be mistaken. Could you elaborate some for me?
Hm... well, I'm not sure, it was just an idea... but in a trance you will really relax your body and all, and if we assume once more that the judging functions just stay out of it... I don't think you would lose your Se.

But I don't know, I get a feeling I might just be playing with words here... haha, I'm too tired, I don't know if all this really relates to the MBTI or if I'm giving the functions new meanings... have to read more function theory... later... now I have to sleep. :zzz:

Apollanaut

09-09-2008, 02:34 AM

Interesting debate on the nature of meditation and it's importance to INJs. In fact, this whole thread has been enlightening - thanks for starting it, Martian Manifesto! My own Ni has been triggered into action, there are so many related ideas pouring in that I'll try and limit myself to one topic per posting!

I use a range of meditational tools, including self-hypnosis, trance, guided visualisations and active meditations (eg, walking/doing chores/gardening). Which one I use depends on my need.

If I've been using Ni a great deal, then I prefer an active Sensing-type meditation to compensate for all the time spent inside my head.

However, if I've not had a chance to "go inside" for a long time (usually due to the requirements of my job) then I will use a quiet, trance-type technique to reconnect with my neglected Ni.

It's all a question of maintaining balance in my life. I get into trouble if I ignore one side of myself for too long, which can be either Sensing or Intuition.

I would also agree with previous suggestions that INJs naturally spend a lot of time in a light trance-type state. In fact, I would postulate that it may not be possible to use Ni without doing so! I certainly notice this in myself a lot, and since I learned some self-hypnosis techniques I can choose to do so at need. Learning how to do this has positively transformed my life in so many ways.

Maabus1999

09-09-2008, 06:55 AM

True that.

Most of the INJs that I know all like to acheive a "meditative state" but it is not the mellow type you think of normally and more of a supreme state of mastery over their Ni.

I think INJs mind needs to "pull back" every now and then so it can let itself reconfigure without annoying input. INJs I think "meditate" almost constantly by most people standards. So "normal" meditation might not cut it. I find that I reach these states of control much better by active imagination and active meditation. For myself, I usually have better luck with yoga, cooking, working out, long walks, grappling with friends who I am very close with (INFJs, INTJs because we are so in synch we don't even need to talk that much). I think that is what most of the "good" manifestations of using the Se well for an INJ seem to look like. I will get the stuff from the book that pertains to the this. Have it in a few....

Yes. I find meditation to clear my mind and focus to be very important. Working out, and my new hobby, Yoga (pretty cool isn't it!). Actually not bad! Anyways, I can focus my mind very well but as this thread points out, Se does a wrecking ball on me at times and the best way to clear that out is by doing something that clears that out.

Working out is the best way for me to calm my "aggressive and adversarial attitude" I get at times when I start extroverting. If I don't, while like others said, I won't hurt them physically, but I need release.

As for obsession with details? Only if something makes me self conscious about it. Doesn't happen too often.

One of the funniest things I have done in my life is open a door and walk into the edge of the door as I'm opening it. I have done this three times in recent memory. Boy, does that hurt:steam: All doors should be like Star Trek!

Martian Manifesto

09-09-2008, 05:21 PM

Hm, I see. I think we have a different approach to it, you use meditation as a way to *shape* your Ni in various ways, to counter real-life challenges, and this is something I have done a little... but now I rather use it, as I was saying, as a way of strengthening Se...

OK, first, my previous post:

This is a bit inspired by John Beebe's work on MBTI types, which says that the 4th function is the "cause" of our 1st. I don't know if you're familiar with it, otherwise you can read through one of my previous threads (and possibly the link in my first post, though I admit it's long).

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/7238-your-personality-s-highest-value.html

As I understand it, for example Ni-Se are on the same "axis" and as an INJ the aim of Ni should be to "reach" or "embrace" Se. You can use Se for itself, but then you lose your Ni, or you can neglect it altogether just to have it "revolt" and take over. Also, any function that just "stays within itself" loses perspective; and many INJs are interested in art, for example, as it expresses Ni in a Se way.

Now, on meditation: when sitting down to meditate, you are your normal Ni self; it's not like you lose Ni and start indulging in Se, as otherwise happens sometimes. As I understand it, Ni is directed to the unconscious/half-conscious processes that go on inside us all the time and, in meditation, to maintain and "purify" your Ni is part of what you're doing. Everyone can become more aware of the constant flow of thoughts in your mind, but Ni does this from the outside, without identifying with the thoughts. The other part of meditation would be Se then, essentially awareness of your sensual impressions. And as the judging functions go away altogether, maybe that is what makes Se and Ni able to "reach each other"... as essentially, when you meditate there is only one perception.

I think I could write a lot on this subject, but I have to think about it some more (and keep meditating!) to be able to put it down in words... you get what I mean though?

Hm... well, I'm not sure, it was just an idea... but in a trance you will really relax your body and all, and if we assume once more that the judging functions just stay out of it... I don't think you would lose your Se.

But I don't know, I get a feeling I might just be playing with words here... haha, I'm too tired, I don't know if all this really relates to the MBTI or if I'm giving the functions new meanings... have to read more function theory... later... now I have to sleep. :zzz:

* Your Ni never turns off. If you think that in any way you are mistaken. This may lead to the misunderstanding of the meditation I am speaking of. The meditation you are speaking of is good for beginning. It lets you be aware of your Ni and to "ping" with your Se. This is good but it is only mid-way on the totem pole. Here is a rough idea of how the power level of your Ni goes:
1) Sleeping
2) active imagination
3) meditating
4) normal
5) in the grip of your inferior function

Your Ni is very very "shy". This is why when Se comes in too much it "shuts down". But it doesn't shut down, it goes underground. It is still informing you, but you don't know it. Which is of course dangerous....but also possibly enlightening. Here's why: The Ni does NOT like to be monitored. When you are meditating and "just noting the things floating by...thouthts or stimulus", well your Ni is going to be like an artistic performer who is being watched. You will get to "see" the Ni very clearly from your bhuda-esque position, but the Ni WILL NOT BE PERFORMING ANYWHERE NEAR TOP CAPACITY. In order to do this you must "step thru your intuitions" which you are not doing. This is why I asked for clarification.

I will give you specific examples to clarify my point.

1) I have a wonderul vision in a sleeping dream or waking revery. It can be quite good to do the mediation your are talking about to do general Ni inquiry and get some bearings. Make some observations as you were saying. However, this is VERY LOW MOJO for an INFJ. INFJs are capable of much grander stuff. If this vision/idea/train of thought/etc has been mulled over the way you described then it is reading for the next stage of "baking". You will need to WRITE it out. Or SPEAK it out. Or ACT it out. Or DRAW it out. This will be either Fe or Se, both is preferred as you get further along finding out what your Ni has given you. Ask most most artists and ESPECIALLY INFJs and they will tell you that when they are writing a scene, or creating a character, or building a tune hook,etc...they DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO COME OUT UNTIL THEY DO IT. Even though their Ni gave them an idea of what was going to happen (incoming Ni) and they tried to "listen" to it (Ni being monitered and "pinged" as you are describing, they still don't know what is going to happen or be created until they DO IT.

Why? Because the Ni does not like to be monitored. That's why the dreaming is the most powerful form (ask Carl Jung...he was a much more powerful intuitive than Beebe, and most agree he was either an INFJ or INTJ...either way he was built like us...I'm going with him). Lucid dreaming is the next most powerful form. This is when you are in a dream state while still awake. This is what artists use (well INFJs anyway) at the height of their creative cycle. When I write, I do not know what it will be until I do it...THEN I say "oh, I guess that is what my Ni wanted say". The kind of meditation you are doing is good to know what you got rattling around in there but they will still be in there. This elements will build and build until an INFJ has found it's "voice". If the INFJ does not give voice to these Ni elements, they will make for some nice crazy time. This isn't my theory, it is Mr. Jung's.

For the Ni to work at it's highest it must be given a chance to EXPRESS itself through and E form (Fe and/or Se) without any monitoring of the person. The person finds out what the Ni had to say afterwards. Everyone could benefit from living their life as an artistic instrument, INFJs don't really have much choice. It seems to me your focus is on becoming calm and having a zen like control and relationship with your Se. This is a goal of many young INFJs. It doesn't work. Your Ni thoughts are stronger than any Se and they are stronger than YOU. When YOU are watching your Ni, when YOU are hanging with your Ni, when YOU are in any way directing your Ni...then your Ni will give you some stuff but it is going to save the really good shiet to when YOU go to effign sleep. By you I am referring to your ego. Your Ni is linked to your inner child, your mana, etc...seriously powerful archtypes...way more powerful than your ego. Your ego taggin along virtually insures a low level interaction. I know that you said you step away from yourself. But you are still there, and your Ni knows it. By the way, it will help your endeavors immensely to see your Ni as a creature inside you that has your best interests at heart. As long as you are still tagging along, the Ni inside you will go slow and weak (still awesome compared to non INJs) because it doesn't want to blow your mind. The CONSCIOUS mind can't handle it. This is why the Ni uses IDEAL opportuities to give you big stuff. It gives them to you when you dream. We usually can't handle the "weight" of such pure Ni gifts so we forget them quickly to protect our fragile ego mind. It also happens when an INFJ is speaking passionately about something to somebody of worth (Fe). Truths will be spoken that the INFJ didn't even know were inside. This also happens when the INFJ's mind WANDERS on Se stuff. The body will teach you things by being moved DIRECTLY by the Ni and not by you. This is why so many documented a-ha moments happen when you are cooking, driving, walking, cleaning, etc....because YOU ARE NOT trying to be an effing Jedi and become one with you Ni.

Most INFJs are deathly afraid of what would come out of them if they were EVER to go into Fe or Se without THEM driving the Ni. They might actually speak truth and we all know how much trouble that can get you into. You might reveal when of your deep Ni impressions which would leave you exquisitly vulnerable. Yet it is exactly this that takes an INFJ to the next level. I have learned so much from myself by allowing my Ni to flow directly through me while I (ego) keep myself occupied with either a pleasant/interesting Fe or Se activity.

When I have these a-has then I may need to turn them about some to see what I have...again, I may go back to the less deep Ni meditation you were referring to. I am not belittling it at all. It is an integral part to an INFJs complete repetoire. It is good to get an idea of what the Ni wants to show you and it is good to play with a large Ni gift once it has been given to you.

sleepless

09-10-2008, 05:23 PM

That generally puts me to sleep. This is actually often what I have to do to fall asleep, because during the day my mind is usually so busy chasing whatever bubbles up to the surface that it needs something to slow it down. If an object loses all of its momentum, it will stop.

There are certain types of people, who, if they're sitting still for long enough, they will fall asleep. This is how I work mentally.
OK. I could argue here that if this makes you fall asleep it's because you're somehow doing it the wrong way, but if you see no need for the kind of awareness I'm speaking of, then in a sense it might not be *your thing*. And yet, if it calms your mind as you describe it, then that's good.

Apollanaut/Maabus,

great to hear that you too are into these things. :)

MM,

it is becoming clear to me that even if we're both INFJs, we are quite different. I can see your perspective, yet mine is different. Let's see if we can sort things out.

Your Ni never turns off. If you think that in any way you are mistaken. This may lead to the misunderstanding of the meditation I am speaking of. The meditation you are speaking of is good for beginning. It lets you be aware of your Ni and to "ping" with your Se. This is good but it is only mid-way on the totem pole. Here is a rough idea of how the power level of your Ni goes:
1) Sleeping
2) active imagination
3) meditating
4) normal
5) in the grip of your inferior function

First of all, I don't often have vivid dreams, lucid dreams or anyhow inspirational dreams. They are mostly a completely meaningless, dizzy blur that only mirrors my time awake, if anything. I was interested in dreams when I was younger, and I've had a few recurring dreams which have felt meaningful, and also a few lucid ones. But no matter how much I would want my dreams in general to be more interesting, they are the complete opposite, and I don't really care about them anymore. I think you are assuming too much (as perhaps I do too) that your Ni is everybody's Ni. As the most abstract of the functions, it is probably the hardest one to grasp, to clearly define how it works. "Ni works in mysterious ways", so to speak. ;) I find it fascinating how it works in you, but much of what you speak of is sadly underdeveloped in myself. I have felt it, but I can't really get to it. More on that later.

I didn't see the meditation I practice as a way of of "turning off" Ni, but I can see what you mean. The trance, the special Ni-ish state of mind actually does go away. And your point then is that Ni in this position is not living up to its full potential. If we define Ni as merely a great source of inspiration, then the emptiness of meditation is like watching Ni from the outside, which might at the most be relaxing and let you get some bearings. But is that all there is to it? Ni is partly inspiration, but it is also a direct seeing, and I would say that the seeing in meditation is Ni. That is part of what meditation gives me: it makes me see things more clearly, and in that seeing there is a great potential for change. As clearly as I see a tree in front of me, I lets me see my thoughts and impulses from an outside perspective, the mental state of a person I meet, my own awareness as well as my ego. And behind all these things, there is a great emptiness that cannot be put into words.

Maybe your Ni is primarily inspirational, and mine is more concerned with "insight"? As much inspiration as your Ni seems to give you (*jealous*) meditation could indeed become an obstacle; when you are inspired, your inspirations will need to be expressed, and why wouldn't you do that? I am not that inspired though, and there is nothing I can do about that, except letting go of myself and allow whatever arises to arise.

The thing is that I have really felt "the power" of Ni, the "mana" or whatever you want to call it, and I feel it still every now and then. The strongest thing I've felt is a glimpse of a vision to be communicated to other people, to be expressed primarily through Fe, psychological as well as political. But I cannot do this yet; I am too weak and too much trapped inside my ego, and I *know* that the most direct way to "get to" this vision is the meditation I am practicing. It will take many years, but then I will have access to the power and hopefully be able to do something for the world. And paradoxically, I have to let go of it to get it. This is not imagination; it is (again) a faint but direct seeing that never really goes away, which I can only follow without really knowing where it will lead.

So, I am not trying to control my Ni inspiration or anything like that, which of course wouldn't do any good. But it seems that our intuitions have different emphasis. How much do you recognize yourself in what I have described - insight rather than inspiration?

InaF3157

09-10-2008, 05:28 PM

There are no INFJ haters out there? A whole thread on how we have a twisted relationship with our Se? Come on, I mean this is too perfect. Take at least one swipe. You'll feel better, I promise.

Not an INJ hater by any stretch, but
I started a previous thread on the INFJ & INTJ's dominant function: Ni

This thread is intended to explore the INJ's inferior function: Se

Let's start the discussion with something I am reading now. Don't want to make this too long so I will just give the main "manfestations" of an INJ "in the grip" of the inferior Se function. They are:

3) Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outside World

All input welcome, serious and the not-so-serious :)

Enjoy and....attack!
OK - you said not so serious, too, so . . .
My Q: Is number 3 is the flip side of self-absorption? Is INJ a serious contender for "most self-absorbed"? If true, is this only when "in the grip"? Why or Why not?

faith

09-10-2008, 06:07 PM

Holy cow! This is so eye-opening to me.

I recently began taking graduate classes at a university about 70 miles away. I drive down three times a week (and don't particularly like driving). Naturally there have been the usual frustrations that come with figuring out how to fit into the microculture of a new university: where to park, how to navigate the streets (with a overheating car), where to buy books (of course they're always out of the text you need), why my registration is on hold, how to submit an assignment via the new online system, etc. etc. My boyfriend is also beginning classes nearby, and I've been responsible for setting up his classes and things while he was away. All on top of being suddenly swamped with new studies.

Although I'm so thankful for the opportunity to study, I've found myself in that overly-critical mood for the past month or two. The one where you yell at cabinets for being in your way, obsess about house cleaning, crave an escape novel, and are convinced the world was created just to frustrate you. It's so easy for me to become super-critical about stupid things right now. I haven't been able to figure out what the problem is. I ought to be thrilled through-and-through because I'm finally able to pursue something I care about. What's all this vague antagonism and general angst in place of the joy?

Reading these descriptions has been so enlightening. I see that I haven't been giving myself permission to be worn out by this sudden abundance of obligations that target my weaknesses. (Everyone else can deal with these problems fine, so who am I to complain?) Because I haven't made time to nurture myself with Se, it's been showing up in other ways.

I love playing with my dogs because they engage my Se in a positive way. Walks in the woods, tree-gazing, and star-gazing are also ways I escape and recouperate. I have been refusing to do these things recently because I have so many pressing obligations and don't quite feel I've "earned" them until my work is done first.

Ha. Taught me a lesson, I guess. I'm going to play with my dogs tonight...