Divorce Him!

[heart]

Since the Marry Him thread was so lively, I thought this would be a good conversation starter.

She's happily married, dreaming of divorce (http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/08/26/o.divorce.dreams/index.html)

One thing that I find disturbing about this article is the inserted link that says "Six relationship decisions we've made for you" !
.....

[heart]

I felt pretty sorry for the dude in her story. He sounds Ni dom or something, so caught up in inferior Se details he can't concentrate. lol. She picked him, what did she expect?

[Magic Poriferan]

I hate it when people try to rid themselves of responsibility for their personal problems by blaming it on a bigger culture. I also find a lot of the attacks on fidelity stupid, since... well, hell, it's hard to know where to begin. I always groan at anti-fidelity arguments.

The thing that bothered me the most about the article, though, is when she flatly said that a woman's husband could not be her best friend, and then basically mocked the intelligence or intregrity of any woman that thought otherwise. Argh! The article dripped with bitterness, and the writer was spitefully hoping that everyone shared her bitterness. A hope that was apparently reinforced by friends with similar opinions.

[heart]

Yeah, that bugged me too Magic. I'd consider my husband my best friend I've yet had in this life. Perhaps it's not total perfection, but what is in this world?

[Kyrielle]

I'm not sure what to say. I find her problem puzzling, because she doesn't mention (now I did skim that last half of it) talking to her husband about his absent-mindedness and how it's almost a detriment at times. I get the impression she's given up utterly, is being selfish, is expecting too much. Divorce shouldn't be a luxury, which is what I feel that article is trying to make it out to be. Like some horrible advertisement that has the punchline "One-day divorce sale! 50% off! Don't miss it!"

But then I've never been married, and I don't know the full extent of the issues in that woman's marriage aside from the fairly superficial ones mentioned.

Edit: I agree Heart. The man sounded much like myself and other dom Ni types.

[ygolo]

Wow. Bitter is an understatement.

Makes one wonder why she wanted to get married in the first place. She also seems incredibly unrealistic, and in my estimation will remain unsatisfied for life.

In addition, she extrapolates her experience to that of all women.

Initially, her tone was funny in a sarcasitc way. It later became an out-right rant. Can I get paid for ranting too?

[hiddengem]

I can't express the disgust I felt as I read that article. She seemed to have a total lack of awareness of how her actions and attitudes were influencing her relationship. I'm sure her husband could rattle off a list of her personality quirks that would shock her.

I agree that woman have more choices now than 50 years ago. We are better able to take care of ourselves financially and the stigma that went with divorce is not as harsh. But still, if a person sees divorce as just another choice in life like which car to buy or which school to send your kids to, why even get married in the first place? Save yourself, your children and your spouse the pain. Just get a cat.

(Yes, I know. I'm a little sensitve about this subject...)

[Enyo]

You know, she and the marry him! chick have some things in common. The biggest one would be that they are both bitter and disillusioned over the choices that they made in life.

I couldn't imagine being envious of someone planning a divorce. You got married. You made a commitment, including a vow of "'till death do you part". (Or, in my case "for as long as you both shall live.") If you get into marriage with the fantasy of not having to work at it, then you have just entered fantasy land.

BTW, my husband is my best friend. Okay, so I don't really have many other friends. But my parents were the same way, and they *did* have other friends. My parents had this theory that anything that they could do was automatically better if they did it together. That included stupid things like grocery shopping, to the big things, like owning and running a business together. It worked for them for 41 years. It would still be working if they were still alive.

[Magic Poriferan]

Well, what I find interesting is how we've had an article on why women should marry, and now an article on why women should divorce, and I found both of them insulting.

[runvardh]

Well, what I find interesting is how we've had an article on why women should marry, and now an article on why women should divorce, and I found both of them insulting.

It's because of the reasoning they give to make those decisions and it's what I feel the words of immaturity.

[Kristiana]

I find the writer to be quite pitiful. She sounds like a whiny, cynical little twit who justifies her bitterness by the postulation that everyone else is bitter just like her.

FWIW, my husband IS my best friend, and yes, thank you, I have many other friends. I just happened to decide to make a lifelong covenant with the one I'm closest with, is all.

[Decon]

So this could just be me, but it seems that everyone who read it dis agrees with the writer. I didn't read the article, nor do I plan to from the sounds of it.

It could be that the lady who wrote this was angry that her partner was not the man of her dreams. It could also be that she had had a rough life in her eyes and was angry about that. :steam: So it could be that she is being ignorant, maybe not of her own will, to the suffering of her husband and/or the others around her.

Anyways, I'd just thought I'd say a few reasons as to why a woman my be mad and/or bitter. I'm sure someone will answer back with an article saying otherwise and the debate will continue on. So get out your popcorn and hope that the other side soon comes with a better peice.

[anii]

So this could just be me, but it seems that everyone who read it disagrees with the writer.

Not everyone.

Some may have found it (months ago) another eye-opening milestone along the hard road to a difficult decision.

Some may have recognized their own ambivalence in the author's story.

Some may just have learned to choose their battles.

[Colors]

I don't seem to disagree with the writer as much as everyone else. Sure, she's bitter, but I don't think she's necessarily angry. I do like some of the things she says- that perhaps marriage is becoming a vestigal organ in the body of humanity as societal and monetary pressures become lesser on the divorced parties.

What is disappointing is her ... inaction. She has all these things that drive her crazy about her husband, but she's using this rationalization rather than communicating with said husband. She sort of recognizes this perhaps, when she talks about how having the option of divorce gives the strength to not do so (in her horrible museum metaphor), but this I feel is the wrong way to deal with her husband. A divorce or an attempt to improve the family relationships- either could be better than this waiting game- this daydreaming and weighing between marriage and divorce whilst doing nothing.

I think she probably overstated her disatisfaction with her husband's faults (and acknowledged such in her rant against his deadly shoes) for style and impact, but it's sort of dishonest and imbalanced.

[Decon]

Not everyone.

Some may have found it (months ago) another eye-opening milestone along the hard road to a difficult decision.

Some may have recognized their own ambivalence in the author's story.

Some may just have learned to choose their battles.

Maybe I should've said that the people who've I seen who replied to this so far dis agreed with the writer.

And colors, I wil agree that her inaction is something that should be noted. Either she needs to take steps to either solve it or end it peacefully.

[Spartacuss]

Wow. Bitter is an understatement.

Makes one wonder why she wanted to get married in the first place.
She believed the hype that she should want to get married. Cautionary tale that it isn't for everyone.



In addition, she extrapolates her experience to that of all women.
Yes, much like those women (such as the "marry him" author) who extrapolate their wanting marriage and kids is to ALL women.

Misery loves company. I have found people who make horrible life decisions often want you to join in to justify to themselves that it was the right one. Or else they find a solution and start trying to tell you how to live your life since they learned through their fuck-ups. Of course, it is also to justify to themselves that this latest attempt of theirs is a good idea.

[ygolo]

Yes, much like those women (such as the "marry him" author) who extrapolate their wanting marriage and kids is to ALL women.


Yes. Both articles were extreme.

But they do together prompt me to wonder if the romanticized, "falling in love" notion of marriage is popular among western women, since both are a reaction to that.

Not that this is meant for everyone...

But what about Erich Fromm's notion that love is an interpersonal creative capacity rather than an emotion? The notion that love in a relationship means to take care of another (or others if kids are desired), to together form a bond that makes each person safer, stronger, and perhaps even better than either could be alone.

To me, this has nothing to do with falling "in love" or infatuation, or even admiration.

Certainly, the bond has to be very close for the desire to emerge, but for me (as a man), it is about the willingness to say, I am willing to be a better person for this woman, and the commitment to become so.

Perhaps this is an overly romanticized notion in itself. But does anyone else share that idea?

[Tallulah]

Ugh. This woman is totally repulsive. Maybe she'd have a happier marriage if she thought about anyone other than herself all the time. I resent the casual, confessional tone, as if we already all agree with her. I'd also love to see what her husband would say in a rebuttal article.

[Athenian200]

Her opinion aside, she seems articulate and funny, albeit in a somewhat cruel, cynical way.

I would say she has a point that people often idealize marriage more than they should, and are either too quick to get a divorce when they find it isn't perfect, or they try to hold it together when it's no longer viable (seeing it as duty), when they should deal with it in a more realistic manner, acknowledging the real stresses that come up when living with someone day-to-day.

However, I do think she was unjustified in implying that every person and every marriage is the same, and that her experiences apply to everyone just because they apply to some. Too many people try to act as if their own experiences carry meaning for everyone else, when every situation really needs to be considered on an individual basis, by the people involved. Because ultimately, they are the ones who have to live with the consequences of their choices.

[sciski]

What is disappointing is her ... inaction. She has all these things that drive her crazy about her husband, but she's using this rationalization rather than communicating with said husband.

:yes: He sounds completely oblivious and would probably make more effort if he was aware.

I wonder if she would feel the same if the tables were turned, and she found her husband's article contemplating divorce for the many crimes she was unaware she had committed over 16 years of marriage.

As Athenian said, she does have a valid point to make about the idealisation of marriage. However, she made it after alienating a large proportion of her audience by lambasting her husband and claiming that nobody who was married was happy unless delusional--as a result, she almost ends up preaching to the choir.

And heh--this thread is practically evidence of how the method of the messenger can really inhibit the message.

[Glaceau]

I resent the casual, confessional tone, as if we already all agree with her.
I half wonder if the style is meant to give the opposite side a taste of its own medicine. The same tone is adopted in admonishing women to get married or else.

[Jen]

I contemplate divorce every day. It tugs on my sleeve each morning when my husband, Will, greets me in his chipper, smug morning-person voice, because after 16 years of waking up together, he still hasn't quite pieced out that I'm not viable before 10 a.m.Can't he respect this small thing?

It puts two hands on my forehead and mercilessly presses when he blurts out the exact wrong thing ("Are you excited for your surprise party next Tuesday?")wtf?
when he lies to avoid the fight ("What do you mean I left our apartment door open? I never even knew our apartment had a door!");I'd be annoyed at the constant goofiness.
when he buttons his shirt and jacket into the wrong buttonholes, collars and seams unaligned like a vertical game of dominoes, with possibly a scrap of shirttail zippered into his fly.What, is he 5? It flicks me, hard, just under the eye when, during a parent-teacher conference, he raises his arm high in the air, scratches his armpit, and then --then! -- absently smells his fingers.That would annoy me.

What's up with the car thing? Maybe he resents her just as much and subconsciously wanted to kill her.

She believed the hype that she should want to get married. Cautionary tale that it isn't for everyone.
I agree. Women are conditioned from an early age to get married and have kids and if you don't your thought of as a freak or a lesbian (not that there is anything wrong with lesbians but I am not one). I suffered from whispers when I was in my late 20's and not attached or married. When I was 22 I ended an unpleasant relationship until meeting and marrying L. I spent 4 years single and loving it, but the people around me couldn't/wouldn't mind their own business. I was constantly being set up by not just my own clients, but everyone else's (I worked in a salon). In short, I'd had enough and was relieved when I met L and the invasion on my personal life deceased.

There are loads of women in that I come into contact daily who are miserable in their marriages and bitch about their husbands behavior and while it makes me feel uncomfortable it also makes me thankful that I made a wise choice to marry my husband who is the only person that seems to understand me in this world. People get stuck in ruts and/or grow in different directions. Once that starts happening it's almost impossible to repair the damage imo.

I don't "believe" in divorce, but sometimes it's inevitable for the sanity of both parties.

[cafe]

She sounds like she married the wrong guy or she let contempt creep in a long time ago. Fineline used to talk about how poisonous contempt is to a marriage and this article bears it out.

Something I did identify with, though, was the tripping over the shoes. Don left his shoes in the walkway for years and I would tease him about trying to kill me. He tries to keep them out of the walkway now and now I find myself tripping over my own shoes. :blush:

One thing I've always tried to keep in mind is that I'm not exactly a joy to live with myself and for everything about my husband that annoys me, he probably has something about me that annoys him and he's kind enough not to complain about it.

Anyway, the article just made me feel very sad.

[FDG]

She sounds like a bitter ENFJ.

[Athenian200]

Something I did identify with, though, was the tripping over the shoes. Don left his shoes in the walkway for years and I would tease him about trying to kill me. He tries to keep them out of the walkway now and now I find myself tripping over my own shoes. :blush:

Actually, I think you've talked about that on here. When I first read the article, I thought, "Tripping over shoes in the hallway? Didn't cafe talk about tripping over her husband's shoes? I hope this wasn't cafe... wait, no, she doesn't sound like this. This isn't quite her writing style."

One thing I've always tried to keep in mind is that I'm not exactly a joy to live with myself and for everything about my husband that annoys me, he probably has something about me that annoys him and he's kind enough not to complain about it.

I think people inevitably grate on each other's nerves living in close quarters. You notice every little flaw, and see each other at your worst regularly.

[hiddengem]

One thing I've always tried to keep in mind is that I'm not exactly a joy to live with myself and for everything about my husband that annoys me, he probably has something about me that annoys him and he's kind enough not to complain about it.

This exact thought is what I say to myself when I get annoyed at some insignificant thing my husband does. I like to think that my husband gives me the same grace when I annoy him.

[booyalab]

Since the Marry Him thread was so lively, I thought this would be a good conversation starter.

She's happily married, dreaming of divorce (http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/08/26/o.divorce.dreams/index.html)

One thing that I find disturbing about this article is the inserted link that says "Six relationship decisions we've made for you" !
.....

lol...right after I read your post and before I typed in the URL I was thinking: "Six relationship decisions we've made for you? Bah, ENFJs..." Then I looked at the article and the huge OPRAH.COM popped into my field of view.

ok, I just read the first two paragraphs and she sounds like a bitch.
when he buttons his shirt and jacket into the wrong buttonholes *gasp*

[Ivy]

One thing I've always tried to keep in mind is that I'm not exactly a joy to live with myself and for everything about my husband that annoys me, he probably has something about me that annoys him and he's kind enough not to complain about it.

Very well said. The woman in the article seemed fairly self-centered to me. I'm sure her husband could write an article in the same tone about her.

I was also put off by the "your husband is not your best friend" thing. Maybe we define friends differently, but my husband is definitely my friend, and how could he not be the best one? I have a girlfriend I call my "best friend" as well, but it's understood that I mean my best girlfriend. It's just different. I don't think that diminishes her place in my life, and I don't think she'd feel left out to know this.

[prplchknz]

The interesting thing I've heard from people, is who you marry should be your best friend.(not that you should marry your best friend if their is not romantic attraction) That was also my brother's advice before sleeping with someone for the first time, he was like in highschool, and told me when he decided to lose his virginity it was someone who he was physically attracted too, emotionally, and felt like he could share anything with. I think that applies to the person he's marrying, so I don't know. But too me it seems like people who don't see faults in themselves but other people are going to have a harder time at life. Not just marriage.

[helen]

So here are my thoughts.

She sounds unhappy. Okay-- is it a crime to be unhappy? It's probably good that she's exploring her thoughts/feelings, although perhaps a journal would be a more suitable medium than an online article for this, but I digress.

She doesn't sound unhappy about her marriage specifically. She seems to be trying to pin her emptiness on her marriage but the reasons she points to are are flimsy at best. He sounds like a decent, stable, not unkindly guy and faithful husband and father. I doubt she will divorce him or that she would be any happier if she did.

To me, she sounds like a person that is lacking purpose and a sense of fulfillment. I don't think another marriage partner (or the lack of a marriage partner) would change that, but she clearly needs something.

God?

[pure_mercury]

A few thoughts:

1) Wow, this woman is a poor writer. This article is choppy and forced.

2) As people have stated before, she seems to be using the royal "we." I can't imagine that her insights speak for the majority of the married female population.

3) One paragraph in particular: "We were groomed to think bigger and better -- achievement was our birthright -- so it's small surprise that our marriages are more freighted. Marriage and its cruel cohort, fidelity, are a lot to expect from anyone, much less from swift-flying us. Would we agree to wear the same eyeshadow or eat in the same restaurant every day for a lifetime? Nay, cry the villagers, the echo answers nay. We believe in our superhood. We count on it."

Jesus Christ, this is complete and total lack of perspective and passing of the buck. "We were groomed to think bigger and better?" Blaming a previous generation for your problems. "Marriage and its cruel cohort, fidelity, are a lot to expect from anyone. Would we agree to wear the same eyeshadow or eat in the same restaurant every day for a lifetime?" A) No, they aren't; and B) if you don't want to be faithful to one person, don't get fucking married! She makes herself sound like a vacuous, spoiled bitch. Can you imagine if a man, writing for a men's magazine, came right out and said, "Jeez! Why do women expect us hard-charging corporate men to make all this money and provide them a great lifestyle AND not cheat on them? It's so hard not to!" And this is rich: "we believe in our superhood. We count on it?" Sounds like a fool's errand, since you sound utterly unfulfilled, and not particularly super at all.

In short, I don't think marriage is the problem here (it's certainly not vestigial, since they still happen every day). It sounds like a lot of stupid people get married for the wrong reasons, and then wonder why they're unhappy. I'd LOVE to read her husband's take on what married life is like with her.

[cafe]

Very well said. The woman in the article seemed fairly self-centered to me. I'm sure her husband could write an article in the same tone about her.

I was also put off by the "your husband is not your best friend" thing. Maybe we define friends differently, but my husband is definitely my friend, and how could he not be the best one? I have a girlfriend I call my "best friend" as well, but it's understood that I mean my best girlfriend. It's just different. I don't think that diminishes her place in my life, and I don't think she'd feel left out to know this.
Yeah, I was put off by that, too, but since I really only have a handful of friends and most of them are long distance it made me feel too invalidated to say so. :blush:

I love my girlfriends. I wish they lived closer so that we could do stuff together, but my husband is many things to me and best friend is about the most important thing he is to me.

I wouldn't say the author is miserably married, but she doesn't sound happily married either. My husband and I have been married for about the same time she has been married to her husband and The Time Between Diapers is shaping up to be our best years so far. I feel very satisfied and in love. But maybe it's because I don't work full-time so I don't feel as over-taxed as she does or something. Who knows?

Also, the arm pit scratching thing . . . it sounds like passive aggressive tactic to get out of future parent/teacher conferences, but maybe I'm projecting. :devil:

[Mondo]

"Remember marriage? What was its function again? Was it that maladaptive organ that intermittently produced gastrointestinal antigens and sometimes got so inflamed that it painfully erupted?"

How cute!
The person who wrote this article is trying to sound smart.
Awww..... :hug:, I hope she didn't hurt herself too much from all the thinking she had to do.

What does she hope for besides marriage?
Being able to be a slut for the rest of her life and sleep with any man she desires?

[Enyo]

How cute!
The person who wrote this article is trying to sound smart.
Awww..... :hug:, I hope she didn't hurt herself too much from all the thinking she had to do.

What does she hope for besides marriage?
Being able to be a slut for the rest of her life and sleep with any man she desires?

But why would being able to sleep with any man that she desires make her a slut? If it were a man who wanted the freedom to fuck around indiscriminately, I doubt the "slut" tag would be applied to him.

Seriously, I worked with a guy who had more ass than a public toilet seat. Yet society found that to be okay. Why shouldn't a woman be afforded the same privilege?

*Edited to add that I can't stand the author and think she's a self-centered bitch who isn't willing to put the effort required into her marriage. My only objection is to the willingness to apply the "slut" label.

[Ivy]

But why would being able to sleep with any man that she desires make her a slut? If it were a man who wanted the freedom to fuck around indiscriminately, I doubt the "slut" tag would be applied to him.

Seriously, I worked with a guy who had more ass than a public toilet seat. Yet society found that to be okay. Why shouldn't a woman be afforded the same privilege?

*Edited to add that I can't stand the author and think she's a self-centered bitch who isn't willing to put the effort required into her marriage. My only objection is to the willingness to apply the "slut" label.

I don't care much for the word slut either and I agree with you that it's more quickly applied to single women than a similar word would be to single men. But this is different; it's about someone already in a marriage, and I think many if not most people would feel the same way about a husband who wrote those words. Whether you are a man or a woman, if you want to be open to having as many lovers as you wish, marriage may not be a choice that makes sense for you.

[Enyo]

I don't care much for the word slut either and I agree with you that it's more quickly applied to single women than a similar word would be to single men. But this is different; it's about someone already in a marriage, and I think many if not most people would feel the same way about a husband who wrote those words. Whether you are a man or a woman, if you want to be open to having as many lovers as you wish, marriage may not be a choice that makes sense for you.

Now *that* I agree with. However, if she were out of her marriage and chose to shag anything remotely male, then the "slut" thing would come into play.

If you decide that you want out of your marriage just so you can sleep around, then.... Well, hell, that actually sounds like the type of thing that the author would consider. :P

[SaltyWench]

Waking up one day and realizing, "Oh my God. This is it. My marriage is not terrible, but it's not fantastic either. It just sort of 'is'. The rest of my life is going to be 'Close, but no cigar.'... it's neither hot nor cold. Am I doomed to live a lukewarm existence for the rest of my life?"

Divorce is an option. And it's okay for women to be the ones who "leave", even if their husbands aren't beating on them. Divorce is not a magical cure all, but it should be an option. And I do agree with the author there.

[Magic Poriferan]

I don't think anyone here is against letting women seeks divorce or allowing them to avoid marriage altogether. That notion is accepted by all but the most conservative of people these days, so it doesn't seem like much of a point to make. The moment the author begins adding her own color to it, it's just stuff that seems bitter, selfish, and ignorant.

[Mondo]

But why would being able to sleep with any man that she desires make her a slut? If it were a man who wanted the freedom to fuck around indiscriminately, I doubt the "slut" tag would be applied to him.
I would actually call a man who does that a slut as well. Others may not do so but I personally would. A man and a woman who both engage in those sorts of practices deserve the same treatment.

I am just curious as to why she wants marriage to be gone.
Is it simply for economic reasons? My stuff is my stuff and your stuff is your stuff and we should just live together..
Or is it because she can't stand the thought of only having one person to sleep with, that she has to keep her options open at all times? (A reason why she feels trapped by her husband, who doesn't seem like a bad guy at all from the article).

The part that bothers me the most is that she tries to portray herself as a victim when there is nothing that suggests she is truly victimized by the marriage.

[Tallulah]

Waking up one day and realizing, "Oh my God. This is it. My marriage is not terrible, but it's not fantastic either. It just sort of 'is'. The rest of my life is going to be 'Close, but no cigar.'... it's neither hot nor cold. Am I doomed to live a lukewarm existence for the rest of my life?"

Divorce is an option. And it's okay for women to be the ones who "leave", even if their husbands aren't beating on them. Divorce is not a magical cure all, but it should be an option. And I do agree with the author there.

Of course, no one wants a lukewarm marriage. But this woman seems to have made up her mind that everything her husband does is annoying, and rather than talk to him about being unhappy in the marriage, she writes an article blaming society and the institution of marriage. It sounds to me like she wants an excuse to give up and leave.

I know as an INTP, my tendency is to always let people be exactly who they are, and then decide for myself whether I can handle all their quirks. But I think in a marriage, if something is bugging you longterm, and it's enough for you to be contemplating getting out of the relationship, you have to negotiate with the person and let them know what's bothering you. And you have to be willing to give up some of your quirks, too.

Perhaps they've just grown too comfortable with each other, and the lack of excitement has caused her to resent him, so everything he does seems annoying to her. I guess I just want her to realize that she has some control over some of that. She can choose not to focus only on the negative, and she can let the poor guy know what she's thinking.

[Sitara]

I don't think anyone here is against letting women seeks divorce or allowing them to avoid marriage altogether. That notion is accepted by all but the most conservative of people these days, so it doesn't seem like much of a point to make. The moment the author begins adding her own color to it, it's just stuff that seems bitter, selfish, and ignorant.

I'll just make the point that this is not quite correct. In "average" American society it may be the case, but within any group that is within, say, 2-4 generations from immigrant-hood, verbally voicing opinions that women should be married by a certain age and that divorce is not acceptable is common. I would think this would be true of any asian/south asian and perhaps even african culture, if not many others.

As I recall, the author's last name for that article was listed as "Tien".

[helen]

In "average" American society it may be the case, but within any group that is within, say, 2-4 generations from immigrant-hood, verbally voicing opinions that women should be married by a certain age and that divorce is not acceptable is common.

True. I'm 2 generations from immigrant-hood on my mother's side of the family-- both grandparents from Sicily. These assumptions do seem to float somewhere in the collective family subconscious-- even when we are disagreeing with them.

[sarah]

A few thoughts:

3) One paragraph in particular: "We were groomed to think bigger and better -- achievement was our birthright -- so it's small surprise that our marriages are more freighted. Marriage and its cruel cohort, fidelity, are a lot to expect from anyone, much less from swift-flying us. Would we agree to wear the same eyeshadow or eat in the same restaurant every day for a lifetime? Nay, cry the villagers, the echo answers nay. We believe in our superhood. We count on it."

Jesus Christ, this is complete and total lack of perspective and passing of the buck. "We were groomed to think bigger and better?" Blaming a previous generation for your problems. "Marriage and its cruel cohort, fidelity, are a lot to expect from anyone. Would we agree to wear the same eyeshadow or eat in the same restaurant every day for a lifetime?" A) No, they aren't; and B) if you don't want to be faithful to one person, don't get fucking married! She makes herself sound like a vacuous, spoiled bitch. Can you imagine if a man, writing for a men's magazine, came right out and said, "Jeez! Why do women expect us hard-charging corporate men to make all this money and provide them a great lifestyle AND not cheat on them? It's so hard not to!" And this is rich: "we believe in our superhood. We count on it?" Sounds like a fool's errand, since you sound utterly unfulfilled, and not particularly super at all.

In short, I don't think marriage is the problem here (it's certainly not vestigial, since they still happen every day). It sounds like a lot of stupid people get married for the wrong reasons, and then wonder why they're unhappy. I'd LOVE to read her husband's take on what married life is like with her.


Amen. I agree. Achievement isn't anyone's "birthright." You're lucky if you're born into this world with a decent IQ and the ability to discipline yourself enough to achieve. Lots of people in this world don't ever have enough to subsist on, let alone the ability to realize a "birthright" of being able to achieve every single ounce of their potential. Not to mention that what we see as being our brightest and shiniest potential isn't necessarily what we prove to be best at in life, or what others love the most about us.

I really think marriage is for people who want to commit to one specific person they respect and for whom they would be willing to give up some life options for, if necessary, and even become a caretaker for should that person become chronically sick, break their spinal cord and end up a quadriplegic, or develop Alzheimers' disease. Seems to me that people who can't make that sort of commitment to specific person whom they deem to be worthy of that honor really would do well to think long and hard before signing that ol' marriage certificate.

I'm not anti-divorce by any means, but I AM anti-entitlement. People who get divorced because they can no longer live in a marriage of convenience or because they have had it with being abused or wahtever have a legitimate point. It's this attitude of "I can do better than you, because you haven't managed to live up to my fantasies of what I COULD achieve matrimonially" that really annoys me.

There's no shame in owning up to being a person who would rather just go through life having a bunch of short-term fair-weather relationships for a few months before moving on, although I think if you're that sort of person, you owe it to people to be honest with them about that. Sounds like this woman is more the "fair weather" type -- or a dreamer who thinks that the universe has somehow promised her a life much more exciting than whatever she's got.

Speaking of which, many people tend to date variations of a theme, don't you think? Probably if this woman divorces her husband, the next man she'll be attracted to will seem to be perfect on the surface, but will turn out to have the same annoying habits as her ex.

Sarah
(happily married ISFP) :)

[Uytuun]

Institution over relationship again.

But maybe it's because I don't work full-time so I don't feel as over-taxed as she does or something. Who knows?


I don't understand how women can set themselves up for children, a career, a social life, hobbies and a relationship and expect all these things to turn out super duper great. Why would you want to do that to yourself? Perhaps there are some that manage, but it sure sounds impossible to me. Know yourself. I don't think I could handle children, a relationship and a fulfilling career and do all of them well. I'd rather drop the children than half-ass all three and turn out perpetually frustrated and alienated from myself.

[runvardh]

Institution over relationship again.



I don't understand how women can set themselves up for children, a career, a social life, hobbies and a relationship and expect all these things to turn out super duper great. Why would you want to do that to yourself? Perhaps there are some that manage, but it sure sounds impossible to me. Know yourself. I don't think I could handle children, a relationship and a fulfilling career and do all of them well. I'd rather drop the children than half-ass all three and turn out perpetually frustrated and alienated from myself.

It usually helps of the guy you have the relationship and the kids with actually does half the work in this area or more depending on how tied up his stuff is. There are times when I look at a lot of the more lazy idiots who like to call themselves fathers, but hardly put shit into their children or their marriages other than money and it really chaps my ass. /rant

[Uytuun]

*pets kitty* there there

[runvardh]

*pets kitty* there there

*purrs happily* =^.^=

[MJ_]

It usually helps of the guy you have the relationship and the kids with actually does half the work in this area or more depending on how tied up his stuff is. There are times when I look at a lot of the more lazy idiots who like to call themselves fathers, but hardly put shit into their children or their marriages other than money and it really chaps my ass. /rant

People like Runvardh are why I have hope for the future.

[Enyo]

Institution over relationship again.



I don't understand how women can set themselves up for children, a career, a social life, hobbies and a relationship and expect all these things to turn out super duper great. Why would you want to do that to yourself? Perhaps there are some that manage, but it sure sounds impossible to me. Know yourself. I don't think I could handle children, a relationship and a fulfilling career and do all of them well. I'd rather drop the children than half-ass all three and turn out perpetually frustrated and alienated from myself.

And this is why I don't work. I could not go back to school, have a successful relationship with my husband or my child, maintain a household with any degree of efficiency, and work at the same time.

Working in management almost cost me my marriage at my last long-term job. We decided that I should quit, and I did (after giving sufficient notice and training my own replacement.) We thought, after a few months, that maybe it was just that company, so I tried a different company where I worked a normal 45 hour week.

It still didn't work. So, no more full-time jobs until I have my master's. And even then, teaching isn't a normal 45 hour a week job. The shorter hours and the ability to take work home will work well for us.

[Hmm]

I felt pretty sorry for the dude in her story.

I don't. Not because of anything she said about him but because he picked her. He deserves her and she deserves him.

And no, not all women think, feel, and act the way she does. And not all men think, feel and act the way he does.

[heart]

I don't. Not because of anything she said about him but because he picked her. He deserves her and she deserves him.

And no, not all women think, feel, and act the way she does. And not all men think, feel and act the way he does.

But she comes accross so bitter and extreme, it's hard to believe she's being objective in her description of how he is. If we met him, we might all be shocked to find he's not quite the bumbling, clueless selfish pig she's talking about here.

[cafe]

Institution over relationship again.



I don't understand how women can set themselves up for children, a career, a social life, hobbies and a relationship and expect all these things to turn out super duper great. Why would you want to do that to yourself? Perhaps there are some that manage, but it sure sounds impossible to me. Know yourself. I don't think I could handle children, a relationship and a fulfilling career and do all of them well. I'd rather drop the children than half-ass all three and turn out perpetually frustrated and alienated from myself.
I wouldn't have missed out on my kids for anything and my life has been inestimably enriched by my husband, but yeah, my philosophy has been "You can have everything, just not all at once." :D However, at almost forty, I'm rethinking how much I really care about a having a fulfilling post-child career beyond bringing in enough cash to make our retirement comfortable.

There's only so much time in the day and like you say, you do have to prioritize.

[Firelie]

Why are all of these relationship-rant articles so damn boring that I can't get through more than a few paragraphs?

YAWN.

[sarah]

But she comes accross so bitter and extreme, it's hard to believe she's being objective in her description of how he is. If we met him, we might all be shocked to find he's not quite the bumbling, clueless selfish pig she's talking about here.


yeah, I know -- hahaha. In fact, he probably could make a whole long list of annoying things about her. Maybe her husband has an "ideal woman" in the back of his brain that totally doesn't resemble the actual woman he married, but he's wise enough to know that fantasies are just fantasies.

I forgot to mention that it's ridiculous that the author behaves as though she's an authority on how women experience men. I want to tell her that, believe ir or not, many women don't compartmentalize the men in their life into "romance only" and "just friends only" categories. I'm referring to the paragraph where she says that your husband can't be your best friend, and that if he is, you must have no other friends. Um, my husband was one of a group of close-knit best friends for several years prior to our dating each other. He tells me he actually thought about asking me out for an entire year before getting up the nerve to do so, partially because of the age difference but also because he was worried about it ruining our friendship. Well, it didn't ruin anything, and when we got married, those friends didn't suddeny ditch us -- they're still close. Sheesh.

Sarah
ISFP