Structured versus Unstructured thoughts

[Lexlike]

Iq tests, chess game etc are good for people with structured thinking but in which fields is unstructured thinking prefered?? In which situations are structured thoughts preferable and in which the opposite?

[Mighty Mouse]

Creativity is the epitome of unstructured. It literally means the brain doesn't have to follow certain "rules of engagement". It is free to go where it will to come up with ideas.

[Xander]

You need an unstructured mind to see what lies beneath. Too much structure and it all relies upon your origional foundations being correct. The unstructured mind is usually the one to critique the foundations and move things forward... they're rare though.. it takes an epiphany. The structured ones are those who move things forward in the day to day tasks... that don't require imagination :devil:

[mlittrell]

there can be creativity in structure. look at a novel for example. creativity, in my mind, can come in structured and unstructured ways.

[mlittrell]

You need an unstructured mind to see what lies beneath. Too much structure and it all relies upon your origional foundations being correct. The unstructured mind is usually the one to critique the foundations and move things forward... they're rare though.. it takes an epiphany. The structured ones are those who move things forward in the day to day tasks... that don't require imagination :devil:

as usual, very well put

btw if you could, please define what you mean by an unstructured and a structured mind

[Mighty Mouse]

I wasn't clear.

I didn't mean that creativity is random. There is a context.

Creativity however looks for new ways of understanding and conceptualizing. As far as the brain is concerned whatever is new to it is unstructured.

The structured portion would be anything the brain has learned to understand and do already because it has done it before.

[mlittrell]

ahhh thank you for clearing that up. ok, we are on the same page now. good call :)

[Xander]

as usual, very well put

btw if you could, please define what you mean by an unstructured and a structured mind
A<B therfore C=A versus "oo what happens if A is 5 and C is 4??"
:D

[mlittrell]

lol reminds me of discrete mathmatics, that was a fun class

[FDG]

An unstructured thought process is best whenever the necessity is to deal with reality in an immediate, raw way.

The first situation that comes to my mind, in which I really needed unstructured thinking (I personally think I'm equally adept (or equally bad) at both modes) was when I was free-climbing.

By the way, I don't think IQ tests rely exclusively on structured forms of thinking. At the very least, the visual part does not.

[entropie]

I constantly use unstructured thinking with woman. Main problem is, it really never gets structured :D

[Lexlike]

By the way, I don't think IQ tests rely exclusively on structured forms of thinking. At the very least, the visual part does not.

True. i really tried to give an example, could not think for any better...

I constantly use unstructured thinking with woman. Main problem is, it really never gets structured

hehe, i see what you mean

[Mighty Mouse]

I constantly use unstructured thinking with woman. Main problem is, it really never gets structured :D

What do you mean by this?

[BlackOp]

As a professional artist....I think they both come into play. I start with random and chaotic ideas then refine into a specific, stylized ..even linear output. It doesnt have to be perfect...just close to individual sensibilities and tone. Perfect (premeditation) sucks the life out of it. Kubrick (INTJ) comes to mind...he would experiment and keep what worked (to him). The 2001 end tunnel scene was born from "what if" and experimentation. You have to know what your looking for in order to find it.......

[Angry Ayrab]

I don't get what you mean by structured vs. unstructured. My thought process when observed from the outside seems really random and even when I explain everythought that went into how I jumped the idea to the next level, people will respond with... oh ok I get it but WTF how the hell do you do that.

Anyway, what I wanted to ask is if pattern recognition falls under structured thought sphere. Why I ask this, is that personally I am a very very very dangerous chess player and the only reason that is because I can always tell by a persons move what they want to do through pattern recognition. Also, I do very well on standardized test because I can always pick up on what they are looking for by observing the patterns through a few practice tests. What does this make my thought process, just curious?

Now mind you, I am not saying I am smarter than others at all, I just find that my Ne helps me out alot and I do rely on it heavily.

[mlittrell]

I think most of this can be explained really well with functions. And Angry Ayrab...I know exactly what you are saying and being that Ne is your primary function, you would rely on it heavliy. Remember ENFP's have Te as their tertiary function so if developed enough, ENFPs can wallow in the Te realm a little bit...If you learn to use it to your advantage, which it sounds like you have, it can be quite helpful.

[Maabus1999]

Creativity is the epitome of unstructured. It literally means the brain doesn't have to follow certain "rules of engagement". It is free to go where it will to come up with ideas.

I disagree with this completely.

[Jack Flak]

I disagree with this completely.
+1 Am I sleeping? Have I slept?

Creating something out of nothing is not unstructured. It is the opposite.

[Mighty Mouse]

I don't get what you mean by structured vs. unstructured. My thought process when observed from the outside seems really random and even when I explain everythought that went into how I jumped the idea to the next level, people will respond with... oh ok I get it but WTF how the hell do you do that.

Anyway, what I wanted to ask is if pattern recognition falls under structured thought sphere. Why I ask this, is that personally I am a very very very dangerous chess player and the only reason that is because I can always tell by a persons move what they want to do through pattern recognition. Also, I do very well on standardized test because I can always pick up on what they are looking for by observing the patterns through a few practice tests. What does this make my thought process, just curious?

Now mind you, I am not saying I am smarter than others at all, I just find that my Ne helps me out alot and I do rely on it heavily.

Figuring out patterns is interesting to this thread because it is a perfect example of how our brains are capable of marrying both structured and unstructured thoughts to produce results.

What I mean by this is that in order for you to see a pattern the brain first must think unstructurally. It must be open to what is possible. Then it must take that information and interpret it through structured channels such as chess moves. To recognize a pattern the brain keeps going back and forth until it hits structure it understands which is the pattern. Once you have the pattern you have the structure.

If you want to try something new you will bounce over to the unstructured and back to structured once you figure out how that changes the pattern...

Bottom line: your left and right brain hemispheres have good communication at least as far as chess and standardized tests are concerned.

Does that make sense?

It is actually a good skill to have in many instances.

[BlackOp]

Creativity is the epitome of unstructured. It literally means the brain doesn't have to follow certain "rules of engagement". It is free to go where it will to come up with ideas.

The masters had definitive convictions...thats why their bodies of work have a distinct temperament and tone. The biggest secret is they never show you their mistakes....which often is 90% of the work.

I mixed 30 hours of real-time visuals to a DVR...kept less than 12 minutes of content, The end result looks totally insane and chaotic. There was a method to the madness that no one will ever see...its deliberate. No one cares about your mistakes...:) So it is a balance of both......IMO.

[Mighty Mouse]

I don't characterize creativity with randomness. Creativity is the brain making connections it has not made before. That is an unstructured thought. There is always a context.

[BlackOp]

I don't characterize creativity with randomness. Creativity is the brain making connections it has not made before. That is an unstructured thought. There is always a context.

I guess it comes down to your idea of creativity....I'm a perfectionist so my concept may differ from others. I was speaking in a context of art. A child going apeshit with finger paints could be viewed as creativity.

[Mighty Mouse]

The unstructured thought process that goes into creativity and the subjective perception if something is creative are two very different things to me.

The process of creativity is unstructured. The judgment if something is creative is structured.

[Alpha Prime]

I disagree with this completely.

What is your reasoning behind this?

[BlueWing]

Iq tests, chess game etc are good for people with structured thinking but in which fields is unstructured thinking prefered?? In which situations are structured thoughts preferable and in which the opposite?

Whatever does not require much logical thinking. Where the preference for Feeling over Thinking is distinctly expressed.

The arts.
Literature.
Counselling.
Nursing.

And so on..where you just put whatever non-sense your mind has conjured out there without thinking through.

There is no such thing as unstructured thought. As thought and logic are the same thing. All thinking could be described in logical terms. Some thought processes are considered 'good thinking' because they are in tune with principles of logic, other thought processes are considered 'flawed thinking' because they do not follow the principles of logic.

The difference between structured thought and unstructured is that between sound and unsound thinking.

The latter could be useful not for the property of being unsound thought itself, but because shutting down your thinking faculties may leave room for expression of emotion which is of benefit under a number of circumstances.

[murkrow]

HAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, nurses are real loose cannons.

[mlittrell]

"Structure is a fundamental and sometimes intangible notion covering the recognition, observation, nature, and stability of patterns and relationships of entities."

Thank you Wikipedia lol

My question is what is the application to this in the real world (structued vs. unstructured)?

[Xander]

As thought and logic are the same thing.
Where'd this one come from? Have you been taking advice from lolcats or something?

[Mighty Mouse]

My question is what is the application to this in the real world (structued vs. unstructured)?[/QUOTE]

I am a trainer...

For me a real time application is when I am going to create a new presentation on complex content. I usually go for a walk and let my mind wander. To me that means I am not trying to guide where the thoughts go or care why they have come up...

At first my mind will go to certain places it's used to going but slowly that begins to fade and I let go...

My imagination begins to take over and I let it go to different ways I can present this new information. I haven't structured this training material yet. I haven't organized it... I am simply exploring different creative ways to do it. Some are ridiculous and some are boring but usually one will somehow standout.

I'll take that unstructured idea and then try to impose structure with the content at hand and decide if it is viable or not.

Does that make sense?

[mlittrell]

ok thanks for the reply, another question if i may?

how is this related to MBTI...can you find a link between the two?

[Mighty Mouse]

ok thanks for the reply, another question if i may?

how is this related to MBTI...can you find a link between the two?

Yes...this letting go which I describe in my example is more of a right brain function. Structure is a left brain function. Every person is born with one side of the brain being more dominant than the other. This simply means that it is the first filter that information is put through in order for things to make sense to us. Not that we don't use both... It is simply first.

Types with variations of the STJs rely much more heavily on their left side (structure) for making sense of the world while NFPs on their right are more prone to make sense of information conceptually and in broader terms (less structure).

Is this true across the board? No, because our environment and the people we grow up with will influence which side of the brain gets developed more intentionally. MBTI is a way to decipher the brain's preference if it wasn't influenced by the outside world. Since we have the ability to do all functions what actually ends up being developed is sometimes what our parents tell us is best. That's why you'll have so many people wondering if their type is true or not...some of the lines have been grayed.

[mlittrell]

Yes...this letting go which I describe in my example is more of a right brain function. Structure is a left brain function. Every person is born with one side of the brain being more dominant than the other. This simply means that it is the first filter that information is put through in order for things to make sense to us. Not that we don't use both... It is simply first.

Types with variations of the STJs rely much more heavily on their left side (structure) for making sense of the world while NFPs on their right are more prone to make sense of information conceptually and in broader terms (less structure).

Is this true across the board? No, because our environment and the people we grow up with will influence which side of the brain gets developed more intentionally. MBTI is a way to decipher the brain's preference if it wasn't influenced by the outside world. Since we have the ability to do all functions what actually ends up being developed is sometimes what our parents tell us is best. That's why you'll have so many people wondering if their type is true or not...some of the lines have been grayed.

i know this to be true to a point. remember personality type is related to different areas of the brain. bear with me this might be slightly off NT --> frontal lobe NF --> perreinial lobe (sorry for the spelling) SP --> temporal lobe SJ --> occipital lobe

i also meant is this related to the functions in mbti

[Mighty Mouse]

what do you mean exactly by the functions of mbti?

[mlittrell]

you know Si, Ni, Se, Ne, Fi, Fe, Ti, Te ? those

sorry for being so vague

[Mighty Mouse]

In my training work, I find that the correlation of the functions is more vital in how the brain learns and therefore how I teach a group than addressing the separate functions.
So how much structure I use depends on the type of audience.


When I coach individuals, the separate functions are helpful in understanding why someone considers something important or not. Which in turn helps to figure out what is motivating to them, what isn't, and what the person needs to focus on in order to achieve their goals.

My approach is more structured with those who have an appeal for it and less so for those that don't.