Poor English

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Feel free to quote examples of poor English where there was no excuse for it.

For example, who thinks the British know best how to use the English language?

"He said more attacks would take place in Pakistan's major urban conurbations unless the army withdrew from the tribal areas." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7574267.stm)

From the same article: "Mr Musharraf, a key ally of President Bush's "war on terror" stepped down after nine years in power to avoid being impeached." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7574267.stm)

The BBC staff either has difficulty with appositional phrases or doesn't know how to copy-edit. Either way, it's not good.

[nolla]

"All your base are belong to us"
- some old game that was translated by Japanese

[Ivy]

Ooh! Ooh! I have one!

Renowned curator Jacques Saunière staggered through the vaulted archway of the museum's Grand Gallery. He lunged for the nearest painting he could see, a Caravaggio. Grabbing the gilded frame, the seventy-six-year-old man heaved the masterpiece toward himself until it tore from the wall and Saunière collapsed backward in a heap beneath the canvas.

I posted it awhile back in a thread on INTPC about "bad opening lines." It is the opening line to The Da Vinci Code (which IMO was awfully written).

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Ooh! Ooh! I have one!



I posted it awhile back in a thread on INTPC about "bad opening lines." It is the opening line to The Da Vinci Code (which IMO was awfully written).

Very nice... erm... very bad...

Seriously, though... that's a good one. Never read the book.


_______________


As for the Japanese one... I'm torn between the thoughts that 1) they're Japanese, so it's alright... and 2) they're professional game developers who probably have access to at least one fluent speaker of English in Japan...

[CzeCze]

You should enter the contest for the 'worst opening line ever' it's run out of Santa Clara University I think. You have to think of the worst possible opening line for a novel.

[Jack Flak]

Quote:
Renowned curator Jacques Saunière staggered through the vaulted archway of the museum's Grand Gallery. He lunged for the nearest painting he could see, a Caravaggio. Grabbing the gilded frame, the seventy-six-year-old man heaved the masterpiece toward himself until it tore from the wall and Saunière collapsed backward in a heap beneath the canvas.
Would have gotten an A in any English class I was in. :steam:

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Would have gotten an A in any English class I was in. :steam:

It's melodramatic and the first sentence is loaded with way too much information:

a) Jacques Sauniere... full name... we could have found out the name later... been provided with just the first or last name, or not even..

b) He's apparently a renowned curator...

c) stumbling through the vaulted archway...

d) Grand Gallery of the museum...

Particularly as an opening line, it's too weighty. But that's just my opinion. Why do you dislike it, Ivy?

[Ivy]

Mostly just because I can see the author smugly plinking away at a typewriter coming up with it. (I still see typewriters instead of computers when I imagine writers.) Also, since when do we start novels with words like "Renowned"?

[Samuel De Mazarin]

^ yeah... very true... and that's totally on the ball with Renowned... it's not a bad scene... it's just not executed well.

[Jack Flak]

It sucks; I'm saying that sucks doesn't matter in English class.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Here's the most famous "worst opening line" ever:

"It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents--except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness."

--Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, Paul Clifford (1830)

Yes... this was where "It was a dark and stormy night..." was born.

[Ivy]

Found a blogger who describes why it rubs me the wrong way:

Language Log: The Dan Brown code (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000844.html)

I think what enabled the first word to tip me off that I was about to spend a number of hours in the company of one of the worst prose stylists in the history of literature was this. Putting curriculum vitae details into complex modifiers on proper names or definite descriptions is what you do in journalistic stories about deaths; you just don't do it in describing an event in a narrative. So this might be reasonable text for the opening of a newspaper report the next day:

Renowned curator Jacques Saunière died last night in the Louvre at the age of 76.

But Brown packs such details into the first two words of an action sequence — details of not only his protagonist's profession but also his prestige in the field. It doesn't work here. It has the ring of utter ineptitude. The details have no relevance, of course, to what is being narrated (Saunière is fleeing an attacker and pulls down the painting to trigger the alarm system and the security gates). We could have deduced that he would be fairly well known in the museum trade from the fact that he was curating at the Louvre.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

It sucks; I'm saying that sucks doesn't matter in English class.

Generally... maybe... but it depends on who's teaching (doesn't it always?)...

My English teacher would have skewered us for something like that...

[Jack Flak]

but it depends on who's teaching (doesn't it always?)...
I guess that's why I hate English classes.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

I guess that's why I hate English classes.

And that's why I don't participate in Creative Writing courses at my college or plan to do an MFA... people who can write are just able to write, and where they lack they know exactly what they need to do. It's only the people who aren't born writers but who are still desperate to publish who have to rely on MFAs, in my opinion.

I'll admit, however, that I see a lot of talented writers still getting MFA's, and I'm always puzzled, since they could have probably spent their time learning something new and exciting (which would contribute to their work) while still honing their writing skills on their own time and with interested peers.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can teach grammar and a certain amount of style, but you can't teach someone to be a good or great writer. He/she just is one.

[Jack Flak]

I guess what I'm saying is that you can teach grammar and a certain amount of style, but you can't teach someone to be a good or great writer. He/she just is one.
...And I guess what I'm saying is that even if you're born a great writer, your English teacher might have a different idea of great, and you'll get merely average grades (Even though you might entertain people with your writing in the real world). It's dangerous to be an exception.

[Ivy]

Getting average grades is danger?

[Jack Flak]

Getting average grades is danger?
Could be...What if you need a good grade for some reason? Anyway, I'm capable of adapting to teachers' whims, it just makes me sick to my stomach.

Note: It's also extremely insulting. Have you seen papers written by "average" students? I mean, my God. I couldn't even explain them without writing an essay of my own. They're a bit like Dan Brown's work, but with more words and less information.

[Little Linguist]

BAH! I could write a book on this subject; if people could speak English perfectly, however, I would not have a job. It does not bother me when Germans or non-native speakers make blatant grammatical errors. It does not even bother me when native speakers do it in works that do not matter. But professionals who write badly just piss me off. It makes me think - damn, hire me! I could do a better job! :shock:

[Victor]

I guess what I'm saying is that you can teach grammar and a certain amount of style, but you can't teach someone to be a good or great writer. He/she just is one.

This is an interesting problem. Particularly as creative writing courses have mushroomed. They are everywhere. And everyone, well almost everyone, wants one.

I think this can be explained because creativity and creative writing has become visible to everyone.

And remembering that all environments are invisible - fish didn't discover water - that means creative writing, or even writing, is no longer our environment.

So what is our environment now?

Well we are in it at this very moment - we are in the electronic environment or what some call the noosphere.

And whereas the literate environment creates values such as creativity and empathy, the electronic environment, the noosphere, creates presence.

For instance, Paris Hilton, is pure presence. She has no or little creativity. And most important she is disparaged by almost everyone but we can't take our eyes off her because she is present.

So as we drive forward looking in the rear vision mirror, we are looking into the past environment that values creativity. And when we look through the windscreen we are looking into the electronic environment that values presence.

And most of us haven't yet learnt to value presence, so it is only natural that we disparage presence and of course Paris Hilton.

And so here we are, Sammy, (I hope you don't mind me calling you Sammy), present to each other in almost real time.

Really the only thing that matters here is our presence - either we post and are present or we don't post and we are absent. We are like God and the Angels - whose presence is only concealed by their absence.

So we can expect, dear Sammy, that in the not too distant future that all the creative writing classes will be replaced by classes in Presence.

And Marshall McLuhan and Paris Hilton will be our patron saints.

[colmena]

It seems learnt is OK. :rolleyes: My English is so pour.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

^ "This is the sort of English up with which I shall not put."

[Oberon]

It seems learnt is OK. :rolleyes:

Is it?

Well then, that's quite reassuring. Because a couple years ago my wife learnt my son how to read.

[colmena]

^ "This is the sort of English up with which I shall not put."

Then put it down, you irrational man ;).


Put it down.


*deep breathe*


Just put it down.



.

[Oberon]

Then put it down, you irrational man ;).


Put it down.


*deep breathe*


Just put it down.



.


Hey, lay off. He was quoting Churchill. You're not allowed to bust on Churchill.

[colmena]

Hey, lay off. He was quoting Churchill. You're not allowed to bust on Churchill.

Yes I can. I'm watching John Nettles. John Nettles owns.

Gah. I just missed The African Queen again.

[colmena]

I just realised how cutting 'irrational man' could be to an NTP. Even when said in jest and towards a quote.

My friend's boyfriend told him that he had no sense of rhythm. And my friend is a bassist. That evening was unpleasant, a shoe was fervently launched into a shed. Olive oil went everywhere.

I'm only upset because I think my dog is going to die soon.

I'm sincerely sorry.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

I just realised how cutting 'irrational man' could be to an NTP. Even when said in jest and towards a quote.

My friend's boyfriend told him that he had no sense of rhythm. And my friend is a bassist. That evening was unpleasant, a shoe was fervently launched into a shed. Olive oil went everywhere.

I'm only upset because I think my dog is going to die soon.

I'm sincerely sorry.

Don't worry 'bout it. Your smiley face nullified the potential attack.

You PMS'ing or what? ;)

[CzeCze]

You know if you guys keep talking like this, your grammar will become permanently ungooded.

It's like making a funny face and then having it freeze.

Honestly though, most people, even in white collar job environments requiring a lot of writing and reading have a very poor grasp of grammar and writing. They write the way people talk. Netspeak.

[Oberon]

Netspeak.

Lately at home, when something goes mildly wrong, I am prone to say "Oh noes!"

It makes my children look at me funny. When they do that, I say "Lols!"

And they shake their heads and go do something useful.

[ygolo]

Help, please!

I make up my grammar and spelling, have repetitive diction, lack brevity, use ad-hoc paragraph structure, ramble, and miss many mistakes during proof-reads.

How do I improve my writing quickly?

[Victor]

It seems learnt is OK. :rolleyes:

In matters of good English I always defer to Badger -

"The Toad, having finished his breakfast, picked up a stout stick and swung it vigorously, belabouring imaginary animals. `I'll learn 'em to steal my house!' he cried. `I'll learn 'em, I'll learn 'em!'

`Don't say "learn 'em," Toad,' said the Rat, greatly shocked. `It's not good English.'

`What are you always nagging at Toad for?' inquired the Badger, rather peevishly. `What's the matter with his English? It's the same what I use myself, and if it's good enough for me, it ought to be good enough for you!'

`I'm very sorry,' said the Rat humbly. `Only I THINK it ought to be "teach 'em," not "learn 'em."'

`But we don't WANT to teach 'em,' replied the Badger. `We want to LEARN 'em--learn 'em, learn 'em! And what's more, we're going to DO it, too!'

`Oh, very well, have it your own way,' said the Rat. He was getting rather muddled about it himself, and presently he retired into a corner, where he could be heard muttering, `Learn 'em, teach 'em, teach 'em, learn 'em!' till the Badger told him rather sharply to leave off."

- "Wind in the Willows", by Kenneth Grahame.

[Nocapszy]

Victor always knows just what to say.
:wubbie:

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Help, please!

I make up my grammar and spelling, have repetitive diction, lack brevity, use ad-hoc paragraph structure, ramble, and miss many mistakes during proof-reads.

How do I improve my writing quickly?

Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style"... that's a classic and a must-have for anyone who cares about the English language.

I'd also recommend "Rhyme's Reason" by John Hollander... it's a very small and beautifully written book on English verse, but it teaches you a lot about how the language can be used to create different effects. Even a rank amateur's grasp of the mechanics and aesthetics of verse can have, when used wisely and sparingly, a very excellent influence on one's prose.

[colmena]

- "Wind in the Willows", by Kenneth Grahame.

I don't disagree with the post's sentiment.

As people in RL and on here have noticed, I regularly make up my own words (often passing them off as existing dialect).

I thought I was picking up on mistakes on a finicky thread. I see I was wrong.

I should have more faith in you, Ted.
(no misnomers there)

[Mort Belfry]

Also, since when do we start novels with words like "Renowned"?

What, an adjective?

But one thing I did notice the other day on my old crappy laptop, is that when it dials up the internet it says, "Dialing," when it should say, "Dialling."

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Those who break the rules of the game ought to understand and have played by the rules of the game first. Otherwise, their deviations might merely be seen as deviant as opposed to innovative.

[Oberon]

Help, please!

I make up my grammar and spelling, have repetitive diction, lack brevity, use ad-hoc paragraph structure, ramble, and miss many mistakes during proof-reads.

How do I improve my writing quickly?

Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style"... that's a classic and a must-have for anyone who cares about the English language.


And if you're looking for a rationale from Strunk and White that will solve a multitude of writing ills in one fell swoop, I give you this simple dictum from Will Strunk: Omit needless words.

Let that be your guiding principle for all serious writing, and you will rarely go astray.

[spirilis]

Half the crap I write is bad in one way or another. It seems the longer it's been since I've had an english class, the worse my english gets.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

And if you're looking for a rationale from Strunk and White that will solve a multitude of writing ills in one fell swoop, I give you this simple dictum from Will Strunk: Omit needless words.

Let that be your guiding principle for all serious writing, and you will rarely go astray.

Excellent point, Oberon! One that I would do well to be conscious of at all times...

It's funny... a lot of people find Joyce, particularly in certain spots of Ulysses and, of course, the infamous Finnegan's Wake, to be quite prolix and highfalutin. But he always maintained that he was very exact in his choice of words and strove to never use more words than necessary for what he was describing. That he was describing complex emotions and situations ended up requiring more verbiage than some felt comfortable with.

__________

There's a great story, possibly apocryphal, about Joyce's writing process.

He'd often write for six, eight, ten hours in the day, fixed immovably in front of his typewriter or notebook. One day, he met a friend in the evening and was relaxing after a particularly grueling workday.

The friend asked, "So, how'd the writing go?"

"Oh, excellently! Excellently! I really got a lot done today. I'm very pleased."

"Ah, really? That's wonderful. How much did you get written?"

"A sentence. Seven words," came the matter-of-fact reply.

The friend was a bit flabbergasted and, with a moment to adjust, he queried, "I see! That... uhm... was it so very difficult for you to find the right words?"

Joyce replied simply, "Not at all. I had them from the very beginning. It was determining the right order that was so tough."

___________________________

[milti girl]

What, an adjective?

But one thing I did notice the other day on my old crappy laptop, is that when it dials up the internet it says, "Dialing," when it should say, "Dialling."

Maybe your laptop was manufactured in USA. Here in India we use British spelling, so for us it would be 'Dialling' - but hey, I haven't ever noticed what it said when it dialled! It probably said 'Dialing', though, because my laptop seems to be using the American spelling too.

[substitute]

I've noticed that new mailboxes in the UK (locally known as post boxes since Victoria's time) have started to appear with the phrase "posting box" on them. To me, the only English milieu in which that doesn't sound weird is if you say it with an Indian accent :laugh:

There are so many dialects of English, it's a world language - unless something is addressed to an international audience and clearly intending to be written in International Standard English, I think people should be tolerant of variations in spelling/grammar etc in writing that comes from outside the region of their own native version of English.

It irritates me when British people "correct" Americans... and when both Americans and British people claim authority over the language to correct Indians and Singaporeans using language that's perfectly valid in their own national English. English in the world media is overwhelmingly American, followed by British, which leads these countries to assume a kind of arrogance that I don't feel is justified - just because their dominance in the media means that everyone's familiar with their dialects, doesn't make their dialects any more valid or authoritative than any others. If we don't understand something a Nigerian says in Nigerian English, it's not right to put him down and demand he use our dialects; we should just get used to his. After all, he got used to ours.

I feel quite strongly about this, being as French is a big part of my linguistic landscape... and I often feel frustrated at the stagnating, artificially constraining effect that the Academie Francais has on French... I feel it's a strength of English that there is no comparable institution that claims possession of it, which is what gives it the freedom and flexibility to become so adaptive and expressive. I don't want English to become as rigid as French.

[Mondo]

As a militant leftist, I have come here to present a website which contains a myriad of quotes from one of the English Language's worst enemies: Bushisms - Funny George Bush Quotes Updated Frequently (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm)

[Mo_(operalover)]

Here's the most famous "worst opening line" ever:

"It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents--except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness."

--Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, Paul Clifford (1830)

Yes... this was where "It was a dark and stormy night..." was born.

Oh dear, I probably used that opening line dozens of times in creative writing lessons when I was in primary schooling. :blush:

[FDG]

I'm a fan of poor Italian. In fact, except for academic papers, I encourage using the simplest and most coarse ways of expression.

[THEANO]

It was a dark and stormy night...and I felt compelled to find these old favorites of mine:
These are actual translations into English that are being used:


In a Tokyo Hotel: Is forbitten to steal hotel towels please. If you are not person to do such thing is please not to read notis.

In another Japanese hotel room: Please to bathe inside the tub.

In a Bucharest hotel lobby: The lift is being fixed for the next day. During that time we regret that you will be unbearable.

In a Leipzig elevator: Do not enter the lift backwards, and only when lit up.

In a Belgrade hotel elevator: To move the cabin, push button for wishing floor. If the cabin should enter more persons, each one should press a number of wishing floor. Driving is then going alphabetically by national order.

In a Paris hotel elevator: Please leave your values at the front desk.

In a hotel in Athens: Visitors are expected to complain at the office between the hours of 9 and 11 A.M. daily.

In a Yugoslavian hotel: The flattening of underwear with pleasure is the job of the chambermaid.

In a Japanese hotel: You are invited to take advantage of the chambermaid.

In the lobby of a Moscow hotel across from a Russian Orthodox monastery: You are welcome to visit the cemetery where famous Russian and Soviet composers, artists, and writers are buried daily except Thursday.

In an Austrian hotel catering to skiers: Not to perambulate the corridors in the hours of repose in the boots of ascension.

On the menu of a Swiss restaurant: Our wines leave you nothing to hope for.

On the menu of a Polish hotel: Salad a firm's own make; limpid red beet soup with cheesy dumplings in the form of a finger; roasted duck let loose; beef rashers beaten up in the country people's fashion.

In a Hong Kong supermarket: For your convenience, we recommend courteous, efficient self-service.

Outside a Hong Kong tailor shop: Ladies may have a fit upstairs.

In a Rhodes tailor shop: Order your summers suit. Because is big rush we will execute customers in strict rotation.

Similarly, from the Soviet Weekly: There will be a Moscow Exhibition of Aets by 15,000 Soviet Republic painters and sculptors. These were executed over the past two years.

In an East African newspaper: A new swimming pool is rapidly taking shape since the contractors have thrown in the bulk of their workers.

In a Vienna hotel: In case of fire, do your utmost to alarm the hotel porter.

A sign posted in Germany's Black Forest: It is strictly forbidden on our black forest camping site that people of different sex, for instance, men and women, live together in one tent unless they are married with each other for that purpose.

In a Zurich hotel: Because of the impropriety of entertaining guests of the opposite sex in the bedroom, it is suggested that the lobby be used for this purpose.

In an advertisement by a Hong Kong dentist: Teeth extracted by the latest Methodists.

A translated sentence from a Russian chess book: A lot of water has been passed under the bridge since this variation has been played.

In a Rome laundry: Ladies, leave your clothes here and spend the afternoon having a good time.

In a Czechoslovakian tourist agency: Take one of our horse-driven city tours -- we guarantee no miscarriages.

Advertisement for donkey rides in Thailand: Would you like to ride on your own ass?

On the faucet in a Finnish washroom: To stop the drip, turn cock to right.

In the window of a Swedish furrier: Fur coats made for ladies from their own skin.

On the box of a clockwork toy made in Hong Kong: Guaranteed to work throughout its useful life.

Detour sign in Kyushi, Japan: Stop: Drive Sideways.

In a Swiss mountain inn: Special today -- no ice cream.

In a Bangkok temple: It is forbidden to enter a woman even a foreigner if dressed as a man.

In a Tokyo bar: Special cocktails for the ladies with nuts.

In a Copenhagen airline ticket office: We take your bags and send them in all directions.

On the door of a Moscow hotel room: If this is your first visit to the USSR, you are welcome to it.

In a Norwegian cocktail lounge: Ladies are requested not to have children in the bar.

At a Budapest zoo: Please do not feed the animals. If you have any suitable food, give it to the guard on duty.

In the office of a Roman doctor: Specialist in women and other diseases.

In an Acapulco hotel: The manager has personally passed all the water served here.

In a Tokyo shop: Our nylons cost more than common, but you'll find they are best in the long run.

From a Japanese information booklet about using a hotel air conditioner:
Cooles and Heates:
If you want just condition of warm in your room, please control yourself.

From a brochure of a car rental firm in Tokyo: When passenger of foot heave in sight, tootle the horn. Trumpet him melodiously at first, but if he still obstacles your passage then tootle him with vigor.

Two signs from a Majorcan shop entrance:
- English well talking.
- Here speeching American.

[Ivy]

:D Those are great! I especially love the one about riding your own ass.

[THEANO]

:D Those are great! I especially love the one about riding your own ass.

My very favorite is

From a brochure of a car rental firm in Tokyo: When passenger of foot heave in sight, tootle the horn. Trumpet him melodiously at first, but if he still obstacles your passage then tootle him with vigor.

Ever since the first time I read it, every time I hear someone "tootling with vigor" at the intersection, I trumpet him melodiously right back (right after I joyfully give him a one finger greeting)

[kuranes]

My very favorite is

From a brochure of a car rental firm in Tokyo: When passenger of foot heave in sight, tootle the horn. Trumpet him melodiously at first, but if he still obstacles your passage then tootle him with vigor.

Ever since the first time I read it, every time I hear someone "tootling with vigor" at the intersection, I trumpet him melodiously right back (right after I joyfully give him a one finger greeting)

:rofl1::thumbup: