NTs, how you test people's ideas?

[chatoyer]

(I'm trying to figure out if this is my NF-hypersensitive perception or not......)

Is it common for you guys to test everyone's ideas constantly? Do you do it more with non-NTs or do NTs get more of a pass? Is it a compliment? Is it an insult? Is it neutral? Do you ever get to a point with a person that you accept their ideas & insights without so much battle, scrutiny, skepticism?

I just feel like I'm constantly proving myself with some of the NTs in my life, am I oversensitive? Part of me is defensive about it, where I expect less of a battle...based on my history with the particular person, does my history of giving good insight, or presenting an interesting idea, or being more perceptive, not get factored into the present? Is it a jumbled mess, where I'm unaware of ideas I've had that have been rejected by the NT, so I'm put in this strange camp that some percentage of my ideas that are good determine my standing with these individual NT persons?

[Jennifer]

Is it common for you guys to test everyone's ideas constantly? Do you do it more with non-NTs or do NTs get more of a pass? Is it a compliment? Is it an insult? Is it neutral? Do you ever get to a point with a person that you accept their ideas & insights without so much battle, scrutiny, skepticism?

I usually don't have to poke a ton on people's ideas, in the sense that I can tell just how they word a question or what idea(s) they provide and what sort of information comes with the initial articulation of the idea whether their process is trustworthy.

Sometimes on forums I will push for other reasons. (for example, I'll think an idea is completely absurd but feel like it's worth highlighting it, to clarify that, so I'll ask a pointed question; IRL, I might have just completely dismissed the idea without even mentioning anything.)

If it's someone who seems cogent enough and I can tell they're thoughtful, I'll ask questions about it to find out more information. Sometimes the questions are broad.

Sometimes they're more pointed, if I have some notable "weak spots" in mind with their comment and want to see how they dealt with them.
If I ask an "obvious weak spot" question and their answer shows they have dismissed the weak spot without justification or haven't even bothered to think about it, I mentally downgrade my estimation of their thinking style... no t a personal thing, I'm just flagging the "potential soundness" of their ideas and will adjust again if they show more thought later.

as far as NTs vs other types?

I expect more from NTs in terms of hard logic ... not because they might be better but because they often CLAIM to be and ride on their laurels. So I'm going to expect it from them and be more rigorous in how I judge their comments. i hate it when people play the snooty NT card, especially when I think their thinking is shoddy, and I'm going to hold them to their own standards.

Other types sometimes have other broad priorities and I try to read their comments in light of those, rather than just trying to dissect the "pure logical integrity" of their comments all the time.

I just feel like I'm constantly proving myself with some of the NTs in my life, am I oversensitive?

It depends partly on how the NTs in your life behave.

I guess as case in point: This is one of those questions, where I am like, how can I possibly answer this in the way it is phrased? Logically, the question makes no sense. You didn't provide enough information for anyone to know if you are being oversensitive.

therefore I shift gears and see it as a statement of how you feel in a particular relationship, and I read it as information rather than as a real question, even if you phrased it that way. And you do go on to say:

Part of me is defensive about it, where I expect less of a battle...based on my history with the particular person, does my history of giving good insight, or presenting an interesting idea, or being more perceptive, not get factored into the present? Is it a jumbled mess, where I'm unaware of ideas I've had that have been rejected by the NT, so I'm put in this strange camp that some percentage of my ideas that are good determine my standing with these individual NT persons?

...where it sounds like you are expressing discontent that your past intelligence is not getting factored into your current relationship with this person and that you feel on some level this is unfair...

[InaF3157]

I don't think anyone gets a pass; at least I always need a reason. It doesn't matter that someone has the authority/standing that should inspire confidence; they still have to start from scratch. However, you can open yourself up to enhanced scrutiny if you have been tested and found wanting before. For example, a college friend of mine (NF, too) had the habit of generalizing from her personal experience, making gigantic leaps of logic and otherwise talking out of her ass. I was aware of this, so I developed a habit of asking how she reached a particular conclusion - show your work, so to speak - which enraged her greatly, but the alternative was to take everything she said with a huge grain of salt. It turns out she was right a good deal, but I could not trust her on her hunch alone, partly because she was wrong in a not insignificant no. of cases.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Just do it the way a child would... keep asking "But why?"... if you don't want to sound ridiculous by responding to every answer with a why, rephrase the "why" in some other, more discreet form.

It's as simple as that.

[Little Linguist]

(I'm trying to figure out if this is my NF-hypersensitive perception or not......)

Is it common for you guys to test everyone's ideas constantly? Do you do it more with non-NTs or do NTs get more of a pass? Is it a compliment? Is it an insult? Is it neutral? Do you ever get to a point with a person that you accept their ideas & insights without so much battle, scrutiny, skepticism?

I just feel like I'm constantly proving myself with some of the NTs in my life, am I oversensitive? Part of me is defensive about it, where I expect less of a battle...based on my history with the particular person, does my history of giving good insight, or presenting an interesting idea, or being more perceptive, not get factored into the present? Is it a jumbled mess, where I'm unaware of ideas I've had that have been rejected by the NT, so I'm put in this strange camp that some percentage of my ideas that are good determine my standing with these individual NT persons?

I'm an NF, and I do it constantly!!!! :shock::blush::doh:

Are you sure it's an NT thing? Maybe just an N thing? Not sure???

[Little Linguist]

Just do it the way a child would... keep asking "But why?"... if you don't want to sound ridiculous by responding to every answer with a why, rephrase the "why" in some other, more discreet form.

It's as simple as that.

Hehehehe, I do this *all* the time!!!! :D My questions differ depending on the audience (sophisication, intelligence, etc.) and the mood (intellectual, jovial, antagonistic, etc.)

"Could you please explain your concept in more depth?"

"I'm not quite sure I understand. Could you rephrase your statement?"

"What justification do you have for making such a claim?!?!?"

"What do you think the results will be from your experiment?"

"WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!?!" (<---Okay, for one of my "f" moments)

"What consequences do you think your ideas/beliefs will have?!"

"What brought you to this conclusion?"

"Do you think you may have been a bit too hasty?"

"Please explain your reasoning."

"I'm afraid I don't see your point."

"WHY?!?!?!?!?"

"What rationale have you used to arrive at this point?!"

"Have you performed a cost-benefit analysis to arrive at this answer?"

"Have you really thought this through? I think you need to re-work this."

"Let's try looking for the underlying causes."

And if someone is too out there, I will just dismiss him as a complete idiot. But if we have something to work with, I find challenging arguments quite engaging.

Do you NTs agree???

[booyalab]

Is it common for you guys to test everyone's ideas constantly?
I think it's pretty common for me.


Do you do it more with non-NTs or do NTs get more of a pass? Is it a compliment? Is it an insult? Is it neutral? When I criticize an idea, I'm not taking the person behind the idea into account at all. I tend to assume that they are most interested in the workability of the idea, like I would be. It's hard for me to conceive why someone would have a personal attachment to their idea just because they thought of it. So I actually think I'm helping. Plus, brainstorming is fun.


Do you ever get to a point with a person that you accept their ideas & insights without so much battle, scrutiny, skepticism? Maybe if it turned into a "battle" each time, I would keep my thoughts to myself. But I wouldn't like it very much. If anything, the closer I get to someone, the more I care more that they achieve success in their endeavors. So why would I act more apathetic?


I just feel like I'm constantly proving myself with some of the NTs in my life, am I oversensitive? Part of me is defensive about it, where I expect less of a battle...based on my history with the particular person, does my history of giving good insight, or presenting an interesting idea, or being more perceptive, not get factored into the present? Is it a jumbled mess, where I'm unaware of ideas I've had that have been rejected by the NT, so I'm put in this strange camp that some percentage of my ideas that are good determine my standing with these individual NT persons?

If you would rather have unquestioning praise than objective feedback when you share an idea, then maybe you shouldn't share your ideas with NTs.

[LucrativeSid]

(I'm trying to figure out if this is my NF-hypersensitive perception or not......)

Is it common for you guys to test everyone's ideas constantly? Do you do it more with non-NTs or do NTs get more of a pass? Is it a compliment? Is it an insult? Is it neutral? Do you ever get to a point with a person that you accept their ideas & insights without so much battle, scrutiny, skepticism?

I just feel like I'm constantly proving myself with some of the NTs in my life, am I oversensitive? Part of me is defensive about it, where I expect less of a battle...based on my history with the particular person, does my history of giving good insight, or presenting an interesting idea, or being more perceptive, not get factored into the present? Is it a jumbled mess, where I'm unaware of ideas I've had that have been rejected by the NT, so I'm put in this strange camp that some percentage of my ideas that are good determine my standing with these individual NT persons?

I hope my answers are accurate enough, because this is not something I'm very conscious about doing, but I know that I do.

I rarely just let something pass unchallenged unless I've already thought about it and think it makes complete sense. I will only ignore you if I don't care about you, so if I like you, then the challenge is a good sign. And one thing I've noticed a lot is that I think I'm being objective, while the other person takes it as a personal attack. In my own eyes, I'm just doing what is necessary for clarity. There's probably certain things you could say to get them to shut up, and certain things you could say that would cause them to push harder.

Why are you sharing the ideas in the first place? Usually when I do I expect a challenge, and I admit, I'm quite turned on by a challenge. My way of thinking has always been to battle ideas until there is a winner and a loser, at which point the loser adopts what he has learned. Me, and someone who thinks like me, wouldn't be affected emotionally by it, even if we lost the battle. We'd be happy with the results. It's a very direct and aggressive knowledge seeking behavior, and sometimes the more sensitive folks cannot stand it. Sometimes if I have to change my behavior, and spend time thinking about how not to offend the person I'm debating an idea with, then I often lose interest all together. It's too much work. But it can be done if the person is important enough. The last thing I want to do is hurt someone.

[Little Linguist]

I hope my answers are accurate enough, because this is not something I'm very conscious about doing, but I know that I do.

I rarely just let something pass unchallenged unless I've already thought about it and think it makes complete sense. I will only ignore you if I don't care about you, so if I like you, then the challenge is a good sign. And one thing I've noticed a lot is that I think I'm being objective, while the other person takes it as a personal attack. In my own eyes, I'm just doing what is necessary for clarity. There's probably certain things you could say to get them to shut up, and certain things you could say that would cause them to push harder.

Why are you sharing the ideas in the first place? Usually when I do I expect a challenge, and I admit, I'm quite turned on by a challenge. My way of thinking has always been to battle ideas until there is a winner and a loser, at which point the loser adopts what he has learned. Me, and someone who thinks like me, wouldn't be affected emotionally by it, even if we lost the battle. We'd be happy with the results. It's a very direct and aggressive knowledge seeking behavior, and sometimes the more sensitive folks cannot stand it.

Yeah, I would pretty much agree with this. (Sorry, I know I'm not an NT, but seeing as an NF wrote the first post, I thought it would be useful to see that not only NTs think like this).

[BlackOp]

I approach it more like the "Pinball Wizard"...play by sense of smell.

[Anja]

I appreciate the word "play" being used, BlackOp, and I agree with your method. Very En of you.

Sometimes people who have little to offer or are having difficulties dealing with troubling feelings (And we all know who those guys are. Heh.) exercise their wits for a variety of reasons other than what they appear at a surface reading.

As INFPs, Chat, we run into trouble trying to figure out people's sincerity and we have that danged compulsion to keep explaining ourselves ad infinitum.

Here's what works for me:

I try not to speak until I have confidence in my answer. Then, if challenged, I have three choices. I can agree, disagree or put it on the back burner for future reference. Arguing or explaining, from my perspective, only goads on further irritating behavior. Because it isn't a conversation; it's a game. One that you are not supposed to win.

A perusal of posters' habits over a period of time separates the conversationalists from the trolls.

There is a compulsion in one's youth, as we try to figure out what we really are and what we believe in, to bounce it off of others. A normal process.

We have some information and, darn it, we want to let others know that we are becoming more sure of ourselves.

Where we back ourselves into corners is our stubborn-minded insistence (and assumption) that we are correct. And taking even another step closer to the social abyss we attempt to convince others of such. In an attempt to win respect and admiration we end up alienating the very possibility with tantrums, name-calling, arrogance, so forth. Our needs are being thwarted, for goodness sake.


What does it take on both sides' part? Some insight is good. Some patience and acceptance of others' need for respect and admiration help. A good group grope now and then?

All a part of the maturing process, and yes, it's an irritating conversation stopper.

Now. Don't anyone argue with me about that because I secretly know I'm right and you're wrong!

PS. It also doesn't hurt to remember that we really don't know many of our conversationalists and there's a good chance that some of us may be struggling with personalty/thought disorders which mar their ability to have friendly encounters with others. "More to be pitied than censured." I believe the phrase is.

[BlackOp]

I appreciate the word "play" being used, BlackOp, and I agree with your method. Very En of you.



I was referring to instinct rather than chessmanship..."play" just happens to be part of the lyrics. Personally, small talk makes me quite uncomfortable......like I'm being forced to lie. There is a "used car salesman" quality to the whole social process. Some require this affirmation ritual.....provides acknowledgment and habitual comfort to those who need it. I actually envy people who can do it with sincerity...after 45 seconds my mind if off to something else. It doesnt mean I dont care, I can provide real comfort when the situation is deserving.

[Tallulah]

I agree with booya. If someone presents an idea, I interact with the idea and try to make it the best version of what it is. Or if it's a non-workable or fallacy-laden concept, I try to point out the holes, because I'd want someone to do that for me. I always have a fear that there's a side I haven't thought about yet. I don't see it as person = idea. If you're married to your argument and don't want anyone poking at it or seeing if it holds water, you shouldn't present it to NTs. I've had a couple run-ins on this board with folks who felt attacked by me, when I felt like I was merely challenging an idea they'd presented as fact. I had absolutely no personal ill-will towards either of them. The cases I'm thinking of were NFs, but I wouldn't say it's an across-the-board NF thing by any means.

NTs don't "go after" a certain type's ideas over another. But sometimes people don't realize how personally attached to their own ideas they are (or perhaps there's some insecurity at work), and they view the NT scrutiny as a personal attack. NTs just don't think that way, usually. Unless the person in question is an arrogant a-hole and an NT wants to deflate him.

[Edahn]

I give them an exam once every two weeks called "What Edahn Thinks."

[untypable]

I appreciate anyone's ideas, the more off the wall the better. I ask questions to learn about thee secrets of their mind and the way they think, whether than trying to shoot their ideas down. Some of the most insane ideas work in history even though they may seem impossible and illogical at first. (like launching rocket to the moon or the steam ship).

[Ilah]

I think talking about the various merits of an idea, the good points and bad, is an INTJ's/INTP's idea of an enjoyable conversation.

I know I love looking at things in depth and analyzing things, breaking apart arguements, looking at things from all sides, etc. This includes looking at the good and bad points, the strenghts and weaknesses.

I think that when presented with an argument or opinion that seems one sided the is a natural tendancy to want to dig deeper and find the opposing side.

To be honest when I do an on-line post I welcome people with differing opinions. Not people who will say things like "that's really stupid" or "what the **** were you thinking when your wrote this" but people who have different ideas and present them respectfully.

The whole dialog, or lack of dialog, where one person says something and everyone says things like "I agree" and "good post" gets boring because there is no discussion.

I think it can sometimes make a difference in how you present your ideas. If you present an idea tenatively, "I am thinking about buying X, I am thinking of doing X" NTs tend to interpret that as "I am unsure, help me decide if I am making the right choice." F types probably interpet this as a person wanting reassurance they are making the right choice. If you come out with more self confidence and self assurance, "I am doing this." "I am buying this." then there is less chance it will be a topic of discusion.

[SolitaryWalker]

(I'm trying to figure out if this is my NF-hypersensitive perception or not......)

Is it common for you guys to test everyone's ideas constantly? Do you do it more with non-NTs or do NTs get more of a pass? Is it a compliment? Is it an insult? Is it neutral? Do you ever get to a point with a person that you accept their ideas & insights without so much battle, scrutiny, skepticism?

I just feel like I'm constantly proving myself with some of the NTs in my life, am I oversensitive? Part of me is defensive about it, where I expect less of a battle...based on my history with the particular person, does my history of giving good insight, or presenting an interesting idea, or being more perceptive, not get factored into the present? Is it a jumbled mess, where I'm unaware of ideas I've had that have been rejected by the NT, so I'm put in this strange camp that some percentage of my ideas that are good determine my standing with these individual NT persons?


NTs critically analyze ideas that they take an interest in to the end of arriving at a better understanding.

It is a compliment because it shows that they are interested in your thoughts. Most people are deemed not worthy of their attention.

[chatoyer]

...where it sounds like you are expressing discontent that your past intelligence is not getting factored into your current relationship with this person and that you feel on some level this is unfair...

I think this is the frustration, and I'm not sure it's warranted. I love the way NTs think, I try to learn, and bounce off ideas with them as much as possible. It's when I get a compliment from an NT friend that seems like "wow, that was great thinking", as if it were a surprise, when I thought I had already earned their respect in my way of thinking, even if it's different from them at points.

I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, as NTs tend to be sparing in compliments, & I'm not saying that I need all this coddling and reassurance when I'm discussing something.........it's that I compare it with closer NTs in my life, like my husband & other closer friends, who will remind me that I don't need to do all those disclaimers, or I don't need to be defensive, I can short-cut a discussion with them, because they respect me (and how I think and make decisions about an issue) and they already have a backstory on how I got to a certain conclusion. There's more short-cutting, and less of this competitive sort of thing where I'm proving myself.

[runvardh]

NTs critically analyze ideas that they take an interest in to the end of arriving at a better understanding.

It is a compliment because it shows that they are interested in your thoughts. Most people are deemed not worthy of their attention.

Which is why when a friend of me further questioned me on the implications of a story setting I was working on I felt better about it rather than looked at like an idiot. The setting was a Jovian moon like system where several of the moons had relatively Earth-like biospheres. He wanted to get a sense of what the idea could be used for. I think he's an INTJ...

[celesul]

I like playing with the ideas. Generally, if a person has an interesting idea, I want to analyze it and toys with it, and while that may expose a few holes, it is helpful to be able to fix it I think. It's a fun game for me ^.^

Sadly, people don't always want to play the idea game, even if I'm sacrificing some of my own ideas for playing... It isn't always best for the ego after all, so I suppose I understand. Still, I have only a few people who will play, so they tend to become highly valued friends.

[Anja]

Thanks for that, celesul. When I see people conversing and citing sources for their ideas, as an INFP, I immediately think that I won't be able to offer anything with credibility to the conversation because facts are expected.

My problem? A disorganized filing system somewhere in my brain. The stuff is there. Now where did I put it?

So my reaction is to speak from experience of encounters with others, to speak from my feelings and my thoughts. These are valid to me and can be useful to others also.

And because I have little motivation to try to force others to change their ideas or behavior it all comes out to a rationalizer as inconsequential.

I suppose, as an INFP, my motivation leans more toward support and encouragement in what others choose for themselves.

[animenagai]

as an ENFP with a developed T side, i know where both parties are coming from. chatoyer seems like to be your standard F, misunderstanding some of the T characteristics. T's tackles the task, not the person. they believe that logic is what needs to shine through. it's nothing personal at all. i laughed a bit when chatoyer talked about compliments. ENFP's love compliments, we fish for them sometimes. it's just this need of ours to stay true to ourselves that stop us from being complete attention whores.

[Anja]

anime - you're so cute today!

[IlyaK1986]

I'd tell them to put a working model of said idea, and have them see if it works.

[animenagai]

anime - you're so cute today!

awww... thanks :wubbie:. see, that was i compliment. i loved that. :D