I throw down the gauntlet to the "real" geeks.

[Xander]

So all you Linux and BSD fans... this may ruffle feathers.

I've tried more flavours of Linux than I have skittles. Each seems to come polished or not in it's own little idiosyncratic world of techno babble. Each finds some drivers and not others and each seemingly insists on standing out from the crowd somehow.

Now I'm not exactly the worlds worst with technology so with hordes of people raving about the qualities of Linux and BSD over windows I thought I'd give it a try (again, for those who read my blog).

The crux of this meander in to my experiments is this, how the freaking quango did anyone ever quantify Linux or BSD as user friendly or indeed an OS than anyone other than a Linux/BSD developer should approach?

I am considering that I may have been windows spoiled but when that is the competition where two click in rapid succession will get you whatever you want (as compared to compiling code and actual text entry) what chance has this plucky little OS got?

In my research I did find that Mac's use an OS with similar roots to Linux. Now isn't that OS supposed to be easier than windows? So how in this quite bleaky, grey and concreted corner of earth did they get that when the rest are so dire in their GUI?

It's not just myself with this approach either, I work with those less computer literate than myself and all of them complain about things being hidden by the computer, how ream after ream of submenu and tick boxes mires them in useless options whilst carefully obfuscating the option wanted. If they saw Linux their brains would melt into goo. Steam would rise from their ears and their eyes would catch fire. Just installing it fills me with the kind of fear I hadn't felt since I'd first approached a PC.. Why can't it use the kind of drive labelling people recognise? Why won't it tell you what's going on or if you're about to screw windows up so far it can't tell if Bill Gates is a good man or a garden implement?

Anyhow, there's a poll with this minor tirade. Thought I'd open some flood gates to find out if Linux really should be kept to the programmers or if there's hope for those of us who consider it extreme to have to program an OS to do something.

yum update, clear all previous options selected and pick from list.

[spirilis]

Having used Linux for the past 12 years in one capacity or another, I will say that UNIX-based O/S's (excepting MacOS X in this statement) are more for "power users" than anything and when introducing them to a non-poweruser/non-programmer type of computer user, one should not expect anything but be happy if they like it.

MacOS X is more my idea of an "O/S to end all O/S's" for desktop users and with what little experience I've had with it I haven't felt like it's stifled me in any way, but again I really don't have much experience with it.

Windows is what it is. I don't use it because it's a "nice user interface", I use it because a lot of applications only work on it. Frankly I prefer my GNOME desktop environment in Ubuntu Linux with multiple virtual desktops and programmed hotkey sequences (using an app called 'keylaunch' for some of them).

I rock the best of both worlds, though -- Linux runs on the baremetal hardware, and Windows XP runs inside a VMware Virtual Machine, so I can use Windows apps when needed.

[Xander]

Having used Linux for the past 12 years in one capacity or another, I will say that UNIX-based O/S's (excepting MacOS X in this statement) are more for "power users" than anything and when introducing them to a non-poweruser/non-programmer type of computer user, one should not expect anything but be happy if they like it.

MacOS X is more my idea of an "O/S to end all O/S's" for desktop users and with what little experience I've had with it I haven't felt like it's stifled me in any way, but again I really don't have much experience with it.

Windows is what it is. I don't use it because it's a "nice user interface", I use it because a lot of applications only work on it. Frankly I prefer my GNOME desktop environment in Ubuntu Linux with multiple virtual desktops and programmed hotkey sequences (using an app called 'keylaunch' for some of them).

I rock the best of both worlds, though -- Linux runs on the baremetal hardware, and Windows XP runs inside a VMware Virtual Machine, so I can use Windows apps when needed.
That's what I mean though. I'm apt at configuring, bug hunting and such in windows but Linuz just blows me out of the water. There's no real attempt at bridging the whole human-computer gap from what I've seen (though I've just read an article on Mndriva which sounds promising).

Btw, do you have the obligatory beard? ;)

[ygolo]

I've used both for years. My home system is now exclusively XP. But when I get enough cash that I consider discressionary, not earmarked for other things, my next will likely be some Linux variant. I may be dating myself, but the last time I used linux for my home system was a Mandrake install dual-booting with Windows 98. Before that I used slackware, and Windows 95.

I kind-of agree with you. I have lost my patience with sys-admin activities. I was never very good, I just followed directions and they generally worked. But when they don't work, I am not really sure how to debug (other than trying various versions of modules, and searching for FAQs, manuals and User Guides).

For school, I had to deal with Ubuntu in two different occasions.

Once was to attempt to set-up an Ubuntu Virtual Machine on my laptop, and I couldn't figure how to give the virtual machine acess to the network through my firewall. Time was an issue, so I had to gain access to the code for the class in a different way.

The second-time was when I was trying to get the CUDA SDK to run on Ubuntu runing on a project partner's Shuttle PC with an nVidia 8600 GTS card. Beyond the very simple examples in the SDK, I kept getting crashes--suspect something about configuring video memory. After fooling with the drivers (both CUDA versions and 8600 driver versions) for a while, I got into a state where the card was only being recognized a generic, and not even as an nVidia card!! Anyway, we were running out of time, and we could access to CUDA runs in a different way.

[spirilis]

That's what I mean though. I'm apt at configuring, bug hunting and such in windows but Linuz just blows me out of the water. There's no real attempt at bridging the whole human-computer gap from what I've seen (though I've just read an article on Mndriva which sounds promising).

Btw, do you have the obligatory beard? ;)

Yeah. I think "programmer power-user" is a better description here. Linux aims to be usable for those who need to use it. Windows aims to bridge the human-computer gap. I don't really see that as Linux's ultimate goal; I see Linux's goal as attempting to get the *most* out of computer hardware, to enable you to do the most possible. Part of that involves giving you the maximum breadth of tools to make use of the computer, and that's where Open Source Software shines (so many free programming languages and frameworks to use).

Whenever I hear about embedded Linux devices like cellphones or simplistic GUI-driven stuff like the eeePC I nod--THAT is more its fancy. Linux should be a state-of-the-art core underneath an otherwise polished and well-engineered interface. MacOS X reminds me of this; a UNIX core with something totally unrelated sitting on top.

I'm a sysadmin so UNIX-based O/S's give me the maximum power for doing what I do--I can write quick scripts to pull off crazy shit, test stuff, use OpenSSH's auto authentication system seamlessly with my scripts, set up automated port forwards to get around odd network/VPN setups, etc. which I can't do (or can't do EASILY, to be certain) in Windows.

Oh and yeah, I sure do have the obligatory beard. My NFP lady friends prefer it too ;)

[Xander]

I've used both for years. My home system is now exclusively XP. But when I get enough cash that I consider discressionary, not earmarked for other things, my next will likely be some Linux variant. I may be dating myself, but the last time I used linux for my home system was a Mandrake install dual-booting with Windows 98. Before that I used slackware, and Windows 95.

I kind-of agree with you. I have lost my patience with sys-admin activities. I was never very good, I just followed directions and they generally worked. But when they don't work, I am not really sure how to debug (other than trying various versions of modules, and searching for FAQs, manuals and User Guides).

For school, I had to deal with Ubuntu in two different occasions.

Once was to attempt to set-up an Ubuntu Virtual Machine on my laptop, and I couldn't figure how to give the virtual machine acess to the network through my firewall. Time was an issue, so I had to gain access to the code for the class in a different way.

The second-time was when I was trying to get the CUDA SDK to run on Ubuntu runing on a project partner's Shuttle PC with an nVidia 8600 GTS card. Beyond the very simple examples in the SDK, I kept getting crashes--suspect something about configuring video memory. After fooling with the drivers (both CUDA versions and 8600 driver versions) for a while, I got into a state where the card was only being recognized a generic, and not even as an nVidia card!! Anyway, we were running out of time, and we could access to CUDA runs in a different way.
Oh the whole hardware does my sweede! I had a laptop (fairly recent but not cutting edge by a long chalk) and of all the things to not have a driver for the network card has to be the worst. That and I've yet to see Linux drive WiFi from the box. It's just a constant struggle.

I recall one guy saying that when he bought a new Mac he'd think "Wow, I can't wait to set this up and see what's new" as opposed to a Windows PC where it was more like "I'll get this set up and see what I have to fix". Myself, I find Linux to be in the latter camp.

Having said all of this though, I do take my hat off to those guys. It's not like they're earning millions from it.... perhaps that's where they're going wrong but still for free software it's not that bad.

[spirilis]

Oh the whole hardware does my sweede! I had a laptop (fairly recent but not cutting edge by a long chalk) and of all the things to not have a driver for the network card has to be the worst. That and I've yet to see Linux drive WiFi from the box. It's just a constant struggle.

I recall one guy saying that when he bought a new Mac he'd think "Wow, I can't wait to set this up and see what's new" as opposed to a Windows PC where it was more like "I'll get this set up and see what I have to fix". Myself, I find Linux to be in the latter camp.

Having said all of this though, I do take my hat off to those guys. It's not like they're earning millions from it.... perhaps that's where they're going wrong but still for free software it's not that bad.

It is. Linux is always a small project to get going. But I keep reminding myself it's free, and I bear some responsibility for taking up the slack.

[Xander]

It is. Linux is always a small project to get going. But I keep reminding myself it's free, and I bear some responsibility for taking up the slack.
I guess if I hadn't gone out and bought Windows so it'd either be get it working or go spend money then I'd be more supportive but I have free choice at present between XP, XP64, Visa 64 or seven thousand shades of Linux. With my desktop it's XP64 no question but for the laptop I have more play, I don't need Direct X for example... I'm still however finding Vista a difficult one to turn down. I just wanted a cleaner running OS and as I only use it for internet and email really then Linux should have been a doddle... not so it appears.

I may try this new Mandriva 2008.1 or that PC-Linux OS.... then again I did tell my friend to hit me rather hard if I mentioned trying Linux again... :thinking:

[spirilis]

I guess if I hadn't gone out and bought Windows so it'd either be get it working or go spend money then I'd be more supportive but I have free choice at present between XP, XP64, Visa 64 or seven thousand shades of Linux. With my desktop it's XP64 no question but for the laptop I have more play, I don't need Direct X for example... I'm still however finding Vista a difficult one to turn down. I just wanted a cleaner running OS and as I only use it for internet and email really then Linux should have been a doddle... not so it appears.

I may try this new Mandriva 2008.1 or that PC-Linux OS.... then again I did tell my friend to hit me rather hard if I mentioned trying Linux again... :thinking:

Yea this one guy at the local Linux users group raves about PCLinuxOS... never tried it myself. The new Ubuntu is okay but it's ticked me off for more than 1 reason (including the fact that my USB ports aren't working... I'm pretty sly with troubleshooting Linux but this has so far evaded me)

[Xander]

Yea this one guy at the local Linux users group raves about PCLinuxOS... never tried it myself. The new Ubuntu is okay but it's ticked me off for more than 1 reason (including the fact that my USB ports aren't working... I'm pretty sly with troubleshooting Linux but this has so far evaded me)
Is there a secret? Is there a shortcut or is the twelve year route a necessity?

;)

[spirilis]

Is there a secret? Is there a shortcut or is the twelve year route a necessity?

;)

It's 12 years of practice (and seeing Linux through all kinds of driver/obscure hardware/library issues/app developers at work doing crazy shit/watching Linux crash & burn under heavy load) , yeah. ;)

A couple hints though:
1. Working knowledge of the C programming language (Standard C, not C++ or C# or Java or anything higher-level like that; Standard C where you have to deal with pointers and no object-orientation). This gives you access to the "language" that all the intimate details of Linux's core speaks. Oh, it also helps to have knowledge of the BSD Sockets interface, which all network-aware apps use to initiate/manage any communication involving networks.
2. Good knowledge of shell scripting
3. Master of the shell prompt, in general.

I don't think it's possible for a good Linux technician to troubleshoot a system without busting out a shell prompt.

[Little Linguist]

I have a mac. I guess that means I'm a total loser as that was not even on the list.

[sassafrassquatch]

Windows XP power user. I know how to write basic HTML, Vista is an abortion, Windows 7 will be as crappy as Vista and Linux is an attempt to reinvent the wheel by autistic marxists (real men use Unix),

[spirilis]

Linux is an attempt to reinvent the wheel by autistic marxists (real men use Unix),

:rofl1: that's the best thing I've read all day.

[Athenian200]

I use Linux on some of my computers, and Windows on others.

I like configuring Linux and figuring out all the different things you have to do to make it work, for some reason. I'm not a programmer, but I do know how to edit configuration files, have a knowledge of how Linux is organized, how to apply patches, and even fix syntax errors or change pathnames in .h and .cpp files. I'm not sure, but I think I'm about as good with computers on the software side as you can get without actually programming them or specializing in any one thing. I can even use things like "grep," to some extent.

I'm not quite a real geek, but I'm almost there. ;)

[Xander]

I have a mac. I guess that means I'm a total loser as that was not even on the list.
You are evil it's true but you can post yourself under the Linux lot for this purpose. It's all the same really

(waits for distant explosion.....)
Windows XP power user. I know how to write basic HTML, Vista is an abortion, Windows 7 will be as crappy as Vista and Linux is an attempt to reinvent the wheel by autistic marxists (real men use Unix),
Vista is actually a good idea or two... it's just propogated with lots of terrible ideas and really bad final install management!

If you took the core mechanics of Vista without any of the "hey we can do this" I think it'd make a first step to a really good OS. The problem is the whole closed source. M$ finds you "customising" too much, you know like making it work well and stuff, and they'll sue. Can't have people prooving it can be done or worse still having a look at the direct X stuff so linux can have that too!!! :eek:

I do agree though, Linux has that Russian kind of cold war atmosphere to it... ie the technology is good but the interface sucks!

[Xander]

It's 12 years of practice (and seeing Linux through all kinds of driver/obscure hardware/library issues/app developers at work doing crazy shit/watching Linux crash & burn under heavy load) , yeah. ;)

A couple hints though:
1. Working knowledge of the C programming language (Standard C, not C++ or C# or Java or anything higher-level like that; Standard C where you have to deal with pointers and no object-orientation). This gives you access to the "language" that all the intimate details of Linux's core speaks. Oh, it also helps to have knowledge of the BSD Sockets interface, which all network-aware apps use to initiate/manage any communication involving networks.
2. Good knowledge of shell scripting
3. Master of the shell prompt, in general.

I don't think it's possible for a good Linux technician to troubleshoot a system without busting out a shell prompt.
That's the problem then. I'm on lowly Visual Basic and such. I expect words that mean something... totally weird like that ;)

The scripting thing is what throws me everytime. Is it just me or are they just avoiding the word programming incase it scares people off?

[Xander]

I use Linux on some of my computers, and Windows on others.

I like configuring Linux and figuring out all the different things you have to do to make it work, for some reason. I'm not a programmer, but I do know how to edit configuration files, have a knowledge of how Linux is organized, how to apply patches, and even fix syntax errors or change pathnames in .h and .cpp files. I'm not sure, but I think I'm about as good with computers on the software side as you can get without actually programming them or specializing in any one thing.

And the beard?

How's that coming along?

[Athenian200]

And the beard?

How's that coming along?

If it's any consolation, I'm not as into Linux now that I know how most of it works and have done most of the things I wanted to know I could do in it... and now mostly use Windows again, simply for the applications available. I just happen to use it still.

[sassafrassquatch]

Vista is actually a good idea or two... it's just propogated with lots of terrible ideas and really bad final install management!

If you took the core mechanics of Vista without any of the "hey we can do this" I think it'd make a first step to a really good OS. The problem is the whole closed source. M$ finds you "customising" too much, you know like making it work well and stuff, and they'll sue. Can't have people prooving it can be done or worse still having a look at the direct X stuff so linux can have that too!!! :eek:

Vista seems to be perfectly fine under the hood I just hate what MS has done to the interface. I don't like having it rendered by the GPU, Windows Classic in Vista looks like ass, the menu bar belongs above the tool bar and the tool bar is now static and unchangeable. The Control Panel is completely disorganized and requires more clicks to do things than in XP. Aero looks like foggy plastic rather than glass and Segoe UI is illegible to my eyes, Tahoma or MS Sans Serif is ideal. The new icons are very pretty though.

I do agree though, Linux has that Russian kind of cold war atmosphere to it... ie the technology is good but the interface sucks!

I kind of like the way KDE, Gnome, X11 and the other window managers look, my beef is more with the silly Open Source ideology and it's irrational hatred of commercial software. The best open source application available is Firefox and its code base is derived from Netscape which was commercially developed. I pirate Windows, MS Office and Photoshop so I could give a shit if my programs are "free as in speech."

[Xander]

If it's any consolation, I'm not as into Linux now that I know how most of it works and have done most of the things I wanted to know I could do in it... and now mostly use Windows again, simply for the applications available. I just happen to use it still.
Reducing down to a nice tache are we ;)
Vista seems to be perfectly fine under the hood I just hate what MS has done to the interface. I don't like having it rendered by the GPU, Windows Classic in Vista looks like ass, the menu bar belongs above the tool bar and the tool bar is now static and unchangeable. The Control Panel is completely disorganized and requires more clicks to do things than in XP. Aero looks like foggy plastic rather than glass and Segoe UI is illegible to my eyes, Tahoma or MS Sans Serif is ideal. The new icons are very pretty though.
Should you ever get stuck with it, consult the wizard that runs tweakguides. His guide should be able to lead you through some registry fixes if it's too bad as is.

I guess that's the Linux route coming in. Mind you least with Windows it's usually in the vein of making it look nice or work better rather than foundation stuff like network cards....
I kind of like the way KDE, Gnome, X11 and the other window managers look, my beef is more with the silly Open Source ideology and it's irrational hatred of commercial software. The best open source application available is Firefox and its code base is derived from Netscape which was commercially developed. I pirate Windows, MS Office and Photoshop so I could give a shit if my programs are "free as in speech."
Nooooooooo don't think like that!! I like the whole KDE environment and it's that son of a two headed muppet that keeps tempting me back to try again and again to get it to work!!! Don't do it!!! The dark side it is!!!

[Either that or grab a C book with it ;)]

[sassafrassquatch]

Should you ever get stuck with it, consult the wizard that runs tweakguides. His guide should be able to lead you through some registry fixes if it's too bad as is.

I actually bought Vista a few months ago. I liked it at first but after a while it started grating on me. I tried messing with everything but I still hated it. Most of the things I have a problem with, like the organization of the control panel, are unchangeable. I also had a problem with my video card, it's a Radeon 9700 Pro which won't run if I use drivers newer than Catalyst 4.11. The Vista drivers are obviously newer so I bought a Radeon X1650 Pro AGP but when I try to play a game my computer crashes hard and reboots. I don't know if it's a defective card or what, though if it were defective I would expect it to not work at all.

XP 4 Life *throws gang signs*

[Xander]

I actually bought Vista a few months ago. I liked it at first but after a while it started grating on me. I tried messing with everything but I still hated it. Most of the things I have a problem with, like the organization of the control panel, are unchangeable.

XP 4 Life *throws gang signs*
64 or 32? I bet you're on 32bit... so old school. You'd best get some guys called something "dog" in that gang :rolleyes:



;)


64bit 4 eva!!!


That reminds me... 64 bit has been around for ages..... where the hell is 128bit or 256bit???

[spirilis]

64bit 4 eva!!!


That reminds me... 64 bit has been around for ages..... where the hell is 128bit or 256bit???

It's in your butt!

Nah I'm pretty sure we'll be OK with 64-bit for a long, long time.

I'm personally thankful that AMD cooked up a reasonably cool 64-bit implementation (which Intel, of course, copied as EM64t since they weren't about to be shut out of the game...) and managed to toss in a marginal performance increase alongside it (in the form of larger and more plentiful registers).

Intel & HP's original idea, IA64 (Intel Itanium), SUCKED hard donkey bytes. Emphasis on the "SUCKED", "HARD", "DONKEY" and "BYTES." We still have three Dell PowerEdge 3250 Itanium boxes down at my workplace's datacenter and I feel like going all Office Space on them every time I see them. Thank god they're sitting on the floor unpowered.

[millerm277]

First, insight into me: I do some programming (I know VB6/VB.NET, Java, and C/C++.), and I've used all of the operating systems mentioned except OSX.

Linux (well, Ubuntu, SUSE and the like), takes a bit of getting used to how things work (For example: Packages/installing things, and the file system), however, most tasks aren't any more difficult than in Windows or the like. The issue comes when you get into some of the issues that require Terminal (like some free apps and such), then things get confusing, although if you follow directions it's not hard, just "scary".

Vista: Like XP, but shinier....and with a couple annoying problems, like the slowest file transfers I've seen, and some driver issues. Also, moving everything in the control panel around for no reason is annoying, as is having to go manually enable the real Admin account.

64-Bit: XP-64 is horrible, Vista-64, in the short time I used it, seemed fine. Support for it is still lacking though, and until it starts actually coming installed on machines, that won't change.

[Xander]

It's in your butt!

Nah I'm pretty sure we'll be OK with 64-bit for a long, long time.

I'm personally thankful that AMD cooked up a reasonably cool 64-bit implementation (which Intel, of course, copied as EM64t since they weren't about to be shut out of the game...) and managed to toss in a marginal performance increase alongside it (in the form of larger and more plentiful registers).
That's the annoying thing in my book... 64bit... supposed to be a large improvement. The only large improvement I've noticed is I can have more than 4Gb of memory plugged in and showing.... however since nothing uses that much on home computing (bar a few programs) what's the point?
Intel & HP's original idea, IA64 (Intel Itanium), SUCKED hard donkey bytes. Emphasis on the "SUCKED", "HARD", "DONKEY" and "BYTES."
That's okay.... just don't crunch them. Takes your teef out!!
We still have three Dell PowerEdge 3250 Itanium boxes down at my workplace's datacenter and I feel like going all Office Space on them every time I see them. Thank god they're sitting on the floor unpowered.
Ah the server side is something I've yet to sharpen my teeth on much. Maybe soon though... small crashes to big BOOMS!!!

:D They did call me Sirus for a while at work..
First, insight into me: I do some programming (I know VB6/VB.NET, Java, and C/C++.), and I've used all of the operating systems mentioned except OSX.

Linux (well, Ubuntu, SUSE and the like), takes a bit of getting used to how things work (For example: Packages/installing things, and the file system), however, most tasks aren't any more difficult than in Windows or the like. The issue comes when you get into some of the issues that require Terminal (like some free apps and such), then things get confusing, although if you follow directions it's not hard, just "scary".
True... tried to install flash player like a million times.... used the terminal...followed the instructions... nadda.

That's the crux of my issue with Linux... too many things are processed without adequate feedback.
Vista: Like XP, but shinier....and with a couple annoying problems, like the slowest file transfers I've seen, and some driver issues. Also, moving everything in the control panel around for no reason is annoying, as is having to go manually enable the real Admin account.
That's the most useful trick I ever picked up for Vista... they totally frown on how it undermines their security scheme but I am always of the opinion that security on my PC should be at my own damn option.

Personally I consider Vista to be enthusiasts software. You have to have the patience and some considerable knowledge to make it comfy as an OS... either that or not knowing the difference...
64-Bit: XP-64 is horrible, Vista-64, in the short time I used it, seemed fine. Support for it is still lacking though, and until it starts actually coming installed on machines, that won't change.
*Presses button marked "Nuclear attack" repeatedly....*

*...nothing happens*

*Camera switch to sticker saying "Powered by Vista"*


Well I accept that you have the right to your opinion about XP64.. you are entitled to have a different opinion to the facts and I shall restrain myself from becoming all high and mighty and correcting you...


You're just wrong.





;)
(Oh and as a note, the laptop I bought in the states comes preinstalled with Vista x64 Home Premium... perhaps the future is coming???



about frickin time!!!!)

[spirilis]

That's the annoying thing in my book... 64bit... supposed to be a large improvement. The only large improvement I've noticed is I can have more than 4Gb of memory plugged in and showing.... however since nothing uses that much on home computing (bar a few programs) what's the point?


64-bit is a little ahead of its time on the desktop right now but with a lot of folks buying desktops with 4GB RAM nowadays, that "time" is coming very soon. Once apps start using more than 4GB RAM, and folks buy 8+GB footprints, 64-bit will show its worth.

On the server-side, 64-bit is a freakin' godsend. I can't tell you how many apps we have at work which mysteriously stopped working, only to find out after some quick troubleshooting that the apps ran afoul of the 3GB per-process address space limit. Answer? Upgrade to 64-bit systems/OS.

I'm happy Linux got on the x86_64 64-bit bandwagon very early on, because it's given them more time to iron out some of the compatibility problems with having 32-bit and 64-bit apps coexist. Still not perfect, but recent versions of Linux make it mostly seamless.

[Xander]

64-bit is a little ahead of its time on the desktop right now but with a lot of folks buying desktops with 4GB RAM nowadays, that "time" is coming very soon. Once apps start using more than 4GB RAM, and folks buy 8+GB footprints, 64-bit will show its worth.

On the server-side, 64-bit is a freakin' godsend. I can't tell you how many apps we have at work which mysteriously stopped working, only to find out after some quick troubleshooting that the apps ran afoul of the 3GB per-process address space limit. Answer? Upgrade to 64-bit systems/OS.

I'm happy Linux got on the x86_64 64-bit bandwagon very early on, because it's given them more time to iron out some of the compatibility problems with having 32-bit and 64-bit apps coexist. Still not perfect, but recent versions of Linux make it mostly seamless.
Well oddly enough I find XP64 better not only because it is slightly quicker (my 3DMark rises slightly under XP64) but also because half of the programs which usually find their way onto my system and slow the computer down, don't work on XP64 :D

That was the idea with Linux actually. To have a computer pretty much naked of rubbish just for reliable email and internet with none of the slow downs.

Oh and as a side point I see that on the Windows 7 blog there's a few people asking for options in Windows 7 so it doesn't have to be bloatware... that I'd love to see happen.

[spirilis]

Well oddly enough I find XP64 better not only because it is slightly quicker (my 3DMark rises slightly under XP64) but also because half of the programs which usually find their way onto my system and slow the computer down, don't work on XP64 :D

That was the idea with Linux actually. To have a computer pretty much naked of rubbish just for reliable email and internet with none of the slow downs.

Oh and as a side point I see that on the Windows 7 blog there's a few people asking for options in Windows 7 so it doesn't have to be bloatware... that I'd love to see happen.

haha, nice ;)

Speaking of Linux and "lack of Windows", I enjoyed this article that's made its way through the geek sites yesterday-- PC World - Vendors Rally While Windows Sleeps (http://www.pcworld.com/article/149896/vendors_rally_while_windows_sleeps.html)

The Latitude On feature uses a low-power Intel ARM processor, flash storage and Linux (SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10) separate from the laptop's main CPU, hard drive and Windows operating system

Very interesting, this is also a tribute to the miniaturization going on with a lot of the "embedded" market nowadays--they were able to stuff an ARM proc and flash drive, along with the integration electronics, into a laptop alongside the host x86 CPU and hardware.

[Xander]

^^ Oddly Spirillis the more people move away from Microsoft and the more Microsoft start to listen, the more I like them...

I think I'll be one of the old bastion in the end. Still using windows when everyone else has gone over to linux.

[millerm277]

True... tried to install flash player like a million times.... used the terminal...followed the instructions... nadda.

What Linux Distro were you using? (OS). Although it's not officially supported, and has recieved some criticism, Automatix/Ultamatix can make installing all the codecs/plugins you need much easier.

That's the most useful trick I ever picked up for Vista... they totally frown on how it undermines their security scheme but I am always of the opinion that security on my PC should be at my own damn option.

Yup, I agree, considering my track record of zero malicious software, ever, I'm not too concerned about it.

Personally I consider Vista to be enthusiasts software. You have to have the patience and some considerable knowledge to make it comfy as an OS... either that or not knowing the difference...

Yeah, I ripped everything out of it I don't want, and made an unattended boot disk. If I want to install it, I just pop it in, select the partition, and come back in 45 minutes to it fully loaded. Next task is to intergrate some applications into the install.

Well I accept that you have the right to your opinion about XP64.. you are entitled to have a different opinion to the facts and I shall restrain myself from becoming all high and mighty and correcting you...

I haven't used it since it was first released. From the way you're sounding, I think I'll go give it a try again.

[Xander]

What Linux Distro were you using? (OS). Although it's not officially supported, and has recieved some criticism, Automatix/Ultamatix can make installing all the codecs/plugins you need much easier.
I believe that particular install was Xandros. All instances of Linux are currently removed however. I'm thinking that next time I'll try the virtual machine route and quit stuffing up windows.
Yup, I agree, considering my track record of zero malicious software, ever, I'm not too concerned about it.
Me neither.

Mind you I don't by Norton.

;)
Yeah, I ripped everything out of it I don't want, and made an unattended boot disk. If I want to install it, I just pop it in, select the partition, and come back in 45 minutes to it fully loaded. Next task is to intergrate some applications into the install.
I do believe I may have found someone who reinstalls more often than I do....

I'll have to write this down so people quit teasing me!!

Btw, how come you install so many times to make such things worthwhile?
I haven't used it since it was first released. From the way you're sounding, I think I'll go give it a try again.
:nice: I prefer it to 32bit. Somehow it seems cleaner. Oh and I think it's up to SP2 now.... it runs the same schedule as Server 2003... 64bit explorer still doesn't seem to run windows update though :doh:

[spirilis]

^^ Oddly Spirillis the more people move away from Microsoft and the more Microsoft start to listen, the more I like them...

I think I'll be one of the old bastion in the end. Still using windows when everyone else has gone over to linux.

The competition, at least, has been SORELY needed for over a decade. The free/open source software paradigm was exactly what we needed to rustle Microsoft's feathers, as Microsoft itself has proven itself time and time again that it can steamroll any capitalism-inspired threat. I believe I read that Bill Gates was a likely ENTJ; his company's cutthroat precise business strategy would certainly corroborate that.

[millerm277]

Btw, how come you install so many times to make such things worthwhile?

There are currently 13 computers hooked up in this house, 6 of which run 24/7. So, take however many reinstalls you do, and multiply it by at least 6. (Especially since some of the other members of this household DO manage to get a lot of malicious software.)

In addition, I'm constantly messing around with things on my machines, and inevtiably, at some point, something breaks. (That doesn't happen very often anymore, when I first got into computers 8 years ago it did.) Plus, I don't keep any data on the partition the OS is on, so it isn't a big deal.

[Xander]

The competition, at least, has been SORELY needed for over a decade. The free/open source software paradigm was exactly what we needed to rustle Microsoft's feathers, as Microsoft itself has proven itself time and time again that it can steamroll any capitalism-inspired threat. I believe I read that Bill Gates was a likely ENTJ; his company's cutthroat precise business strategy would certainly corroborate that.
Oh hell no... your not getting away with besmirching that type with THAT brush!!! Bill Gates is untypable except as an ass.

(See.. now no one get's hurt)


Still reading through the Windows 7 blog makes me think this competition may yet bring out the best in MS, whatever that turns out to be.
There are currently 13 computers hooked up in this house, 6 of which run 24/7. So, take however many reinstalls you do, and multiply it by at least 6. (Especially since some of the other members of this household DO manage to get a lot of malicious software.)

In addition, I'm constantly messing around with things on my machines, and inevtiably, at some point, something breaks. (That doesn't happen very often anymore, when I first got into computers 8 years ago it did.) Plus, I don't keep any data on the partition the OS is on, so it isn't a big deal.
Well I only keep reinstalling cause I tinker.. too many optimisation programs and small tweaks..

Oh and I'm only on 10 years since my first PC. I still break them as often (if not more) it's just I know more about fixing them now :D