Women, "Play Nice" and the Danger Instinct

[PinkPiranha]

GABRIELLE UNION - RAPE VICTIM UNION URGES WOMEN TO TRUST THEIR INSTINCTS (http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/article/rape%20victim%20union%20urges%20women%20to%20trust %20their%20instincts_1009049)

Gabrielle Union was 19 when she was raped at gunpoint while she was trying to close up the mall store she worked at - and now she just wishes she had run when her gut told her to. She says, "When the man who raped me came into the store, my heart said run, but I was raised to be polite and not make others uncomfortable. Women are constantly second-guessing our instincts but you know your body, and your body is telling you something is wrong... We are given instincts for a reason."



************************************************** ***

This began in depth over in CzeCze's blog. She mentioned feeling threatened in a recent encounter with men at a club where such behaviors are typical. Digest and I continued the conversation and realized it would make a compelling and timely discussion about women and social training to "play nice".

In my home state alone, gun sales have jumped two to three times the normal rate because so many women have been murdered by men.

As a woman, have you been even subtly trained to defer? Ignore your instincts to the contrary? Called names because you stood up for yourself? Made to feel stupid because you sided with your better judgment and resisted?

[Ivy]

I will get into this in more depth at a later time. It's one of my favorite topics. But for now, here is a book on this exact issue that IMO we should all read:

Amazon.com: The Gift of Fear: Gavin De Becker: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440226198)

[Tallulah]

That makes a lot of sense. Often you can do little "tests" to see if you get a bad intention vibe. If you come up with an excuse to leave a person you feel iffy about, and they're trying to keep you around and engaged in conversation, it can be a bad sign. If you cross the street to avoid them and they cross the street a minute later, etc. At that point, you can kind of "treat it like a duck" and not really care if their feelings are hurt. Get somewhere safe, or where there are lots of people.

A lot of these guys are counting on the fact that you don't want to hurt their feelings. btw, Ted Bundy used to fake a broken leg and ask women to help him carry his textbooks to his car, b/c he looked like he couldn't manage on crutches. And of course, there are some who stage a broken-down car scenario to prey on those who stop to help.

[disregard]

This began in depth over in CzeCze's blog. She mentioned feeling threatened in a recent encounter with men at a club where such behaviors are typical. Digest and I continued the conversation and realized it would make a compelling and timely discussion about women and social training to "play nice".

In my home state alone, gun sales have jumped two to three times the normal rate because so many women have been murdered by men.

As a woman, have you been even subtly trained to defer? Ignore your instincts to the contrary? Called names because you stood up for yourself? Made to feel stupid because you sided with your better judgment and resisted?

Interesting topic. I used to be submissive to strangers, for whatever reason (stemming from insecurity and a need for acceptance is my guess), and it is amazing how much power the need to keep the peace had over me. The last straw was when I was taken advantage of (sexually) by an acquaintance of mine. I was nice all the way through, and even afterward (I managed to apologise to him and make him feel like everything was alright). After that, I found a new strength within me that hadn't been there before, and it is now the foundation of my vie de résistance.

[LadyJaye]

Pink and I were taught to be excruciatingly polite, which I think completely obliterates a woman's ability to trust her own primal intuition. It enraged me that I was constantly talking myself out of feeling unsafe or menaced, because I was almost always correct. Living in an inner city area, there was a lot of violent crime, so we were very aware of ourselves and the people around us, so I finally just did myself a favor and told myself to go with my instincts if something made me feel endangered. Once, Pink, my best friend and I were walking around a lake in town that is popular for joggers - I kept noticing this guy, who passed us several times going in the opposite direction. I knew he was doing something because the lake was too large for him to have lapped us so many times. I mentioned it to my friend, and kept walking. A few minutes later, I made the habitual check behind me, and there he was, right behind us. I stopped abruptly and made a huge scene - I bellowed at him that I knew what he was doing, and that if I saw him behind me again I was going to call the police. He didn't say anything, just got this flat irritated expression on his face, and then disappeared. We decided it was time to leave, so we finished our lap around the lake, and then went to the parking lot - Pink and I got in our car and drove about 10 minutes to a shopping center, and right as we parked, the GUY pulled into the parking space in FRONT of us, smiling this creepy smile. I was FURIOUS - I grabbed a wrench out of the floorboard and started to get out of the car, yelling at him through our windshield - he stopped smiling and started looking freaked out, but thankfully, Pink did the right thing and prevented me from getting out. It would have been such a horrible idea for me to have gotten out of the car. We went to a friend's workplace a few doors down, and the guy disappeared.

I used to think that Pink and I had more horror stories because we were in men's job fields, but the more I talk with my friends, the more I understand how easily women can be menaced.

[LadyJaye]

Interesting topic. I used to be submissive to strangers, for whatever reason (stemming from insecurity and a need for acceptance is my guess), and it is amazing how much power the need to keep the peace had over me. The last straw was when I was taken advantage of (sexually) by an acquaintance of mine. I was nice all the way through, and even afterward (I managed to apologise to him and make him feel like everything was alright). After that, I found a new strength within me that hadn't been there before, and it is now the foundation of my vie de résistance.

I'm so sorry to hear that this happened to you. Being raped changes everything - it's one of the worst things that could ever happen to anyone. I was also raped, and I was terrified of men for years afterward. It was crippling sometimes, but when I became a preteen, I realized I was better off getting angry about it, and that then, at least, I had a chance. Once I stopped caring about everyone else's comfort above my own safety, it put me in charge of what could happen to me, to the best of my ability.

[Tallulah]

Pink and I were taught to be excruciatingly polite, which I think completely obliterates a woman's ability to trust her own primal intuition. It enraged me that I was constantly talking myself out of feeling unsafe or menaced, because I was almost always correct. Living in an inner city area, there was a lot of violent crime, so we were very aware of ourselves and the people around us, so I finally just did myself a favor and told myself to go with my instincts if something made me feel endangered. Once, Pink my best friend and I were walking around a lake in town that is popular for joggers - I kept noticing this guy, who passed us several times going in the opposite direction. I knew he was doing something because the lake was too large for him to have lapped us so many times. I mentioned it to my friend, and kept walking. A few minutes later, I made the habitual check behind me, and there he was, right behind us. I stopped abruptly and made a huge scene - I bellowed at him that I knew what he was doing, and that if I saw him behind me again I was going to call the police. He didn't say anything, just got this flat irritated expression on his face, and then disappeared. We decided it was time to leave, so we finished our lap around the lake, and then went to the parking lot - Pink and I got in our car and drove about 10 minutes to a shopping center, and right as we parked, the GUY pulled into the parking space in FRONT of us, smiling this creepy smile. I was FURIOUS - I grabbed a wrench out of the floorboard and started to get out of the car, yelling at him through our windshield - he stopped smiling and started looking freaked out, but thankfully, Pink did the right thing and prevented me from getting out. It would have been such a horrible idea for me to have gotten out of the car. We went to a friend's workplace a few doors down, and the guy disappeared.

I used to think that Pink and I had more horror stories because we were in men's job fields, but the more I talk with my friends, the more I understand how easily women can be menaced.

Wow. 1) What a creep! and 2) Good for you for calling him out on it. But yeah, probably good you didn't get out of the car. If I go walking by myself or just with another girl, I usually have something on me that will either do some damage or make some noise. With those wooded park areas, it's too easy to imagine some guy jumping you and carrying you off without anyone even noticing.

[heart]

I learned in my mid-twenties to never, ever distrust my gut. Also always, always lock the damn car door as soon as you get in and it never gets unlocked until you get out, just takes a minute and can make a lot of difference. Don't sit in car with windows down, even if you think you know the area well and have always felt "safe" there. That's my advice.

I told the story that prompts my comments before here (I think!) but my mind is too tired to tell it today.

[LadyJaye]

Wow. 1) What a creep! and 2) Good for you for calling him out on it. But yeah, probably good you didn't get out of the car. If I go walking by myself or just with another girl, I usually have something on me that will either do some damage or make some noise. With those wooded park areas, it's too easy to imagine some guy jumping you and carrying you off without anyone even noticing.

We also carry things with us when we leave the house. When I first started welding, I had a guy grab me in the shop, which turned into a brawl, and after that, my father bought Pink and I both bought us knives with thumb bolts on them, and he removed the locking screw next to the blade, so we could flip them out with only one hand if someone had us pinned down. Of course, I'm not some Cammie Streetfighter, so didn't exactly go around menacing guys with it. But, my shop foreman, a wonderful man, made sure that everyone there knew I had a "hog sticker", and that he was more than willing for me to hurt somebody if anyone tried to touch me again.

[Jae Rae]

The Kiss of Death for women is our training to be nice, not make a scene, etc. I feel I've spent a lot of my adult life unlearning to be nice.

I've learned to listen to my gut. Once I got off BART in downtown Oakland - not a great area - and was walking the four blocks to work. I started getting a creepy vibe that someone was following me. I ducked into a deli and turned around to confront the guy who followed me in: "Stop following me." I looked right at him. He stammered: "I wasn't following you." I waited until he walked in the opposite direction and then headed out again. A woman caught up to me and said she'd seen him following me and I was absolutely right about him. Her hit was that he was going to snatch my purse.

Another time I was walking in SF in the rain. A guy came up next to me, ostensibly to share my umbrella. He put his arm around me and touched my bottom. Immediately I swung my umbrella at him as a weapon. He jumped back several feet and then fled.

There is no good reason for a man to follow, stalk or stake out a woman. Usually these are guys with poor social skills who feel they're entitled to her stuff, including her body and sexuality, if they can take it. No need to feel ashamed or worried you're going to offend a "nice" guy. If your body tells you it's wrong, it's wrong. Usually your body is screaming the message to get away.

I worked with a guy in his 30s who used to touch the hair of the all the nice library pages who were in our early 20s. It bothered us a lot; I mentioned it to one of the other pages, but we were afraid of being thought of as troublemakers, so said nothing even though he was the troublemaker. I've learned a lot since then.

[prplchknz]

When I go out late at night, I always feel more comfortable if their's a guy in the group that is trust worthy. if I am having to ride the bus or train late at night or alone, and their's a guy creeping me out. I will get off at the next stop and then get on the next bus. Luckily with the train I can just switch cars. but then I have that fun walk from the stop (if taking the train to my apartment which is 5 blocks) luckily the bus lets out right in front of my apartment building so I walk like 50 feet. I also have a thing of mace, it's sad that I have to take all these precautions to have fun, but I'm only 130 lbs most guys weigh more then that and could easily over power me. So yeah, I still prefer late nights with a guy that I know I can trust. Also if their's a male in the group, it seems to me less likely something would happen. With guys I always go with my instinct, fuck societies rules I'd rather go against what I was taught then be raped kidnapped or killed.

[LadyJaye]

The Kiss of Death for women is our training to be nice, not make a scene, etc. I feel I've spent a lot of my adult life unlearning to be nice.

I've learned to listen to my gut. Once I got off BART in downtown Oakland - not a great area - and was walking the four blocks to work. I started getting a creepy vibe that someone was following me. I ducked into a deli and turned around to confront the guy who followed me in: "Stop following me." I looked right at him. He stammered: "I wasn't following you." I waited until he walked in the opposite direction and then headed out again. A woman caught up to me and said she'd seen him following me and I was absolutely right about him. Her hit was that he was going to snatch my purse.

Good for YOU!


There is no good reason for a man to follow, stalk or stake out a woman. Usually these are guys with poor social skills who feel they're entitled to her stuff, including her body and sexuality, if they can take it. No need to feel ashamed or worried you're going to offend a "nice" guy. If your body tells you it's wrong, it's wrong. Usually your body is screaming the message to get away.

Seriously. And the alarming thing about being taught to ignore your intuition is that it makes all women targets. You've essentially been defeated before you have a chance to fight back.

I worked with a guy in his 30s who used to touch the hair of the all the nice library pages who were in our early 20s. It bothered us a lot; I mentioned it to one of the other pages, but we were afraid of being thought of as troublemakers, so said nothing even though he was the troublemaker. I've learned a lot since then.

YUCK! How awful. And how accurate, the whole "troublemaker" label. One day I actually sat there and thought about it, and I came to the conclusion that
" Who cares if you think I'm a troublemaker?!" But it took me a long time to get to that point. And believe me, I got yelled at a LOT for standing up for myself, even by my parents, which was discouraging because their opinions of me really mattered.

Pink and I were stalked by a guy from CHURCH for several months - followed us around the city, showing up at my work, showing up where I was hanging out with my friends. When he finally showed up at my house, I opened the door and told him that if he ever came here again, I was going to beat him down. But the people at church were very " Oh dear, we're so sorry" but then they did very little about it, because it wasn't nice. They did eventually tell the guy to leave the church, but only after he'd harassed the two of us for almost a year.

[LadyJaye]

When I go out late at night, I always feel more comfortable if their's a guy in the group that is trust worthy. if I am having to ride the bus or train late at night or alone, and their's a guy creeping me out. I will get off at the next stop and then get on the next bus. Luckily with the train I can just switch cars. but then I have that fun walk from the stop (if taking the train to my apartment which is 5 blocks) luckily the bus lets out right in front of my apartment building so I walk like 50 feet. I also have a thing of mace, it's sad that I have to take all these precautions to have fun, but I'm only 130 lbs most guys weigh more then that and could easily over power me. So yeah, I still prefer late nights with a guy that I know I can trust. Also if their's a male in the group, it seems to me less likely something would happen. With guys I always go with my instinct, fuck societies rules I'd rather go against what I was taught then be raped kidnapped or killed.

You do what you have to do to feel safe, bottom line. When I was a teenager, I almost always went out with a guy friend. It's so much safer. But you're right, the last 50 feet to the door can be a problem. I used to work second shift, and when I pulled up into my driveway, I had all of my things already consolidated into one manageable bag, and I didn't unlock my car door until I'd put my keys in between my fingers, so they stuck out, in case I had to defend myself ( like I said, we lived in a really unsafe area ), and it also kept me from having to fumble around for them or accidentally drop them.

[Jae Rae]

Good for YOU!




Seriously. And the alarming thing about being taught to ignore your intuition is that it makes all women targets. You've essentially been defeated before you have a chance to fight back.



YUCK! How awful. And how accurate, the whole "troublemaker" label. One day I actually sat there and thought about it, and I came to the conclusion that
" Who cares if you think I'm a troublemaker?!" But it took me a long time to get to that point. And believe me, I got yelled at a LOT for standing up for myself, even by my parents, which was discouraging because their opinions of me really mattered.

Pink and I were stalked by a guy from CHURCH for several months - followed us around the city, showing up at my work, showing up where I was hanging out with my friends. When he finally showed up at my house, I opened the door and told him that if he ever came here again, I was going to beat him down. But the people at church were very " Oh dear, we're so sorry" but then they did very little about it, because it wasn't nice. They did eventually tell the guy to leave the church, but only after he'd harassed the two of us for almost a year.

Not to offend you or anyone else, but do you think this is a Southern thing? I have a friend whose family is from S. Carolina and we talk about overcoming this "nice" thing all the time.

A church guy, who would have guessed? If you read the "Places to Meet Nice Guys" articles, church/synagogue is on the list. But insecure, immature men hang out everywhere.

A friend of mine and I went to the beach when we were teens in Florida. When I came out of the water, my friend was squared off a with a guy in a very tense way. He walked off and my friend told me he'd said "You have by far the best breasts on the beach today." That was his opening line!! I went home and told my mom, who didn't see anything wrong with it. She felt he was complimenting her.

Years later, I had an encounter with a middle-aged guy who came to the Rare Book Room where I worked every Saturday. We chatted politely. One day he came in, gave me a picture he'd drawn, then jumped at me and tried to kiss me. Instead of yelling loudly and telling him to go away and never come back, I ran out and got one of the male employees to stand by me when I told him politely to stay away from me. When I told a male friend this story, he actually felt sorry for the guy. "It's hard for older men to get affection." Be nice messages are quite ubiquitous.

And then we, as women, are made to feel there's something wrong with us for wanting our bodies to remain our own and for not considering how the guy feels. :doh:

[Ivy]

I do think Southern women are taught more social submission than women in many other areas. Probably at least in part because we're in the Bible Belt. A lot of what I remember being taught as a child about this sort of thing was basically "turn the other cheek," "always return good for evil" and stuff like that.

[LadyJaye]

Not to offend you or anyone else, but do you think this is a Southern thing? I have a friend whose family is from S. Carolina and we talk about overcoming this "nice" thing all the time.

Oh hey, no offense taken at all. It IS a Southern trait. Usually, the culture of pleasantness works out, but it requires all parties in a situation to be aware of the unspoken rules. If someone gets vulgar or rude, then I think past history called on the Southern man to defend the offended woman. This doesn't work AT ALL now. So we have to unlearn all of that unhelpful politeness. To me, it's like a form of learned helplessness.

Of course, when I was in school in Ireland, I encountered the "play nice" in the girls I was in class with to an extreme that I've never seen before. They treated Pink and I like we were both Rambo for telling a guy to step off. lol


Years later, I had an encounter with a middle-aged guy who came to the Rare Book Room where I worked every Saturday. We chatted politely. One day he came in, gave me a picture he'd drawn, then jumped at me and tried to kiss me. Instead of yelling loudly and telling him to go away and never come back, I ran out and got one of the male employees to stand by me when I told him politely to stay away from me. When I told a male friend this story, he actually felt sorry for the guy. "It's hard for older men to get affection." Be nice messages are quite ubiquitous.

HOW awkward! And what was your guy friend thinking?!

And then we, as women, are made to feel there's something wrong with us for wanting our bodies to remain our own and for not considering how the guy feels. :doh:

Exactly. Wonderfully stated.

[Mondo]

Always trust that instinct!
There are some creepy people who take advantage of the fact that some feel that they have to 'play nice'. Don't feel sorry for such losers.

[Anja]

I was raised to ALWAYS defer to my elders. This caused me no end of difficulty in my first few jobs and especially in college where I ran into the old "You want an A?" thing more times than any man would ever believe happens.

"Anja, are you being sexually harrassed?"

"No! No! (I didn't do anything to get into "that kind" of situation.)

"Are you sure you're okay?"

"Um, yeah. I'm fine. No problem. I think."

In spite of decades of efforts at consciousness-raising we remain in the dark ages of awareness. Given the power, and the "secret" of sexual abuse and how widespread it is I'm afraid that we'll always have this problem.

I've tried before to explain to men what it is to be woman. To always be watching one's back. It's a difficult thing for them to comprehend. There's a certain lack of self-awareness there for many men about how their attitudes, if not behavior, contribute to the problem. I know it took having a female child for my husband to finally sit up and pay attention.

The part Mom forgot? "ALWAYS defer to your elders unless. . ."

Having raised two children, one of them a very sociable female child, I know that parents walk a very fine line teaching their children caution. It's not an easy thing to teach without frightening a child. I was careful not to crush her free-spirited and trustful ways and at the same time needed to educate her about taking care of her self and trusting her gut.

She's got it but she had to run the gauntlet, just like most all of us do, to get there. Sad.

[Anja]

(Hey,Jae. I ride also and once upon a time was a librarian and taught English! Kewl.)

[Jae Rae]

Anja, thank you for sharing your story. I agree - it takes some men awhile to understand how a woman feels when she's being sexually harrassed. Parenthood often does it.

There are even judges who don't understand why a woman would want a restraining order against a guy. "Can't you just talk to him?"

Where were you a librarian?

[PinkPiranha]

I want to thank everyone for their participation and input. I'm both pleased and astonished by how many strong-minded ladies we have here, and saddened that you all, world-wide, have seen so many dark times. I hope by sharing we can lighten the collective load and learn how to be safer while not being afraid or driven to cynicism.

I'm really pleased that Ivy mentioned "The Gift of Fear". That was the book title that had eluded my memory. If anyone has read it, please do tell us about your experience with it and how it made you feel.

[Anja]

Your welcome, Pink. I was glad to have found you women here discussing this. There was a time when I was actively searching for answers and it's been a while since I've had a conversation of this type.

When I worked for the state I taught a staff development class on women-focussed wellness which was always an interesting challenge. (Heh. Queen of the understatement I am!)

So I like to think I have something to offer.

I was a student librarian, Jae, at my high school in southern MN and later at a college in northern IA. I'd once considered making it a career. Pure heaven - hiding in the stacks and reading. It could have been a disastrous choice!

What you do today would probably bear no faint resemblance to the old stamping books stuff.

I'm looking forward to getting to know you all better and am happy to be well-received!

For anyone who is interested, if you'll forgive me for using this thread by way of introduction, I've been getting to know people at INFP Global Chatter and have an introduction there on the intro thread.

[proteanmix]

I've got a little different spin on women and playing nice.

I can identify in some ways but others I can't. As far as my physical safety is concerned, I was raised to stand my ground and fight like a deranged banshee if ever someone threatened to physically attack me. My father and brother taught my sister and I how to fight (dirty if necessary) and my sister is naturally athletic and pals around with guys. I grew up minutes away from very violent areas but my specific neighborhood was comparatively low crime. I was taught to be aware of my surroundings and if anything looked amiss don't ignore my feelings of danger. The only real times I was instructed to defer to people was with church folks, not even a general deference to older people or as a woman.

Actually around my way, if you ever punked out you'd get it 20x worse. I've actually had the opposite problem of wanting to show myself as peaceful and not have it be taken as a sign of weakness. You'd always have to have the last word, last comeback, be harder and sometimes I'd feel like OK, I'm done I don't want to go through this pissing contest but if you showed weakness it would be like open season. I think many people regardless of their sex in my environment feel the need to be tougher than what they actually are and that is just as wearying; to be constantly fighting and never able to take off your armor and rest.

Because of this, I've always felt (foolishly?) immune to certain types of attacks and my vulnerability as a woman because I've always (foolishly?) thought that I can handle myself.

[Jae Rae]

I want to thank everyone for their participation and input. I'm both pleased and astonished by how many strong-minded ladies we have here, and saddened that you all, world-wide, have seen so many dark times. I hope by sharing we can lighten the collective load and learn how to be safer while not being afraid or driven to cynicism.

I'm really pleased that Ivy mentioned "The Gift of Fear". That was the book title that had eluded my memory. If anyone has read it, please do tell us about your experience with it and how it made you feel.

I'll request it from the library today.

And thanks for the great thread. I appreciated reading everyone's posts.

[cafe]

I haven't had too much trouble, but I was raised to be suspicious. My mom went through a lot of the kinds of things mentioned here so I've always been kind of aware of that stuff.

I did have that one guy at the bus stop invite me into a stairwell with him to get out of the rain. I felt as though my intelligence was being insulted more than anything. :doh: But I was still glad when the bus came.

I would definitely like to read that book, though. :yes:

[Antisocial one]

There is no way I can say what I will say without sounding creepy but I am doing this because I think that women are overlooking one factor.

Since I am a guy who knows how it is like when women runs away from you screaming and thinking that her life is over I will take my place in the thread.

I have already confessed in another thread what happened so I will not again.
I like to spend time in dark and quiet places alone because it is the best for abstract thinking.

But what strikes me is running speed of women in the time of crisis. I am a person who is a good runner even for a guy. So in the case that I was a maniac there is no way she could have escaped me.

Also if you are against three guys your only hope is to run away. I have seen women running in normal situations and in crisis, and I am sorry to say that this speed will take you nowhere.
So, all of you should at least try to work on that.
(I am sorry if I am creating generalization here)


This is the best advice I can offer in this topic.

[Jennifer]

I will get into this in more depth at a later time. It's one of my favorite topics. But for now, here is a book on this exact issue that IMO we should all read:

Amazon.com: The Gift of Fear: Gavin De Becker: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440226198)

Just as an endorsement, it's one of my favorite books ever.

How'd it make me feel? It made me feel like I could trust my intuition in a crisis situation without having to justify my behavior with some kind of logical rationalization. The mind is aware of much more than we are conscious of, and sometimes we might not understand our intuitions until after the situation is resolved.

I still reread it every so often. He's also a wonderful communicator and knows how to convey his ideas well.

...I had all of my things already consolidated into one manageable bag, and I didn't unlock my car door until I'd put my keys in between my fingers, so they stuck out, in case I had to defend myself ( like I said, we lived in a really unsafe area ), and it also kept me from having to fumble around for them or accidentally drop them.

That's actually what I do too. I'm not paranoid, but I'm prudent and try to minimize my vulnerability. I also always keep my doors locked, as soon as I get in the car, and I'm careful where I walk, etc. I like being with someone if I can.

I've also told myself already, if I'm in a situation that I don't like or I feel harassed by someone, even if there's nothing I can put my finger on as specific justification, I'm allowed to be a bitch and just get out of things. Screw being "nice" and protecting someone else's feelings in that sort of situation.

Have any of you read "Lucky" by Alice Sebold? (The topic matter is harsh, it might be too much... but... just... I don't even know how to describe it. She's a very strong woman.)

[InaF3157]

What is troubling is that you are taught to be nice and deferential as a woman, but if you are victimized on account of it, you are blamed for that. Personally, I think it is a good call to distrust and dismiss anyone who tries to teach you to weaken your natural defences or your human reactions. They have something besides your well-being at heart.

[proteanmix]

There is no way I can say what I will say without sounding creepy but I am doing this because I think that women are overlooking one factor.

Since I am a guy who knows how it is like when women runs away from you screaming and thinking that her life is over I will take my place in the thread.

I have already confessed in another thread what happened so I will not again.
I like to spend time in dark and quiet places alone because it is the best for abstract thinking.

But what strikes me is running speed of women in the time of crisis. I am a person who is a good runner even for a guy. So in the case that I was a maniac there is no way she could have escaped me.

Also if you are against three guys your only hope is to run away. I have seen women running in normal situations and in crisis, and I am sorry to say that this speed will take you nowhere.
So, all of you should at least try to work on that.
(I am sorry if I am creating generalization here)


This is the best advice I can offer in this topic.

Thank you?

[Jennifer]

Thank you?

I admit, I am not sure how to read any of that either.

(I do know enough though to stay away from rabid sheep!)

[Jae Rae]

It is the kind of advice that is well-meant but shouldn't be necessary in a civilized society. But the point is well-taken. Women benefit from model mugging courses and martial arts, not only to defend themselves, but to get an air of empowerment to defend themselves. The first thing you learn is to yell NO!

As pointed out, a woman against three men has little chance. As a college coed I found myself walking down Main Street in Worcester past a group of ne'er-do-wells who decided to have some fun with me. Five or six guys surrounded me, asked me where I was going, etc. It was rather scary, but somehow I knew I would be OK. Eventually they let me move on. Far better to have crossed the street...

I look forward to reading the book.

[Anja]

I woke up to the encouragement of strengthening my running skills and have seriously considered investing in a pair of Red Ball Jets. (Remember those tennies which were guaranteed to help you run faster?)

So laffin' out loud here. Thanks for the light-hearted moment in a sobering conversation.

You know, at my age nothing is ever going to enable me to run as fast as a twelve-year old sex-crazed male. And I've heard that the chase is half of the game, so I'm doubtful. . .

[Anja]

Sigh.

[Antisocial one]

Sorry girls/ladies I have to explain myself becuse I can't just leave entire thing at this it would be just too ....(insert word)


Thank you?

I admit, I am not sure how to read any of that either.

If I am getting the signals in the right way I have sent mixed massage at least to an certain degree.

My point here is that everybody in this thread have only been on one side and I am probably the only one on this forum which was on the other. And what is sure is that I am the only who is willing to share the experiance and insight of the other side..

What happened to me that night wasn't done by my choice or it was planned. It just happened that she run into me in the place where she did not expect somebody.

EDIT: What I found very interesting in this thread is the insight that women think about who is the maniac so often.
Honestly I was clueless.

[LadyJaye]

What is troubling is that you are taught to be nice and deferential as a woman, but if you are victimized on account of it, you are blamed for that. Personally, I think it is a good call to distrust and dismiss anyone who tries to teach you to weaken your natural defences or your human reactions. They have something besides your well-being at heart.

It breaks my heart to say how many of my friends have been attacked and then blamed for it. It's ludicrous.


It is the kind of advice that is well-meant but shouldn't be necessary in a civilized society. But the point is well-taken. Women benefit from model mugging courses and martial arts, not only to defend themselves, but to get an air of empowerment to defend themselves. The first thing you learn is to yell NO!

As pointed out, a woman against three men has little chance. As a college coed I found myself walking down Main Street in Worcester past a group of ne'er-do-wells who decided to have some fun with me. Five or six guys surrounded me, asked me where I was going, etc. It was rather scary, but somehow I knew I would be OK. Eventually they let me move on. Far better to have crossed the street...

I look forward to reading the book.

Scary! I've had a group of guys surround me before, and it was really tense. I'm so glad they didn't do anything to you.

[Antisocial one]

I wrote my last post here late last night and I did not saw that the post in one part says that I am actually willing to scare and chase women late at night. I have repaired the post so now it is what it should be.

I am getting out of this thread before it is too late.

[bluebell]

Interesting thread. I really really struggle with trusting my instincts because mine are overly hypervigilant, about things that are usually totally harmless. eg anyone sneezing or coughing used to freak me out because it reminded me (at an unconcious level) of some bad stuff. I know that I overreact to many mundane safe trivial things so it's hard to know when I need to be genuinely vigilant. And something that isn't often acknowledged is that females can be aggressors as well. It's probably much rarer but it does happen.

I'm aware of most of my past, but this thread reminded me of something I'd forgotten. At grad school, I'd been told by a couple of female grad students to avoid being alone with a particular professor at another college because of his inappropriate behaviour. Two of my (male) advisors wanted to me to go visit this profressor by myself and I told them what I'd heard. I can't remember their exact words but it was something dismissive like 'oh, we expect our female students to be able to be able to be strong enough to be able to deal with things like that'. The stupid thing was at that point in my life I was extremely shy and meek - it should have been obvious to everyone who knew me then that I was unlikely to have the skills to have handled it. I didn't end up going, I don't remember why now (it's all a bit hazy now).

[Anja]

I've had some time to think on this today and the thought that haunts me about this subject is the relationship between sex and violence.

It's everywhere in our society and certainly blatant in today's social patter. For example the way we casually throw the expression "Eff you" around as a means of expressing ill-will toward someone.

My understanding of the Eff word, ugly sounding as it is with no explanation of meaning involved, is that it is used to describe an act of love. Short of love being involved it is nonetheless descriptive of an act of creation, not destruction. Of human connection, not disharmony.

Thinking about how this has been distorted.

More later.

Comments?

[Anja]

Sorry - I needed to tie that in to the OP.

"Play nice" = danger.

[Algora J]

This is a very interesting thread.

I always think women are taught to supress their instincts by attempting to be "polite" and to use "linear logic" (ie, "there is no reason to fear that man and you have to give him the benefit of the doubt").

Just for purposes of sharing, I had 3 very distinct incidents in which I became hypervigiliant in regards to men.

1. I went to a private kindergarten art school, and on one day, a man came to give a presentation on fairy tales. I immediately sensed something "creepy" about him, as he would make a point to stare at me or to sit close to me, and I immediately went to one of my teachers (who was probably about 24 years old) and told her I wanted to go home. She couldn't quite understand it, and called my mother to pick me up. I was only about 5 years old then, but looking back, I think he was probably some sort of child molester. According to Bertrand Russell, children are most immediately in touch with their atavistic instincts. I think that young children (and also animals) can immediately tell if a person is dangerous or being insincere.

2. I was 15 and at an outgoing for a camping trip within my church. There was an adult male supervisor there who was visiting from another branch of the church. During the entire weekend, he kept taking numerous photographs of me, while ignoring the other children. I immediately sensed there was something "not quite right" about him and made it a point to be with the other male churchgoers my age during the entire duration of the trip. Anyhow, the boys ended up protecting me, but one of them did end up throwing me into a lake for fun. :D However, the male supervisor never approached me while the other boys were around, although he tried very hard to approach me around other girls. The gut feeling (Te + Ni) I had about the man was exactly similar to the incident when I was 5.

3. Just recently, I was picking up some items at a shop, and a man was following me around the entire store. He followed me everywhere and I had the initial instinct to run. But since I was surrounded by people in daylight, I convinced myself that I wasn't in any danger. As I was leaving, he followed me to checkout, then outside to where my car was, but stopped just before the outside of the entrance. I think the reason being was that there were many people around, and he couldn't act without being seen.

I think we should trust our instincts. They are quite logical in that we immediately sense something wrong about the entire picture, and even if we do not have all the evidence, there is something there that threatens our well being.

OT, I felt the same way about John Edwards watching him in the Democratic debates. There's just something about that man that feels "wrong" to me. I'm not comparing him to incidents 1-3, but definitely something about him brings about those atavistic instincts within myself in which tells you not to trust that individual.

[Jae Rae]

Yes, this is a very interesting discussion.

Thanks for sharing your stories.

[Jennifer]

...My point here is that everybody in this thread have only been on one side and I am probably the only one on this forum which was on the other. And what is sure is that I am the only who is willing to share the experiance and insight of the other side..

What happened to me that night wasn't done by my choice or it was planned. It just happened that she run into me in the place where she did not expect somebody.

Oh. So essentially she reacted to you as if you were a threat and/or stalker type, because of the context of the situation, even if your intentions were positive?

[InaF3157]

OT, I felt the same way about John Edwards watching him in the Democratic debates. There's just something about that man that feels "wrong" to me. I'm not comparing him to incidents 1-3, but definitely something about him brings about those atavistic instincts within myself in which tells you not to trust that individual.

You're not alone on this; he repulsed me straight away. To be fair, he does seem sleazy in a way I'd think even the intuition-deficient could pick up.

Oh. So essentially she reacted to you as if you were a threat and/or stalker type, because of the context of the situation, even if your intentions were positive?
And this without reading his posts on MBTIc. Hmm . . . She's good. :D

[Samuel De Mazarin]

You're not alone on this; he repulsed me straight away. To be fair, he does seem sleazy in a way I'd think even the intuition-deficient could pick up.

Can you always trust your intuition? I mean... I felt similarly... he looked too polished... too smooth... reminded me of Kennedy... but then I felt like I wasn't giving him the benefit of the doubt...

Though I realize you're not one for giving people the benefit of the doubt... at least not easily... ;)

[InaF3157]

Can you always trust your intuition? I mean... I felt similarly... he looked too polished... too smooth... reminded me of Kennedy... but then I felt like I wasn't giving him the benefit of the doubt...

Though I realize you're not one for giving people the benefit of the doubt... at least not easily... ;)

No, you cannot trust it entirely. That's the rub. I have given people the benefit of the doubt based on intuition before and been wrong. Is that a failure of intuition? Perhaps.

[Antisocial one]

Oh. So essentially she reacted to you as if you were a threat and/or stalker type, because of the context of the situation, even if your intentions were positive?


If you take the context, I think that there is no sane women out there who would not done the same. My intentions were not good or bad it just happened.


The context was : night with some moonlight, graveyard ,Christmas, guy in black behind your back.

Now somebody could ask me what the hell I was doing in the graveyard at night?

I live near one graveyard and I am astronomy geek. So I always have problem with lights but at the graveyard there is no light so this is the atmosphere I need. But I would be telling lies if I would say that the combination of night, moon, silence and graves is not attractive to me.

But in the situation we are talking about I was visiting grandfathers grave.

Since it was really nice night I took a short walk around the graveyard.
But the graveyard is like one big labyrinth so it turned out that I appeared out of nowhere and behind her back.

I have posted my original post in this thread because I know that I can run 5 times faster than her. In the case that I was a maniac I could have done what ever I wanted because there was no one there, just us and graves.

When you are runing away from better runner it is important that you are not too slow. So if you have advantage of 15 meters there is a possibility that you can escape if you are running behind the corners all the time.
That is because that can make him stop for a moment to think where you have gone or to hear from which direction the sound of running is coming from.
Your advantage is that you direct direction and with some luck and running speed you have the chance to lose him.
So my point is that you don't have to be super runner to escape. But from what I have seen the woman was way too slow. (she was not fat).

Later she and I have meet each other once again at the graveyards door where she was catching her breath and have a little chat about what happened.
She said to me something like " The moment when I have realized that you are not running after me was one of the most wonderful moments in my life."

[Jae Rae]

Another great story. This thread is A+.

[Trinity]

^ agree.

It's something I've never really thought about. Sure in a situation where I'm walking down a dark street on my own I'm alert and reactive but in some of the situations described I may have let my social graces override my intuition. Got to go read that book. Thanks.

[PinkPiranha]

I think as far as instincts go, it's important for women to remember that you do NOT owe it to the antagonist to "understand" his feelings or yours in a moment of perceived threat. Your job is to get away from that threat, and THEN when you're safely away, you can analyze the situation at leisure and fully understand what set your Fight-Flight instinct in motion.

You are NOT to psychoanalyze yourself, coach yourself, apply false reason, read motive into the aggressor's actions. You are to GET AWAY.

Analysis is for later.

I recall being confronted with some plastered punk-low lifes at a party for a friend. One of them was up in my business and touched my face, I smacked his hand, it got VERY dodgey for a split second before I made a joke that broke the tension and he laughed. An ISTJ friend of mine standing near me told me later that she had no idea how I managed to smack a drunk idiot and STILL get him to laugh/like me, but she was certain she was going to have start swinging unless a miracle of diplomacy occurred. Fortunately (and surprisingly) it did. I got myself (sis and friend included) out of there immediately.

[Anja]

One incident when my intuition backfired, though was accurate, was a time I was alone sunbathing at an old haunt.

Eyes closed, I sensed that someone was in my presence and I looked up to see a man very nearby holding a pair of binoculars which he had trained on me. I closed my eyes again briefly and when I reopened them he was still gawking.

Ok. My thought process: This is a voyeur. Voyeurs are very timid and easily shamed.

I sat up and told him to stop training his binoculars on me. Since he didn't immediately respond I said a few things about voyeurism being the habit of young boys and that maybe he needed to look at himself. That I didn't intend for him to use my body for his afternoon's entertainment.

To my surprise he spewed an intense tirade with considerable name-calling and agression involved.

Since we were essentially alone in that area of the pond. I arose, picked up my things and walked to my car where I began jotting his license number down to call and give the police a heads-up on this man. Something didn't add up.

Several other details of his appearance, the time of day, the way he was dressed and the type of vehicle began to help me realize that this man was not a voyeur. This man was a hunter - a predator in the physical sense of the word.

He followed me from the beach and asked me what I was doing and I calmly and firmly answered with my intention and received another tirade.

Needless to say I wasted no time in cutting off my verbal connection with this frightening human and get out of his space.

When I called the police the officer laughed and said the man had already called them to report my verbal "attack" on him and added that they had received several other phone calls that day from other women.

He was driving a delivery van with no windows in the compartment.. Several times in reflection I've shuddered and wondered if I may have found myself privy to the secrets he was carrying with him had I showed fear or lingered to engage him in any way.

There are many ways to "run away" from a man and none are a guarantee.

[PinkPiranha]

When I called the police the officer laughed and said the man had already called them to report my verbal "attack" on him and added that they had received several other phone calls that day from other women.

Just hearing that makes me want to kick the snot out of him. Belligerent galling freak. Proud of you for taking charge, girl. You knew better and you weren't out off by his desperate maneuvers. You played it smart and cool.

Good job, Anja.

Did the police ever file charges against this man? Was he a predator?

[PinkPiranha]

I was nearly kidnapped once on my own street. Granted, I lived in a VERY bad neighborhood, but nothing like that had happened to me before.

I, my sis and two girlfriends were walking to my house. I was up front with my ISTJ friend, Mae, and Sis was behind several paces with Mary. Suddenly a car - a Safety Cab, ironically named.... - came roaring up beside us, with three men in it. The doors to the front and back flew open, and I heard them shouting leeringly to get in. I was walking to the outside and the doors almost hit me. One of the guys started to make a grab for me. I was so stunned that I froze, but Mae shouted "No!", seized me and flung me behind her into a ditch.

The evil perverts sped off when my next door neighbors - a bunch of construction workers - came flying up behind them in a Torino. "Did they hurt you?? Did they say anything?? GIRLS, RUN HOME NOW...." and then they tore off after them. They didn't catch them.

I remember lying in the ditch with Mae standing over me. "You saved me!" I said.

"Nobody snatches MY friend!" she snapped. (haha, love that ISTJ "bring it, fool" attitude)

[Anja]

It's good to be able to find a chuckle in the grimmest of stories and my INFP-ness shines through. You made me laugh, Pink.

I did go home and search the directory of phone numbers to find that he lived and worked in a town twenty miles away.

Edit: I wrote the Department of Motorized Vehicles.

Since then I have sometimes wondered what finally happened but haven't been willing to give that person any more of my time and energy than I can spare.

I'm in mind of how tremendous the power of that incident has been, though.

The pond was a place I had frequented for over twenty years. Sometimes with others, sometimes alone. It was a special place of rest and recuperation for me.

For several years thereafter I found myself avoidant of wanting to spend time alone there anymore.

Now I have overcome that man's influence on enjoyment of my leisure time and frequent the pond at my choice. Nonetheless there isn't ever a time I go when I don't have a flashback of what possible danger I was/could be in. I know other women here can relate to that.

A secondary thought is the remembrance of the policeman's laughter. Yes. There was ironic and predictable humor in a man blaming the woman. I got that part and laughed along. In retrospect, I can admit some sense of confusion about how seriously he was taking my observations.

[Anja]

Boys will be boys?

[PinkPiranha]

Boys will be boys?

The cop's humor is both understandable AND inappropriate. Sounds like he needed sensitivity training. Most cops are hard people, mostly due to the unpleasantness of their jobs, but come on.

That was not the best reaction and while it may have derived from "this wackjob is too much, eh?" consternation, I wouldn't be laughing if "many other women" had called to report this same man. Why on earth was he allowed to continue this behavior when he'd been reported multiple times in ONE DAY? That to me is unforgivable. The police should have dispatched to your location well before you ever had to call and add your justifiable complaint to the other ones.

I called the police once because I was home alone at midnight and was being harassed by a drunk transient on my front porch. My neighborhood was atrocious. Lived there almost 20 years. Got desensitized to the violence and rot largely, but not entirely. Someone showed up on my doorstep when I was home alone again (avoided this home alone-ness like the plague or kept the dogs in the house to defend me) pounding and pounding on my door. I wound up down in the hallway away from the open windows (dead of summer....) until the cops showed. I got a belligerent officer who fussed ME out for calling. I still have no idea why. He just laid into me as if *I* were the perpetrator.

[Anja]

Anja, thank you for sharing your story. I agree - it takes some men awhile to understand how a woman feels when she's being sexually harrassed. Parenthood often does it.

There are even judges who don't understand why a woman would want a restraining order against a guy. "Can't you just talk to him?"

Where were you a librarian?

Busy, busy mind here this afternoon. There are so many angles to approach this from.

I trust you Thinkers will help me stay focussed. . .

Your comment about judges is appreciated, Jae.

Once in a meeting of various public health care disciplines I heard a "prestigious" psychiatrist from the U of M go into a rant about why did people think that incest was necessarily an unpleasant experience for a child. Yes! I did witness that.

My colleagues and I sat in stony silence, cowed by his obvious superior position to ours and job security in mind, no doubt.

He ended his blathering with the comment that even addressing the issue just breaks up families.

I suddenly was aware of more information about this man's private life than I cared to know.

With "helpers" like these from where is our social direction to come? (Frood rears his ugly head once again.)

[PinkPiranha]

Horrifying!

[Anja]

I've got a list of them. .

All similar examples of the shambles which our Social Services have become. Same old, same old. Used to nearly drive me to tears.

One of many reasons why this discussion is germane.

Others? Societal/sexual attitudes shared by males Inadequate parenting by fathers. Uneducated parenting by mothers. Our oblivion about how the language we use can reinforce harmful behaviors. Fear of lawsuits. The media. Testosterone. (Yeah. I know I know.)

[Victor]

Once in a meeting of various public health care disciplines I heard a "prestigious" psychiatrist from the U of M go into a rant about why did people think that incest was necessarily an unpleasant experience for a child. Yes! I did witness that.


They used to talk like that here too, until we started putting them in jail.

And even more tragically, they excused Aboriginal men of child sexual abuse on the grounds of cultural difference. This destroyed the sense of self and the lives of many Aboriginal children.

But just recently we have awoken from this dream of the Noble Savage - we have awoken from this Romantic, anti-Enlightenment dream and sent in the Army, the Police, the Prosecutors and medical workers backed by both sides of Parliament and billions of dollars.

The Enlightenment has had three great successes - the Abolition of Institutionalised Slavery by the House of Commons in 1833, the Emancipation of Women in the Twentieth Century and the enforcing of the laws against child sexual abuse today.

Always remembering the Enlightenment has its enemies - the Romantic Movement and the myth of the Noble Savage, the New Age Movement and MBTI, and Islam.

The Enlightenment has given us everything we value in the Modern World but at the cost of some stress which we try to relieve by turning back to the irrational.

This is why we find it hard to resist the Romantic Movement, the New Age Movement, and why Islam is on the rise.

Each and everyone of them is irrational and anti-Enlightenment.

[SillyGoose]

I'm so sorry to hear of these things that happen and am very encouraged by all of your strength.

A tip for getting in/out of your car when it is dark out:
-as you're walking up to your car, make sure to scan underneath the car. Also make sure to peek in the backseat before getting in. Those two places are the amongst the most common but least announced places for a predator to hide.

On a news program about a year ago there was a segment that showed the reactions of little girls vs. little boys drinking heavily salted lemonade. Not one little girl made a complaint about the lemonade, but kept on drinking when it was obvious on their little faces that it was horrid. Some little girls even accepted another glass when it was offered to them.

The boys for the most part, flat out said the lemonade was not good or even proclaimed loudly how gross it was.

I can't remember what channel or program it was on, but I was hoping to find it on youtube.

[disregard]

Also, a panic button on your car keys is a handy thing to have.

You press it and the lights start flashing and the alarm goes off.

I use it to find my car sometimes. :D

[PinkPiranha]

Also, a panic button on your car keys is a handy thing to have.

You press it and the lights start flashing and the alarm goes off.

I use it to find my car sometimes. :D


I saw something of the sort advertised for what, BMW? Anyone remember? A heartbeat detector alerting you to someone hiding in your car.

lol @ locater function... that's using the ol' noodle! :D

[Anja]

So. A lull.

Anybody want to take this into the way we use language to perpetuate the problem posited?

[Victor]

So. A lull.

Anybody want to take this into the way we use language to perpetuate the problem posited?

Boyfriends have many uses.

One is as an unpaid bodyguard.

[PinkPiranha]

So. A lull.

Anybody want to take this into the way we use language to perpetuate the problem posited?

"Play nice" language is the worst.

There was this guy who was stalking me and my sister, and I mean stalking us across town. He'd follow our car and sometimes pop up in places we were totally not expecting him. I was taught to be polite but firm (which is good form generally), but this guy was just crowding us and acting creepy and would NOT go away. One night, me, my sis and a bunch of our guy friends (including a guy J was dating) were at a pool hall, and Stalker Guy came in, stood at the front of the room. I spotted him before he spotted us and blanched. He turned, saw us, and waved in this pointed way like "You have to acknowledge me. I know where you are and I can find you." J's boyfriend almost had at him, but Stalker Guy left immediately. We had to be walked out to our car that night, and we still didn't feel safe. If he could find us there, he could find our house easily. He lived nearby.

Finally, he showed up on our porch AGAIN - my mom and my sister had each told him off at separate points - and we were in the middle of a family argument. He showed up, I saw him on the porch, I stomped out outside and hissed, "What the **** do you want?!" He stood there in silence, began to stammer something, and I told him to get the **** out. TWICE. He looked at me like I was being rude. The irony. I mean, I was practically in his face growling and standing my hackles up. It was so primal, and HATED him.

I would laugh if it hadn't been so awful. I actually beat myself up over being rude after that exchange! Can you believe that? He deserved a boot to the head and got off easy, and I was still automatically upset with MYSELF for being so acid.

[Anja]

Thanks, Pink.

I'm thinking in a different dirrection. Your story speaks loudly to the fear "nice" people have about using big guns when they are called for.

Off to swim and ponder.

I'd someday like to talk about what I mentioned - street talk being full of casual sexual brutalities. And how that may be lowering peoples' resistence to brutal acts.

Maybe a separate thread is called for?

Later.

[Algora J]

"Play nice" language is the worst.

There was this guy who was stalking me and my sister, and I mean stalking us across town. He'd follow our car and sometimes pop up in places we were totally not expecting him. I was taught to be polite but firm (which is good form generally), but this guy was just crowding us and acting creepy and would NOT go away. One night, me, my sis and a bunch of our guy friends (including a guy J was dating) were at a pool hall, and Stalker Guy came in, stood at the front of the room. I spotted him before he spotted us and blanched. He turned, saw us, and waved in this pointed way like "You have to acknowledge me. I know where you are and I can find you." J's boyfriend almost had at him, but Stalker Guy left immediately. We had to be walked out to our car that night, and we still didn't feel safe. If he could find us there, he could find our house easily. He lived nearby.

Finally, he showed up on our porch AGAIN - my mom and my sister had each told him off at separate points - and we were in the middle of a family argument. He showed up, I saw him on the porch, I stomped out outside and hissed, "What the **** do you want?!" He stood there in silence, began to stammer something, and I told him to get the **** out. TWICE. He looked at me like I was being rude. The irony. I mean, I was practically in his face growling and standing my hackles up. It was so primal, and HATED him.

I would laugh if it hadn't been so awful. I actually beat myself up over being rude after that exchange! Can you believe that? He deserved a boot to the head and got off easy, and I was still automatically upset with MYSELF for being so acid.

Hmmmm. You sound like a celebrity or something being stalked by the paparazzi. ;)

[PinkPiranha]

Hmmmm. You sound like a celebrity or something being stalked by the paparazzi. ;)

:D I had my little Zsa Zsa Gabor fist raised and waiting to punch!

That guy also showed up at my place of employment. I was working in the back at a deli, in charge of the delivery staff. Sis was out front with our bf Athena. Stalker Dude showed up, Athena took one look at him, shoved Sis off behind her and proceeded to chew him out. Never tick off an ENTJ.

[LostInNerSpace]

GABRIELLE UNION - RAPE VICTIM UNION URGES WOMEN TO TRUST THEIR INSTINCTS (http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/article/rape%20victim%20union%20urges%20women%20to%20trust %20their%20instincts_1009049)


Women should take up self-defense. I do Kung Fu. There are some women there who do it too. It really does build inner strength. I used to be a wimp. Four years of Kung Fu has given me the inner strength to push back with force if I feel it is necessary. I very rarely have to do that, but sometimes I will when someone is acting like a moron and tries take advantage of my good nature. It never even gets physical, it doesn't have to.

Also worth considering a stun gun. You can get them shaped like cellphones these days. But be careful. You don't want to end up in the situation where an attacker takes if off you. That's why self-defense is worth considering.

[PinkPiranha]

Self-defense classes are something Sis and I have been discussing for some time.

[LostInNerSpace]

Self-defense classes are something Sis and I have been discussing for some time.

I've been doing Shaolin kung fu, but it's kind of artsy. They do teach some self-defense, but I would prefer to try something a bit more technical--I want to spend much more time learning techniques. I think I will try Wing Chun next--Bruce Lee Kung Fu.

[PinkPiranha]

A friend of ours does kick-boxing which maximizes a woman's strong lower body.

[LostInNerSpace]

A friend of ours does kick-boxing which maximizes a woman's strong lower body.

Just teach women to do this and there will be no more rape:

YouTube - Very rare fight shaolin kung fu vs. Karate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMJ_b9uV1Lo)

A friend of ours does kick-boxing which maximizes a woman's strong lower body.

Yes, that would be ideal for a woman. Tae-Kwon-Do too. Your legs are your strongest muscles and women usually have excellent flexibility. But you'll have to do a heck of a lot of kicking to make it worthwhile.

[Jae Rae]

Just teach women to do this and there will be no more rape:

YouTube - Very rare fight shaolin kung fu vs. Karate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMJ_b9uV1Lo)


Fascinating. I watched the video and then another Shaolin demonstration. I'd love to be able to move that gracefully.

[sciski]

Gotta say, Wing Chun is probably one of the best options. They teach you to maximise your force and speed and also deflect incoming attacks as opposed to meet them using force. This helps if you are smaller than your opponent. Wing Chun was also developed by a woman. :)

Also, whenever I read this thread, I feel the urge to FLY YOU AND YOUR SISTER OUT OF THERE PINK!! Argh!! *kicks your place of residence, or at least the creepy men there*

[Victor]

Thanks, Pink.

I'm thinking in a different dirrection. Your story speaks loudly to the fear "nice" people have about using big guns when they are called for.

Off to swim and ponder.

I'd someday like to talk about what I mentioned - street talk being full of casual sexual brutalities. And how that may be lowering peoples' resistence to brutal acts.

Maybe a separate thread is called for?

Later.

Yes, my dear sister, was stopped coming home at night in the dark by rapist. She immediately resisted and threatened to smash his face with a milk bottle and he ran off. She returned home shaken but safe because she resisted.

I have also been stopped by a criminal when I was alone. It was apparent to me that he was skilled in immediately taking control of his victim. And my first impulse was to be polite and go along with him. But I resisted my impulse and didn't let him control my feelings or actions. And I escaped.

What struck me was how skilled he was in provoking and controlling my feelings. In fact he used my feelings against me. So it was by restraining my ordinary natural feelings that allowed me to remain in control.

My criminal was emotionally intelligent in this situation. However the mark of emotional intelligence is restraint. So it turned out that I was more emotionally intelligent than my attacker.

Also I have been taught to box so I have been trained to keep my eyes open when I am being hit in the face.

So I would suggest, for both men and women, that they learn physical self defence.

And I would even more strongly suggest that we learn emotional intelligence by learning emotional restraint.

Also emotional intelligence can also be learnt by not letting anyone put you into a trance against your will. For this is what the attacker will do - he or she will use induction techniques to put you in a trance so they can control you.

Unfortunately MBTI also uses induction techniques, such as jargon, to put you in a trance. So MBTI trains us to enter a particular type of trance, let's call it the MBTI trance. This is a similar technique used by other cults - it distracts the mind with repetitive jargon so that a trance may be induced.

And unfortunately most members here use MBTI to emotionally manipulate others. And the sad truth is that those who manipulate are easily manipulated themselves.

And last but not least, the casual sexual brutalities of the street also induce a trance, which makes us easier to control by those who wish to use us for their own purposes.

Hmmmm. You sound like a celebrity or something being stalked by the paparazzi. ;)

This is a good example of blaming the victim.

So the right thing to do is to resist the suggestion of Algora J.

And if I were a moderator, I would ban him or her for a period to make it plain that we will resist.

[helen]

Unfortunately MBTI also uses induction techniques, such as jargon, to put you in a trance. So MBTI trains us to enter a particular type of trance, let's call it the MBTI trance. This is a similar technique used by other cults - it distracts the mind with repetitive jargon so that a trance may be induced.

And unfortunately most members here use MBTI to emotionally manipulate others. And the sad truth is that those who manipulate are easily manipulated themselves.

Like, so what do you mean by this? How might MBTI be used to manipulate others? What would an "MBTI trance" look like?

Just curious.

[Algora J]

Stalker Dude showed up, Athena took one look at him, shoved Sis off behind her and proceeded to chew him out. Never tick off an ENTJ.

Agreed..or at least an ENTJ who has seniority! Of course, I always think male ENTJs are sort of cute when they're angry.

Watching very composed and calm men suddenly become enraged at something is sort of humorously sexy at times. :)

[Victor]

Like, so what do you mean by this? How might MBTI be used to manipulate others? What would an "MBTI trance" look like?

Just curious.

If you ask open ended questions, it gives the impression you might be interested in the reply.

But if you ask closed questions, it looks like you want to be controlling and manipulative.

And you have asked closed questions above.

Of course you don't have to ask questions at all, you can just say what you think - but that would make you vulnerable.

And to protect your vulnerability, you try to control me with closed questions.

And you hide your intention behind, "Just curious".

I find it hard to believe you are motivated by simple curiosity.

Curiosity, they say, killed the cat. Perhaps the cat's name is Victor.

But look to your left - I am not a cat, I am a panther.

Perhaps you have just made a mistake, if so, do tell me your feelings on the matter - I would be delighted to listen.

[Anja]

*Ducks behind bush to watch the big puddy-tat ferociously pounce on the leaves blowing past.*

[Victor]

*Ducks behind bush to watch the big puddy-tat ferociously pounce on the leaves blowing past.*

Just practising.

Today the leaves, tomorrow Anja.

[Dwigie]

Very interesting thread. Actually I was the nastiest child according to my mother but it toned down. The problem with me is that I looked like a sixteen year old when I was in 7th grade, and always went home alone, didn't talk about things like this to my mother.
I've seen a man masturbate publicly at the age of 13.
I've been gropped by a man at the age 12, I was frozen by terror but just walked away...
People would oggle at me in pools all the time with no shame, following me around,disgusting.
Some men make strange comments and start following me from time to time but I quickly get the f out of there nowadays.The most memorable one said he wanted to get to know me and proceeded in stalking me in the subway car, I told him it was my stop, left the car and crawled back in a while later when everyone was coming out and in. Luckily he didn't catch me.
I've had way too many people trying to stalk me at a young age since I looked older than I was but didn't have the common sense or awareness necessary at 11-12. Plus the fact that the place I lived in was much safer did not help prepare me.
I don't acknowledge them nowadays but the "hollering" continues.I cover myself up neatly nowadays in order to stop these kind of unfortunate adventures. It's quite recurrent, I think it also has something to do with the fact that it is okay for men to just try and "hook up" ,get people's numbers off the street.
example:
"hey,oh shit girl...hmm..."*starts following for entire block"excuse me, excuse me? I'm trying to get to know you.(It may take time for them to give up depending on the "sanity")
but for some it's just a nasty look and down the deli I go hiding.

[LadyJaye]

"hey,oh shit girl...hmm..."*starts following for entire block"excuse me, excuse me? I'm trying to get to know you.(It may take time for them to give up depending on the "sanity")
but for some it's just a nasty look and down the deli I go hiding.

When I was in my early teens, that sort of behavior used to intimidate me into a form of powerless politeness. Being heckled by strangers always took me off- guard, because it was so blatant and offensive. But as I got older, I realized my best bet was to make an even bigger scene than they were creating, because essentially, they're trying to intimidate you into submission and silence, so they remain in power and you remain their victim. Not that I'm Wonder Woman or anything, but seriously, most men who try that mess on you are banking on you not reacting - they don't seriously believe that their atrocious behavior will actually result in them getting a date or a phone number out of you. It's designed to victimize. So I started returning their aggression, and most of them backed off.

[Dwigie]

When I was in my early teens, that sort of behavior used to intimidate me into a form of powerless politeness. Being heckled by strangers always took me off- guard, because it was so blatant and offensive. But as I got older, I realized my best bet was to make an even bigger scene than they were creating, because essentially, they're trying to intimidate you into submission and silence, so they remain in power and you remain their victim. Not that I'm Wonder Woman or anything, but seriously, most men who try that mess on you are banking on you not reacting - they don't seriously believe that their atrocious behavior will actually result in them getting a date or a phone number out of you. It's designed to victimize. So I started returning their aggression, and most of them backed off.

I hate that, such a waste of people's time. (I have a few who really believed so actually:shock:, it's true most of them don't but a few really really believe they will and literally stalk you.)

[LadyJaye]

I hate that, such a waste of people's time. (I have a few who really believed so actually:shock:, it's true most of them don't but a few really really believe they will and literally stalk you.)

Wow, that really concerns me for you. Do you have someone who can walk with you? Or perhaps a giant can of military grade mace?

[Jack Flak]

When I was in my early teens, that sort of behavior used to intimidate me into a form of powerless politeness. Being heckled by strangers always took me off- guard, because it was so blatant and offensive. But as I got older, I realized my best bet was to make an even bigger scene than they were creating, because essentially, they're trying to intimidate you into submission and silence, so they remain in power and you remain their victim. Not that I'm Wonder Woman or anything, but seriously, most men who try that mess on you are banking on you not reacting - they don't seriously believe that their atrocious behavior will actually result in them getting a date or a phone number out of you. It's designed to victimize. So I started returning their aggression, and most of them backed off.
Makes sense to me. Although I've known guys who do "act the fool" sometimes but are otherwise utterly respectful of females. It's probably more male bonding/humor in these cases, i.e. a carful of guys and one honks the horn--Often not the driver.

[Jack Flak]

Self-defense classes are something Sis and I have been discussing for some time.
They just put this back on the market: The Gerber Store - outdoor hunting and fishing knives and tools (http://www.gerberstore.com/index.php?xpage=itempage&xid=946)

[LadyJaye]

Makes sense to me. Although I've known guys who do "act the fool" sometimes but are otherwise utterly respectful of females. It's probably more male bonding/humor in these cases, i.e. a carful of guys and one honks the horn--Often not the driver.

Oh hey, I don't mind guys being silly and shouting fresh things at me. Most of the time , it's pretty funny, and fairly clear that they're just being playful. What enrages me is the menacing behavior.

[LadyJaye]

They just put this back on the market: The Gerber Store - outdoor hunting and fishing knives and tools (http://www.gerberstore.com/index.php?xpage=itempage&xid=946)

Pink and I have several Hibben throwing knives. They're very well made, but kinda expensive.

[disregard]

I wouldn't want a knife like that in my vicinity if someone was attacking me.

[LadyJaye]

I wouldn't want a knife like that in my vicinity if someone was attacking me.

Knives give me the creeps, personally. I see them as something that could be used against me.

[Jack Flak]

I wouldn't want a knife like that in my vicinity if someone was attacking me.
Well guns are called "the great equalizer," meaning that it doesn't matter if you're 100 pounds or 250. But if you know what you're doing with a knife like that, it could come close. Note: I'm not female, but I'd rather fight back and die than be helplessly assaulted at whim.

[disregard]

I would rather fight back too.. without the risk of being stabbed repeatedly.

[PinkPiranha]

I would rather fight back too.. without the risk of being stabbed repeatedly.

This is why I'm for the pocket pitbull. So what if it sprays foam and occasionally locks its jaws around your car keys? It more than makes up for those things by destroying your enemy one kneecap at a time.

Makes you wish switchblades were legal again.

[helen]

If you ask open ended questions, it gives the impression you might be interested in the reply.

But if you ask closed questions, it looks like you want to be controlling and manipulative.

And you have asked closed questions above.

Of course you don't have to ask questions at all, you can just say what you think - but that would make you vulnerable.

And to protect your vulnerability, you try to control me with closed questions.

And you hide your intention behind, "Just curious".

I find it hard to believe you are motivated by simple curiosity.

Curiosity, they say, killed the cat. Perhaps the cat's name is Victor.

But look to your left - I am not a cat, I am a panther.

Perhaps you have just made a mistake, if so, do tell me your feelings on the matter - I would be delighted to listen.

:huh:

I was literally just curious. Sorry if it came across as confrontational or argumentative. Lately I've been suspicious of the way some people use MBTI, but it's vague and hard to put my finger on, so when I read what you had written I wondered if you were sensing something similar to what I was and if you could explain it.

I'm not really sure what you mean by open vs closed questions. I tried to ask specific questions rather than vague ones, because I am interested in obtaining answers to specific questions, not in issuing a vague invitation to ramble vaguely.

But this is all utterly unrelated to the OP. Sorry, Pink!

[Victor]

:huh:

I was literally just curious. Sorry if it came across as confrontational or argumentative. Lately I've been suspicious of the way some people use MBTI, but it's vague and hard to put my finger on, so when I read what you had written I wondered if you were sensing something similar to what I was and if you could explain it.

I'm not really sure what you mean by open vs closed questions. I tried to ask specific questions rather than vague ones, because I am interested in obtaining answers to specific questions, not in issuing a vague invitation to ramble vaguely.

But this is all utterly unrelated to the OP. Sorry, Pink!

Thanks for your reply Helen.

You may well have been literally, "just curious", however the phase is a common phrase perhaps with metaphorical overtones. And it seemed to me that you were dismissing your feelings by saying that you were just curious in the same way housewives dismiss themselves by saying they are just housewives.

And I am quite happy for you to be confrontational and argumentative with me - it may be a way for you express and discover your feelings.

And it is interesting how we use MBTI. I would like us to deepen our understanding of how we use MBTI. Part of that is understanding the history of MBTI and how it relates to similar movements.

It is very interesting that you find it hard to put your finger on your suspicions. So perhaps you might like to handle your suspicions and show them to us.

Perhaps you might like to feel your suspicions, bring them into your conscious mind and share them with us.

Your suspicions do sound interesting.

[Cality]

I was tought all my childhood to distrust any strangers and how to recognise the signs for a dangerous person. I never had any issues like this because I flew before each time.
I think, that's one big cultural difference between french and americans : americans trust untill proven wrong, french distrust until proven wrong. The consequences are that american are welcoming and warm to strangers and french are reserved and not open at first (and therefore appear rude, even though it's not rudeness).

[Anja]

Do you still have sexual harrassment on the streets in France, Cality? Or has political correctness put a damper on that universal sport?

If so, how do you handle it?

I'm thinking about the sort of interactions I've had on the streets of Mexico and how it felt different to me than the same kind of thing here in the States.

[Cality]

What kind of harassment? I don't really feel harassed when I walk through the streets. Maybe I just pay attention to where I go and when it happens, it's usually young occupationsless guys who say "hey, you're pretty" as they say to any thing that looks a little feminine (or when homeless just bet for money).
When it ever happens, I just ignore them, even if they insist. I try to walk assured and not to look unsure or scared. I make my face look extremly cold and unfriendly. It works so far. Some of my friend say it's better to say hi in this case, because the guys are supposed to do less harm to you if you are polite. I never managed to. I am not harassed, maybe slightly more when I am in Paris... not too much though. Why? Have you or friends been harassed here in France? I was more harassed in Belgium.

[Uytuun]

I was more harassed in Belgium

Wallonia, Brussels or Flanders?

I have to say I feel quite safe here (Flanders) and most of the places I've gone to in Europe I've felt pretty safe as well, even when we were out with a bunch of girls in capitals or such. I don't know what your treshold is for safe, but I don't consider a guy whistling at me or a bunch of drunk guys trying to make conversation sexual harassment, at least not automatically. If they leave me alone when I indicate I'm not interested, then that's fine.

I'm not overly polite and will simply go away when a random guy tries to chat me up and I don't feel good about it, I've hit guys that touched me while dancing (sometimes even when they did so accidentally - that's a risk you take) or left/declined when they wanted to dance with me and I didn't (sounds like the normal thing to do, but it isn't). This is not a very common behaviour here, though, and it can get you funny looks. When I feel endangered, I don't hesitate to lash out like a cat.

agency :)

I easily trust people when I intuit them as being alright, though, and will follow them through foreign cities in the middle of the night.

[LadyJaye]

I will agree that it's probably a great deal more dangerous in the US than in many parts of Europe for women in general. But, when I was in school in Ireland, I got attacked twice on the bus on my way home. The only difference was that they were used to girls not fighting back, and I punched the daylights out of those guys. Even scarier because I'm a small person, but that's probably why they chose me.

[Anja]

What kind of harassment? I don't really feel harassed when I walk through the streets. Maybe I just pay attention to where I go and when it happens, it's usually young occupationsless guys who say "hey, you're pretty" as they say to any thing that looks a little feminine (or when homeless just bet for money).
When it ever happens, I just ignore them, even if they insist. I try to walk assured and not to look unsure or scared. I make my face look extremly cold and unfriendly. It works so far. Some of my friend say it's better to say hi in this case, because the guys are supposed to do less harm to you if you are polite. I never managed to. I am not harassed, maybe slightly more when I am in Paris... not too much though. Why? Have you or friends been harassed here in France? I was more harassed in Belgium.

Thanks for answering my question, Cality. I think you provided some good tips for women. Looking assured, unfriendly.

I hadn't meant to single France out. I saw your location and wondered how things were there for women in public.

In Mexico those kinds of incidents increased for me if my husband wasn't with me. I was quite surprised by it because in the area I live that kind of cat-calling has nearly been eliminated. There have been a few times I've actually been touched on the street there.

But the intention truly did seem more festive and obligatory on the men's part than it has for me in the States. Not to excuse it, because I don't care for that kind of attention. Yet it seemed more friendly in intent than it does here.

[Anja]

More. And that's goes back to my thoughts about how we use language.

The implied threat that exists when a man makes comments about one's body.

I'm in thought of the implied sense of ownership that accompanies, say, the expression, "I'd have a piece of that."

As though a woman's body is offered simply by appearing in public.

And the threat is not an offer of making love as much as it is in taking something away for himself.

[LostInNerSpace]

There are some great pressure points you can use to cause people pain without too much effort. If I have time later I'll draw diagrams. I saw a woman wearing a hooded sweatshirt the other day. It's pretty safe around here, but still a good idea.

[helen]

Thanks for your reply Helen.

You may well have been literally, "just curious", however the phase is a common phrase perhaps with metaphorical overtones. And it seemed to me that you were dismissing your feelings by saying that you were just curious in the same way housewives dismiss themselves by saying they are just housewives.

And I am quite happy for you to be confrontational and argumentative with me - it may be a way for you express and discover your feelings.

And it is interesting how we use MBTI. I would like us to deepen our understanding of how we use MBTI. Part of that is understanding the history of MBTI and how it relates to similar movements.

It is very interesting that you find it hard to put your finger on your suspicions. So perhaps you might like to handle your suspicions and show them to us.

Perhaps you might like to feel your suspicions, bring them into your conscious mind and share them with us.

Your suspicions do sound interesting.

Hi Victor, just wanted to say thank you for the reply (which I read through several times) and for trying to help me validate rather than dismiss my feelings/suspicions. You made me think more deeply, and I appreciate that. I'll keep kicking my thoughts around in my head, and who knows, if they form into anything coherent maybe I'll share them in a new thread. :)

[LostInNerSpace]

There are some great pressure points you can use to cause people pain without too much effort. If I have time later I'll draw diagrams.

http://www.maryamwebster.com/uploads/Image/accupointmodel.gif

Best pressure points for self-defense:

- See where is says "Side of eye socket GB1". Poke your finger in there, or into the other side of the eye socket. The other side is actually more painful.

- Apply pressure to the point marked "Under Eye Socket ST1"

- Apply pressure with your thumb or finger to a point just above the point marked "Thymus". You need to practice on someone to find the right spot. You can get an attacker off balance with relatively minimal effort with that point. Then aim for his manhood with you knee.

- Applying pressure under the arm pits will cause pain.

- See the point that says chin. Follow the white arrow until the point where it leaves her face. Try to feel for the bone at that point on your face. Apply pressure with your thumb to the point behind your cheek bone at that point.

- If you can punch, you can hit any of the other points on the body.

- You can dig your nails into the points on the hand.

:D

[Kyrielle]

Excellent stuff Lost. Also, the Adam's Apple/trachea/right under the chin is a good point to place a quick jab with your fingers. Or you can punch it. Either way it'll cause a lot of pain and coughing.

[booyalab]

I will agree that it's probably a great deal more dangerous in the US than in many parts of Europe for women in general..

Wasn't there a UN report a few years ago that determined Scotland was the most violent country in the world, followed closely by England and Wales? And I think Eastern Europe is supposed to be at least as dangerous as any of the most violent places in the US. If you equate the US only with the most densely populated cities, sure it's probably more dangerous than Europe in general, since you wouldn't be equating Europe with it's most populated cities. But the vast overlooked majority of the US is rural, small towns/cities, suburbs and pretty safe.

[PinkPiranha]

Wasn't there a UN report a few years ago that determined Scotland was the most violent country in the world, followed closely by England and Wales? And I think Eastern Europe is supposed to be at least as dangerous as any of the most violent places in the US. If you equate the US only with the most densely populated cities, sure it's probably more dangerous than Europe in general, since you wouldn't be equating Europe with it's most populated cities. But the vast overlooked majority of the US is rural, small towns/cities, suburbs and pretty safe.

:shock: Very interesting. I hadn't heard that.

[booyalab]

BBC NEWS | Scotland | Scotland worst for violence - UN (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm)

I just found an article about it. It does say DEVELOPED world, which means at least you won't find any warnings on travel sites about the possibility of visitors getting shot seconds after they get off the plane.

Anyway, as per the OP, I've been told I'm not cautious enough. But not because I'm nice. I've just never feel worried about walking around by myself at night. In fact, I find it calming.
But even though I might be overconfident about the improbability of dangerous situations. I'm still cynical with individuals who seem to be increasing the odds of danger before my eyes. For example, one night walking in a residential area of Minneapolis when I was about 20, some guy drove up into a driveway, blocking my path, and asked me (with a curiously not-sad demeanor) if I had seen his lost dog and if I wanted to see a picture of it. He didn't put the picture up to the window, so I couldn't confirm there was one, he wanted me to trust that it was in his lap or something. Yeah, didn't fall for that one. Are there seriously women who would?

[WobblyStilettos]

Wasn't there a UN report a few years ago that determined Scotland was the most violent country in the world, followed closely by England and Wales?

Ah, those good ol' scots :) and London is often just plain scary, I much prefer to be in a good size group including some big tough looking people when I go, I would never go on my own, even if I went in the middle of the day and stuck to the nicer parts

[PinkPiranha]

BBC NEWS | Scotland | Scotland worst for violence - UN (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4257966.stm)

I just found an article about it. It does say DEVELOPED world, which means at least you won't find any warnings on travel sites about the possibility of visitors getting shot seconds after they get off the plane.

Anyway, as per the OP, I've been told I'm not cautious enough. But not because I'm nice. I've just never feel worried about walking around by myself at night. In fact, I find it calming.
But even though I might be overconfident about the improbability of dangerous situations. I'm still cynical with individuals who seem to be increasing the odds of danger before my eyes. For example, one night walking in a residential area of Minneapolis when I was about 20, some guy drove up into a driveway, blocking my path, and asked me (with a curiously not-sad demeanor) if I had seen his lost dog and if I wanted to see a picture of it. He didn't put the picture up to the window, so I couldn't confirm there was one, he wanted me to trust that it was in his lap or something. Yeah, didn't fall for that one. Are there seriously women who would?

Wow, that pervert wasn't even creative.

[Jack Flak]

RE: BRITISH ISLES ARE VIOLENT

:shock: Very interesting. I hadn't heard that.
Take a look at my Doug Stanhope America vs. UK video in the Funny Video thread. There be EXPLICIT language.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/309307-post365.html

[LostInNerSpace]

Excellent stuff Lost. Also, the Adam's Apple/trachea/right under the chin is a good point to place a quick jab with your fingers. Or you can punch it. Either way it'll cause a lot of pain and coughing.

Or death. It takes just 4lbs of pressure to crush someone's trachea. I could show you some other death points, but death may be frowned upon in some places.

An uppercut between the chin and throat is quite painful as well.

[Jack Flak]

An uppercut between the chin and throat is quite painful as well.
I agree esp. as opposed to an uppercut between the bicep and forearm, for example.

[Kyrielle]

Or death. It takes just 4lbs of pressure to crush someone's trachea. I could show you some other death points, but it might be illegal to kill people in some localities.

An uppercut between the chin and throat is quite painful as well.

Huh, I did not know that. Just knew it hurt.

[Viv]

When I was young, I was in a situation where I had to play along/defend myself. The best thing I ever learned was to aim at his nuts and kick really hard.. several times. Lastly, kick his face when he's on the ground.

I'm a pretty good judge of character. So when the situation calls for it, I will go with my gut and if put in danger, I'd find ways to self-defend myself. My friend who was in the marines taught me some useful stuff. But, that's why, sometimes, when I go out somewhere, I know I can really rely on my pointy shoes..

Have I ever been ridiculed for not playing along? Yes.. mainly from clueless peers who live sheltered lives. I have the street smarts in me..