Olympics: Gymnastics Age Debate

[Jennifer]

Interesting arguments over the age of a member of the Chinese gymnastic team, due to discrepancies in chinese news articles where the ages were later changed.

I saw the girl (He Kexin) when she fell on Sunday. We were watching her on the big-screen at a local sports bar, so we didn't miss anything. It was agonizing. Some a-hole hicks at the next table were heckling her for slipping off the bars. I was furious. I'm an American, sure; but I'm also a parent, and I could see the look on her face when she went down. That experience for her was "psychological scarring" material, and I came within an inch of leaning over the back of the booth and giving these jokers a piece of my mind. (Aside from the other aspects of it -- they being adults, she being a little kid; they being fat slobs, her being an Olympic quality athlete; and so on.)

Now there's an ongoing argument (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news;_ylt=Apjx7FyUj8VSopb294x578OdaJh4?slug=ap-gym--underagechinese&prov=ap&type=lgns)over whether or not she was only 13 (or perhaps 14).

China of course now seems to have produced paperwork supporting her being 16. So I can't say for sure either way. There's no way to prove anything, although it was convenient that she merely had to be 16 during the year she competed, and her birthday is now listed as Jan 1, 1992 -- doh! (Can't the Chinese be craftier than this? Like picking a "random" date?)

But I can honestly say when she fell, the girl I saw there, the look on her face, and her emotional coping mechanisms were not the face of a girl in her late teens. This was before I had realized there was an age requirement... and I assumed she was around -12- based on her response to her terrible failure. That's around the age of my kids. My 13-year-old son would have had a different, more mature response. My 10-year-old daughter's response would have been much more similar to He Kexin's.

The FineLines and I even had a conversation about it, speculating on her age, before we knew it was being debated.

Sigh. Always has to be SOME sort of drama going on.

[scantilyclad]

As soon as i saw this girls i immediately thought she couldn't be any older than 12, and my friends and i debated about it for awhile in my living room. Then we heard them say that the age requirement was 16, and i was baffled. I felt the same way you do about her fall, and the way she reacted, she seemed much more immature than the other girls. I'm just going to assume that she is 16 years old, looks young and is a bit immature, since i can't prove that she is actually 12,13, 14 whatever.

[sassafrassquatch]

pwned!...possibly...

David Flumenbaum: Scandal of the Ages: Documents Reveal Underage Chinese Gymnast (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-flumenbaum/scandal-of-the-ages-docum_b_118842.html)

[Jennifer]

I love how her birthday was still January 1.
Even that sounds fake.

Our daughter was adopted from China. Her "official" birthday is 5/5. But they had no idea what date it was since she was abandoned on the streets at a young age, so they just assigned her one. They tend to assign dates with national significance.

[Little Linguist]

Oh, man...I don't know what is lower....

a) Lowering a child's age to compete and put pressure on her when she *totally* is not ready.

b) Americans laughing at her because she fell.

Crap!!!! I know it's China. I know we're all freaking out because of their human rights problems etc. But c'mon folks.

That's just evooooo...:huh:

[Jack Flak]

It was pretty god damned obvious the first day of competition that the youngest of the gymnasts was closer to 12 than 16.

[booyalab]

It was pretty god damned obvious the first day of competition that the youngest of the gymnasts was closer to 12 than 16.

kthx, pedobear

[runvardh]

Last I heard, they tend to not care about that stuff over in that part of the world. Unless the family keeps accurate reccords a kid's age falls through the cracks and the just assume the child is how old the think she is or needs to be. Some family of a friend of a friend is having that entertainment with a cousin brought in from Thailand. Right now her age is being debated as being between 12 and 19. How sad is that?

[MacGuffin]

What's wrong at laughing at Olympic athletes?

If you are good enough to be one, you should be able to handle getting laughed at.

If you aren't old enough to handle being laughed at, you shouldn't be allowed to compete.

Anyway, this is a prime example of why women's athletics will never be the equal of men's athletics. No world-class male athlete in any sport gets his ass handed to him by 12 year old boys.

[Jennifer]

What's wrong at laughing at Olympic athletes? If you are good enough to be one, you should be able to handle getting laughed at. If you aren't old enough to handle being laughed at, you shouldn't be allowed to compete.

Nothing's wrong with laughing.

But how they did it and in what context to me showed them to be real assholes. I probably wouldn't be very impressed with how they treat the women in their lives... at least, if they have any other females in their lives other than the canine variety.

Or the kids. These guys were total pr*cks.

Anyway, this is a prime example of why women's athletics will never be the equal of men's athletics. No world-class male athlete in any sport gets his ass handed to him by 12 year old boys.

lol, dude, she could hand you YOUR ass five times over!

[MacGuffin]

lol, dude, she could hand you YOUR ass five times over!
I challenge her to basketball!

[Hmm]

Bela Karoyli believes that the Chinese government, who produces the documents showing their age, can and would easily falsify those documents.

[Jennifer]

I challenge her to basketball!

I'm still feeling like she'd hand your ass. (If she had a ladder to climb high enough to get a grip on it.)

Bela Karoyli believes that the Chinese government, who produces the documents showing their age, can and would easily falsify those documents.

But did they have the motive? Hmmmm!!!!!!
*melodramatic music*

[Hmm]

But did they have the motive? Hmmmm!!!!!!
*melodramatic music*

And if they did, will the U.S. start doing the same???

Tune into the 2012 Summer Olympics to find out!!

*cue melodramatic music. Dun dun duuunn*

[Zergling]

What exactly is the advantage of having the gymnasts younger?

[Geoff]

What exactly is the advantage of having the gymnasts younger?

All that supple bendiness that disappears as someone turns into a more muscly weighty adult.

[Jack Flak]

^Weight is the number one thing. Comaneci did her best at 14 when that was the requirement. Watch some youtube of that, it's pretty awesome.

[Hmm]

What exactly is the advantage of having the gymnasts younger?

Mostly fearlessness, because they don't realize what it all means or what good or bad things could possible happen. They don't understand or feel pressure either. It's just another competition to them and they just do what the adult tell them to do.

[Jae Rae]

No hips.

BTW, did anyone see the Chinese young woman who fell on her knees after her vault and still managed to get a medal?

[Jennifer]

16. *cough cough*
She's 16.
*cough*

Yes. Sure. So obviously 16.

http://f3.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_oly_experts__3/ept_sports_oly_experts-387509374-1219085034.jpg?ymrb13_CkOpbX8EM

[Jack Flak]

Yiang Jing Jang or whatever she's called (far right) has to be at LEAST 22.

[EffEmDoubleyou]

I say cut 'em in half and count the rings. Cheating bastards.

[CzeCze]

16. *cough cough*
She's 16.
*cough*

Yes. Sure. So obviously 16.

http://f3.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_oly_experts__3/ept_sports_oly_experts-387509374-1219085034.jpg?ymrb13_CkOpbX8EM

OMG.

I'm sorry, just for purely selfish reasons I was on the side of the Chinese for this (even though the Chinese audience such poor sportsman during the Archery finals) but OMG.

And - hilarious laughter at the way the American gymanst is staring daggers at her.

All that said -- why is there even if an age minimum? I mean, honestly, do people think it's *easier* for an 11 year old to win a gold medal than a 16 year old?

I'm sure others have already speculated and even posted articles or quoted studies, but I think the age minimum was more for the protection of children and to stop truly Dickensian methods of exploiting kids to win national pride than to stop any 'unfair advantage' and under 16 year old might have. And put some kind of sane curb on the grueling push for child athletes to get a medal before their merciless retirement age of 22 kicks in.

In terms of athletic ability and performance, the youngin' deserves the gold.

For the sake of keeping children from being exploited and made miserable to live out Olympic dreams, perhaps the EOC or IOC or whatever it's called -- can try harder to enforce its rules.

I don't think that highly of the Olympic organization at all so :shrug: no surprised.

[Jack Flak]

OMG......
Are you in the know as to what transpired before this podium scene? Liukin had the same score as Hexin but was placed 2nd due to a really silly tiebreaking rule. She should have had a higher score to begin with. /subjective

And it's not that the rule makes sense, I don't even agree with it, but IT IS IN PLACE and the Americans follow it but the Chinese do not.

[EffEmDoubleyou]

Are you in the know as to what transpired before this podium scene? Liukin had the same score as Hexin but was placed 2nd due to a really silly tiebreaking rule. She should have had a higher score to begin with. /subjective

And it's not that the rule makes sense, I don't even agree with it, but IT IS IN PLACE and the Americans follow it but the Chinese do not.

Not to mention the home cookin' the Chinese girl got when she wasn't marked off for mistakes she made. Not that I'm an expert, but the TV commentator almost had a stroke.

And true...a rule is a rule is a rule. I'm shocked at how this has been soft-pedaled as not to offend the Chinese hosts.

[Jae Rae]

Once you get weight in the hips, it's a lot harder to swing your weight over your head. Obviously easier for a girl under the age of 11 than one of 16. The point is, it's not a level field. The US, GB, France and Germany all could find talented gymnasts under 16 to win with that advantage.

Don't know what happened in archery, but the US vs. China baseball game was really nasty. A beanball was thrown at a US player's head and six other players were hit by balls. Two Chinese players and two coaches were ejected.

[VanillaCat]

Is there a video of her reaction?

[Jack Flak]

Try the NBC link I posted. The event was uneven bars, final. She was noticeably perturbed.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

What's wrong at laughing at Olympic athletes?

If you are good enough to be one, you should be able to handle getting laughed at.

If you aren't old enough to handle being laughed at, you shouldn't be allowed to compete.


Nothing's wrong with laughing.

But how they did it and in what context to me showed them to be real assholes. I probably wouldn't be very impressed with how they treat the women in their lives... at least, if they have any other females in their lives other than the canine variety.

Or the kids. These guys were total pr*cks.


They laughed at her because she was Chinese... it was dehumanizing jingoism (from what you're telling me) at its worst.


And - hilarious laughter at the way the American gymanst is staring daggers at her.

. . . .

All that said -- why is there even if an age minimum? I mean, honestly, do people think it's *easier* for an 11 year old to win a gold medal than a 16 year old?

. . . .

Firstly, Nastia won the gold, so probably doesn't care enough to stare daggers at the other girls. She's probably thinking what most of us are thinking: "16? Yeah flipping right."

Secondly, children that young are exposed to psychological and physical traumas that may irreparably damage them if they're not mature enough to handle high-level competition. It's easy to see a 13-year old whooping everyone's ass in a competition and say, why not? But we don't see the years before and after... particularly since China essentially recruits young girls and boys, locks them up in training facilities for their whole lives, and then dumps the ones who don't work out. They're left unfit for life in the real world.

[Jennifer]

...In terms of athletic ability and performance, the youngin' deserves the gold.

Well, I will agree that obviously she's highly talented. Especially to suffer a fall off the bars under international scrutiny and still remain competitive later enough to win a gold. That takes such an amazing amount of self-control especially at that age. (Which is might or might not be good psychologically. I had to be tough for my age at that time too... but it caused a lot of problems later in life.)

The audacity of the lies are what annoy me. Let's just call a spade a spade.

Firstly, Nastia won the gold, so probably doesn't care enough to stare daggers at the other girls. She's probably thinking what most of us are thinking: "16? Yeah flipping right."

Nastia won the gold in the all-around competition. She lost the gold to He Kexin on the balance beam (?), which is what we are discussing here... due to the way the tie-breaker was settled. (But like others say, yes, the rules were agreed on up-front, so... meh.)

I didn't examine everything she said, but N seemed pretty classy overall in her reactions to things. And she won the all-around gold, so that probably helped salve things a bit.

[bluebell]

I'm sure others have already speculated and even posted articles or quoted studies, but I think the age minimum was more for the protection of children and to stop truly Dickensian methods of exploiting kids to win national pride than to stop any 'unfair advantage' and under 16 year old might have.


That was my impression as well for the age requirement and I thought that was why people were making a fuss about it.

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the professional tennis circuit also has (or had) lower age limits to protect the younger players.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Nastia won the gold in the all-around competition. She lost the gold to He Kexin on the balance beam (?), which is what we are discussing here... due to the way the tie-breaker was settled. (But like others say, yes, the rules were agreed on up-front, so... meh.)

I didn't examine everything she said, but N seemed pretty classy overall in her reactions to things. And she won the all-around gold, so that probably helped salve things a bit.

my bad... didn't realize the universe of discourse.... but regardless... Nastia (sounds like a good pornstar name) can hold her head up high...

Of course, the humane concerns end up overriding this... but it would still be interesting to see what Nastia actually thought about He.... if Nastia's really a sportswoman at heart, she probably feels miffed about the lies and fraud, but also a deep respect for the athlete who beat her...

[Jennifer]

my bad... didn't realize the universe of discourse.... but regardless... Nastia (sounds like a good pornstar name) can hold her head up high...

Nastia --
Nastia Girls!
*doo doo doo doo-DOO*

Of course, the humane concerns end up overriding this... but it would still be interesting to see what Nastia actually thought about He.... if Nastia's really a sportswoman at heart, she probably feels miffed about the lies and fraud, but also a deep respect for the athlete who beat her...

N seems authentic enough, especially for 16.

At any level, even a decent person would feel cheated. But yes, they'd also see things from more than that perspective and be able to be supportive of others in their successes. I guess that's one way we tell the difference between mature and immature.

She also accomplished her personal goals with her victories, so that helped her too.

[Jack Flak]

She's 18.

[Jennifer]

She's 18.

Is that in dog years?

(Oh, wait, you meant Nastia? Sorry.)

[spirilis]

How about this-

Slashdot | Hacker Uncovers Chinese Olympic Fraud (http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/08/20/1259253.shtml)

Link to the actual article: Stryde Hax (http://strydehax.blogspot.com/)

I'll have a helping of "OWNED" with that, thank you. http://forums.maxima.org/images/smilies/owned.gif

[Jae Rae]

The audacity of the lies are what annoy me. Let's just call a spade a spade.

Nastia won the gold in the all-around competition. She lost the gold to He Kexin on the balance beam (?), which is what we are discussing here... due to the way the tie-breaker was settled. (But like others say, yes, the rules were agreed on up-front, so... meh.)

I didn't examine everything she said, but N seemed pretty classy overall in her reactions to things. And she won the all-around gold, so that probably helped salve things a bit.

She lost to Shawn Johnson on the balance beam. We saw it last night; both Americans were superb. The Chinese girl got a bronze; again the scoring for her having bobbled was generous. The other two made no mistakes.

More outrageous judging on the vault where the Chinese gymnast fell on her knees, went out of bounds and made other mistakes and still knocked Alicia Sacramone (she needs a blessing) off the podium.

[MacGuffin]

Gymnastics, like most performance arts, is susceptible to fraud in a way real sports aren't.

[PinkPiranha]

How about this-

Slashdot | Hacker Uncovers Chinese Olympic Fraud (http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/08/20/1259253.shtml)

Link to the actual article: Stryde Hax (http://strydehax.blogspot.com/)

I'll have a helping of "OWNED" with that, thank you. http://forums.maxima.org/images/smilies/owned.gif

Wow. That guy is amazing.

[Tallulah]

LOL, I love that the guy thought to have everyone else to a screenshot on their own searches, too. I doubt China will have to answer for this, though.

[Jack Flak]

Bob Costas just told me (rerun ithink) that up to three Chinese Gymnasts could be stripped of their medals. Depends on the investigation results. If so, the USA could get the team gold and Liukin gold for uneven bars.