Socionics

[edcoaching]

Several members have mentioned socionics as a preferred instrument to the MBTI. I really know what the MBTI as a self-reporting instrument does/doesn't do so I'd like this thread to only discuss socionics.

The online version, both forward and reverse modes, typed me accurately, but I found the descriptions to be quite trivial and stereotypical. INFps are good at matching clothing and accessories? I touch people's hands while talking? The pieces on head/body shape hearkened right back to 19th century "science" about head shape and intelligence used to foster racism.

What are you seeing that is useful/accurate? And, given the vocabulary and time it would take someone without the typically high vocab level of MBTIc users, is it really a viable option? I doubt it works validly at the 8th grade reading level like the real MBTi...

[edcoaching]

If you haven't taken their assessment, view it at

http://www.socionics.com/sta/sta-1-r.html?0:::

Take both the normal and reverse modes.

[MerkW]

That website is to be avoided. It is not representative of the theory of socionics on a whole. If you want real socionics, I suggest you go to wikisocion.

[Jack Flak]

I've never thought the descriptions at socionics.com were more than vaguely interesting, but the intertype relations were very accurate.

[proteanmix]

I prefer their description of Fe (extroverted ethics) over MBTI's.

Extroverted ethics is generally associated with the ability to recognize and convey (i.e. make others experience) passions, moods, and emotional states, generate excitement, liveliness, and feelings, get emotionally involved in activities and emotionally involve others, recognize and describe emotional interaction between people and groups, and build a sense of community and emotional unity.

The individual is keenly aware of emotions being displayed around him and responds to them immediately, without particularly thinking about it. Additionally, the individual easily grasps what drives people, how engaged they are in any particular activity and why. Excitement and passion contrast with boredom, jadedness, and disconnection...

He is intrigued by people who don't let all their attitudes and emotions out immediately when they feel them, they (usually introverted logicals) make him want to explore the person more deeply, through either emotional button-pushing or conversational inquiry.

[Uberfuhrer]

I do really identify with the socionics description of ENTp, both at socionics.com and even more so at Wikisocion.

In many ways, I like the socionics theory better than MBTI, because each type has all eight cognitive functions (rather than just four) working in different ways.

[edcoaching]

I do really identify with the socionics description of ENTp, both at socionics.com and even more so at Wikisocion.

In many ways, I like the socionics theory better than MBTI, because each type has all eight cognitive functions (rather than just four) working in different ways.

Thanks--I'll go look at Wikisocion.

There are tons of type resources by people who probably favor MBTI over other instruments to get at Jungian type that also acknowledge how each type uses all 8 functions. Personally I think beyond the first two they develop in different order based on experiences and training, etc., but some think it's a set order for each type...

[Uberfuhrer]

There are tons of type resources by people who probably favor MBTI over other instruments to get at Jungian type that also acknowledge how each type uses all 8 functions. Personally I think beyond the first two they develop in different order based on experiences and training, etc., but some think it's a set order for each type...

Socionics puts more of Freud's ideas into the mix.

With an ENTp type, Ne and Ti are part of the Ego block. Next up is the Superego block. The ENTp has Se and Fi in their Superego block. Then comes the Superid block, where the ENTp uses Si and Fe. And finally, on the Id block, the ENTp uses Ni and Te.

But I do think the V.I. is pretty interesting and often very accurate. Most people associate this with socionics, but it exists among certain sects of MBTI practitioners. For example, a great number of us are able to tell an INFP simply by looking at their picture.

[edcoaching]

Socionics puts more of Freud's ideas into the mix.

Now that's actually funny since Jung's ruminations on type began with his fallout with Freud.

I'll take a look at the VI stuff. One of my friend's study's (started more on a whim than on a research basis but done scientifically) showed more validity to handprint analysis for T-F than the MBTI--done only with type practitioners where there is no question re: their type...people like Isabel Myers' son...

[edcoaching]

With an ENTp type, Ne and Ti are part of the Ego block. Next up is the Superego block. The ENTp has Se and Fi in their Superego block. Then comes the Superid block, where the ENTp uses Si and Fe. And finally, on the Id block, the ENTp uses Ni and Te.

That sounds a lot like John Beebe's work where he ties each function to archetypes, the hero/warrior/orphan/trickster stuff.

[Ilah]

I looked around at wikisocion for awhile and found it a bit confusing.

I think if I had not studyed MBTI at all I probably could have understood it. It was the whole similiar but different thing that did it. They use most of the same words, but they seem to mean a little bit different over there. The process types explainations were a bit different, like Si is calm and seeks harmony and Se is more energetic and excited. And it is confusing how j and p are reversed so you are a different type.

It is like they are almost compatible, but not quite.

After looking for it awhile I felt it was better for me to concentrate on either the MBTI or socionics because it was two confusing for me to do both. I think it would get mixed up in my mind which parts were from which.

It is not that I can't deal with two different theories. I just read a book on the Enneagram and don't find it confusing. I think that is because it uses completely different terms and personality types.

Ilah

[Uberfuhrer]

I think if I had not studyed MBTI at all I probably could have understood it. It was the whole similiar but different thing that did it. They use most of the same words, but they seem to mean a little bit different over there. The process types explainations were a bit different, like Si is calm and seeks harmony and Se is more energetic and excited. And it is confusing how j and p are reversed so you are a different type.

That's basically how Jung viewed Si and Se.

With Si harmony, it's not really the same as an Fi harmony, it's more about keeping peace and maintaining balance and harmony (AKA stability) of the physical world rather than adapting to what comes up, as it is with Se, or being driven by human values, as it is with Fi.

Likewise, Jung viewed Ne as the expression of a vision and noted how Ne types do not necessarily bring the visions to life by themselves, but rather inspire others with the expression of their vision. Jung also viewed Ne as challenging of the status quo and instigating change through example rather than necessarily following through -- inspiring others with their own inspirations. By contrast, the Ni type will muse upon internal mental wanderings.

Both Se and Si are S types, so they are driven by sensations, but where Se will be curious about new sensations and experiences, Si savors their sensations.

Likewise, as both Ne and Ni are both N types, they are driven by inspiration. Just as Se will seek new experiences, Ne seeks new inspirations. And just as Si savors sense impressions, Ni savors their inspirations.

I feel that socionics does a better job of describing the cognitive processes, because they are more faithful to Jung's ideas, unlike modern MBTI theory. What makes socionics different from Jung is the functional order of each type, which implements more Freudian ideas.

EDIT: As far as j and p in socionics, as opposed to J and P in MBTI, it's more based on what kind function dominates rather than which function is extroverted. Ixxp means the person's dominant function is both an introverted and perceiving function in socionics. Ixxj means the person's dominant function is introverted and judging. In MBTI, IxxP means the person extroverts his/her perceiving function, IxxJ means the person extroverts his/her judgment function.

[Ilah]

That's basically how Jung viewed Si and Se.

With Si harmony, it's not really the same as an Fi harmony, it's more about keeping peace and maintaining balance and harmony (AKA stability) of the physical world rather than adapting to what comes up, as it is with Se, or being driven by human values, as it is with Fi.

Likewise, Jung viewed Ne as the expression of a vision and noted how Ne types do not necessarily bring the visions to life by themselves, but rather inspire others with the expression of their vision. Jung also viewed Ne as challenging of the status quo and instigating change through example rather than necessarily following through -- inspiring others with their own inspirations. By contrast, the Ni type will muse upon internal mental wanderings.

Both Se and Si are S types, so they are driven by sensations, but where Se will be curious about new sensations and experiences, Si savors their sensations.

Likewise, as both Ne and Ni are both N types, they are driven by inspiration. Just as Se will seek new experiences, Ne seeks new inspirations. And just as Si savors sense impressions, Ni savors their inspirations.

I feel that socionics does a better job of describing the cognitive processes, because they are more faithful to Jung's ideas, unlike modern MBTI theory. What makes socionics different from Jung is the functional order of each type, which implements more Freudian ideas.

EDIT: As far as j and p in socionics, as opposed to J and P in MBTI, it's more based on which function dominates rather than which function is extroverted. Ixxp means the person is an introverted perceiver in socionics. In MBTI, IxxP means the person extroverts his/her perceiving function.

Now I am really tempted to rethink my earlier decision.

I am not sure what to make out of all the different definitions and explanations of the functions. I am not refering just to MBTI v. socionics either.

I will read several descriptions of a trait and decide whether my ability with that trait is good, medium or poor. Then I read another description and it can change that drastically.

Se/Si is a good cases in point. I took the test at congativeprocesses.com earlier today and it scored me good in Si and unused in Se, which is the opposite of what I thought it would be. I noticed that it too, had different definitions of Si and Se.

Based on the soicionics definition I would be more Si than Se. It is very important to me to have nice decoration in my office and home, which I thought of as very Se. However, most of my decorations are designed to give the place a feeling of harmony. My art room at home is an extreme example - the primary decorations in the room are mandalas.

I have some more thoughts and questions along this line, but I think I will post a new thread about them under the "MBTI, Enneagram, and other personality matrices" section since it is not just about socionics.

Ilah

[edcoaching]

That's basically how Jung viewed Si and Se.

With Si harmony, it's not really the same as an Fi harmony, it's more about keeping peace and maintaining balance and harmony (AKA stability) of the physical world rather than adapting to what comes up, as it is with Se, or being driven by human values, as it is with Fi.

Likewise, Jung viewed Ne as the expression of a vision and noted how Ne types do not necessarily bring the visions to life by themselves, but rather inspire others with the expression of their vision. Jung also viewed Ne as challenging of the status quo and instigating change through example rather than necessarily following through -- inspiring others with their own inspirations. By contrast, the Ni type will muse upon internal mental wanderings.

Both Se and Si are S types, so they are driven by sensations, but where Se will be curious about new sensations and experiences, Si savors their sensations.

Likewise, as both Ne and Ni are both N types, they are driven by inspiration. Just as Se will seek new experiences, Ne seeks new inspirations. And just as Si savors sense impressions, Ni savors their inspirations.

I feel that socionics does a better job of describing the cognitive processes, because they are more faithful to Jung's ideas, unlike modern MBTI theory. What makes socionics different from Jung is the functional order of each type, which implements more Freudian ideas.

EDIT: As far as j and p in socionics, as opposed to J and P in MBTI, it's more based on what kind function dominates rather than which function is extroverted. Ixxp means the person's dominant function is both an introverted and perceiving function in socionics. Ixxj means the person's dominant function is introverted and judging. In MBTI, IxxP means the person extroverts his/her perceiving function, IxxJ means the person extroverts his/her judgment function.

That's just crazy accurate (sorry, I've been hearing too much Olympics commentary)

[edcoaching]

Based on the soicionics definition I would be more Si than Se. It is very important to me to have nice decoration in my office and home, which I thought of as very Se. However, most of my decorations are designed to give the place a feeling of harmony. My art room at home is an extreme example - the primary decorations in the room are mandalas. Ilah

that's a behavior that many Fi's find they have in common. Fe's want to create spaces in which people can be harmonious when they gather there...