ESTP male falling hard for an ISTJ female

[onecoolguy]

I've read a few google searches on compatibility between ESTPs and ISTJs, and from what I have gathered, we would hit it off really well. And we did.

A little background: Currently I'm in my mid- twenties. I met this ISTJ girl, within the same age range, a long time ago (over 4 years) when she was on vacation visiting a mutual friend of ours for a weekend in my town. We clicked. Got along really well, and I ended up having a crush. I never made a move at all, knowing she was only there for a few days. Being an ESTP it's nothing new to be infatuated with a good-looking person I got along with, so I just told myself I'd get over her. I did, but it took longer than expected.

Fast forward to present time. Since then I graduated college and am now a senior in medical school (and yes, I struggled as an ESTP should in a post-grad program but pass = MD, so I'm good). I haven't heard from her for years and then she tells me she moved out here and we should meet up. We've been "hanging out" for a few months now and those feelings are back.

We have the same priorities, outlook, and appreciation for life's odds and ends. I'll even claim we'd be instant best friends if I didn't think she was hot. The problem is she is so independent that she doesn't need to date at all, as it's one of her one of her "rules" she goes by (yes, I know about you SJ's and your Rules). Education is her top priority and she feels as if having a boyfriend would get in the way.

She's the polar opposite of the dependent girl who chronically dates the next guy that falls in her lap. I happen to find her independence attractive since I am quite the free spirit myself but that's the very thing that keeps her guard up. I think this could turn into something beautiful. I've met someone I like enough to overcome my commitment phobia. There's chemistry there between us, but her view on a relationship is what's holding her back. That, and, she's not very expressive, so she's a tougher read than other girls. I'm not as sure about her feelings as I am about others. ISTJs, can you list some signs that would say she's into me?

I'm equally independent and after going through 3 greuling years school, I know all about giving relationships a back seat to my career. How do I convince her that a relationship can fit in the back seat and that you don't have to completely kick it to the curb?

What I want to do is just flat out tell her and obtain an answer. I take it that's a no-no, considering that ISTJ's get flustered when forced to make a snap decision on the spot. The question is, what do I do? Write it out like a surgeon about to do a procedure, informed-consent style, letting her know the risks and benefits of a relationship with me then asking her to sign the dotted line in a few days so she can think it over?

Bottom line is (as ESTPs and ISTJs alike really care about the bottom line) I need to show her that I'm willing to take second priority (or third, fourth, whatever) in her life as she accomplishes her dreams. More importantly, I would like to show her that I don't really need her full dedication in order for a relationship to work for me. I have a million other things floating around out there that I can just pick up and try out, but nothing replaces the connection of another person that you're truly interested in.

I've come up with a few options.
1) As mentioned earlier, lay it out on the table and wait for an answer. Something along the lines of "I'm into you. You're and this can work. Be mine, or tell me to move on." Her instant defense goes up, but at least I say what I need to. It's killing me, keeping it all inside.
[I]2) Ride it out and play it by ear. Keep being my charming self and she'll come around, eventually. Problem is, anything longer than 10 seconds is too long for me. I'm a nice breeze and she's a rock. I don't think she'll budge.
3) Give up? It's not like she's the only one out there. Just a diamond in the rough, that's all. I might have to go back to cubic zirconia.

Any advice?

[Mempy]

If she remembered you after several years, when your first meeting was so brief, there seems to be a definite chemistry felt on her part, too.

How do I convince her that a relationship can fit in the back seat and that you don't have to completely kick it to the curb?

You tell her what you've told us. You communicate. In this case, you can be fervent and honest at the same time, and that will effectively let her know your thoughts - and she may not believe that that type of relationship is possible, but she'll at least believe YOU believe it's possible. If you two do end up in a relationship, that relationship, over time, depending on how you two do it, will be the proof. It will be the ULTIMATE proof, assuming that you both do pull off a relationship of that nature, and I'm betting it can be done.

Hmm. I might wait a little longer, continue being your charming and intelligent self, and ease into it a little more, before taking that big leap. But you could just say eventually, "Look, I really want to give this a go. If it really starts getting in the way of your education, if you end up finding it not to your liking, fine. We can end it. But just give it the chance."

It seems you guys have had discussions about your careers and your independence and how important they are to you both, so she may already get the sense that you understand her on those two points. Still, it never hurts to spell it out. You seem eloquent enough. Tell her what you've told us. Lay it out and tell her that this is how you plan on approaching a relationship. You don't necessarily have to tell her that this is how you would approach your relationship with her, yet; find a way to open a discussion on the topic of relationships, if you haven't already.

Sounds like you've got a good one there, and you seem to be approaching this very reasonably. Good luck. :) With school AND the girl.

[Rachelinpa]

But you could just say eventually, "Look, I really want to give this a go. If it really starts getting in the way of your education, if you end up finding it not to your liking, fine. We can end it. But just give it the chance."

It seems you guys have had discussions about your careers and your independence and how important they are to you both, so she may already get the sense that you understand her on those two points. Still, it never hurts to spell it out. You seem eloquent enough. Tell her what you've told us. Lay it out and tell her that this is how you plan on approaching a relationship. You don't necessarily have to tell her that this is how you would approach your relationship with her, yet; find a way to open a discussion on the topic of relationships, if you haven't already.

What Mempy said.

I live with ISTJs and you sort of have to map it out for them. Tell them what you want clearly and see what their response is. Most of the ISTJs I know are not at all indecisive and will tell you upfront if they see potential or not. They usually have already thought it through... made a pro con list... etc... haha.

[Beat]

Tell her what you've told us!

[runvardh]

Tell her what you've told us!

I'd say go for this if we can get an "amen" on it from Recolita

[PinkPiranha]

Sounds like a wonderful match waiting to happen! Just repeat what you said here, bro, and best of luck to you! ESTPs and ISTJs go really well together!

[dnivera]

Go with approach #1.

if she's told you already that she doesn't want to be in a relationship while in school, and you guys are close, that's a huge red flag. Every girl has thoughts about turning her very good friend into "more than a friend," but doesn't necessarily act out on those feelings. Practiaclly, she doesn't want to mess up her life plan. School comes first.

But it really depends on the individual. Weirdly, I break all the rules of MBTI when it comes to things like love. The last time someone confessed their feelings for me I accepted him, even though I had plans to enter a phD program. We were in a long-distance relationship for 4 years.

There's always risk attached to confessing your feelings for someone, but if you lay it all out practically and tell her you're willing to take a backseat to her ambition (planning out how it would work) it would be very convincing to me, and I would be willing to be more flexible. Relationships are hard work for an ISTJ, and if you tell her that you're going to let her career come first, she won't have to work so hard at the relationship and consider entering one. So definitely map it out for her. It's better than keeping it all inside. I'd be happy if someone confessed their feelings for me.

EDIT: Absolutely, tell her what you've told us!

[digesthisickness]

Every girl has thoughts about turning her very good friend into "more than a friend," but doesn't act out on those feelings.

wrong.

[Beat]

^lol

[runvardh]

wrong.

Yeah, but you ENTPs are wierd ^_^

[onecoolguy]

Go with approach #1.
Every girl has thoughts about turning her very good friend into "more than a friend," but doesn't necessarily act out on those feelings. Practiaclly, she doesn't want to mess up her life plan. School comes first.


From my experience, every girl doesn't. But, is this the case for you, as an ISTJ female? That may put me in a better situation if this is what she thinks as well.

All I need to do now is get her to open up on being in a relationship she doesn't have to work hard in. I just don't know how well the words "relaxed, laid-back, no-stress" fit into the ISTJ temperment, especially in a relationship since she's the type to put in 110% if get gets involved in something. We have talked about relationships in general, and she seems to think of it as unfair to make such a valued person as a boyfriend take a back seat in her life.

Then again, we are all human, no matter the type. In various quantities, personal contact, connection, love, and belonging are all weaved into our needs in one way or another. The best way to do this is to strike a chord that agrees with her undisputed life path to success and also agrees with her needs as a human being.

The best way is indeed to tell her, then discuss options in the most practical way possible. I have no problem confessing these feelings, then coming up with a plan that is agreeable to us both. All I need is a proper time and place, and her, when she decides to take a break. Wow, for you SJ's out there, is this what you do all the time? I've never mapped out such a detailed plan for a girl before. I feel like I'm drafting a contract. It's amazing what a little openness, understanding, and helpful advice can make me do.

I'll keep you all updated. Thanks for the advice, keep it coming!

[Mempy]

Then again, we are all human, no matter the type. In various quantities, personal contact, connection, love, and belonging are all weaved into our needs in one way or another. The best way to do this is to strike a chord that agrees with her undisputed life path to success and also agrees with her needs as a human being.

Right, exactly. Very nicely said. But there's also the challenge of finding the best way to meet your own needs while not conflicting with your life path to success. Thankfully, you both seem to have similar life paths to success, and also similar needs on the intimacy vs. independence axis, so I think you two are possibly very promising in terms of compatibility. I think one of the biggest components to relationship success, if not the biggest, is shared expectations for what the relationship is going to bring into each person's life. You two seem like you'll expect similar things from a relationship at this point in your lives, although your needs may still differ significantly from hers. How much attention, time and energy would you say you have to devote to a relationship right now, compared to her?

We have talked about relationships in general, and she seems to think of it as unfair to make such a valued person as a boyfriend take a back seat in her life.

I can see why she thinks this, and I can see myself saying the exact same thing, but I also think that unfairness is largely in the mind of the person who perceives themselves as being treated unfairly, rather than in the behavior deemed as unfair, you know? What's unfair to one person is different from what's unfair to another. If you find it perfectly fair for her to put you in the backseat, and if you find it fair that the relationship is of a low-key, low-maintenance quality, then perhaps she will be able to feel she is being more fair to you. Still, I understand completely why she would say this and think this way.

Perhaps she is worried that, should she take the plunge with you, things will inevitably fall apart because she just doesn't have the time to maintain a healthy relationship right now. Maybe what she really means is, "I think it will be unfair to me and to you to risk this relationship right now, because right now it has minimal chance of succeeding. Perhaps we can wait until it has a better chance of success and health, and if we're still interested in a few months or years, take the risk then?"

You seem to have your own educational and career goals that prevent you from putting her in the front seat, to an extent, so she may have very good reason to believe your relationship won't succeed at the present time. In a way, you both are in similar situations. You can't put a relationship in the front seat, and neither can she.

On the one hand, question how fair it is for you both to pass up a relationship that could perhaps work alongside school and career goals. Perhaps. Then again, how fair is it to you guys to try to take the plunge now, when one or both partners is unable to give it the full attention and effort it not only deserves, but needs? I don't know. It's tricky. You don't want to jump into a relationship that is very likely to fail at the present time, simply because one or both partners don't have the time and energy to maintain it, but you both really do seem compatible. If the timing really is bad, well, the timing's bad. Maybe you two really ought to remain friends for a while longer.

I can almost feel the exhilaration and anticipation for you, the kind that comes from standing on the edge of an exciting new relationship, and I really feel for your dilemma because it makes sense from all angles to me. It is a dilemma.

The best way is indeed to tell her, then discuss options in the most practical way possible. I have no problem confessing these feelings, then coming up with a plan that is agreeable to us both. All I need is a proper time and place, and her, when she decides to take a break. Wow, for you SJ's out there, is this what you do all the time? I've never mapped out such a detailed plan for a girl before. I feel like I'm drafting a contract. It's amazing what a little openness, understanding, and helpful advice can make me do.

I don't know if you necessarily need a plan, per se, but you two definitely need to agree on what this relationship is going to look like, the provisions you two believe you can meet, and you also need to agree on whether you think this can be a fulfilling relationship or not based on those provisions. How often is she available to you? Are you okay with that amount of availability? You may be okay now, but will you be okay over the course of months, or years? You simply may not know what it's really like until you're there.

[dnivera]

From my experience, every girl doesn't. But, is this the case for you, as an ISTJ female? That may put me in a better situation if this is what she thinks as well.



I do, but not with every guy. Of course I didn't mean *everyone.* Wasn't there a thread about this?

Another thing to consider is how, practically, your relationship is going to work out. Do you live close to one another? How much time per week do you need to spend together? If you're doing rotations in a hospital, and she's still taking classes, will you be able to see each other and make time for another? If grad school were my first priority, I would feel really bad if I were in a relationship and couldn't spend time with my guy...especially if I really cared about him. ISTJs care about duty and fulfilling their part of a relationship. So maybe I would just say that I didn't want to be in a relationship while in school. If you tell her your feelings for her, she will probably bring up these practical aspects (I certainly would).

When I was dating my ex (also an ISTJ) long-distance, we were very concerned with planning our time together and making sure we scheduled time together. (For the love of god, we were scheduled).

Go for it, and keep us updated! (Where's Recoleta? Am I really the only other ISTJ female here?)

[Recoleta]

I
Go for it, and keep us updated! (Where's Recoleta? Am I really the only other ISTJ female here?)

I'd say go for this if we can get an "amen" on it from Recoleta

Oh goodness, here I am, albeit a little late...I was busy living in the real world for a bit.

Ok, for 1: "amen" to what Beat said...lay it out and tell her everything you just told us...it removes all the ambiguity of feelings and stuff like that. Also, if you think she's fantastic then tell her all the things that you love about her...and be detailed. Even though ISTJ females don't show emotions or verbal affection openly, when we see someone else lay it on the line, it makes us more likely to be vulnerable in return (but be patient with her return, it may not be immediate). Plus, everyone likes a little ego stroke every once in awhile...just make sure that it's sincere.

Anyway onecoolguy, reading your original post was like reading the story of my life. I wish I could give you some great fail-proof advice, but realtionships are something that I am trying to work on for myself...and really depends on the individual. I am also in grad school and keep that as my top priority. I tried dating someone a couple of months ago, but that fell apart rather quickly, because really, it was just too stressful trying to be in contact with someone on a daily basis. I just didn't have that kind of time to commit, and I felt I was being unfair to him and I was getting irritated with him because he would want to hang out with me every free chance I had, but really, I need alone time and time with my other friends. However, if you don't pressure her to be in constant contact, and are able to be independent yourself, then I'd say you'd have a very good shot at a realtionship with her.

IMO, here's how you know an ISTJ female is interested: She initiates contact with you on a regular basis. If I make the effort to keep in touch, it means I really care. Really, lay it all out, and let her know it's ok to be independent and to not commit 100% all of the time to the realtionship. Also, don't call her all the time, let her reach out to you (if she doesn't already)...IMO 50/50 communication is best. Make her work for your affection, and don't always give her the upper hand just because she's busy. If she likes you, she will find room for you.

Anyway, good luck, and let us know how it goes...if you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

[LadyJaye]

Good luck guy! Sounds like you really know how she thinks, and that you obviously care about her!

[onecoolguy]

How much attention, time and energy would you say you have to devote to a relationship right now, compared to her?

I actually will have more time this year since senior year in med school is more chill rotations and electives. There's a couple of hard months, but nothing like last year when I was in the hospital 80 hours a week. I'll still be somewhat busy, tying up loose ends here and there in order to match at a preferred residency and graduate. I would say it's about equal to the time she's available when all is said and done. As far as the attention and energy - I haven't really fallen for someone this hard in a long time (probably when I met her the first time 4 years ago) so the attention and energy will take care of itself. The real key with her is to show this attention and energy to her with the correct timing so she will actually appreciate it instead of get annoyed by it. I think I've done well so far - but ultimately I need to actually be dating her to figure that out.

How often is she available to you? Are you okay with that amount of availability? You may be okay now, but will you be okay over the course of months, or years? You simply may not know what it's really like until you're there.

It's true, I really don't know how much I will want her to be available until I'm actually there. For example, right now I want to see her, but I am able to (sorta) push that feeling away since I have boards in 3 days. I'll always have something to do if she's not around, but she'll always be on my mind. I also feel restless like this because I want to tell her how I feel already. I don't really care if she doesn't think about me like that - she's the type to focus on the task, get it done, then focus on the next task while eliminating distractions.

For starters, I don't think I'd care if she were unavailable for the next month - I'd be at ease just knowing she's mine. I'm very good at adapting and compromise, so I think I'll be fine. She's not completely inflexible either; I could see her making a compromise with her ways if it makes sense. Knowing how well we communicate, it won't be a problem.


Another thing to consider is how, practically, your relationship is going to work out. Do you live close to one another? How much time per week do you need to spend together? If you're doing rotations in a hospital, and she's still taking classes, will you be able to see each other and make time for another? If grad school were my first priority, I would feel really bad if I were in a relationship and couldn't spend time with my guy...especially if I really cared about him. ISTJs care about duty and fulfilling their part of a relationship.

We live less than 5 minutes apart. I guess that's the key right there, willingness to make time. If we liked each other enough and at the same time understand each other well, then the time thing will work itself out. It helps living this close, too.

You bring up a valid point about fulfilling duty. I think if I let her know on occasion that I appreciate how she makes time for me and I like things how they are, she'll be okay. Of course, I'm not afraid to speak my mind if I think otherwise, either.


if you don't pressure her to be in constant contact, and are able to be independent yourself, then I'd say you'd have a very good shot at a realtionship with her.

IMO, here's how you know an ISTJ female is interested: She initiates contact with you on a regular basis. If I make the effort to keep in touch, it means I really care.

Also, don't call her all the time, let her reach out to you (if she doesn't already)...IMO 50/50 communication is best. Make her work for your affection, and don't always give her the upper hand just because she's busy. If she likes you, she will find room for you.


As far as communication goes right now, I text her maybe once or twice a week. 25% of the time I'm saying hi, and the rest of the time we're making plans to meet up. No calls lately, since I'm stuck in a library and she's stuck in a research lab most of the day. I figure it's better not to smother her with a flood of texts and calls that other types need. Sometimes I get instant feedback, other times it takes a couple hours, but she's never missed a response. I'm actually quite impressed about her reliability. I usually initiate the communication. Within the past 3 months that we've been hanging out, she's probably initiated 15-20% of the time. So, what's your assessment? LOL.


The great thing is, I can be honest and speak my mind whenever I'm around her. I get to be candid and "tell it how it is". That will be the cornerstone in my delivery when I talk to her about this. I usually don't have to confess feelings but in order to get things moving in this situation, it's my only option - and I actually want to do it. I'm going to try and do it this week after my exam. I'm prepared for both outcomes, although if she accepts I'll be so happy that I won't know what to do with myself. What's weird is if she says no, then I have no choice but to be one of her best friends since we get along so well. I'll probably be crushed, but understanding her reasons takes some of the sting away. No matter the result, I think she'll appreciate the honesty.

Wish me luck!! Thanks for the wonderful advice gals and guys, and give me some last-minute pointers if you have any.

[Edahn]

Any advice?

If you're going to ask for advice, make your initial post shorter and supplement details later in the thread. ;)

[FDG]

First of all, you shoul consider if you are certain you would be able to handle a relationship of this kind - where both of your are bound due to other interests and obligations not to see each other often. From your posts, it seems like you're extremely into this girl. It can be very hard not to be able to see a girl you really, really like - and the relationship would suffer, basically being doomed from the start.

[onecoolguy]

First of all, you shoul consider if you are certain you would be able to handle a relationship of this kind - where both of your are bound due to other interests and obligations not to see each other often. From your posts, it seems like you're extremely into this girl. It can be very hard not to be able to see a girl you really, really like - and the relationship would suffer, basically being doomed from the start.

There's a low chance of that happening, but it still might. The reward is greater than the risk, though. You could say the opposite - the feeling may be mutual and something incredible could come out of all of this. I'd rather try and have it not work. I would then know more about myself and what I require in a relationship. For all I know, this may be what I've been looking for all along.

[Recoleta]

So, what's your assessment? LOL.

My assessment is that it's probably a good sign. I think in general female ISTJ's don't like to initiate contact much, so I'd say it's pretty normal that you would be the starter of most of your interactions. I think the fact that she gives you a consistent and immediate response (or within a couple of hours) is a good sign. Only people high on my priority list get that kind of immediate treatment. For others, I might wait a day or so to get back to depending on how important it is.

Anyway, I say you should go for it...good luck! Let us know how it goes!