On Social Camouflage

[Provoker]

I have all of the characteristics of a human being: flesh, a beating heart, a proportional figure and a working brain although I have no single identifiable emotion. I grew up in a household where emotions are a sign of weakness. True, I have been known to lose control sometimes in a surge of aggression that resulted in me bottling someone but after a second I was back to my neutral temperament. I do not have a pang of conscience. I have read about it in books and even seen it in Hollywood movies but I do not know of such things from personal experience. The alleged 'prick of conscience' is something alien to me. Over the last few years I've spent time reading and studying a lot and developing my intellectual side. It would not be out of the ordinary for someone to call me 'genius' although I'm too modest to ever squeeze myself into the genius elevator with Einstein and Picasso already in there which is clearly going up. Suffice it to say that my 'uniqueness' has resulted in a certain level of isolationism - I have become rather reclusive over the last three years in particular. However, I have made an honest effort to fit in better via 'social camouflage'. To all you elitists, geniuses, eccentrics, or odd-balls: what do you do to camouflage your abilities when the situation calls for it? Like Nietzsche's Zarathustra, I've been up in the mountain in solitude for a really long time and I'd like to come down to the village to play. Zarathustra would like to become a man again...what do you guys do to get back in touch with the human side?

[murkrow]

Why?!

[Colors]

I don't know. Wouldn't you have to be able to grasp simple concepts of social interaction to be considered an almost genius? Or are we almost calling you a genius only in certain areas?

Simple social interaction isn't that hard. It follows rules, just as much as anything else. There's a code, a pattern, etc.

Depends on the eccentricities you want to hide. I don't really want to hide my own eccentricities. It doesn't bring along the meaningful interaction that is satisfying in my life.

So, what is it you want to hide? A stuttering problem? A worship of Xenu?

[Provoker]

I don't know. Wouldn't you have to be able to grasp simple concepts of social interaction to be considered an almost genius? Or are we almost calling you a genius only in certain areas?

I'm not even going to respond to this because it is missing the big picture and if you've studied even a few historic geniuses you'd know they have tended to have social and emotional issues.


So, what is it you want to hide? A stuttering problem? A worship of Xenu?

lol...No, again, these are sensor things and very literal I might add. My issues are more abstract. Intensity, dissonance in conversation with certain people, and whatever else you guys have.

[Decon]

I actually have social camouflage. When I do go out with others, I keep to myself. But that's only people I barely know. When I'm with friends, I'll be myself in my weird and sarcastic way and people like it. And since I've tested as many things, I have the ability to reach across many lines to connect with people. But then again, I've had that ability for as long as I can remember. But I think it helps. So a good way to start a convo with people is to work on your E side by asking people about things you both see. I find this works really where like Art shows and Concerts. I hope this helps.

[Colors]

lol...No, again, these are sensor things and very literal I might add. My issues are more abstract. Intensity, dissonance in conversation with certain people, and whatever else you guys have.

It's a joke. There needs to be a joke smilie or something. These internet stuffs are impossible.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that your question to "hide" your social eccentricities is sort of ... missing the point. What is there to gain in hiding? Sure maybe a little acceptance and companionship, but you'll be "camouflaged" as in your own words- so you won't be appreciated for your own true colors. That kind of acceptance isn't really... complete.

When I'm with friends, I'll be myself in my weird and sarcastic way and people like it.

See, good example. Restructuring/rephrasing. It's not what you say... certainly you would probably appreciate someone appreciating your commentary on the world... it's how to say it which builds a back-and-forth conversation.

[Night]

I have all of the characteristics of a human being...

I've also seen American Psycho...
Read the novel.

Are you offering legitimate insight, or is it a reflection of the pop ideology presented in the movie?

[DigitalMethod]

So your saying the issue to solve here is... you want friends?

Just be yourself, be truthful.

[Economica]

It would not be out of the ordinary for someone to call me 'genius' although I'm too modest to ever squeeze myself into the genius elevator with Einstein and Picasso already in there which is clearly going up.

Too modest to call yourself a genius but not too modest to mention that it would not be out of the ordinary for someone to call you a genius - right, I remember that phase, uh, level of modesty. :whistling:

Suffice it to say that my 'uniqueness' has resulted in a certain level of isolationism - I have become rather reclusive over the last three years in particular.

Let me guess... This would be since you entered puberty?

The good news is you'll grow out of it eventually. In the meantime, read Ayn Rand's novels. :yes: It sounds like it can't hurt but only help at this point.

[Metamorphosis]

intellectual genius != social retard
We see this a lot, though.

[Night]

intellectual genius != social retard
We see this a lot, though.

I don't think the first variable of your axiom applies to Provoker.

[alicia91]

So do you want to CHANGE your behavior and improve your social skills so you fit in, or you simply want to BE YOURSELF? If it's the first I would suggest seeing a therapist for some social skills work or perhaps a life coach. If it's the latter, it might be more effective to seek out other oddballs and connect with them rather than trying to hide your real self.

I think it's extremely presumptuous of you to suggest that the reason that you don't have these skills is because you are so smart, so abstract, etc. Social skills are just another behavior to learn, either directly or through modelling. Obviously you have spent time developing your intellectual side, and haven't focused enough on the social part.

[Provoker]

I've also seen American Psycho...
Read the novel.

Are you offering legitimate insight, or is it a reflection of the pop ideology presented in the movie?

It doesn't matter. Answer my questions in a meaningful way or stay silent.


I think it's extremely presumptuous of you to suggest that the reason that you don't have these skills is because you are so smart, so abstract, etc. .

I never said that my intelligence was the cause of social isolationism - you've invented this cause yourself although I think it plays a role.

[Night]

It doesn't matter. Answer my questions or stay silent. In thie case, you've done neither.

Don't be unoriginal if you dislike dissent.

You ask for insight. There you go.

[Provoker]

Don't be unoriginal if you dislike dissent.

You ask for insight. There you go.



I asked a question. Presumably your answer would in some way address the main question of the thread. What you've done is added unnecessary input which you're entitled to it just doesn't add value to the thread :s


Are you offering legitimate insight, or is it a reflection of the pop ideology presented in the movie?


This seems to be an ordinary tendency of S-types to dichotomize everything and invent false choices. I've merely used the movie and book as tools to frame the issue. Whether my situation is genuine or whether I am speaking through the guise of Zarathustra is of no consequence. People like this do exist period. Having said that, this thread is directed toward a dialogue of contemplating solutions.

[pardo]

If you want to be with common people, I'd suggest beer. That's what I did, anyway. I used to drink a beer or two in advance, when I had to go out with people or girls. It made miracles! My isolation period was ~8 years (16-24). With time you can (re)learn to do a bit of small talk and appreciate some worldly pleasures. Don't expect to become a "cool dude" overnight, though...

[alicia91]

I never said that my intelligence was the cause of social isolationism - you've invented this cause yourself although I think it plays a role.

Well, you certainly suggested it with this:

It would not be out of the ordinary for someone to call me 'genius' although I'm too modest to ever squeeze myself into the genius elevator with Einstein and Picasso already in there which is clearly going up

But your statements about lacking a concience and wanting to be more human is very disturbing. But at least it's a first step that you acknowledge it. Do you think that you might have a condition such as BPD or are you just being a bit dramatic? If it's the latter, than Pardo's suggestion about beer and small talk make sense.

[Uytuun]

Maybe he's just...provoking.

[Provoker]

Maybe he's just...provoking.

lol ^^

[substitute]

Let your eccentricities show, they will only identify and endear you to like minds. And often to unlike minds, too.

Unless the eccentricities in question are selfishness, inconsideration and extreme vanity and arrogance. Cos then even if you meet like minds, they won't appreciate it. They like to dish it out but can't handle getting it back, generally.

All the rules of social etiquette boil down to just one simple principle that should be natural to any decent human being: whatever you do, make like the motorist checking his blind spot one last time for cyclists before turning the corner, and check that what you're about to do isn't going to harm anyone. Quite often the litmus test for this is by examining your own motive for doing it. Are you boasting? Trying to make yourself look good? IOW, are your motives selfishly driven, or are you genuinely sharing, genuinely interested in the other person and trying to be constructive for their benefit?

The 'golden mystery' of monasticism, which enables groups of people to live together at close quarters for long periods when they don't get to choose who they live with, is that if everyone forgets themselves and just pays attention to caring for others, then everyone gets their needs met. This can work in secular socializing too.

People who are too preoccupied with their own appearance to the group, their own image or concerns or whatever else tend to not do very well, because this comes across and is unattractive.

People who are focused on the other people around them, their needs and what they're sharing, tend to do much better and be more well liked. It makes them want to focus on you; you don't need to demand it by 'look at me, I'm so clever/funny/rich/whatever' tactics.

[Fuent]

This is what happens when you come out of isolation and talk to people other than yourself. They tell you their own insights whether you like them or not. Get over yourself. Stop telling people that they have to answer in a "meaningful way" (that being what YOU think is meaningful, not necessarily what is actually meaningful) or they have to "be silent." This is the internet. We say what we want when we want.

[Colors]

Oh, don't bother lecturing. You'll just encourage him to tack on "misunderstood" to his "genius" shtick, like we don't have enough of those running about.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Let your eccentricities show, they will only identify and endear you to like minds. And often to unlike minds, too.

. . . .

People who are focused on the other people around them, their needs and what they're sharing, tend to do much better and be more well liked. It makes them want to focus on you; you don't need to demand it by 'look at me, I'm so clever/funny/rich/whatever' tactics.

Look at me! I'm an ENTP!

[Maverick]

I have all of the characteristics of a human being: flesh, a beating heart, a proportional figure and a working brain although I have no single identifiable emotion. I grew up in a household where emotions are a sign of weakness. True, I have been known to lose control sometimes in a surge of aggression that resulted in me bottling someone but after a second I was back to my neutral temperament. I do not have a pang of conscience. I have read about it in books and even seen it in Hollywood movies but I do not know of such things from personal experience. The alleged 'prick of conscience' is something alien to me. Over the last few years I've spent time reading and studying a lot and developing my intellectual side. It would not be out of the ordinary for someone to call me 'genius' although I'm too modest to ever squeeze myself into the genius elevator with Einstein and Picasso already in there which is clearly going up. Suffice it to say that my 'uniqueness' has resulted in a certain level of isolationism - I have become rather reclusive over the last three years in particular. However, I have made an honest effort to fit in better via 'social camouflage'. To all you elitists, geniuses, eccentrics, or odd-balls: what do you do to camouflage your abilities when the situation calls for it? Like Nietzsche's Zarathustra, I've been up in the mountain in solitude for a really long time and I'd like to come down to the village to play. Zarathustra would like to become a man again...what do you guys do to get back in touch with the human side?

As Nietzsche said, even the wise man needs social interaction, and it is equivalent to some medication with a disgusting taste.

Like Zarathustra, you're going to come down to visit the mob, and you will realize that they take you for a madman with your ways.

The decision is up to you: what do you want to do? Do you need social acceptance for your goals and happiness? If yes, you will unfortunately have to put on a social mask for people, for few can stand idiosyncracy and atypicality in thought.

The thing to do is to have "social" self, which is the mask that enables you to get the amount of stimulation you need as a human being, and a "true" self, which is the one that emerges when you are on your own. This "true" self you will be able to share with others who have been identified as being sufficiently open minded and tolerant.

Existence is already sufficiently anxiogen without having thinkers or philosophers point out to the people in the matrix that what they are living is an illusion.

[substitute]

Maverick, are you having a giraffe? I strongly suspect that you are :thelook:

Otherwise, it'd seem that the ENTJ who wrote this is incredibly enlightened post (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/other-psychology-topics/7483-they-just-don-t-understand.html#post281592) is actually, in the next breath, encouraging a person to fake being Old Bill Door down the pub so he can use people for his personal gratification and amusement in a most arrogant and patronizing way, before retreating again to the ivory tower...?

Samuel de Mazarin - :tongue10:

[Grayscale]

i, too, feel threatened by your claims of intellect! :cry:

out of curiosity, what sort of advantage do friends provide to someone with no emotions? ive considered selling mine into slavery

[Mencken]

Provoker,

You may very well be smart since intelligence runs with NT temperament. I know I am, and thank Qod, too, since, as one old friend remarked, I have made my way in life with few marketable skills other than intellectual horsepower. And that, my friend, leads me back to your first post in this thread.

1. If you're smart, possibly socially retarded (for whatever reason), isolated (by choice or circumstance) and want to be in a safe social environment that tolerates, nay, accepts, freaks and geeks of the highest order, try Mensa. You don't have to test or join to go to local Mensa events. Wherever you are, there's probably a local chapter that has monthly meetings for new and prospective members. For many, Mensa is the social outlet of last resort. For you, it could be a great place to start. Google American Mensa and you're on your way. If you want your local chapter newsletter, PM me and I'll send you one.

2. You have emotions all the time, guaranteed. Intense ones, subtle ones...joy, hatred, fear, jealousy, hunger, happiness, anger, frustration, lust, ecstasy, envy, thirst, etc. Your body/mind generate them unconsciously. At some point you can, with study and practice, program your unconscious. For now, you just need to see, listen for, or simply feel your emotions and where they are in your body when you're feeling them. NT's often get lost in meta head-space and disassociate. So, for a moment, simply PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR EMOTIONS. Try it now. Silence your internal chatter and...just feel whatever your feeling, and where in your body you're feeling it. You may not have names for those emotions, and it could take a little time to identify them, but no matter. Check out this list and just feel each one, just to see what it's like. Remember what each feels like and where in your body you feel it. List of emotions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emotions) Once you know where in your body you feel a particular emotion, you can feel that emotion again, on demand, simply by poking yourself in that part of your body...and that's just the beginning of another discussion we can get into later.

3. Play, practice and experiment with your social skills. Experiment on other people! Experiment on them early and often! Have fun with it! Remember, many people can tell what you're feeling, no matter what camo you think you're wearing. The only effective camo is when you can control what you're feeling, and that comes only with experience. Emotions are the linga franca of non-verbal communication, which is most of it. Whether we admit it to ourselves or not, we, as humans, wear our emotions on our sleeves, our faces, in our mannerisms and especially, in the uncontrollable outward physical manifestations of our internal processes. For example, can you will yourself not to blush, or smile, without destroying the emotion your feeling? Can you remember something visual without looking up? Can you cry without tears? The reality of being human is that you can't help but be yourself, and people who recommend that are giving you bad advice because it often creates a self conscious response, and that's particularly unhelpful.

4. Of course, being self conscious can be problematic, unless you forget to be self conscious and remember to have fun. Focus outward. Focus on what's going on with the person you're with. You'll probably f*ck up at first, and f*ck up alot! I recommend you do! F*ck up early and often just so you know how, so you'll have a baseline of what doesn't work. Then, stop doing those things that you remember don't work and do those things that you remember do work. You may feel awkward sometimes, but when you feel awkward, immediately hear that song from Apocolypse Now, you know, "Ride of the Valkyries". YouTube - Apocalypse Now - The Ride Of The Valkyries (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx7XNb3Q9Ek) Feel better damn near immediately and move forward confidently.

5. Be positive with others. Say positive things and say them with gusto. Yes, that sounds simplistic, but nobody likes hearing you bitch unless it's really entertaining (doubtful) or it's something they're also pissed about. Something simple and easy is to say something positive about the weather, even if it's raining, and say it like you mean it. You'll be off to a great start. This is so f'ing powerful I can't overstate it.

6. So, you grew up in a home where it was falsely asserted that emotions = weakness. Chances are, you have a voice inside your head, (not a schizophrenic voice, but just that part of you we all have) the voice that beats you up when you feel an emotion. TELL THAT VOICE TO STFU WHENEVER IT PIPES UP!!!! Yes, practice, now. STFU!! STFU!!! STFU!!! Yes, doesn't that feel nice? Don't you feel better already? I had one of those voices, too, thanks to my father. He berated me for something different, but no matter. I found that voice and the part of me that spoke it, and told it to STFU!!! Repeatedly. Loudly. Early and often. It took a few rounds in the ring, but that MF doesn't come out any more, and I think I starved him to death. :D

7. Okay, this is the gold. You've read this far so you get a prize! We all synthisize happiness, but we think happiness is a thing to be found. Dan Gilbert asks, Why are we happy? | Video on TED.com (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html)


That's it for tonight's lesson.

Be well.

H.S. Mencken

[Nocapszy]

Is this a joke?

Not rhetorical.

Provoker, is there going to be a big punchline like on the 6th page to effectively end the thread?

[Provoker]

Is this a joke?

Not rhetorical.

Provoker, is there going to be a big punchline like on the 6th page to effectively end the thread?

Nocapszy, I like the Knight in your avatar pic. I have spent significant time contemplating the personalities of chess pieces. I admire the intuition and salient leaps made by the Knight. Even the Queen with all her power cannot spring from the chessboard and land on a different trajectory all done in a non-linear way. In the above quote, you've already predicted the conclusion - a leap comparable to our sacred horse - I can admire this. When I take over the world, you can bet I will find you and make you a senior advisor in my cabinet.

[nottaprettygal]

Maverick, are you having a giraffe? I strongly suspect that you are :thelook:

Otherwise, it'd seem that the ENTJ who wrote this is incredibly enlightened post (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/other-psychology-topics/7483-they-just-don-t-understand.html#post281592) is actually, in the next breath, encouraging a person to fake being Old Bill Door down the pub so he can use people for his personal gratification and amusement in a most arrogant and patronizing way, before retreating again to the ivory tower...?


Well, his post made perfect sense to me and probably to other hard-core introverts as well. Sometimes the only way to get out and do things and practice self-preservation at the same time is to wear a "social" mask. You're making a false assumption that the mask involves lying and getting over on other people. Ninety percent of people accept the mask at face value and don't know (or care to know) any better.

The "just be yourself" motto is so tired. A lot of introverts have no desire for everyone to view their true self.

[substitute]

Well, his post made perfect sense to me and probably to other hard-core introverts as well. Sometimes the only way to get out and do things and practice self-preservation at the same time is to wear a "social" mask. You're making a false assumption that the mask involves lying and getting over on other people. Ninety percent of people accept the mask at face value and don't know (or care to know) any better.

The "just be yourself" motto is so tired. A lot of introverts have no desire for everyone to view their true self.

That's interesting, because so much of the criticism that introverts level at extraverts is based on a perception that extraverts are 'fake' somehow...

I didn't mean anyway, getting over on other people (if I've got the phrase right, never heard it before so just guessing what it means from context). I just meant that if you're lonely because you've no intimacy or friendship with other people, then a way to solve that is to get OVER that fear that leads to the feeling that you NEED to self-preserve, and learn to actually SHARE yourself with another person. It doesn't help a person who feels lonely to tell them to go out and wear a mask cos then at least they can be with people, IMO that will just make them feel even worse when they find that doing that, they still feel lonely because they're not giving anyone anything to gel with.

I don't quite get what it is the dude, or you, or other introverts in your interpretation, actually want from 'people'. It's like you reserve the right to hold yourself back and not really give any more than you feel like giving, whilst also wanting other people to give of themselves to you whatever it is you want them to give, so you don't feel lonely, at your personal convenience...

I'm not judging, I'm just trying to understand... cos the way you put it and the way the OP puts it makes introverts look rather fake and selfish in their approach to other people (to me at least), and yet I know so many introverts and they're not like that, meaning I must've got my wires crossed somewhere :huh:

[substitute]

Oh and also, I've no problem with people being recluses if that's what they want to do, but I don't think self-deception helps anyone really in their personal journey.

I reckon, if you're going to be a recluse in an ivory tower and have that attitude, then that's fine, go ahead and I bless you all the way, if that's what makes you happy and you're not harming anyone, I've no problem with it and I'll defend your right to do so against anyone who tries to pull you out into this mean old world.

But don't lie to yourself and don't be surprised when you come down from the tower to buy some eggs and find the rest of the world doesn't buy the idea that it's because you're some kind of superior being who can't relate to us because you're so wayyyy above us puny mortals and all that crud.

Just admit that it's because you're afraid. There's nothing wrong with being afraid, and you're so damn afraid you can't even admit you're afraid, cos you're afraid of that too. You're so afraid of it that even me saying you are, you're probably taking as an insult or an attack because you think it's so damn terrible to have feelings, you can't imagine how someone seeing that you do and saying so can be anything but an attack.

Dammit, Einstein was fucking smart, but he still had friends and related to people. Noel Coward and Oscar Wilde, Stephen Fry, Stephen Hawking and countless other extremely smart people have managed to have social lives and in fact be well loved by society.

Just y'know, because you've got this vested interest in believing it's all because you're so smart and superior, because you're afraid of admitting you're afraid, it's really a bit much to expect that the rest of the world is going to buy this flimsy idea that you can only buy with the power of denial.

And I thought INTJ's were supposed to be so self-aware! ;)

[Ilah]

I don't know if this is related to introversion or not but I will share my perspective on not revealing too much of myself.

For me it is a careful balancing act how much I reveal. I don't think of it so much in terms of being an introvert as being different. Not necessarily being a rare personality type, but having values, ideals, interest, etc. that are different from most people. I have political and religious view that are not exactly mainstream, I am into metaphyscial things, none of the music I listen to is on the radio, I rarely find anything I like on network TV, I like to read comics, I spend more money art and craft supplies than I do for clothing, I play D&D. Okay really nothing too shocking, yet it seems like every time one of these things comes up (unless I am with like minded people) I get a negative reaction. Sometimes it will be just a look or tone of voice. Sometimes a minor comment. Sometimes people will go on about and make me act like a freak or weirdo or worse. Sometimes people will not have a big reaction, but will treat me differnt afterward.

Now my social skills are not the great to start with. I really have to work at maintaining even a casual relationship, such as getting along with co-workers. I really feel like my best chance is to downplay some of my weirdness.

I do try for a balancing act now. I don't hide all of myself in, but I don't let it all out either. I will sometimes reveal small eccentric bits and if people don't react negatively, I might reveal more of myself.

On why some introverts lable extroverts as fake:

I used to think like that. I will give two examples. For these to work you have to change the definition of extrovert to someone who has good social skill or someone who is popular.

Having good people skills often involves a fair amount of white lies and emotional pretending. Things like pretending you love the birthday present you just got, even when you didn't, acting friendly to people you don't really like, complementing people when you are not sincere. I have found that many introverts - including myself - resent being pressured to engage in this "fake" behavior. Actually this is probably more of a T v. F issue than introverts v. extroverts.

Another issue is social conformity that seems to be more common in extroverts than introverts. I noticed this more in high school than my adult years. Their was a clique of popular girls who were so alike - same clothing style, same hair style, same make up style, like the same movies, liked the same music, had crushes on the same actors and singers - that there seemed to be a general fakeness about them. The overall impression was that you had to give up your own preferences to be one of them.

Ilah






That's interesting, because so much of the criticism that introverts level at extraverts is based on a perception that extraverts are 'fake' somehow...

I didn't mean anyway, getting over on other people (if I've got the phrase right, never heard it before so just guessing what it means from context). I just meant that if you're lonely because you've no intimacy or friendship with other people, then a way to solve that is to get OVER that fear that leads to the feeling that you NEED to self-preserve, and learn to actually SHARE yourself with another person. It doesn't help a person who feels lonely to tell them to go out and wear a mask cos then at least they can be with people, IMO that will just make them feel even worse when they find that doing that, they still feel lonely because they're not giving anyone anything to gel with.

I don't quite get what it is the dude, or you, or other introverts in your interpretation, actually want from 'people'. It's like you reserve the right to hold yourself back and not really give any more than you feel like giving, whilst also wanting other people to give of themselves to you whatever it is you want them to give, so you don't feel lonely, at your personal convenience...

I'm not judging, I'm just trying to understand... cos the way you put it and the way the OP puts it makes introverts look rather fake and selfish in their approach to other people (to me at least), and yet I know so many introverts and they're not like that, meaning I must've got my wires crossed somewhere :huh:

[nottaprettygal]

I just meant that if you're lonely because you've no intimacy or friendship with other people, then a way to solve that is to get OVER that fear that leads to the feeling that you NEED to self-preserve, and learn to actually SHARE yourself with another person. It doesn't help a person who feels lonely to tell them to go out and wear a mask cos then at least they can be with people, IMO that will just make them feel even worse when they find that doing that, they still feel lonely because they're not giving anyone anything to gel with.

I wouldn't advocate always wearing a mask because, like you said, that can make a person even more lonely and depressed. However, I think the idea of wearing the mask and then taking it off when you think you have found someone that you connect with is a good option (or when you feel comfortable).

I hope that I'm not blowing this mask bit out of proportion. My mask doesn't totally change who I am. It just makes me more apt to smile and carry on conversations and do activities that I wouldn't normally enjoy. This is what I do what social interaction is sort of forced upon me or when I'm meeting new people and trying to evaluate them (their intentions, motivations, etc.).

I don't quite get what it is the dude, or you, or other introverts in your interpretation, actually want from 'people'. It's like you reserve the right to hold yourself back and not really give any more than you feel like giving, whilst also wanting other people to give of themselves to you whatever it is you want them to give, so you don't feel lonely, at your personal convenience...

Well, I don't really relate to the dude in the OP, and I agree with several things that you said in your next post. However, I reserve the right to hold myself back, and to be honest, I don't want people to give of themselves to me. Most of the time, I wish they would leave me alone. I would suspect that a lot of introverts feel the same way. Mostly, we just want to be understood.

[substitute]

Okay that explains it a bit more clearly I guess, but surely you must see there's a dichotomy between wanting to be left alone and wanting to be understood... and how are the people you relate to going to know they relate to you and approach you if you're holding yourself back until you feel you relate to them? Surely as a method, it's a bit um, well, flawed? :huh:

I just can't help thinking these statements don't really gel with each other: you don't want people to give of themselves, yet you want them to give you their time and understanding; yet you want them to leave you alone; yet you want them to understand you... it's all a bit contradictory. It's a bit like saying you want people for your own purposes, and once they're not fulfilling those any more, you want them to go away. Can you see why that can come across as rather selfish?

[nottaprettygal]

Okay that explains it a bit more clearly I guess, but surely you must see there's a dichotomy between wanting to be left alone and wanting to be understood...

Right. I guess all it takes to make us not feel lonely is to be understood by one or two people. The rest can just leave us alone. :D

But then, of course, the trouble is in finding those people when we're so guarded in the first place.

. . . and how are the people you relate to going to know they relate to you and approach you if you're holding yourself back until you feel you relate to them? Surely as a method, it's a bit um, well, flawed? :huh:

Yeah. I thought you were going to ask this question. I started addressing it in my previous post, but I had trouble expressing it. It's definitely a flawed method, and it probably results in a lot of missed opportunities. However, for me, it seems better than the alternative of always being myself.

Also, for introverts that have good people reading skills, they may be able to almost instantaneously identify those that they can relate to and cautiously reveal a bit more of themselves to those people. I can spend 5 minutes listening to a group a people and determine who I would like to get to know better.

[Jack Flak]

I can spend 5 minutes listening to a group a people and determine who I would like to get to know better.
Naturally. Does it really take five minutes? A good hard look usually gets the job done. But I don't get to know anyone unless it's accidental.

[Jennifer]

... However, I think the idea of wearing the mask and then taking it off when you think you have found someone that you connect with is a good option (or when you feel comfortable).

I hope that I'm not blowing this mask bit out of proportion. My mask doesn't totally change who I am. It just makes me more apt to smile and carry on conversations and do activities that I wouldn't normally enjoy. This is what I do what social interaction is sort of forced upon me or when I'm meeting new people and trying to evaluate them (their intentions, motivations, etc.).

I agree with the concept of a mask. I don't think it's always a bad thing. It serves to enable social interaction and also protect ourselves from those who might abuse our openness. Mask is not necessarily equivalent to duplicity.

And honestly, very few people are "raw" anyway... and usually when they are, there's a tendency to violate others if they're just motivated by basic instincts. We all tailor our behavior a bit when we're in a group setting, if we care about others.

I only see masks as a problem when they're held onto out of fear when the opportunity exists (and it would be beneficial) to safely go deeper... or of course if they're completely fake and used just to lure in the unsuspecting for the benefit of the masked.

[nottaprettygal]

Naturally. Does it really take five minutes?

No. I just didn't want to seem too overconfident. I was wearing my modesty mask.

[Fuent]

No. I just didn't want to seem too overconfident. I was wearing my modesty mask.

Lol.

[Provoker]

Just admit that it's because you're afraid. There's nothing wrong with being afraid, and you're so damn afraid you can't even admit you're afraid, cos you're afraid of that too. You're so afraid of it that even me saying you are, you're probably taking as an insult or an attack because you think it's so damn terrible to have feelings, you can't imagine how someone seeing that you do and saying so can be anything but an attack.


I think there's some truth to this. My sister recently had a baby and while she was still in the hospital they were passing the baby around like a football and I was not comfortable holding it in front of my family and thus refused to at first. In this case, I was just against the idea of attention being on me and I can be very hasty and aggressive and I didn't want to hold the fragile/delicate newborn. I was also skeptical of the vibrations I was giving off. As adults we tend to intellectualize and intuit but babies just feel vibrations and I wasn't certain I would comfort it with positive vibes. This was exacerbated by the social tensions between my mom and dad in the waiting room (who are long seperated and hadn't seen eachother in a long time) as well as my grandma who tried to contradict me when I was just making small talk (reflection of poor judgement) she also snickered at my mom (something my mom didn't catch on to but I'm very astute in picking up on those haugty chuckles, afterall, I am a pioneer of the condescending chuckle). Setting that aside, this probably sounds terrible but I just thought the whole thing was rather staged and I'm not going to act and make those stupid faces for sustained periods of time in front of everyone (although I would go on to do it later when there were less people around). I do have emotions I suppose I'm just less likely to display them publicly and I'm more comfortable with being perceived as hardened. Having said that, I just finished my last exam for the summer courses I've been taking and I've opted to increase my extraversion by a few notches. I saw a buddy tonight and I'm playing hockey tomorrow night and going out for beers after. It was mentioned that my persective is highly selfish, and by looking at things under the optic I've presented people can be understood as merely having instrumental value. This is another dilemma I sometimes face. There is a lingering perception - primarily in my family though not only - that I only come around (descend from the ivory tower as substitute put it) when it suits me. In fact, most people see me as very self-absorbed and this is exacerbated by my lack of empathy due to the emotional numbness. Add to this the fact that I'm predominately surrounded by sensors (in my near abroad) which doesn't help. In effect, they will ramble about their dogs or bosses or whatever smalltalk and my brain immediate drifts off. Then if they ask a question about me I will go into a sililoquy and leave them so lost in abstraction that it makes me look like a horses ass. So I'm still struggling to find an equilibrium that is feasible when socializing. Well guys and gals, I appreciate the feedback given thus far and a few of you in particular have made some very valid points!

[Jasdevi]

Perharps you can observe what people say to make them popular? On the other hand, you could probably just be yourself.

[wildcat]

I have all of the characteristics of a human being: flesh, a beating heart, a proportional figure and a working brain although I have no single identifiable emotion. I grew up in a household where emotions are a sign of weakness. True, I have been known to lose control sometimes in a surge of aggression that resulted in me bottling someone but after a second I was back to my neutral temperament. I do not have a pang of conscience. I have read about it in books and even seen it in Hollywood movies but I do not know of such things from personal experience. The alleged 'prick of conscience' is something alien to me. Over the last few years I've spent time reading and studying a lot and developing my intellectual side. It would not be out of the ordinary for someone to call me 'genius' although I'm too modest to ever squeeze myself into the genius elevator with Einstein and Picasso already in there which is clearly going up. Suffice it to say that my 'uniqueness' has resulted in a certain level of isolationism - I have become rather reclusive over the last three years in particular. However, I have made an honest effort to fit in better via 'social camouflage'. To all you elitists, geniuses, eccentrics, or odd-balls: what do you do to camouflage your abilities when the situation calls for it? Like Nietzsche's Zarathustra, I've been up in the mountain in solitude for a really long time and I'd like to come down to the village to play. Zarathustra would like to become a man again...what do you guys do to get back in touch with the human side?
To camouflage an ability is to give it another name.

Do you find?
No.

The one who finds is the object.
The subject does nor find anything.
The subject is found.
By the object.

[nottaprettygal]

In fact, most people see me as very self-absorbed and this is exacerbated by my lack of empathy due to the emotional numbness. Add to this the fact that I'm predominately surrounded by sensors (in my near abroad) which doesn't help. In effect, they will ramble about their dogs or bosses or whatever smalltalk and my brain immediate drifts off. Then if they ask a question about me I will go into a sililoquy and leave them so lost in abstraction that it makes me look like a horses ass. So I'm still struggling to find an equilibrium that is feasible when socializing.

The one thing I'm curious about is what you hope to achieve when you are interacting in a casual social environment. Let's say someone asks you a question. When you leave them "so lost in abstraction" with your response, what do you get out of that?

It seems as if you're trying to maintain that elitist exterior at all times, and it's extremely off-putting. It's okay to be self-absorbed. I know that I am. But you're probably learning that being self-absorbed is detrimental when it comes to fulfilling needs that lie outside of yourself.

If you're as intelligent as you have led us to believe, then you'll modify your behavior. Don't worry, you're still being selfish at the same time because you are fulfilling the social need that you have. It's still all about you, bro. The only difference is that you're making it more bearable for others at the same time. Who knows. . . after faking it for a couple hours a week, you may actually develop some real empathy and some real interest in nonacademic pursuits.

[Ivy]

I am the very model of the intellectual genius
I've information peripheral, redundant, and extraneous
I know the greatest thinkers and I quote them every day and night
From Socrates to Feynman, in order of their MBTI type
Not very well acquainted, though, with matters purely sexual
I understand equations, but ladies seem to vex me all

okay I'm done. Bored! BORED!

[Samuel De Mazarin]

In a practical sense, you're only a genius if you produce something of extraordinary value... the production of that something of extraordinary value needs to be so mind-bogglingly beyond the ordinary mind that regular folks or even experts in the field would find it difficult to imagine how you did it. Also, geniuses don't typically go around announcing their genius, unless they have something spectacular to go with it.

Beyond that... the first thing I'd suggest to you, in order for you to come down the mountain you actually have to get off the mountaintop and stop thinking of yourself as a genius. In fact, stop thinking of yourself so much and start taking a real interest in what other people feel, think, and hope for (with yourself absent from the equation). People are less likely to speak to you on a really personal level if you approach them, even without mentioning it explicitly, with the thought in your mind that "I'm a genius"... it'll negatively color all your interactions with us non-geniuses.

In seeking to understand other people, not through books, but through direct interaction, you will probably start finding yourself understanding them a lot better. I repeat, it's necessary that you care. If you don't care, then fake it till you make it. There's a bonus in this approach to life: you'll understand yourself better too.

_________________

Edit: I just noticed that many people have anticipated some of what I'm saying. But this only shows that many of us feel similarly and it's probably a safe bet for you to assume that there's at least something to what we're saying.

[Provoker]

Beyond that... the first thing I'd suggest to you, in order for you to come down the mountain you actually have to get off the mountaintop and stop thinking of yourself as a genius. In fact, stop thinking of yourself so much and start taking a real interest in what other people feel, think, and hope for (with yourself absent from the equation). People are less likely to speak to you on a really personal level if you approach them, even without mentioning it explicitly, with the thought in your mind that "I'm a genius"... it'll negatively color all your interactions with us non-geniuses.

Maybe I just plugged the genius comment in there to see how much people would obsess over this fact to the exclusion of other things. The mind picks and chooses and in a given text certain things will be magnified while others are reduced to a footnote in one's mind. Incidentally, this lopsided selection and valuation is based on a host of factors - personality being one of them. To be sure, I even went so far as to make clear that I do not consider myself in the genius elevator. This comment was merely to contextualize my situation a little bit. But I admit, I would like to be in the genius elevator one day probably in the philosophy and political science fields. Actually, I have some manuscripts laying around the house that I intend to get published and I want to make some authentic contributions to the international relations literature. It surprises me that this one word (genius) has resulted in a backlash in this thread while no one has been open minded enough to ask what kind of a genius others may consider me if anything? After all, my genius could lay in impressionist art and no one would know due to not asking. Beyond this, you'll notice that the ENTPs and INTJs in particular have been the most open-minded and goal-oriented in this thread. I think this speaks volumes. Samuel De Mazarin, thanks for the feedback. Is that you in the avatar? You look like a cool dude. Egyptian?

[Samuel De Mazarin]

. . . . geniuses don't typically go around announcing their genius, unless they have something spectacular to go with it.

. . . . People are less likely to speak to you on a really personal level if you approach them, even without mentioning it explicitly, with the thought in your mind that "I'm a genius"... it'll negatively color all your interactions with us non-geniuses.



Maybe I just plugged the genius comment in there to see how much people would obsess over this fact to the exclusion of other things.

. . . . To be sure, I even went so far as to make clear that I do not consider myself in the genius elevator. This comment was merely to contextualize my situation a little bit.

. . . . It surprises me that this one word (genius) has resulted in a backlash in this thread while no one has been open minded enough to ask what kind of a genius others may consider me if anything?

. . . . Samuel De Mazarin, thanks for the feedback. Is that you in the avatar? You look like a cool dude. Egyptian?

In gratuitously providing my own pragmatic definition of what a genius is, I was surreptitiously (not even!) asking you to tell us what your field(s) is/are.

I'd love to hear some of your thoughts, or even read stuff you've written, though I realize that if its of above-average value, you might want to get it copyrighted first. :)

You may well be a genius.... but perhaps the backlash has taught you something about proclamations... even if you coyly disavow your genius status, even hinting at it is, in the secular world for sure, tantamount to calling yourself a healer! Either people get direct evidence of your abilities or they'll revile you for a deluded egotist...

As for me, well, thanks... I've certainly moved up in the world... I used to be the nerd, and now I'm cool and Egyptian! I've had Puerto Rican and Lebanese before... but this is too good... fyi, I'm Indian, a mix of Rajasthaani and Bengali ethnicities, if that means anything.

Looking forward to more posts. I'm curious to see how you interact with the forum members in the days/weeks following and what comes of it.

[Night]

You may well be a genius.... but perhaps the backlash has taught you something about proclamations... even if you coyly disavow your genius status, even hinting at it is, in the secular world for sure, tantamount to calling yourself a healer! Either people get direct evidence of your abilities or they'll revile you for a deluded egotist...


Most times, vast intelligence is fairly self-evident.

It's not something that commonly requires aggressive advertisement.

Those who advertise tend to have disingenuous subtext - either to their claim, or in what they are trying to sell you as a result of it.

[Samuel De Mazarin]

Most times, vast intelligence is fairly self-evident.

It's not something that commonly requires aggressive advertisement.

Those who advertise tend to have disingenuous subtext - either to their claim, or in what they are trying to sell you as a result of it.

When is it okay to speak casually of one's own achievements?

I found myself flinching when Michael Johnson was saying Phelps hadn't done anything to compare to his own achievement at the Atlanta games... and I often have to keep a check on my estimation of my own intellectual worth... sometimes I think I'm really smart, and then I read about what other people are doing in the world... like a high school student isolating bacteria which breaks down plastic faster than anything else we've ever seen... or a Thomas Pynchon novel...

[Night]

I found myself flinching when Michael Johnson was saying Phelps hadn't done anything to compare to his own achievement at the Atlanta games... and I often have to keep a check on my estimation of my own intellectual worth... sometimes I think I'm really smart, and then I read about what other people are doing in the world... like a high school student isolating bacteria which breaks down plastic faster than anything else we've ever seen... or a Thomas Pynchon novel...

I think we're in the same boat here.

To my mind, when one uses achievement as a way of superficially elevating social status and/or as an instrument to marginalize others is typically when we cringe. Most prefer a graceful champion.

True eminence is rare.

Understanding how to use it, even more so.

[Provoker]

Most times, vast intelligence is fairly self-evident.

It's not something that commonly requires aggressive advertisement.

I agree.

[Fuent]

Just try to meet as many people as you can and talk to them a bit. You'll naturally stray away from those you're not comfortable with. There's a lot of different people in this world man. You're bound to meet someone even if it takes a while. And that person might slowly warm up to you and become more accepting and you'll both be comfortable. Even if you don't, it's not like you're losing anything you know?

Maybe just time... But you'll also learn a bunch of different things.

[FallsPioneer]

Just be a good listener and make socializing interesting to you.

You illustrate yourself as near-emotionless...Why do you want to talk to people?